Comment About Winter Games And What Is A "Sport"

[Pakuni]

If a Judge has to tell you who won, it is not a sport, it is an exhibition.  

I'm more convinced of this after watching Jamie Anderson win the Gold Medal is Snowboarding Slope Style.  (FYI - this is a "sport" that did not exist a few years ago and is new to the Olympics this year.)  It could be the 31st best run or the gold medal winning run and it all looks the same.  

So your inability to judge the techniques employed and skills displayed are what determines what is and isn't a sport.

It's a silly argument, regardless.
If you want to think that auto racing, darts and golf are more legitimately "sports" than boxing and figure skating, because it's easier for you to tell who won, have at it.

[Pakuni]

Is Ballet a sport?  They also test their physical limits.  How about Opera?  They test the physical limits of the human voice.

Would you be in favor or countries sending teams to perform Swan Lake or Le Boehme and having Judges declare a winner and giving them Olympic medals?

I've never seen a ballet match, or an opera tournament ... though they sound quite fascinating.
I would suggest that competition is an inherent part of the equation, since the Olympics Games are, by defintion, competitions.

A large part of baseball involves judgment by officials (balls/strikes, fair/foul/ out/safe). Does that make it less of a sport?

[MerrittsMustache]

A large part of baseball involves judgment by officials (balls/strikes, fair/foul/ out/safe). Does that make it less of a sport?

Two umpires could see the same pitch, one could call it a ball and the other a strike. I'll give you that one. However, fair/foul and out/safe are black and white calls. If a ball lands 6" fair but the umpire didn't like the batter's technique, he's not going to call it foul.

There are judgment calls made throughout nearly all sporting events but the outcome isn't decided simply by people watching the players and then making a judgment on who won and who lost.

[Pakuni]

Completely agree with the OP.  These new "sports" really dilute the true sports.

That's what the gander pulling fans said when baseball came along.

[Pakuni]

There are judgment calls made throughout nearly all sporting events but the outcome isn't decided simply by people watching the players and then making a judgment on who won and who lost.

1. I think the outcome of "sports" is far more dependent on judgment calls than you care to admit. An entire basketball game can be turned on a single call. Ask Tim Donaghy how judging can influence the result of an NBA game.
2. When it's done correctly and honestly, judging isn't just "simply watching and deciding who wins." In fact, it's never just simply watching and deciding who wins.

[Tugg Speedman]

So your inability to judge the techniques employed and skills displayed are what determines what is and isn't a sport.

It's a silly argument, regardless.
If you want to think that auto racing, darts and golf are more legitimately "sports" than boxing and figure skating, because it's easier for you to tell who won, have at it.

You conveniently left off the next paragraph of my original comment.

And it is not only me, but the announcers and competitors, who are supposed to know what is going on, are just as surprised judging from their reactions.  They have no idea what they are looking at and have to wait for a judge to tell them what the score is and they act shocked when they get the results, either way.

I've never seen a ballet match, or an opera tournament ... though they sound quite fascinating.
I would suggest that competition is an inherent part of the equation, since the Olympics Games are, by defintion, competitions.

My oldest daughter is an Opera singer and has competed in Opera Tournaments.  UWM actually hosts one every year.  

Do we need to add "Pakuni awareness" to the definition of a sport?

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Now before you twist what I'm trying to do let me try it this way... Ballroom dancing is an Olympic sport.  So why not Opera or Ballet?  I'm trying to ask what is the difference?  

Explain the difference between figure skating and ballet.  Why is one sport and the other not?

[Tugg Speedman]

Two umpires could see the same pitch, one could call it a ball and the other a strike. I'll give you that one. However, fair/foul and out/safe are black and white calls. If a ball lands 6" fair but the umpire didn't like the batter's technique, he's not going to call it foul.

There are judgment calls made throughout nearly all sporting events but the outcome isn't decided simply by people watching the players and then making a judgment on who won and who lost.

This!

Having referees/umpires to enforce the rules is not the same as having judges decide who won.  Huge difference.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chess and Checkers....Hungry Hungry Hippo....

