MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on January 23, 2020, 07:11:06 AM
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I don't think we have a dedicated M2N thread this year? Could have boosted last year's but let's start fresh with a poll.
Where do you think Markus will go in the draft? How much do you think MU's team success this year determines if/where he gets drafted? Is there a definitive composite board somewhere? The ones I've seen have him ~40 right now, which seems pretty reasonable to me at this stage.
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Team success will have very little meaning to NBA scouts and, ultimately, GMs. With one exception ...
Can our All-American pull off a Kemba (or at least something close to it) in the NCAA tourney?
Scouts and GMs already know exactly who Markus is and what he does. A good finish to the regular season could lift him a notch or 4, but it would take an NCAA stretch for the ages to really boost his status IMHO.
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DJO went 52 and had more size and hops so I'm saying low 2nd
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DJO went 52 and had more size and hops so I'm saying low 2nd
Nowhere near the scorer and ball handler.
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DJO went 52 and had more size and hops so I'm saying low 2nd
Nowhere near the scorer and ball handler.
DJO was drafted for his athleticism; Markus will be drafted because he is elite at a highly valued skill.
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If you hadn't added the snark about a late season collapse that hasn't happened yet, I would have voted undrafted. Great player. All time scorer. 5'11 is the tiny elephant in the room. If he was 6'3, he would be the next Curry and already in the league.
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Someone will take him in the second round.
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I hope you are right.
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No doubt in my mind he gets drafted. He'll bounce between the G-League and the end of an NBA bench, but he'll get drafted.
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If you hadn't added the snark about a late season collapse that hasn't happened yet, I would have voted undrafted. Great player. All time scorer. 5'11 is the tiny elephant in the room. If he was 6'3, he would be the next Curry and already in the league.
I have a very hard time seeing him going undrafted as the NCAA leading scorer on a high-major team in a very competitive big east, a Wooden finalist and 1st team all-american. If he isn't those things it's likely that he (and by extension the team) will have done very poorly the rest of the season.
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I'm 50/50 on him going in the last half of the 2nd round or latching on with someone as an undrafted free agent. Obviously, height/size is the issue.
Whether he's drafted or not, I think he'll start out in the G-League. Teams are going to want to see how he performs against NBA length. There's a chance he makes it work (like Fred VanVleet), but if it doesn't after a season in the G-League, I think he'll happily move on to Europe.
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I have a very hard time seeing him going undrafted as the NCAA leading scorer on a high-major team in a very competitive big east, a Wooden finalist and 1st team all-american. If he isn't those things it's likely that he (and by extension the team) will have done very poorly the rest of the season.
Scottie Reynolds
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Scottie Reynolds
18.2 ppg Senior Year vs 28.4 ppg (so far) Senior Year.
21.8% Assist % Senior Year vs 25.1 Assist % (so far) Senior Year.
15% TO % Senior Year vs 12.3 TO % (so far) Senior Year.
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18.2 ppg Senior Year vs 28.4 ppg (so far) Senior Year.
21.8% Assist % Senior Year vs 25.1 Assist % (so far) Senior Year.
15% TO % Senior Year vs 12.3 TO % (so far) Senior Year.
I voted Markus gets drafted late 2nd round but I'm just playing devils advocate here. There is a precedent for a First team all Americans on an outstanding team to not get drafted.
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I feel like he would be a good player for a playoff team to pick later in the second round. If he’s able to play at an NBA level, you’ve just picked up a heck of a shooter off the bench.
He’s proven that he can make tough shots and create looks for himself. Maybe an NBA training program helps him overcome his size issue. The difference between Wes Matthews now than in his MU videos was staggering.
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I voted Markus gets drafted late 2nd round but I'm just playing devils advocate here. There is a precedent for a First team all Americans on an outstanding team to not get drafted.
Sure - but not when that All American is also the NCAA leading scorer (currently by 5 points over the next high-major player). If Markus finishes the season in that position (and as a first-team all american), and isn't drafted I would be majorly surprised.
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Think he's definitely drafted and definitely sticks on NBA roster (No G-League). I think he'd be a great pick for the Bucks.
He's one of those special kids that you don't bet against, and if I'm a GM with a late first round pick, I consider using it on Markus.
