Does MU have a long wait list?

[GGGG]

agree 100%.  MU's acceptance rate is too high. US News has MU's Fall 2016 acceptance rate at 74%. That's way too high. I understand that unlike state and "elite" schools that most people who apply to MU are in the core of the admission profile but still, to move up on the rankings we need to be more selective. They should aim to be below around 50%.  This isn't like the 90's when MU was struggling to attract and retain students, closed East Hall and had to lower standards.  After the Final Four MU capped the entering class at 1800, why the increase?

The twin towers of admissions stupidity:  admissions rates and USN&WR rankings.

[Disco Hippie]

Thresholds most definitely matter. But thresholds based on quality academic criteria is what actually matters. Thresholds based on how many people ask to join your club don’t matter one bit.

Not to mention that Disco Hippie keeps advocating for a type of admissions process that is a wasteful use of time and money.

I agree with you Sultan.  You're right on the merits but most consumers of higher education, especially where I come from, care more about superficial metrics and the appearance of things than reality.  Your POV and that of the MU administration is how it SHOULD be but MU is not going to unilaterally succeed in changing the opinion of the average higher education consumer that rankings and acceptance rates don't matter and only outputs do.  Perhaps if other institutions took the same approach as MU, these opinions would change over time but I don't see that happening anytime soon because demand to get into the most prestigious schools continues to increase and schools worry about the hit to the reputation.  As I mentioned earlier, I was told directly by an MU admissions rep that they received significant push back on their approach the last couple of years and mostly not from snobs on the coasts either, so they had to make some adjustments and acknowledged they went too far in the other direction.

I am not at all advocating for MU to solicit applications from students likely to be denied just for the sake of lowering the acceptance rate and acknowledge that system is inefficient.  What I have advocated for strongly is for MU to increase the total number of "qualified" applicants significantly so they can make more admissions decisions based largely on non academic criteria.   It would be great for MU to have substantially more applicants than they could reasonably take, most of whom are very qualified, so they take other factors into consideration.  That's what the schools on their peer list in the PDF I attached routinely do, and I think MU is heading in that direction.

Warrior Chick is correct that Applications were way up this past cycle and they exceeded their enrollment goals considerably which is a positive step forward.  I'm just not sure that would have occurred without the pressure.

[warriorchick]

A club that let's everyone in isn't much of a club. If everyone knows the secret handshake it isn't a secret. Standards are important. Thresholds matter.

Our club doesn't let everyone in.  It just doesn't encourage people to request membership if they know they won't be voted in.

[GGGG]

I agree with you Sultan.  You're right on the merits but most consumers of higher education, especially where I come from, care more about superficial metrics and the appearance of things than reality.  Your POV and that of the MU administration is how it SHOULD be but MU is not going to unilaterally succeed in changing the opinion of the average higher education consumer that rankings and acceptance rates don't matter and only outputs do.  Perhaps if other institutions took the same approach as MU, these opinions would change over time but I don't see that happening anytime soon because demand to get into the most prestigious schools continues to increase and schools worry about the hit to the reputation.  As I mentioned earlier, I was told directly by an MU admissions rep that they received significant push back on their approach the last couple of years and mostly not from snobs on the coasts either, so they had to make some adjustments and acknowledged they went too far in the other direction.

I am not at all advocating for MU to solicit applications from students likely to be denied just for the sake of lowering the acceptance rate and acknowledge that system is inefficient.  What I have advocated for strongly is for MU to increase the total number of "qualified" applicants significantly so they can make more admissions decisions based largely on non academic criteria.   It would be great for MU to have substantially more applicants than they could reasonably take, most of whom are very qualified, so they take other factors into consideration.  That's what the schools on their peer list in the PDF I attached routinely do, and I think MU is heading in that direction.

Warrior Chick is correct that Applications were way up this past cycle and they exceeded their enrollment goals considerably which is a positive step forward.  I'm just not sure that would have occurred without the pressure.

Look, I know more about admissions marketing here than pretty much anyone else.  I have worked in university marketing for almost 20 years.  If Marquette is meeting its enrollment goals, both quantitatively and qualitatively, there is ZERO reason to worry about its acceptance rate. 

Believe me, I know what drives enrollment.  And this isn't a decade ago where rankings and exclusivity were at their peak.  A targeted, analytical approach is the best way to build your freshman class - not only number-wise, but academics, diversity, etc.  Ramping up costs, by casting a wider net for the sole reason so you get more people to reject, is inefficient both in the long and short term.

Marquette is doing the right thing.  The proof is in the numbers.

[Billy Hoyle]

The twin towers of admissions stupidity:  admissions rates and USN&WR rankings.

who said anything about US News Rankings. I only referenced them to cite my course for admissions rates or our peer schools. Plus, the top students look at rankings and admissions rates.  They want a more exclusive institution. It doesn't help for MU to be considered a "safety school."

Admissions rates matter too when it comes to the institution's reputation when it comes to hiring graduates outside of the normal "market."

[GGGG]

who said anything about US News Rankings. I only referenced them to cite my course for admissions rates or our peer schools.