[MerrittsMustache]

1. I think the outcome of "sports" is far more dependent on judgment calls than you care to admit. An entire basketball game can be turned on a single call. Ask Tim Donaghy how judging can influence the result of an NBA game.
2. When it's done correctly and honestly, judging isn't just "simply watching and deciding who wins." In fact, it's never just simply watching and deciding who wins.

Donaghy didn't affect the outcome of games. He affected the over/under.

[Galway Eagle]

So breaking one's jaw makes it a sport?  If a ballet dancer blows out a knee, does that make you think ballet dancing is a sport?

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Saying slope-style snowboarding or gymnastics is not a sport should not be confused with saying the participants of those sports/exhibitions do not possess amazing athletic abilities.  They are amazing athletes but so are ballet dancers.  But as their sports are constituted, they are not really sports.  They are exhibitions where a winner is (arbitrarily?) decide by a panel of judges and not an objective measure like a clock, scoreboard or tape measure.

Boxing was more a sport 100 years ago when a "round" was a knockdown and you had 1 minute to recover.  Matches would go 80 or 100 rounds until someone could not answer the bell.  Today it is an exhibition to see who can land the first decent punch so the referee can stop the fight.

So, yes boxing is a borderline sport and getting closer and closer to professional wrestling everyday.  At least professional wrestling admits they are an exhibition and not a sport.

Spoken like a guy who has a beer gut and has never taken a punch in his life let alone trained for a fight before.  But I'll keep it in mind that next year for my professional debut I'm training 3 times a day and eating a restricted diet for something that is essentially acting and won't actually hurt because it's just like professional wrestling.  Hey maybe I can just take a bunch of steroids and make it look like it hurts, I should probably let my opponent know that in advanced though.  Or maybe you want to make your professional boxing debut and let me know how it goes?

[Galway Eagle]

Is Ballet a sport?  They also test their physical limits.  How about Opera?  They test the physical limits of the human voice.

Would you be in favor or countries sending teams to perform Swan Lake or Le Boehme and having Judges declare a winner and giving them Olympic medals?

Ballet is a dance opera is singing.  When I say physical limits I mean running as fast as you can, taking a hit (not necessarily a punch) and being able to get up, having to think of a defensive strategy (judging by your opinion of boxing you wouldn't recognize one if your life depended on it), etc.  Not worrying about a broken toe or tearing your vocal chords. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'd like to participate in this thread, but Curling is on right now and the athletic prowess the sweepers are showing is exquisite.

[Galway Eagle]

Bowl 12 games in a day and tell me it doesnt test physical limits. Just to clarify I never said boxing wasnt a sport, I agree it is and its a sport I would never ever attempt. I was just complaining about the Olympic boxing judging. Never made sense to me.

Haha I do suppose I haven't played that many in a row.  But how long does it take to test your physical limits in bowling vs a sport like tennis even is more of what I was getting at.  I know olympic scoring is tough to explain and it's next to impossible for you to get if you've never boxed competitively. 

[Benny B]

I've been saying this for years... though I've used "athletic competition" to distinguish "sports" from sports.  My standard is a bit different, though the concept is the same:  A sport must be an athletic competition whose winner can be objectively determined.  That doesn't mean that you have to win objectively or even fairly, for that matter.  Boxing is a sport because you can objectively win by knocking the other guy out; as an example, if any one of us went up against Mike Tyson and paid off all the judges and referee, every one of us (except perhaps Bagpiper) is still going to lose that match.



However....

A more primitive way to distinguish between sports and non-sports is whether beer or pot is more likely to be consumed while competing or will make the game more interesting for spectators:

Beer consumed by spectators: Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc.
Beer consumed by competitors: Bowling, Curling, Midget Tossing = SPORTS

Pot consumed by competitors: Snowboarding, Slopestyle, Drum Circles, etc.
Pot consumed by spectators: Figure Skating, Gymnastics, Diving, Poker = NOT A SPORT

The only exception to this rule is pole vaulting, which is indeed a sport despite the fact that the highest competitor typically wins.