However, he's probably going to be a second rounder, but can see many teams kicking themselves for not taking him as the numbers/production/shooting ability/character, don't lie. He's a Malcolm Brogdon 2.0 - and yes, I know he's much shorter.
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My thoughts on Howard have shifted over the past month or so and I think he gets drafted and sticks on a NBA team.
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Sure - but not when that All American is also the NCAA leading scorer (currently by 5 points over the next high-major player). If Markus finishes the season in that position (and as a first-team all american), and isn't drafted I would be majorly surprised.
Scouts/GMs don't care about college awards or stats. All they care about is how this question is answered: What is this player's chance of successfully filling a role at the game's highest level?
I would think Markus might be attractive to a team that has a few very good drive-and-dish players who could create wide-open looks for a guy of Markus' shooting ability. Whether he could carve out a role as something more than a few-minute-per-game guy to spread the court would be up to how well a team could hide him on defense.
I'm not even saying Markus is a "bad" defender. He's just extremely small ... and he isn't one of those "tiny pest" kind of small defenders who can hound an offensive player and force turnovers -- at least he hasn't shown he has that in his game. Just about every NBA team would be able to easily exploit a matchup against Markus, and that is a major deal.
But yes, Markus is an elite shooter and a fierce competitor. I would think that would appeal to at least a few teams.
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If you hadn't added the snark about a late season collapse that hasn't happened yet, I would have voted undrafted. Great player. All time scorer. 5'11 is the tiny elephant in the room. If he was 6'3, he would be the next Curry and already in the league.
Five years ago, I would have agreed with this. But with so many teams using spot up 3-point shooters, I think he will be drafted and make a roster. Depending on what is available to teams late in the 1st round, he could go then, but I am expecting mid-to-late 2nd round.
His height will certainly limit his minutes, though, because you gotta play defense 50% of the time on the floor. He will also need to learn to play more without the ball. He has become outstanding running corner to corner off of screens, but he is obviously used to having the ball in his hands a lot at MU.
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Five years ago, I would have agreed with this. But with so many teams using spot up 3-point shooters, I think he will be drafted and make a roster. Depending on what is available to teams late in the 1st round, he could go then, but I am expecting mid-to-late 2nd round.
His height will certainly limit his minutes, though, because you gotta play defense 50% of the time on the floor. He will also need to learn to play more without the ball. He has become outstanding running corner to corner off of screens, but he is obviously used to having the ball in his hands a lot at MU.
The other thing is this. What type of defender gives Markus the most trouble? Long armed defenders who are as quick as he is. What is nearly every single guard in the NBA? A long armed defender who is as quick as he is. I hope I am wrong. He is an amazing player and an amazing representative of our university. I just keep doing a mental check of sub 6' players in the NBA and compare them to Markus. I hope his truly elite shooting skills are enough.
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I'm thinking early second, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if a good team drafting late in the first takes a flier on him.
Markus this year has really improved his ability to create his shot, and that will ease a lot of size concerns. Teams will still be nervous about his ability to guard players 4-5 inches taller and more athletic than him, but a late first isn't a huge risk.
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My hope for him is a poor man's DJ Augustin, but a better shooter.
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He’s gonna get drafted
That much I’ll guarantee
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The other thing is this. What type of defender gives Markus the most trouble? Long armed defenders who are as quick as he is. What is nearly every single guard in the NBA? A long armed defender who is as quick as he is. I hope I am wrong. He is an amazing player and an amazing representative of our university. I just keep doing a mental check of sub 6' players in the NBA and compare them to Markus. I hope his truly elite shooting skills are enough.
IMHO the team that is thinking seriously about drafting Markus will not be planning to use him in situations in which he would be closely guarded by long-armed defenders. Markus has to have the ball in his hands for us -- a lot. At the next level, I think he would primarily be used as a spot-up shooter -- the guy who stands outside the arc, with his hands in a ready-to-catch position, spreading the court for his team. If his defender leaves him to help on a driver, Markus could simply catch and shoot before the defender recovers to challenge him. I think that would be the plan, anyway.
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IMHO the team that is thinking seriously about drafting Markus will not be planning to use him in situations in which he would be closely guarded by long-armed defenders. Markus has to have the ball in his hands for us -- a lot. At the next level, I think he would primarily be used as a spot-up shooter -- the guy who stands outside the arc, with his hands in a ready-to-catch position, spreading the court for his team. If his defender leaves him to help on a driver, Markus could simply catch and shoot before the defender recovers to challenge him. I think that would be the plan, anyway.
