Ill. School district could lose $6M due to transgender locker room access

[mu03eng]

Side note, not trying to be inflammatory, but what makes gender identification vs biological identification any different than any other physical attribute that a person rejects as not their identification?  Take race, we do a lot of identification around race for various reasons, which is as of now determined by genetics and biology, but what if people start identifying as another race?  Is that different than someone identifying as a different gender?  If so why?  If the same, should all physical identification be eliminated as a society because it no longer matters and only what you believe yourself to be matters?

[Lighthouse 84]

When I was in high school, and even today, I'd much rather have been looking at naked women than naked men.  Even my own is gross to look at and I'm much more comfortable with looking at the female body.  Shouldn't I have been allowed to be comfortable?  Honestly, where we are headed seems to be unisex bathrooms and locker rooms. 


If the student goes through gender reassignment and gets his what nots removed, the student can use the girl's locker room.  Until then, Judge Lighthouse says the school district's compromise wins out.

[Pakuni]

This situation introduces an interesting legal and societal question regarding the engagement with transgender specifically, but identity generally.

You've got a biological male that identifies as female changing in the female locker room with other females.  The trans person is uncomfortable changing in the male locker and she would be uncomfortable changing in a private area of the female locker room.  You could also have a biological female that is uncomfortable with a biological male in the locker room with her and she would be uncomfortable changing in a private area of the locker room.  Who's "discomfort" takes precedence over the other?

It is similar to rights in a legal setting.  I have natural rights as identified by the constitution, etc. however when my rights come into conflict with another person's rights they must be adjudicated and a "win" and "loser" determined.  So in the case of this situation, someone is going to potentially be "uncomfortable" how do we determine who that is.

That's a great question.
As the law stands  - or, at least how the federal government is interpreting the law, because this ultimately will be decided by the courts - the student is a girl who has the same right to use the girls facilities at school as any other female student. The school district admits this to some extent, allowing her to use the girl's bathroom, play on the girls' teams in athletics, use a female name in official records, etc. The only issue is the locker room.

[jesmu84]

This situation introduces an interesting legal and societal question regarding the engagement with transgender specifically, but identity generally.

You've got a biological male that identifies as female changing in the female locker room with other females.  The trans person is uncomfortable changing in the male locker and she would be uncomfortable changing in a private area of the female locker room.  You could also have a biological female that is uncomfortable with a biological male in the locker room with her and she would be uncomfortable changing in a private area of the locker room.  Who's "discomfort" takes precedence over the other?

It is similar to rights in a legal setting.  I have natural rights as identified by the constitution, etc. however when my rights come into conflict with another person's rights they must be adjudicated and a "win" and "loser" determined.  So in the case of this situation, someone is going to potentially be "uncomfortable" how do we determine who that is.

You said it much better than I did. Thanks.

[Lighthouse 84]

That's a great question.
As the law stands  - or, at least how the federal government is interpreting the law, because this ultimately will be decided by the courts - the student is a girl who has the same right to use the girls facilities at school as any other female student. The school district admits this to some extent, allowing her to use the girl's bathroom, play on the girls' teams in athletics, use a female name in official records, etc. The only issue is the locker room.

Regarding the ability to play on the girls' teams in athletics, suppose the male who identifies as a female is Henry Ellenson tall and as good a hoops player.  How is this fair for opposing teams?  How does the state's high school athletic association, or the NCAA for that matter, handle it?  Should the team be allowed to win a championship or just be allowed to compete with no post season?

[MerrittsMustache]

That's a great question.
As the law stands  - or, at least how the federal government is interpreting the law, because this ultimately will be decided by the courts - the student is a girl who has the same right to use the girls facilities at school as any other female student. The school district admits this to some extent, allowing her to use the girl's bathroom, play on the girls' teams in athletics, use a female name in official records, etc. The only issue is the locker room.

IMO, she should be grateful that the district allows her all of those opportunities despite being a biological male. It also sounds like she is widely accepted by the student body. If the district wants to draw the line at the locker room and gives her a reasonable compromise (which they did), she should accept it. She might not be all that happy about it but there are a lot of school districts who would not give her the opportunities that she has been given at this school.

