Mr. Basketball question - politics, etc - Vander Blue

[ChicosBailBonds]

So it is my understanding that Vander Blue did not win this award this year, but instead T.J. Bray of Catholic Memorial won.

In comments that Vander made in the post game press conference of the State Final loss, he certainly felt that his decommitment from uw-Madison to Marquette played a role.

For the high school hoops experts out there in Wisconsin, what's the deal?  Was this a case of major politics in play among the voters due to the Marquette - uw situation?  Or did he just have a slightly less than expected year and Bray deserved it?


I believe Bray is going to Princeton....smart kid.  How much do academics, etc play into the award or is it supposed to be basketball only?

Thanks

--------------------

Winners of Mr. Basketball Wisconsin

2010  TJ Bray - Princeton
2009  Jeronne Maymon - Marquette / Tennessee
2008 DeMarcus Phillips - N/A
2007 (tie) Keaton Nankivil - uwMadison
2007 (tie) Scott Christopherson - Marquette / Iowa State
2006 Andy Polka - Loyola
2005 Wesley Matthews - Marquette

1990 Damon Key - Marquette

[muhoops1]

Here is the deal...the redneck, townies in Wisconsin hate Marquette.  I mean hate them.  I live up state and my kids have to hear about the thuggery that is MU basketball.  A nice way of saying we have too many African Americans at MU.  Now VB is just some urban punk that shaves crap into his head.  He no longer has the skill set or talent that make him worthy to strap on a Badger uniform.  Period.  End of story.

[MUfan12]

For the high school hoops experts out there in Wisconsin, what's the deal?  Was this a case of major politics in play among the voters due to the Marquette - uw situation?  Or did he just have a slightly less than expected year and Bray deserved it?

I'd say its 2/3 the former and 1/3 the latter. Vander didn't have as good of a year as last year, but is still the best Senior in the state without question. Bray is a nice player, but not in Vander's league.

The politics of it play a huge role, and the fact that he spurned almighty UW for MU cost him the award. I can just about guarantee that. The WBCA is overwhelmingly made up of UW homers.

Not sure how accurate it is, but I've heard from a couple of people that some outstate people were actively politicking against Vander because of the decommitment.

[MauraDay]

How did far did Bray's team go in the tournament?

[Mayor McCheese]

Its over who had the best season in the state of Wisconsin.

Watching games of:
Vander Blue
TJ Bray
Evan Anderson
Ben Mills
Josh Gasser

TJ Bray deserved this award, and rightfully got it.  The kid can ball, Princeton got themselves a very nice player.  Does Vander Blue have a better skill set?  Sure, but this award isn't who has the best skill set, it is who had the best season.  Bray has better stats, Bray's team (Catholic Memorial) won state.

If this was about politics, then a kid from a private school wouldn't have won the title.  Many of the homers here in the state dislike the privates in basketball, feel they win too many titles, which is the reason why they are switching to a 5 division plan next year.

What it comes down to is TJ Bray deserved it and got it.

[GOMU1104]

I could be wrong, but I believe Catholic Memorial beat Arrowhead twice, as well as Menomonee Falls.

[Ari Gold]

DeMarcus Phillips Is joining his fellow Mr. Basketball winner Scott Christopherson at Iowa State

Hard to see "politics" as being hugely involved, MU has landed 3/7 Mr. Basketballs in 6 years, even if 2 have left the school. UW has only landed one (Who's only an 8.1ppg 4.7rpg player btw)

[MUfan12]

Hard to see "politics" as being hugely involved, MU has landed 3/7 Mr. Basketballs in 6 years, even if 2 have left the school. UW has only landed one (Who's only an 8.1ppg 4.7rpg player btw)

There hasn't been a situation like this either. A lot of venom out there.

Like I said, not totally political. But it definitely played a role.

[MUEng92]

How did far did Bray's team go in the tournament?

Catholic Memorial won the Div 2 championship. But they announced the award between the Div 2 and Div 1 championship games so that didn't play a factor in it.

