Number 34

[TallTitan34]

Now that Tony Smith has graduated I'd say that he is a pretty good canidate for having his jersey retired.  Which 34 do you think most deserves to be retired and why?

Note:  At least retiring the jersey of three people with the same number frees up the available numbers for the current players!

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

1. Smith
2. Diener

I honestly don't believe McIlvaine warrants having his jersey retired.

[MUCrew]

Speaking of retiring numbers...I don't know if this has been discussed already or not, but do you think it would be a good idea to have those numbers retired forever?  i.e. nobody else can wear that number?  I know George Thompson, a little while back, made some noise about Hayward wearing his number...almost rightfully so.  What do you think?

[TallTitan34]

1. Smith
2. Diener

I honestly don't believe McIlvaine warrants having his jersey retired.

Good point PRN.  I added that as an option.  My apoligies to the 10 people who have voted!

[bilsu]

Do team records matter?
Tony Smith
16-13 NIT
10-18
13-15
15-14 NIT
Total 54-60
Diener
26-7 NCAA
27-6 NCAA
19-12 NIT
19-12 NIT
Total 81-37
MacIllvanie
11-18
16-13
20-8  NCAA
24-9   NCAA
Total 71-48
In my mind it is hard to retire a jersey for a player whose teams have an overall losing record and never made the NCAA's

[TallTitan34]

I can't fault a player who didn't have help around him.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Do team records matter?
Tony Smith
16-13 NIT
10-18
13-15
15-14 NIT
Total 54-60
Diener
26-7 NCAA
27-6 NCAA
19-12 NIT
19-12 NIT
Total 81-37
MacIllvanie
11-18
16-13
20-8  NCAA
24-9   NCAA
Total 71-48
In my mind it is hard to retire a jersey for a player whose teams have an overall losing record and never made the NCAA's

McIlvaine was arguably the third best player on his own team.

[rocky_warrior]

Speaking of retiring numbers...I don't know if this has been discussed already or not, but do you think it would be a good idea to have those numbers retired forever?  i.e. nobody else can wear that number?  I know George Thompson, a little while back, made some noise about Hayward wearing his number...almost rightfully so.  What do you think?

Well, I know we've got new members since this was discussed, but it's also one of the most viewed threads on MUScoop.  Opinions vary greatly...
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=296.0

[Nukem2]

Actually, the poll is wrong as to saying stop retiring numbers.  MU has stated for quite some time now that it retires jerseys(as is the case with most schools).  As such no numbers will be retired in the future. 

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

Tony Smith was an outstanding performer for Marquette and is right below the legend category in MU history but for me it's Travis Diener if #34 gets raised only once. The kid was unbelievable. I think being the all-time leading scorer in a program like Marquette's holds a lot of water and we all know the record would be his if not for a tackling dummy.

[TallTitan34]

Actually, the poll is wrong as to saying stop retiring numbers.  MU has stated for quite some time now that it retires jerseys(as is the case with most schools).  As such no numbers will be retired in the future. 

I changed it to jersey for you Nuke.

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

Travis for more or less taking the program on his back in the two years between the Wade years and the Big Three years. My favorite moment was it looked like he was nearly paralyzed after a player fell on him in Charlotte and like three days later came back to drop like 25 points on Depaul.

Diener.


Also, no retiring numbers permanently. Because in Basketball, due to the officials calling fouls, only a limited quantity of numbers are available.
0-1-2-3-4-5
10-11-12-13-14-15
20-21-22-23-24-25
30-31-32-33-34-35
40-41-42-43-44-45
50-51-52-53-54-55

Retire too many jerseys for good and you'll soon either be fresh out, have to unretire jerseys, or cling to past players achievements only on some sense of nostalgia about the players of old who played in "the good olde days".

[mosarsour]

Do team records matter?
Tony Smith
16-13 NIT
10-18
13-15
15-14 NIT
Total 54-60
Diener
26-7 NCAA
27-6 NCAA
19-12 NIT
19-12 NIT
Total 81-37
MacIllvanie
11-18
16-13
20-8  NCAA
24-9   NCAA
Total 71-48
In my mind it is hard to retire a jersey for a player whose teams have an overall losing record and never made the NCAA's

And Tony Smith had to carry those teams on his back. Travis had D Wade, Novak, Jackson, etc.  In my mind it's Tony Smith all the way.

[Chili]

I think to many people don't remember Tony on this board. He only scored 3 points less than Travis in 6 less games, Also Tony was an All American, something Travis never got.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I think to many people don't remember Tony on this board. He only scored 3 points less than Travis in 6 less games, Also Tony was an All American, something Travis never got.

Both Travis and Tony are legends, but if I were choosing up teams, Tony Smith would be the choice. He was PHENOMENAL as a senior. Almost 24 a night!

[ecompt]

I remember he had an asbolutely unbelievable game in Madison. The Badgers did everything they could to stop him, but I think he still had around 40 points. Tough call. I loved Travis as a player.