I actually think he will be a back up point guard.
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markus work ethic, character and shooting skills are all winners. he works on his defense, he may be able to do very well $$ for himself-hey, $3-6 mil for a few years??
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The other thing is this. What type of defender gives Markus the most trouble? Long armed defenders who are as quick as he is. What is nearly every single guard in the NBA? A long armed defender who is as quick as he is. I hope I am wrong. He is an amazing player and an amazing representative of our university. I just keep doing a mental check of sub 6' players in the NBA and compare them to Markus. I hope his truly elite shooting skills are enough.
You could very well be right. Thinking of guys that are around MH's height - IT, Paddy Mills, Jose Berea - they were all super quick guys who were PGs. Markus is not as quick as any of those guys and he tends to lose the ball a lot when driving the lane. Markus' one elite level skill - shooting - is better than any of those guys, so who knows?
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If you're a real fan and a real competitor, you EXPECT him to be the number 1 pick. You never expect someone else to be drafted higher or you're just accepting mediocrity
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IMHO the team that is thinking seriously about drafting Markus will not be planning to use him in situations in which he would be closely guarded by long-armed defenders. Markus has to have the ball in his hands for us -- a lot. At the next level, I think he would primarily be used as a spot-up shooter -- the guy who stands outside the arc, with his hands in a ready-to-catch position, spreading the court for his team. If his defender leaves him to help on a driver, Markus could simply catch and shoot before the defender recovers to challenge him. I think that would be the plan, anyway.
Put him on the Bucks and let Giannis draw a crowd and dish to him.
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Usually when you post a poll, you don't include the scenarios that lead to each of the answers.
In short, you're not asking us to vote on where Markus is drafted, you're asking us whether we believe MU is going to win a Natty, deep tourney run, late season collapse, etc.
Why start a new thread? Why not just dust off and update the pre-season predictions?
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If you're a real fan and a real competitor, you EXPECT him to be the number 1 pick. You never expect someone else to be drafted higher or you're just accepting mediocrity
Haha too good.
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The obvious comp is Carsen Edwards (33rd overall last year)
Depending on post-season performance, I think he'll go +/- 10 picks of that
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I actually think he will be a back up point guard.
Maybe, though in the NBA a lot of teams (maybe even most) don't have the same kind of position designations many of us are accustomed to. Who plays PG for the Lakers and Bucks?
Markus' PG skills have improved but he is not a highly skilled PG, at least not yet. Maybe he can keep developing those skills and be decent enough at the NBA level to use them there. We know he is a hard worker and is highly intelligent.
The one thing Markus does better than most humans who walk this planet is shoot, and that is what I believe NBA GMs, scouts and coaches will value the most.
If you're a real fan and a real competitor, you EXPECT him to be the number 1 pick. You never expect someone else to be drafted higher or you're just accepting mediocrity
Cracked me up ... though teal was completely unnecessary.
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Maybe, though in the NBA a lot of teams (maybe even most) don't have the same kind of position designations many of us are accustomed to. Who plays PG for the Lakers and Bucks?
For the Bucks it's Eric Bledsoe and George Hill. But I know what you are saying.
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Here's the other issue. Does anyone really think Markus is actually 5'11? I certainly don't.
Jae Crowder shrunk two inches from the time he left Marquette to the time he arrived at the NBA combine.
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Here's the other issue. Does anyone really think Markus is actually 5'11? I certainly don't.
Jae Crowder shrunk two inches from the time he left Marquette to the time he arrived at the NBA combine.
So did Hayward. Yet Jimmy Butler gained one. Idk what the difference is in measuring is but it's weird
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Cracked me up ... though teal was completely unnecessary.
I thought so too, but I figured I'd err on the side of caution
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So did Hayward. Yet Jimmy Butler gained one. Idk what the difference is in measuring is but it's weird
The difference is Jimmy is a psycho (and I mean that in the best way possible, I love him) and looks for any conceivable perception that he is being slighted for motivation. That's my working hypothesis.
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Undrafted and making his living by scamming guys in pickup basketball a la "White Men Can't Jump".