[4everwarriors]

You want the truth? I'll give you the truth. Bray, hands down, was the best senior in the state this season. Took the ball and literally ran with it. This dude can flat out play and Princeton is getting one sweet playa.
I don't, for one New York minute, think "politics" entered into the choice. T.J. deserved the honor.
Now, having said that, Blue is naturally more gifted on the court. And, I'm a huge Blue fan. I'm on record as stating that Blue starts for MU by the start of the BE conference season. Hopefully, he just learned that he has to bring it all the time. Disappointed that he looked for excuses, rather than a gut check. BTW, wish there would be a spot on the team for Bray as well.

[GGGG]

I'd say its 2/3 the former and 1/3 the latter. Vander didn't have as good of a year as last year, but is still the best Senior in the state without question. Bray is a nice player, but not in Vander's league.

Vander is the better prospect.  Bray had the better year.  He deserved it.

[MU1984]

Do they always announced the Mr. Basketball award inbetween D1 and D2 games?  The coach obviously thought Vander's play was hurt due to Bray receiving this award.

Also, a comment on the HS coaches in the state...it is my understanding that this relationship with MU is improving due to Buzz's openness in the summer basketball camps that they help out at.  I could be off-base, but I have heard from a reliable source that Buzz gives unlimited time for Q&A for the HS coaches that attend.  For example, I heard he spoke with these coaches for roughly six hours one evening.  I was taken aback by this (again, I could be wrong), but I'm pretty sure this was the case.

Note:  I am not turning this into a Buzz > Crean or "Crean is a tool" discussion.  Just simply stating that the hate towards MU relative to UW is improving although will never be completely balanced (with is fine, understandable, and frankly the way it should be).

[GGGG]

I could be wrong, but I believe Catholic Memorial beat Arrowhead twice, as well as Menomonee Falls.

Yes.  It could very well be argued that Catholic Memorial was the best team in the state this year.  Furthermore, they came out of a ridiculously tough sectional.  Even though it was Division 2, it honestly could have been more difficult than Arrowhead's D1 sectional.

[MUfan12]

MU1984 brings up a good point, but it's not about Buzz or MU in this case. There is a LOT of venom towards Vander because of the decommittment. This is a top 50 player FROM MADISON who committed to UW. If he had chosen MU straight away, it would have been different. But he spurned Bo and UW. And there's some serious hero worship among WI HS coaches with Bo.

To completely write off politics in this case is naive. Bray certainly had a great year, and by all accounts is a great kid and a very good ballplayer. But he would he be able to hack it at a high-major level? I'm not convinced. Outside of Arrowhead, he played in a very mediocre conference. The difference in the numbers from what I can find is not big at all (2 ppg), and Vander played against much better competition. The main difference I can find is that CMH won state, but the vote was held before then.

It's an interesting debate, but to suggest that politics played no role is ridiculous.

[Mayor McCheese]

You want the truth? I'll give you the truth. Bray, hands down, was the best senior in the state this season. Took the ball and literally ran with it. This dude can flat out play and Princeton is getting one sweet playa.
I don't, for one New York minute, think "politics" entered into the choice. T.J. deserved the honor.
Now, having said that, Blue is naturally more gifted on the court. And, I'm a huge Blue fan. I'm on record as stating that Blue starts for MU by the start of the BE conference season. Hopefully, he just learned that he has to bring it all the time. Disappointed that he looked for excuses, rather than a gut check. BTW, wish there would be a spot on the team for Bray as well.

If Bray doesn't blow out his knee early in his hs career... you might be seeing him at a top D1 or high mid-major.

[Mayor McCheese]

MU1984 brings up a good point, but it's not about Buzz or MU in this case. There is a LOT of venom towards Vander because of the decommittment. This is a top 50 player FROM MADISON who committed to UW. If he had chosen MU straight away, it would have been different. But he spurned Bo and UW. And there's some serious hero worship among WI HS coaches with Bo.