[CTWarrior]

If you retire McIlvaine's number, you'd have to retire Key and Miller, who were his contemporaries and better players for their careers while at MU.  Diener and Smith probably deserve the honor.  It's tough to say, because I think a lot of guys who haven't been honored probably had better MU careers than someone like Doc Rivers. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Doc Rivers' number should not have been retired, but he had the best speech of the recent number retirees and he's probably been the single best representative of Marquette for many years.

[MU_4_Life]

To me a jersey should only be retired for a 'special' player.  Someone who has either a great career at MU or after MU.  Smith had one very good seaon, but lead his team to a 15-14 record.  Diener is more deserving than Smith in my opinion but I think we should stop retiring jersey's for a while, its gotten a little out of hand.

[mosarsour]

MU_4_Life have you ever even seen Tony Smith play when he was at MU? He was hands down the best player on the floor most nights.  If it were not for him, I'd hate to see what MU would have been during the mid 80's.  No disrespect to Travis Diener (who finds himself in the same predicament in Indiana that he had in Orlando). I loved watching Travis play. He had more heart than anyone on any MU roster in the last 30 years, but Tony Smith was a stud!

[ChicosBailBonds]

I went to school with Tony as did NY Warrior and some others.  The guy could flat out play ball and had to play out of position on some fairly poor teams with a poor coach.

If it wasn't for Smith, I think we might have won 15 games total in that era...already one of the worst eras every in our history.

The Wisconsin game where he scored 40+ was incredible.  He didn't that several times if I remember.  His senior year was incredible.

[tower912]

The best move I ever saw Tony Smith make was at the Rec center of all places, in a pick up game after the season with some Milwaukee Bucks.    Dunked over the Terry Cummings (IIRC) twice.   This was at the end of his Freshman year.   I knew then that he was the real deal.     Tony Smith took a team that would have won 5 games otherwise to the NIT.    Travis was a great player and a great competitor, I was and am a huge fan,  but no team that he was the leader of ever went further, though he had more talent around him. 

[mosarsour]

If it wasn't for Smith, I think we might have won 15 games total in that era...already one of the worst eras every in our history.

Ahhhh...Those Bob Dukiet years....ughhhh!

[MU_4_Life]

MU_4_Life have you ever even seen Tony Smith play when he was at MU? He was hands down the best player on the floor most nights.  If it were not for him, I'd hate to see what MU would have been during the mid 80's.  No disrespect to Travis Diener (who finds himself in the same predicament in Indiana that he had in Orlando). I loved watching Travis play. He had more heart than anyone on any MU roster in the last 30 years, but Tony Smith was a stud!

I was at MU at the same time as Tony Smith so I did see him play many times.  Im not saying he wasnt a good or even great player.  I just dont think he deserves to have his jersey retired.  I dont even know if I would want to see Diener's jersey retired, its still a little to soon for me.  I guess my point is that I think MU should be a little more selective about jersey retirements than they have gotten lately.

[77ncaachamps]

All three...and have them all honored at the same time.

Diener was the heart and soul of three of his MU teams.

Smith, though on horrible teams, was the shining star for the program and went on to have a somewhat productive NBA career. Other than Doc Rivers, he was the only MU player in the League during the 90s. But he was joined by...

McIlvaine who also had a spotty NBA career but was a stalwart in the middle. He didn't dominate the blocks like Damon did, but I think he altered game plans nightly for the teams that MU faced in during his career.

All three hold top spots in the MU record books and have been MU's ambassadors in the NBA.

All are worthy in their own right.

[bilsu]

MacIllvanie was not the third best player on his team. All you have to do is look at pro careers. While not a star in the NBA Mac was in the pros for several years. Mac was more of a defensive player than an offensive player. I do not believe Miller or Key played a single minute in the pros. Tony Miller was a very good passer and had a lot of assists for two reasons. First he could not shoot and knew it, which is one of the differences between Miller and James. James can't shoot either, but that does not stop him from shooting. Second he was surrounded by players who could score. Diener was averaging close to 24 points a game as a senior before he hurt his foot. He was virtually unstopable those first few games.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

MacIllvanie was not the third best player on his team. All you have to do is look at pro careers. While not a star in the NBA Mac was in the pros for several years. Mac was more of a defensive player than an offensive player. I do not believe Miller or Key played a single minute in the pros. Tony Miller was a very good passer and had a lot of assists for two reasons. First he could not shoot and knew it, which is one of the differences between Miller and James. James can't shoot either, but that does not stop him from shooting. Second he was surrounded by players who could score. Diener was averaging close to 24 points a game as a senior before he hurt his foot. He was virtually unstopable those first few games.

This is just idiotic. You're saying that because McIlvaine has a spotty pro career due soley to his size and a ridiculous contract thrown at him because of like a 4 game stretch at the end of one season that he was a great college player? That makes zero sense.