[wadesworld]

I'd like to participate in this thread, but Curling is on right now and the athletic prowess the sweepers are showing is exquisite.

I actually laughed at a post by Chicos!

[Pakuni]

I've been saying this for years... though I've used "athletic competition" to distinguish "sports" from sports.  My standard is a bit different, though the concept is the same:  A sport must be an athletic competition whose winner can be objectively determined.  That doesn't mean that you have to win objectively or even fairly, for that matter.  Boxing is a sport because you can objectively win by knocking the other guy out; as an example, if any one of us went up against Mike Tyson and paid off all the judges and referee, every one of us (except perhaps Bagpiper) is still going to lose that match.



However....

A more primitive way to distinguish between sports and non-sports is whether beer or pot is more likely to be consumed while competing or will make the game more interesting for spectators:

Beer consumed by spectators: Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc.
Beer consumed by competitors: Bowling, Curling, Midget Tossing = SPORTS

Pot consumed by competitors: Snowboarding, Slopestyle, Drum Circles, etc. Basketball, Football
Pot consumed by spectators: Figure Skating, Gymnastics, Diving, Poker = NOT A SPORT

The only exception to this rule is pole vaulting, which is indeed a sport despite the fact that the highest competitor typically wins.

FTFY

[Pakuni]

My oldest daughter is an Opera singer and has competed in Opera Tournaments.  UWM actually hosts one every year.  

For kids, right?
I wasn't speaking of scholastic activities here/].

Now before you twist what I'm trying to do let me try it this way... Ballroom dancing is an Olympic sport.  So why not Opera or Ballet?  I'm trying to ask what is the difference?  

Explain the difference between figure skating and ballet.  Why is one sport and the other not?

Well, one difference would be that ballroom dancing isn't an Olympic sport (though there's been an unsuccessful push to make it one) and figure skating is an Olympic sport.

[Tugg Speedman]

Spoken like a guy who has a beer gut and has never taken a punch in his life let alone trained for a fight before.  But I'll keep it in mind that next year for my professional debut I'm training 3 times a day and eating a restricted diet for something that is essentially acting and won't actually hurt because it's just like professional wrestling.  Hey maybe I can just take a bunch of steroids and make it look like it hurts, I should probably let my opponent know that in advanced though.  Or maybe you want to make your professional boxing debut and let me know how it goes?

You're again mistaking athletes with definition of sports.  Boxers are incredible athletes but that has no bearing on the current makeup of professional boxing and weather it is a sport or exhibition.  Figure skaters and gymnasts are also incredible athletes but the way they compete is not a sport either.

Amateur boxing is a little more objective.  Thy have a scoring system for punches landed.   That makes it more of a sport.

[Tugg Speedman]

Ballet is a dance opera is singing.  When I say physical limits I mean running as fast as you can, taking a hit (not necessarily a punch) and being able to get up, having to think of a defensive strategy (judging by your opinion of boxing you wouldn't recognize one if your life depended on it), etc.  Not worrying about a broken toe or tearing your vocal chords. 

What is the defensive strategy in a 100 meter race?  The high jump?  50 meter freestyle?  Clean and Jerk weightlifting?  So, these are not a sports either?

Again, separate athletes with the rules by which they compete.  Sports have objective outcomes that do not require a judge to tell us who won.  This is different than referees that make sure the rules are followed.

[Galway Eagle]

What is the defensive strategy in a 100 meter race?  The high jump?  50 meter freestyle?  Clean and Jerk weightlifting?  So, these are not a sports either?

Again, separate athletes with the rules by which they compete.  Sports have objective outcomes that do not require a judge to tell us who won.  This is different than referees that make sure the rules are followed.

Weightlifting is not a sport it's an athletic competition.  Sport though I do not agree.  Regarding the others, there's always exceptions to the rule. Personally i believe the majority of those are athletic competitions not sports. 