[GGGG]

Regarding the ability to play on the girls' teams in athletics, suppose the male who identifies as a female is Henry Ellenson tall and as good a hoops player.  How is this fair for opposing teams?  How does the state's high school athletic association, or the NCAA for that matter, handle it?  Should the team be allowed to win a championship or just be allowed to compete with no post season?

On the list of things that are "unfair" about high school and college athletics, having transgender males on female teams ranks about #347 on the list.  I don't this has ever been a problem anywhere.

[jesmu84]

On the list of things that are "unfair" about high school and college athletics, having transgender males on female teams ranks about #347 on the list.  I don't this has ever been a problem anywhere.

I suppose we could go all "slippery slope" and start talking about families of athletic males wanting scholarships to universities where they know they won't get them on male athletic teams but could get them on female teams. So they start playing female sports.

[GGGG]

IMO, she should be grateful that the district allows her all of those opportunities despite being a biological male. It also sounds like she is widely accepted by the student body. If the district wants to draw the line at the locker room and gives her a reasonable compromise (which they did), she should accept it. She might not be all that happy about it but there are a lot of school districts who would not give her the opportunities that she has been given at this school.

I don't think it is acceptable for people to say in a civil rights situation, "hey that should be good enough."

The (admittedly hyperbolic) equivalent is "Hey we let you blacks eat at the lunch counter and go to our integrated schools, and there are plenty of nice houses in that neighborhood over there, so just stay out of this one OK?"

[Pakuni]

Regarding the ability to play on the girls' teams in athletics, suppose the male who identifies as a female is Henry Ellenson tall and as good a hoops player.  How is this fair for opposing teams?  How does the state's high school athletic association, or the NCAA for that matter, handle it?  Should the team be allowed to win a championship or just be allowed to compete with no post season?

The Illinois High School Association and NCAA already have rules for dealing with this.

http://www.ihsa.org/documents/equity/equity-transgender_policy_revised.pdf

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf

[Eldon]

My argument isn't moving. I've never said it was about discomfort.
What you call his "discomfort," the law calls her "legal right."
And, again, you're ignoring the fact that most students support this person. It's the adults that are making a stink.

Why your insistence on referring to her with a male pronoun? Is this simply about your belief that transgender people aren't real? You're completely entitled to your opinion on that, of course. But if your argument here is that this student is and should be treated as a boy, that's pretty much a non-starter on discussing this further. There's an interesting discussion to be had as to what amounts to reasonable/equitable treatment and access, but there's no point in having that discussion if your argument boils down to genitalia.

1) What if there were an anonymous poll and the vast majority of the girls expressed that they were, in fact, uncomfortable changing in front of someone with male body.  Would this alter your opinion?

2) Aren't many of the girls legally minors?  If so, the parents' concern cannot simply brushed aside as bigotry.

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't think it is acceptable for people to say in a civil rights situation, "hey that should be good enough."

The (admittedly hyperbolic) equivalent is "Hey we let you blacks eat at the lunch counter and go to our integrated schools, and there are plenty of nice houses in that neighborhood over there, so just stay out of this one OK?"

That's not an apt comparison because those people are actually black and not simply people who identify as being black.

[Pakuni]

1) What if there were an anonymous poll and the vast majority of the girls expressed that they were, in fact, uncomfortable changing in front of someone with male body.  Would this alter your opinion?

No.

2) Aren't many of the girls legally minors?  If so, the parents' concern cannot simply brushed aside as bigotry.

Why? Explain further.

[GGGG]

That's not an apt comparison because those people are actually black and not simply people who identify as being black.

It is an apt comparison because the school is saying they are of a certain gender in every instance, except when they are in the locker rooms.  Either they are of that gender...or they aren't. 

[MerrittsMustache]

It is an apt comparison because the school is saying they are of a certain gender in every instance, except when they are in the locker rooms.  Either they are of that gender...or they aren't.

So you would feel better if the school dismissed what she identifies as and told her she was a male. Period.

[Lighthouse 84]

The Illinois High School Association and NCAA already have rules for dealing with this.

http://www.ihsa.org/documents/equity/equity-transgender_policy_revised.pdf

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf

Looks like the IHSA has a policy, but not a rule.  They make the final ruling on student participation.  What would they rule in such a case?

Even if they undergo the cross hormone treatment, you can't teach height. 