To completely write off politics in this case is naive. Bray certainly had a great year, and by all accounts is a great kid and a very good ballplayer. But he would he be able to hack it at a high-major level? I'm not convinced. Outside of Arrowhead, he played in a very mediocre conference. The difference in the numbers from what I can find is not big at all (2 ppg), and Vander played against much better competition. The main difference I can find is that CMH won state, but the vote was held before then.

It's an interesting debate, but to suggest that politics played no role is ridiculous.

So besides the Div 1 and Div 2 champs... a mediocre conference, I can take that... although I would argue the fact that the Div 1 and Div 2 champs were in the conference, tough to be mediocre

There non-conf schedule was extremely tough for Bray to prove himself.  Playing

East Troy - ranked in D2 all year

Dominican - ranked in D3 all year, and really the state final in D3 is the sectional final between Dominican and St. Cats

Hamilton - Although they lost Cerroni, still a tough game

Wisconsin Lutheran - Flavien Davis (talked about for Mr. Basketball) previous D2 champs who were suspected to repeat, until Catholic Memorial beat them AGAIN in the tournament

Men. Falls - Tokoto... need I say more?

Brookfield Academy - Troy Huff... another outstanding player and team



This was all before the tournament where they saw Wisc. Lutheran again, Whitefish Bay, and Northwestern on their way to the state title

Bray deserved it, he was the best player this year

I would argue that Vander did not play better competition. Actually... I am pretty sure that Bray's competition was tougher, and without a blown out knee, he might be a PG for a high major team.

If it was politics... why wouldn't they have given the award to Josh Gasser?... he had a great year and is going to Madison.

[bma725]

Guys, the WBCA committee that votes on Mr. Basketball is a 9 person group, that includes some guys that really like MU(including Travis Diener's uncle).  Politics did not play as much of a role as you'd think, if they cared that much they'd have given it to Gasser or Anderson.  The reality is Vander just didn't have a great season this year.  He's the most talented player in the state, but he didn't play like it for much of the season.

[beaconwarrior]

Where was J.P. Tokoto in all these talks? Isn't he a superstar?

[Mayor McCheese]

Where was J.P. Tokoto in all these talks? Isn't he a superstar?

He'll get it as a senior... his time is coming.

[sailwi]

Probably a case of Brey had a good year and there is a lot of dislike towards MU especially out state, if its close advantage to the non-MU person.  I am a transplant and have lived in Milwaukee for 30 years and still don't understand the dislike by many in the state for MU who are not UW alum.  Bo has the HS coaches in his corner which is likely a result of hard work on his part but there is definitely a bias against MU by that group, listen to the HS basketball show some weekend on WSSP and you will get the gist.

It sounds like Buzz is making inroads and mending some fences that need mending but at the present MU is definitely a distant #2 to UW in the eyes of the HS coaches and that likely had some influence in the voting.

[MUfan12]

Mayor- Good points on the non-con schedule. But the Classic 8 was a 2.5 team conference this year. Everyone else was mediocre to bad. The Great 8 was tougher w/ Madison East, Middleton, Verona, and Beloit Memorial who was decent as well.

BMA- Thanks for the clarification on the voting. Had a hard time finding that info, and one site I saw said that each member got a vote. Knowing the coaches in this state, you can see why I figured politics played more of a role in it.

[GGGG]

MU1984 brings up a good point, but it's not about Buzz or MU in this case. There is a LOT of venom towards Vander because of the decommittment. This is a top 50 player FROM MADISON who committed to UW. If he had chosen MU straight away, it would have been different. But he spurned Bo and UW. And there's some serious hero worship among WI HS coaches with Bo.

To completely write off politics in this case is naive. Bray certainly had a great year, and by all accounts is a great kid and a very good ballplayer. But he would he be able to hack it at a high-major level? I'm not convinced. Outside of Arrowhead, he played in a very mediocre conference. The difference in the numbers from what I can find is not big at all (2 ppg), and Vander played against much better competition. The main difference I can find is that CMH won state, but the vote was held before then.

It's an interesting debate, but to suggest that politics played no role is ridiculous.

