2011-12 NFC North Division

[jmayer1]

Wasn't the NFL trade deadline last month? I must have missed the Cutler to the Packers trade.

I mean really on the Matt Flynn Kool Aid? He's a fine back up, but I mean come on. Cutler has at least been to a Pro Bowl and the playoffs.

At this point, they are both probably best when they are game managers and not asked to make a ton of plays; so that you can limit their mistakes. In Cutler's defense, the Bear's wide receivers are just terrible, they never do him any favors, but he isn't a markedly different quarterback than he was in Denver with a better set of wide receivers.  Flynn is obviously unproven and has no track record, so you have to say that Cutler is much, much better QB at this point.

However, regardless of Sunday's stinker, I'd rather have Stafford for the next 5-7 years than Cutler, with the huge caveat that he must stay healthy.

[tower912]

Was what Stafford did to Moore a football move?

It was a PO'd qb throwing a tantrum football move.   Moore had locked up with him and Stafford shed the block.     I am sure that all over the league, other qbs are cheering the play when they see it on film.

[MUBurrow]

speaking of Robison, did anyone else catch him shoving a referee last night? I thought I did during the game, so was glad to find a youtube video of it. I don't mean to sound ejection happy, since I hate players getting kicked out, but how does this not get you an early shower?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCbvbYF64EI&feature=player_embedded

I know the ref puts his hands on Robison first, but thats how breaking up potential fights works - especially given that its pretty clear that Robison has no purpose being around the crowd of players other than to look for trouble.

[MUMac]

speaking of Robison, did anyone else catch him shoving a referee last night? I thought I did during the game, so was glad to find a youtube video of it. I don't mean to sound ejection happy, since I hate players getting kicked out, but how does this not get you an early shower?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCbvbYF64EI&feature=player_embedded

I know the ref puts his hands on Robison first, but thats how breaking up potential fights works - especially given that its pretty clear that Robison has no purpose being around the crowd of players other than to look for trouble.

Wow, that is surprising he was not, at the least, penalized for that.  I don't think it was ejection worthy, but sure could have been a penalty.

On another Robinson note, after the Packers first extra point, Robinson walked up to Lang, put his arm around him and they talked for a bit.  Looked like he was apolotizing for the foot to the groin last month. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Frankly, I am really tired of discussions with you. You are certainly not worth any effort to engage in any further discussion.

Fair enough. I guess if someone had just crushed my points and made me look a fool, I'd avoid discussions with that person too 

[MUMac]

Fair enough. I guess if someone had just crushed my points and made me look a fool, I'd avoid discussions with that person too 

Not in the slightest.  It's just the more your argue with an idiot, no one can tell who the idiot is.  So, I stopped arguing with  you to avoid being confused for the idiot.  I will let you play that role by yourself.

Still sticking with your replay argument?   

[MerrittsMustache]

Not in the slightest.  It's just the more your argue with an idiot, no one can tell who the idiot is.  So, I stopped arguing with  you to avoid being confused for the idiot.  I will let you play that role by yourself.

Still sticking with your replay argument?   

So I'm the idiot for supporting my statements with facts? If that's your take, so be it.

Cheers!

[DegenerateDish]

Got a question for you Dish...

Has Roy Williams ever caught a ball clean?  Game, practice, backyard with his kids?  I swear he juggles every single ball thrown his way. 

I think you answered your own question, but forthe deal they gave him, he was worth the risk. I can't imagine him being back next season.

Flynn is a fine backup, but both Cutler and Stafford have two of the premiere arms in the league (better than Rodgers even).

[MUMac]

So I'm the idiot for supporting my statements with facts? If that's your take, so be it.

Cheers!

No, your the idiot for continuing to argue the rules without a sound knowledge of those very rules.  You made some incorrect interpretations in both the rules and use of replay.  I corrected you.  From that point on, as I cited the rules, all I got was condescending jerkiness in return.  

You don't understand the rules, I get that.  Many don't.  They are confusing.  I do understand the rules.  I am an admitted Football Rules geek.  But when I pointed those out, you became, well, yourself.  Your flaw was trying to apply replay standards of other sports to the NFL.  They handle things differently.

So for that is how you earned your idiocy.  That is why this is the last response I will have to you in any post.  As I stated earlier, you are not worth the effort.  Abstinent and condescending are not always quality attributes.

[jmayer1]

Cutler and Stafford have two of the premiere arms in the league (better than Rodgers even).

Disagree fiercely on this point. Defined by what? Pure ability to throw the ball X yards down the field? Maybe, but I don't think that's much of a consideration at all when you talk about "premier" arms. I'd take Rodgers in terms of ability to make the precision throw, on-time, any place on the field--short, middle, deep.

[shiloh26]

Both Cutler and Stafford have two of the premiere arms in the league (better than Rodgers even).

Wait, according to MNF, Rodgers has the arm of Elway, the release of Marino, the poise of Montana, the mind of Manning, blah blah blah. (vomit).  And I'm a diehard Packers fan.  I can't stand that kind of puffery.  ESPN has the creativity of Jeff George.   