That's what happens when you never pass the ball.
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Here's the other issue. Does anyone really think Markus is actually 5'11? I certainly don't.
Jae Crowder shrunk two inches from the time he left Marquette to the time he arrived at the NBA combine.
I'm guessing 5-9 1/2 to 5-10.
But if Draymond can play center at 6'5", I guess Markus can play guard at 5'10"
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The obvious comp is Carsen Edwards (33rd overall last year)
Depending on post-season performance, I think he'll go +/- 10 picks of that
Good call.
Another thing to add: I suspect GM's there is a very small component of a GM's decision-making process to be able to defend their draft choices - as far as rationale for selection. Would be hard to fault a GM for taking Markus late first/second round.
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The obvious comp is Carsen Edwards (33rd overall last year)
Here's the other issue. Does anyone really think Markus is actually 5'11? I certainly don't.
And, since we're comparing them, it's worth noting that Edwards shrunk two inches between Purdue (https://purduesports.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/carsen-edwards/8362) and the Celtics (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4066407/carsen-edwards).
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Late 2nd rounder. I think he'll play spot minutes in the NBA for a while.
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Is Jimmer Fredette a less obvious comp?
I feel like Markus will follow a similar path, professionally, to Jimmer.
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If you're a real fan and a real competitor, you EXPECT him to be the number 1 pick. You never expect someone else to be drafted higher or you're just accepting mediocrity
This is terrific. Ha ha!
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So did Hayward. Yet Jimmy Butler gained one. Idk what the difference is in measuring is but it's weird
I don't remember Jimmy being listed as 6'5" at Marquette.
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I don't remember Jimmy being listed as 6'5" at Marquette.
Gomarquette has 6'7 and I saw 6'8 when you google his name.
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If he was 6'3, he would be the next Curry and already in the league.
If he was 6'3 he'd probably have gone to a blue blood.
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Gomarquette has 6'7 and I saw 6'8 when you google his name.
I always thought he was listed at 6'7" at MU.
He measured 6' 6 1/4" at the NBA Combine.
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Is Jimmer Fredette a less obvious comp?
I feel like Markus will follow a similar path, professionally, to Jimmer.
We'll, Jimmer was the #10 overall pick in 2011. So for Draft purposes at least, Markus loves that comparison.
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Good call.
Another thing to add: I suspect GM's there is a very small component of a GM's decision-making process to be able to defend their draft choices - as far as rationale for selection. Would be hard to fault a GM for taking Markus late first/second round.
That’s a huge difference. It’s the difference for a GM. 2nd rounders have been flyers, where 1st rounders need to be hits for GMs to keep their jobs.
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That’s a huge difference. It’s the difference for a GM. 2nd rounders have been flyers, where 1st rounders need to be hits for GMs to keep their jobs.
I'm not sure that's really the case.
Draft picks outside the lottery have relatively low value in the NBA these days, which is why good teams are so willing to part with them. I don't think any GM is losing a job over missing on late picks.
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I'm not sure that's really the case.
Draft picks outside the lottery have relatively low value in the NBA these days, which is why good teams are so willing to part with them. I don't think any GM is losing a job over missing on late picks.
Yeah it's kinda crazy, NFL you accumulate as many picks as possible, and even late rounders have value. outside of the top 5-10 in the NBA is essentially just trade fodder
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Is Jimmer Fredette a less obvious comp?
I feel like Markus will follow a similar path, professionally, to Jimmer.
Cometely agree.
Markus and Jimmer are about as close of a basketball comparison as you can make between two players.
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Are there any really short spot up shooters? The ones that come to mind are all kinda lengthy
If a spot up shooter is short, it's easier to close out on him/his shot.
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Are there any really short spot up shooters? The ones that come to mind are all kinda lengthy
If a spot up shooter is short, it's easier to close out on him/his shot.
Right. Which is why I think he will need to be a point.
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I have a very hard time seeing him going undrafted as the NCAA leading scorer on a high-major team in a very competitive big east, a Wooden finalist and 1st team all-american. If he isn't those things it's likely that he (and by extension the team) will have done very poorly the rest of the season.
Due da name, Scottie Reynolds, wring a bell, hey?
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Due da name, Scottie Reynolds, wring a bell, hey?