[Galway Eagle]

You're again mistaking athletes with definition of sports.  Boxers are incredible athletes but that has no bearing on the current makeup of professional boxing and weather it is a sport or exhibition.  Figure skaters and gymnasts are also incredible athletes but the way they compete is not a sport either.

Amateur boxing is a little more objective.  Thy have a scoring system for punches landed.   That makes it more of a sport.

First: It's whether not weather, if you're going to insult my sport by comparing it to what is essentially an steroid filled, redneck opera then use the proper words.  

Second:  Like I said before feel free to make your professional boxing debut and come back here and tell me all about how it's an exhibition no different than wrestling but until then you are just another beer gutted fan who despises fighting sports.  

Thirdly:  Do you understand the scoring system for Professional or Amatuer boxing? Do you understand the difference in a power punch and a non power punch that scores you points?  Do you understand even what compubox is?  Probably not, so all of your assumptions are about to come off of whatever wikepedia research you do real quick before your response.  

If you want to say boxing's not a sport then fine, because you play sports, "I'm going to play football, play basketball, play soccer."  You don't play boxing and then please enlighten me to how it's like that stupid professional wrestling. 

[Benny B]

FTFY

I'm sure it's happened several times over the long history of the two sports, but when's the last time you saw a basketball or football player high during a game?

I was watching a clip on snowboarding half pipe practice today and saw several competitors complaining about conditions... that's what happens when Russia takes your pot away, you complain about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm sure it's happened several times over the long history of the two sports, but when's the last time you saw a basketball or football player high during a game?

I was watching a clip on snowboarding half pipe practice today and saw several competitors complaining about conditions... that's what happens when Russia takes your pot away, you complain about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.

Last year, Jay Williams of the Chicago Bulls said some Bulls players were high during games.  Bulls denied it, but who knows.

I'm guessing it happens quite a bit more than we will ever know.

[forgetful]

So your inability to judge the techniques employed and skills displayed are what determines what is and isn't a sport.

It's a silly argument, regardless.
If you want to think that auto racing, darts and golf are more legitimately "sports" than boxing and figure skating, because it's easier for you to tell who won, have at it.

Pakuni, the bolded is spot on.  The problem is that a lot of these sports, most people don't know the rules or understand how the scoring works.  But there is certainly scoring.  With any spot there are also judgement calls that can complicate matters.  Again that doesn't detract from the scoring system.

As to the confusion by some of the announcers or participants.  The same thing happens in all sports.  I seem to recall a certain possession where there may have been a shot clock violation, but may have hit the rim, but they blew the whistle apparently before anyone had possession so they awarded the ball to the team that certainly shouldn't have gotten it...all this because they made a judgement call and made a mistake.

Similarly, a player takes a 3, but the officials call it a 2, because from there vantage point his foot was on the line.  Player is irate because he thinks he was behind the line.  They review it on instant replay, but it is inconclusive so they go with the 2...still a judgement call.  Player is shocked...announcers who thought he was behind the line are shocked.  Those are equivalent to the same things going on in these events you do not consider sports.

Let's go with figure skating for instance, to be awarded a triple whatever, there has to be complete rotation before the landing.  They judge whether rotation was complete in real time and can go back to instant replays to review whether it was complete.  Announcers and athlete think they complete rotation, judge reviews instant replay and disagrees, leading ot shock by the athlete and announcer.  No difference than a toe on the line if you understand the rule system.

Same goes for other sports, slopestyle, did a hand touch the snow on a landing?, Did they maintain balance when landing (aka was the defender moving on a charge)?  

Again just because you do not understand the nuances of the rules or scoring systems does not make it less of a sport.  Also, similar to other sports surprise at official decisions by announcers or athletes does not detract from the sport (did the receiver have possession...simultaneous possession on a hail mary).  

[brandx]

I'm sure it's happened several times over the long history of the two sports, but when's the last time you saw a basketball or football player high during a game?

I was watching a clip on snowboarding half pipe practice today and saw several competitors complaining about conditions... that's what happens when Russia takes your pot away, you complain about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.

You're kidding, right?