Maybe Cutler and Stafford do, maybe they don't, all I know is that Rodgers makes throws that neither of them can.  The rocket to Jennings in the first quarter for a touchdown passed about 6 inches over the linebacker's outstretched arm, and hit Jennings a few feet before a safety would have had a play.  Any lower, and its a deflection, loftier and its probably incomplete or risking getting Jennings blown up.  And he's been doing that all year.  When he sees man coverage, he can throw deep or place it back shoulder.  He's absolutely tearing apart whatever secondaries are trying to do.  Wherever the advanced metrics on his arm rank, he's playing as if he has the best arm.

Don't get me wrong, I think Stafford, and Cutler especially are very good quarterbacks.  Cutler probably has every ounce of ability that Rodgers does, but very few guys ever put it all together like Rodgers has right now. 

[MerrittsMustache]

No, your the idiot for continuing to argue the rules without a sound knowledge of those very rules.  You made some incorrect interpretations in both the rules and use of replay.  I corrected you.  From that point on, as I cited the rules, all I got was condescending jerkiness in return. 

You don't understand the rules, I get that.  Many don't.  They are confusing.  I do understand the rules.  I am an admitted Football Rules geek.  But when I pointed those out, you became, well, yourself.  Your flaw was trying to apply replay standards of other sports to the NFL.  They handle things differently.

So for that is how you earned your idiocy.  That is why this is the last response I will have to you in any post.  As I stated earlier, you are not worth the effort.  Abstinent and condescending are not always quality attributes.

Actually, what you got were posts that included sources backing up my statement that NFL officials review fights and that roughing the passer could be an ejectable offense. Instead of eating your crow, you chose to attack me personally, ignore the facts presented and pretend like you were right.

[MU B2002]

Wait, according to MNF, Rodgers has the arm of Elway, the release of Marino, the poise of Montana, the mind of Manning, blah blah blah. (vomit).  And I'm a diehard Packers fan.  I can't stand that kind of puffery.  ESPN has the creativity of Jeff George.   

John Gruden has never seen a player that wasn't the best at something.

Jared Allen in fact invented the word sack.

[MerrittsMustache]

John Gruden has never seen a player that wasn't the best at something.

Jared Allen in fact invented the word sack.

I actually enjoy Gruden on MNF because he's so laughably ridiculous. I'd love to see him and Buck Laughlin call a game...or a dog show.

[mugrad2006]

I actually enjoy Gruden on MNF because he's so laughably ridiculous. I'd love to see him and Buck Laughlin call a game...or a dog show.

You know what they should do, they should get that dog a little hat and a pipe, like Sherlock Holmes.  Do they ever do that, put costumes on the dogs?

/Man do I love Fred Willard, just watched that this week with the wife and she just stared at me at the like "what the heck was that"

[reinko]

I think you answered your own question, but forthe deal they gave him, he was worth the risk. I can't imagine him being back next season.

Flynn is a fine backup, but both Cutler and Stafford have two of the premiere arms in the league (better than Rodgers even).

I am curious by this statement, by premier arms do you mean they can throw a football further?  If so, I agree, but in every other skill that is needed to be a QB in the NFL, Rodgers has them beat.  Footwork, speed, checkdowns, reading defenses, accuracy, avoiding sacks, decision making, touchdown dances 

[MerrittsMustache]

I am curious by this statement, by premier arms do you mean they can throw a football further?  If so, I agree, but in every other skill that is needed to be a QB in the NFL, Rodgers has them beat.  Footwork, speed, checkdowns, reading defenses, accuracy, avoiding sacks, decision making, touchdown dances 

Not to mention, he has by far the best receiving corps in the NFL. Not saying he isn't an elite level QB, but give him the Bears or Lions offense around him and I doubt he's viewed as a top 3 QB.

[reinko]

Not to mention, he has by far the best receiving corps in the NFL. Not saying he isn't an elite level QB, but give him the Bears or Lions offense around him and I doubt he's viewed as a top 3 QB.

Guess it's the old Peyton Manning corrollary.  Is it the QB that makes the WR's or the WR's that make the QB?  In this case, with my green and gold goggles, Jennings and Finely are elite at their respective positions, while Driver, Jones, Cobb, and Nelson are fillers and anyone smart enough to run the right route and catch a ball that hits them in the chest could do what they do.

Now if you give the Bears WR corps, with Rodgers and the McCarthy scheme, I think he would still be top 3, plus he would have Forte the NFC's best RB this year 

[LON]

Cutler is finally being properly managed/coached by Martz.  He is a fine QB when you don't treat him as a gunslinger.  have Matt Forte taking all the pressure off him.  IMHO, he is the 2nd best QB in the Division considering he can just always check it down to Forte.  He is playing awfully well right now, managing the game and running the offense giving the ball to Forte.  He is more accurate when he is not always taking a 7 step drop and not giving the ball to Forte, waiting to get hit!

Fixed for accuracy and this Packer fan's shot across your bow.