Scottie Reynolds
Nice call
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Nice call
Again - AND leading high-major scorer (two-years in a row no less!)
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Are there any really short spot up shooters? The ones that come to mind are all kinda lengthy
If a spot up shooter is short, it's easier to close out on him/his shot.
Lou Williams is 6-1, and he plays off the ball a lot. The Hornets have been using Terry Rozier, at 6-1, a ton as a catch-and-shoot guy. Later in his career, Jason Terry became more of a spot-up shooter than a true PG. Craig Hodges was generously listed as 6-2, and he had no trouble getting open 3s during 10 years standing behind the arc as a spot-up shooter.
It's not common ... but then again 6-footish guys playing key roles for NBA teams isn't very common, period.
Markus has a quick release, and he would find himself quite open fairly regularly in the NBA. On a per-minute basis, he probably would get way more wide-open 3 looks in the NBA than he has these last couple of years at Marquette, where ever defense keys on him.
That doesn't mean he wouldn't play some PG if he makes an NBA roster. He just hasn't exhibited many great, NBA-level PG skills so far IMHO.
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Again - AND leading high-major scorer (two-years in a row no less!)
Yeah I mean there's no perfect comparison but I do think that's a pretty darn good one
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The other thing is this. What type of defender gives Markus the most trouble? Long armed defenders who are as quick as he is. What is nearly every single guard in the NBA? A long armed defender who is as quick as he is. I hope I am wrong. He is an amazing player and an amazing representative of our university. I just keep doing a mental check of sub 6' players in the NBA and compare them to Markus. I hope his truly elite shooting skills are enough.
I believe this to be the case. If he is drafted it will be late 2nd round.
There were two PGs under 6ft drafted last year in Carsen Edward and Tremont Waters. Both are currently in the G league. I think both are more athletic but not as good shooters.
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Found a post from last year when discussing Markus where 4never said that Markus hadn't improved under Wojo. I love that.
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Found a post from last year when discussing Markus where 4never said that Markus hadn't improved under Wojo. I love that.
Ya gotta give Doc a break. He was a little woozy from celebrating the fact that Wojo missed on a couple of 5-star recruits. He's still bummed that we got Dawson.
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Found a post from last year when discussing Markus where 4never said that Markus hadn't improved under Wojo. I love that.
JayBee had M2N from Day 1 at MU. Feather in his cap there. Stan said Markus would be a program changer. Markus shot 50% from 3 as a frosh. Markus generally went home every summer and trained under his brother. Not sure Wojo is the source of Markus’s improvement?
If Wojo made an impact it was by giving him the ultimate green light and sticking with that for three years - despite there being times it wasn’t beneficial, caused chemistry issues, and ultimately transfers.
When a coach has your back to this extent and gives the longest leash, no doubt that helps to extract the most out of a player. So..that where I see Wojo making the biggest mark on Markus.
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JayBee had M2N from Day 1 at MU. Feather in his cap there. Stan said Markus would be a program changer. Markus shot 50% from 3 as a frosh. Markus generally went home every summer and trained under his brother. Not sure Wojo is the source of Markus’s improvement?
If Wojo made an impact it was by giving him the ultimate green light and sticking with that for three years - despite there being times it wasn’t beneficial, caused chemistry issues, and ultimately transfers.
When a coach has your back to this extent and gives the longest leash, no doubt that helps to extract the most out of a player. So..that where I see Wojo making the biggest mark on Markus.
Lol
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Markus is a better player and shooter overall, but Russ Smith from Louisville is another good more contemporary comp
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For a NPOY candidate, Markus does not get the proportionate respect from the officials. He can get literally wrestled into a turnover and knocked to the ground without calls.
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For a NPOY candidate, Markus does not get the proportionate respect from the officials. He can get literally wrestled into a turnover and knocked to the ground without calls.
And freedom of movement is out the window in regards to him. He gets held/pushed off the ball constantly.
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Ah, Markus crapped da bed tonite. Just sayin', hey?
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Check his numbers from the 11:34 minute mark onward after getting mugged twice in a row.
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Check his numbers from the 11:34 minute mark onward after getting mugged twice in a row.
Marshall said it after the game...Markus hoisted some baaaad shots.
(If you're wondering, yes, if they had gone, they'd have been great shots)