I think this perceived anti-MU venom by the small towns "out state" is really strange.  I have been all over Wisconsin and it is something that I have never witnessed.  If anything, most Wisconsinites really don't care all that much about Marquette.

[LovinCrowder]

While I'm sure it is nice to be known as Mr Basketball, the bottom line is that we have Vander, UW lost him, and neither one got Brey.   It will be interesting to follow both of their careers - only time will tell who will turn out to be the better player, although I think we all know the answer to that question.  It will now be a case of not what they did in high school, but what they will achieve in college.  Vander will make us proud - he shouldn't be disappointed that he didn't win - because good things will happen to him at Marquette.

[Silky]

Many things
Vander didn't win the player of the year in his conference
Bray had a better year
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.
.
.
.
HS Coaches out state really hate MU, but Buzz is improving things
.
.
.
Outstate fans really, really hate MU and the look of the MU players if you catch my drift

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thank you for all the responses.  Much appreciated.

[MarquetteDano]

I think this perceived anti-MU venom by the small towns "out state" is really strange.  I have been all over Wisconsin and it is something that I have never witnessed.  If anything, most Wisconsinites really don't care all that much about Marquette.

I find this strange as well.  I don't live in state anymore so maybe it has changed.  A lot of you have lived in WI your whole lives but I feel most of the MU venom is in the SE Wisconsin or Madison areas.  I used to travel all around the state (Appleton, Merrill, Tomah, Hudson, etc.) and never felt much animosity when I would ask for the game to be put on.  To Sultan's point, if anything they would be watching with curiousity at Marquette, because 90% of them would never think to watch an MU game.

Now in Madison or SE Wisconsin... whole different story.  Much more "haters" in those regions.  It would be interesting if you could do a poll by WI region on this (much like how ESPN does those state by state polls).

[shiloh26]

I think this perceived anti-MU venom by the small towns "out state" is really strange.  I have been all over Wisconsin and it is something that I have never witnessed.  If anything, most Wisconsinites really don't care all that much about Marquette.

I think you are mostly right.  Its not so much anti-Marquette feeling so much as it is this state's love affair with UW everything, which necessarily pisses all of us off.  I've experienced lots of MU hate, but I've experienced more MU-indifference because they'd rather root for them tough, scrappy, solid fundamentals, well coached (read: white) Badgers.  It's easy to confuse the two because they both get us riled up. 

[MUfan12]

I think you are mostly right.  Its not so much anti-Marquette feeling so much as it is this state's love affair with UW everything, which necessarily pisses all of us off.  I've experienced lots of MU hate, but I've experienced more MU-indifference because they'd rather root for them tough, scrappy, solid fundamentals, well coached (read: white) Badgers.  It's easy to confuse the two because they both get us riled up. 

I can agree with this. But I would also add that among a lot of basketball coaches in the rest of the state, they hate MU. Some damage from TC, but mostly this unwavering loyalty to all things Bo Ryan.

[77ncaachamps]

Winners of Mr. Basketball Wisconsin

2010  TJ Bray - Princeton
2009  Jeronne Maymon - Marquette / Tennessee
2008 DeMarcus Phillips - N/A
2007 (tie) Keaton Nankivil - uwMadison
2007 (tie) Scott Christopherson - Marquette / Iowa State
2006 Andy Polka - Loyola
2005 Wesley Matthews - Marquette

Is it me or does it appear that Marquette always get the recipient every other year?

Can you say TOKOTO everyone?

(Yes...he's actually a class of 2012)

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I'm from Appleton, and I can tell you the venom is real. It's bizarre and it wouldn't be very fruitful to try to put a reason or logic behind much of it. When I went home from Marquette, I would literally tell people that I was "going to school in Milwaukee" because if I said Marquette, I would get looks or even comments. The school is perceived as a hotbed of wealthy elitists (can you say projection from Badger alums?).

[Mayor McCheese]

Is it me or does it appear that Marquette always get the recipient every other year?

Can you say TOKOTO everyone?