You did.  You mentioned "moving up in the rankings."

Plus, the top students look at rankings and admissions rates. 

Not as much as you think.  Definitely not as much as they used to.

They want a more exclusive institution.

Why?

It doesn't help for MU to be considered a "safety school."

Anyone who considers MU that is ignorant.

Admissions rates matter too when it comes to the institution's reputation when it comes to hiring graduates outside of the normal "market."

LOL....absolutely not.  Corporations do not hire people based on the admissions rates of the school.  That's just silly.  They hire people based on the quality of the student on the back end.  Which is smart.

[theBabyDavid]

A bit dated but with interesting insights

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevecohen/2012/09/29/the-three-biggest-lies-in-college-admission/3/#2a2e047a2d24

[Herman Cain]

Thanks for Posting Process!  I read this article on my commute the day it was published.  I think your gut about this being mostly an issue for Top Tier schools is correct.   MU is somewhat different than a lot of schools in that all of their colleges are direct entry instead of applying to the University as whole first and then applying to an individual college after Freshman or Sophomore year like most schools.  I don't know for sure but my hunch is that MU's more competitive programs like Nursing and PT and maybe engineering probably do have wait lists, but generally speaking MU just isn't the type of institution where students are going to be desperate to get off of a wait list to the same extent as their Northeastern brethren like a Gtown or BC for example.   MU is more akin to let's say Providence where one of the students profiled in the article ended up enrolling.

Like you, I'm both originally from and currently reside in the Northeast (NYC area) so I'm very familiar with what high school seniors and their parents are like around April 15th when the exclusive schools announce their decisions, how it's the talk of the various towns, etc, but MU isn't in the northeast and for the most part doesn't cater to that constituency.  They have have rolling admissions and generally let students know within 2 or 3 weeks  after they apply which is not something most schools in the Northeast do.  They let everyone wait until April to maintain this air of exclusivity and mystery which I personally think is not really fair so I actually like MU's rolling admissions approach.

That said, I definitely share you concerns about MU's extremely high acceptance rate and there's no doubt in my mind that will be a turn off to many students in this region.  Thankfully you and I are not the only ones with that POV, and I can assure you the MU administration has received substantial negative feedback on their high acceptance rate not only from alums, but from current and prospective students as well so they're not radically changing their approach but definitely pivoting on that.  You can't have an 89% acceptance rate as they did last year, and 84% the year prior and not have the brand take a hit. 

If you look at the attached PDF from MU's OIRA website, Figures 1 and 2 on page 3 are really telling.  All of these other schools have almost double the number of applicants, a much lower acceptance rate, and still have a yield that's several percentage points higher than ours.   To say that we don't stack up well to the peer institutions MU administrators hand picked to be compared with is a massive understatement, so hopefully they'll make some adjustments to rectify this.

This is tremendous . Thanks for sharing. I hope MU administration takes this to heart.

The acceptance rate is killing MU. I had a prospect recently that I had been working on the family many years relative to  MU. The kid loved MU because of our basketball team. Got them out to see the school even. They were enthusiastic to apply. When the kid applied the turnaround from admissions with an acceptance was fast which was exciting to them but when they saw the percentages of admissions stats the family began to question if this was the right school. These were not rich elitists either, rather they were middle class people who wanted to get value for the big bucks tuition they would have to shell out. I think that is what MU management is missing here. They are debasing the perceived value in the market place and creating a self fulfilling scenario where the people they want selecting out. The kid ended up going to Fordham.  I know there are those who say we are getting our spots filled and that may be the case but long term the current strategy is fools gold.

[theBabyDavid]

According to this Marquette had more applications than Madison and a lower acceptance rate.

www.acceptancerate.com/wisconsin

[GGGG]

According to this Marquette had more applications than Madison and a lower acceptance rate.

www.acceptancerate.com/wisconsin

Behold Mount Mary College!!  Obviously the most EXCLUSIVE college in Wisconsin!!!  Everyone should want to go there!!!

[ZiggysFryBoy]

if this strategy by MU is keeping douche bag New Yorkers and New Englanders out, then keep it up.

[warriorchick]

if this strategy by MU is keeping douche bag New Yorkers and New Englanders out, then keep it up.

Pardon my cultural appropriation.

[Disco Hippie]

Look, I know more about admissions marketing here than pretty much anyone else.  I have worked in university marketing for almost 20 years.  If Marquette is meeting its enrollment goals, both quantitatively and qualitatively, there is ZERO reason to worry about its acceptance rate. 

Believe me, I know what drives enrollment.  And this isn't a decade ago where rankings and exclusivity were at their peak.  A targeted, analytical approach is the best way to build your freshman class - not only number-wise, but academics, diversity, etc.  Ramping up costs, by casting a wider net for the sole reason so you get more people to reject, is inefficient both in the long and short term.

Marquette is doing the right thing.  The proof is in the numbers.

Fair enough.....I don't work in higher education marketing/admissions/enrollment and have no idea.  If the only goal is to make sure the institution has enough students, I'm sure you're right but this purely analytical approach to enrollment doesn't seem to take into account how that might affect an instutution's reputation.  There's no way to measure that that I'm aware of.  If that's the best way, then why aren't the other school's on MU's handpicked peer list doing the same thing?