[GGGG]

So you would feel better if the school dismissed what she identifies as and told her she was a male. Period.

No.  I never said that.

[Pakuni]

Looks like the IHSA has a policy, but not a rule.  They make the final ruling on student participation.  What would they rule in such a case?

Even if they undergo the cross hormone treatment, you can't teach height.

You're asking me to tell you how the IHSA would rule on your hypothetical of a super athletic 6'10" transgender student? How would I possibly know that?
All I can tell you is that IHSA policy allows transgender students to participate in athletics as the gender with which they identify, which is the case in this particular instance.

[mr.MUskie]

Side note, not trying to be inflammatory, but what makes gender identification vs biological identification any different than any other physical attribute that a person rejects as not their identification?  Take race, we do a lot of identification around race for various reasons, which is as of now determined by genetics and biology, but what if people start identifying as another race?  Is that different than someone identifying as a different gender?  If so why?  If the same, should all physical identification be eliminated as a society because it no longer matters and only what you believe yourself to be matters?

I believe myself to be the President of the United States. Someone tell that Obama guy to get out of my Oval Office.

[mr.MUskie]

Transgender student locker room debate goes to Fox News

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20151104/news/151109574/

[willie warrior]

The harm is pure discomfort. The trans student experiences discomfort by having to use a private facility. The female students in the locker room experience discomfort by having to change in front of someone who is a biological male.

Are you criticizing the females for feeling discomfort? It sounds like you are saying to them "ah, suck it up girls, it's not that bad. Your feelings are irrational."

Yeah--make all uncomfortable--share the pain--that is the solution.

[keefe]

It's not a matter of the students feeling uncomfortable or threatened with a transgender student changing in front of them. It's a matter of girls feeling uncomfortable changing in front of a male peer.

Precisely.

Why not have open changing rooms at Nordstroms?

This madness forgets about the actual women whose expectation of privacy is being disregarded.

As a father I would not be pleased with males sharing a locker room with my then teen aged daughter. My daughter is an intelligent, sophisticated, open, liberal minded young women but I rather doubt she would care to share a locker room with men at the university gym. One may argue, 'but they think they are women' but the fact is that they are not.

[MerrittsMustache]

There's obviously no simple, clear-cut solution to this issue and it's basically uncharted territory for schools. The school appeared to be very accommodating to this student while keeping in mind the privacy of other students. She didn't like changing down the hallway from her teammates, which is understandable and the changing curtain seemed like a fair compromise but she wasn't happy about being singled out in that way. I wonder if, in retrospect, the school could have placed changing curtains in both locker rooms for all students. They wouldn't be singling someone out and all students would have the same guidelines. Would the transgender student have accepted the compromise in that scenario?

[Pakuni]

There's obviously no simple, clear-cut solution to this issue and it's basically uncharted territory for schools. The school appeared to be very accommodating to this student while keeping in mind the privacy of other students. She didn't like changing down the hallway from her teammates, which is understandable and the changing curtain seemed like a fair compromise but she wasn't happy about being singled out in that way. I wonder if, in retrospect, the school could have placed changing curtains in both locker rooms for all students. They wouldn't be singling someone out and all students would have the same guidelines. Would the transgender student have accepted the compromise in that scenario?

This is actually not correct.
According to the Dept. of Education's ruling, she was willing to change behind a private curtain or a stall in the locker room, but the district refused and required her to change in a separate room down the hall.

[MerrittsMustache]

This is actually not correct.
According to the Dept. of Education's ruling, she was willing to change behind a private curtain or a stall in the locker room, but the district refused and required her to change in a separate room down the hall.

According to the WLS story, she was using a separate room to change but was unhappy about it and the school's solution was a privacy curtain EDIT: but that was after she complained about being forced to change separately.

Cates said the district drew the line when it came to the student's request for full access to the female locker room.

"She had to go down long hallway to the other bathroom, she noticed she was singled out, it didn't make her feel part of the team," Cates said.

The student, whose identity has not been made public, turned to the American Civil Liberties Union for help and filed a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights.

The district came up with a solution that it strongly believes is not discrimination -- asking the transgender student to use privacy curtains. Department of Education officials said without full access, the district has violated the student's civil rights.

Either way, do you think a "privacy curtains for all!" solution would have satisfied?