(Yes...he's actually a class of 2012)

Would make sense if Tokoto wins it next year... which not many Juniors do.

You also have to remember that in Tokoto's class there is Junior Lomomba (Mad. Memorial kid) and according to some individuals they have become good friends through basketball. 

Can Buzz snatch both?

[LON]

I'm from Appleton, and I can tell you the venom is real. It's bizarre and it wouldn't be very fruitful to try to put a reason or logic behind much of it. When I went home from Marquette, I would literally tell people that I was "going to school in Milwaukee" because if I said Marquette, I would get looks or even comments. The school is perceived as a hotbed of wealthy elitists (can you say projection from Badger alums?).

Same thing for me, from the same area.

[GGGG]

I think you are mostly right.  Its not so much anti-Marquette feeling so much as it is this state's love affair with UW everything, which necessarily pisses all of us off.  I've experienced lots of MU hate, but I've experienced more MU-indifference because they'd rather root for them tough, scrappy, solid fundamentals, well coached (read: white) Badgers.  It's easy to confuse the two because they both get us riled up. 

You had me until you through race in there.  I really doubt most fans of UW hoops care about whether or not their team starts white guys or not.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Is it me or does it appear that Marquette always get the recipient every other year?

Can you say TOKOTO everyone?

(Yes...he's actually a class of 2012)

Unfortunately that list is inclusive of the only ones we have ever received.  Note the huge gap in the 1990's...just one player.

[shiloh26]

You had me until you through race in there.  I really doubt most fans of UW hoops care about whether or not their team starts white guys or not.

Fair enough.  I don't think they think they care either... but its in the background.  If someone tells me they like the team from Wisconsin that "plays tough defense", is "fundamentally sound", and "hustles", I know which team they are talking about, even though just based on those descriptions, it could be about MU or UW.  Those terms are always used to describe teams like UW, Cornell this year, BYU, and now UNI... so I agree they don't care up front, but its going on somewhere in there, at least to the extent that they don't realize that Marquette any given year would fulfill those descriptions better than UW, and these people would still like UW better.  

[bma725]

Unfortunately that list is inclusive of the only ones we have ever received.  Note the huge gap in the 1990's...just one player.

Actually there were two, you missed Pieper in 1993.  

Having said that, yes there was a gap, but I don't know that you would really call it unfortunate to miss a lot of those guys in the 1990s.  That was a down decade for Wisconsin high school hoops in terms of producing a lot of high caliber talent, only 4 winners really ended up being quality high major players...and we got 2 of them.  Not only that, but one of the ones we missed on was Calvin Rayford, who would have been a back up to Tony Miller the entire time he was here...so not really a great loss.

[GGGG]

Actually there were two, you missed Pieper in 1993.  

Having said that, yes there was a gap, but I don't know that you would really call it unfortunate to miss a lot of those guys in the 1990s.  That was a down decade for Wisconsin high school hoops in terms of producing a lot of high caliber talent, only 4 winners really ended up being quality high major players...and we got 2 of them.  Not only that, but one of the ones we missed on was Calvin Rayford, who would have been a back up to Tony Miller the entire time he was here...so not really a great loss.

And he ended up backing up Jacque Vaughn his entire time at KU.

[NersEllenson]

Actually there were two, you missed Pieper in 1993.  

Having said that, yes there was a gap, but I don't know that you would really call it unfortunate to miss a lot of those guys in the 1990s.  That was a down decade for Wisconsin high school hoops in terms of producing a lot of high caliber talent, only 4 winners really ended up being quality high major players...and we got 2 of them.  Not only that, but one of the ones we missed on was Calvin Rayford, who would have been a back up to Tony Miller the entire time he was here...so not really a great loss.

I believe Rayford's teammate, Silas Mills, won the award 1 year, correct?  He wasn't eligible to qualify as I recall?

[GGGG]

I believe Rayford's teammate, Silas Mills, won the award 1 year, correct?  He wasn't eligible to qualify as I recall?

You are mistaken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Mr._Basketball_Award