What do pro careers have to do with how an individual did in college? Are you saying Karl Malone must have been a better college player than Christian Laettner because he had a better pro career? How about Bo Ellis? Was McIlvaine a better college player than Ellis? I believe Jim played longer in the NBA. If you insist on using that as a barometer, you'll see that Tony Smith played 9 years in the NBA. Diener will not. I loved Diener, but he was not on Smith's level.

Where in the world do you get an average of 24 ppg for Diener? Are you insane? And was far from unstoppable. DePaul found a way to stop him in Rosemont as he could barely get the ball over half court and was forcing shots left and right. He was never unstoppable -- though Smith appeared to be at times.

I believe they both should be honored, but Smith was (in my mind) clearly the better player.

[AlumKCof93]

I could be convinced that both Smith and Diener could have their jerseys retired.  Diener was such a gamer and so critical to the final four run.  MU didn't have the same success under Smith, but in my opinion, he's one of the top 5 players MU's had in the past 20 years.  His senior year was incredible.

I don't think McIllvaine deserves it.  He was a good, solid player with an incredible knack for blocking shots, but I don't think his career measures up.  I'd put Key before Mac.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I could be convinced that both Smith and Diener could have their jerseys retired.  Diener was such a gamer and so critical to the final four run.  MU didn't have the same success under Smith, but in my opinion, he's one of the top 5 players MU's had in the past 20 years.  His senior year was incredible.

I don't think McIllvaine deserves it.  He was a good, solid player with an incredible knack for blocking shots, but I don't think his career measures up.  I'd put Key before Mac.

Agreed. Actually, other than his remarkable shot blocking, his game bore a striking resemblance to Ousmane Barro -- same loping gait, same stone hands and similar coordination. 

[tonyreeder]

None of the three.  Retire the elites.  I think they've already been stretching with Earl Tatum especially. Macilvaine is by far the least deserving.  I loved Tony Smith and he was there when I was but those teams stunk and if you were to ask a college basketball fan who Tony Smith is-- they'd say "who?"  He'd be a stretch.  Diener's a tough call and he was a very very good player but not great.    This has been beaten to death on this board before but I'd absolutely retire Tony Miller's number before Diener's. (and I don't think Tony Miller's number should be retired either).   If anyone, it should be Jim Chones.

[MR.HAYWARD]

1st team AA and graduate or no retired.

[mosarsour]

1st team AA and graduate or no retired.

...and Captain Incoherent chimes in again!

[NCMUFan]

Jim MacIlvaine had 214 starts in the NBA
Tony Smith had 87,
and Travis Diener - Zippo.

[🏀]

Jim MacIlvaine had 214 starts in the NBA
Tony Smith had 87,
and Travis Diener - Zippo.

McIlvaine (note the spelling) also was known for the following:
1.) Being a poster boy for Shaq
2.) One of the worst free-agent signings ever, in all sports
3.) The reason why the Seattle SuperSonics team broke apart while they were good.

But sure, why not retire a guys jersey at Marquette when he had such an illustrious pro career.

[77ncaachamps]

None of the three.  Retire the elites.  I think they've already been stretching with Earl Tatum especially. Macilvaine is by far the least deserving.  I loved Tony Smith and he was there when I was but those teams stunk and if you were to ask a college basketball fan who Tony Smith is-- they'd say "who?"  He'd be a stretch.  Diener's a tough call and he was a very very good player but not great.    This has been beaten to death on this board before but I'd absolutely retire Tony Miller's number before Diener's. (and I don't think Tony Miller's number should be retired either).   If anyone, it should be Jim Chones.

That sounds fine and dandy, but I'm curious as to your definition of "elite".

I agree, Miller should NOT have his number retired.

But there are many fans today who would say, "Who?" when you mention the names of Maurice Lucas, Butch Lee, Jim Chones, Don Kojis, Dean Meminger, even Chris Crawford, Jim McIlvaine, Travis Diener, and Steve Novak!

[NCMUFan]

When Shaq was in his prime, who wasn't run over by him.
I mean a free agent signing and a team breakup, how can you pin that on a player, that is primarily management.  But if you want to pull out a microscope on someone, no one can stop you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

None of the three.  Retire the elites.  I think they've already been stretching with Earl Tatum especially. Macilvaine is by far the least deserving.  I loved Tony Smith and he was there when I was but those teams stunk and if you were to ask a college basketball fan who Tony Smith is-- they'd say "who?"  He'd be a stretch.  Diener's a tough call and he was a very very good player but not great.    This has been beaten to death on this board before but I'd absolutely retire Tony Miller's number before Diener's. (and I don't think Tony Miller's number should be retired either).   If anyone, it should be Jim Chones.

It isn't about asking a college basketball fan who "Tony Smith" is, it's about asking Marquette.

There are many players around the country that have had their numbers retired that many fans outside of that area don't know who they are.

Chones is probably next.