Again refer to Figures 1 & 2 on Page 3 of the attached PDF

[warriorchick]

Behold Mount Mary College!!  Obviously the most EXCLUSIVE college in Wisconsin!!!  Everyone should want to go there!!!

They probably con a bunch of dudes into applying to drive down their acceptance rate.

[theBabyDavid]

Our club doesn't let everyone in.  It just doesn't encourage people to request membership if they know they won't be voted in.

How then does one explain the strong correlation between the most prestigious colleges and universities and strikingly low admission rates?

Ivy and NESCAC acceptance rates are pointedly low. Not surprisingly, they are also regarded as the very best colleges in North America.

Acceptance rate is universally acknowledged as a crucial barometer of selectivity. This is fact. To argue otherwise is absurd.

Exclusivity is defined by selectivity.   

[warriorchick]

How then does one explain the strong correlation between the most prestigious colleges and universities and strikingly low admission rates?

Ivy and NESCAC acceptance rates are pointedly low. Not surprisingly, they are also regarded as the very best colleges in North America.

Acceptance rate is universally acknowledged as a crucial barometer of selectivity. This is fact. To argue otherwise is absurd.

Exclusivity is defined by selectivity.

That is true, as you said, of only the most prestigious colleges.  Marquette will never be in that group, and does not want to be.

[swoopem]

That is true, as you said, of only the most prestigious colleges.  Marquette will never be in that group, and does not want to be.

Disagree. FFP was the most prestigious of all summer school programs. Bring back FFP and watch our rankings soar (both academic and basketball)

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Ranking are a funny thing, I think people try to generalize school rankings too much rather than looking into individual programs.

I think I was puzzled by Marquette's ranking for about a day before realizing well if I get into the program I want to, the overall school ranking doesn't mean a damn thing, and if it really bothered me that much, I just would have went to Illinois or Northwestern instead.

[Disco Hippie]

That is true, as you said, of only the most prestigious colleges.  Marquette will never be in that group, and does not want to be.

Yes this is true, but it's true because there's no realistic way for a >$600M endowment institution to compete with schools that have $10B+ endowments.  The top top schools' endowments exceed $30B in some cases.  Fine.

But MU absolutely aspires to move up in the rankings and compete with the peer schools they've identified.  The strategic plan says the goal is to "Advance Marquette as a highly ranked destination university, renowned for academic rigor, high-impact educational experiences, innovation in teaching and learning, and achievement of its community of scholars.  It's all right there below.

http://www.marquette.edu/strategic-planning/theme-academic-excellence.php

How on earth do they realistically expect to achieve that with the acceptance rate where it currently is (89%) for Fall 2017?  What's interesting if you look at this is virtually every other stat that schools are typically measured by is on the left panel except their acceptance rate so they're omitting it on purpose.  What I'm not sure of if they're omitting it because they're genuinely embarrassed, or because they just resent the fact that it's even relevant and are trying to make statement and thumb their nose at the higher education establishment?   

It's one thing for MU to have a slightly higher acceptance rate than some other schools which is fine, but if you look at the graph on the PDF I posted earlier, to say MU is an outlier in this area is a massive massive understatement.  I don't get it!  How could our current Provost, who comes from a much more prestigious institution that Marquette not recognize this???????

[4everwarriors]

Yeah butt, sources in Zilber and such, hey?

[GGGG]

Fair enough.....I don't work in higher education marketing/admissions/enrollment and have no idea.  If the only goal is to make sure the institution has enough students, I'm sure you're right but this purely analytical approach to enrollment doesn't seem to take into account how that might affect an instutution's reputation.  There's no way to measure that that I'm aware of.  If that's the best way, then why aren't the other school's on MU's handpicked peer list doing the same thing?

Again refer to Figures 1 & 2 on Page 3 of the attached PDF

Because higher education is slow to accept change.

[GGGG]

How then does one explain the strong correlation between the most prestigious colleges and universities and strikingly low admission rates?

Ivy and NESCAC acceptance rates are pointedly low. Not surprisingly, they are also regarded as the very best colleges in North America.

Acceptance rate is universally acknowledged as a crucial barometer of selectivity. This is fact. To argue otherwise is absurd.

Exclusivity is defined by selectivity.   

You’re mixing up cause and effect.

[BobWildLoyalist]

Bring back FFP. No waitlist needed

MU discontinuing FFP in the Pilarz era was a travesty. I am a proud FFP'er! I have a number of family members who went through the program as well, everyone has come out better for it. The program forges life long friendships and allows an incoming student an academic experience they wouldnt otherwise have.

BRING BACK FFP! 

[Disco Hippie]

Because higher education is slow to accept change.

Translation: 

Any school that doesn’t need to resort to similar tactics isn’t going to. 

[GGGG]

Translation: 

Any school that doesn’t need to resort to similar tactics isn’t going to. 

Right.  They are going to be inefficient and use resources unwisely.