[JWags85]

I am curious by this statement, by premier arms do you mean they can throw a football further?  If so, I agree, but in every other skill that is needed to be a QB in the NFL, Rodgers has them beat.  Footwork, speed, checkdowns, reading defenses, accuracy, avoiding sacks, decision making, touchdown dances 

Part of Cutler's footwork and accuracy problems in the past were actually a result of him having such a good arm.  He could make a lot of throws in terms of distance and pace needed to get the ball there either flat footed or not completely balaced.  Other QBs would need to be lined up, feet set, and in correct position to make it.  Not saying this alone makes Cutler a great QB or its an excuse for him struggling in the past, but dude has a cannon.  Cutler has the ability to make throws Rodgers can't make.  The reason that Rodgers is such a good QB though is that he knows his ability and doesn't try to make those throws.  Its like Favre (and I'm not comparing Cutler to Favre explicitly, just in the "big arm and brazen attitude to use it" sort of way), he could fire a ball into window most people couldn't or wouldn't based on the arm needed to get it there.  Cutler is the same way, he just needs to work on his decision making and pick his spots better to make those seemingly impossible throws (which he has to an extent this year).

Think of it like a kid who never had to study for a tests cause he naturally was smarter.  He never develops study habits cause why does he need them?  He is excelling as is.  Then he gets to college and suddenly his natural aptitude doesn't always work.  And those kids who were also quite smart, but still needed to study in HS to get those As suddenly were in a better position to success where you needed more than just smarts alone.

[wadesworld]

People here are making it seem like every throw that Rodgers makes Cutler could also make. That is laughable. Rodgers makes throws that Jay Cutler cannot even dream of making. Bears fans are making it sound like every completion Rodgers gets is to a wide open wide receiver and that he never throws the ball into small windows. In just one game (and it just so happens to be the biggest game of all) there are more ridiculous throws that Rodgers makes than Cutler has ever made in his life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqGP13YHUXs

- The very first throw that goes right through Jordy's arms. Admittedly, Jordy had some seperation, but Rodgers put the ball absolutely perfectly for him to catch that in front of him.
- At 0:45. Talk about a small window to throw into. You can't defend that any better.
- At 2:45. That may be the most ridiculously thrown ball I have ever seen. And talk about an ARM. It is also a great catch, no doubt about that that ball gets dislodged with a lot of other wideouts, but the fact that he puts the ball where he does, over the diving defender and in front of the safety, is insane.
- 4:10.  Once again, a drop, but you can't throw a better ball, against a guy who has it perfectly defended.  And again, that's a laser.
- 6:15.  Again, a Jordy drop.  But a defender running in front of the wideout and Rodgers guns it right in front of him.  Ridiculous arm.
- 7:40.  These throws are as hard and on as straight of a line as you'll see a football thrown and they're going 20 yards (line of scrimmage is the 25, caught at the 45...he's throwing from the 18, so 27 yards).

Even Rodgers deep balls aren't just some pop up, let-it-fly.  The trajectory is still fairly low.  If you line up all NFL quarterbacks at 1 goal line and tell them to throw a ball as far as they can, Rodgers probably doesn't throw the ball the furthest.  But if you ask all NFL quarterbacks to throw a dart 20 yards into a small window, there is nobody who throws a ball with as much heat as Rodgers does.  And nobody throws the back shoulder (which is impossible to defend when executed well) better than Rodgers (which a lot of credit also has to go to the wide outs no doubt).

[JWags85]

People here are making it seem like every throw that Rodgers makes Cutler could also make. That is laughable. Rodgers makes throws that Jay Cutler cannot even dream of making. Bears fans are making it sound like every completion Rodgers gets is to a wide open wide receiver and that he never throws the ball into small windows. In just one game (and it just so happens to be the biggest game of all) there are more ridiculous throws that Rodgers makes than Cutler has ever made in his life.

I don't think its that Bears fans, like myself, think Cutler can make all the throws Rodgers can.  In fact, you ask most Bears fans and they'll tell you Rodgers is probably the best QB in the league, and if any hate him, its because he is so damn good.  I think its more the fact that Packers fans are so, rightfully, in love with Rodgers that they view Cutler as some scout team level chucker.  I mean, Cutler and Matt Flynn in the same discussion, give me an F-ing break.  Plenty of people that get paid to know and talk about football remark about the strength of Cutler's arm.  Rodgers has WAY more touch and accuracy than Cutler has, I'm not gonna doubt it, but please stop acting like Cutler isn't playing with one of the worst WR-OL combos in the league and still helping his team win alot of games.

[LON]

Rodgers has WAY more touch and accuracy than Cutler has, I'm not gonna doubt it, but please stop acting like Cutler isn't playing with one of the worst WR-OL combos in the league and still helping his team win alot of games.. However, due to Forte, they are still winning games.

/beating that drum
//it's fun, you see
///Belt

[DegenerateDish]

I'm not sure how what I said got taken out of context, but welcome to an internet message board I suppose.

Fact is, and you can ask any NFL scout, Cutler has premier arm strength (Stafford too). Rodgers has above average arm strength.

By no means is it a knock on Rodgers, he's both the best QB in the NFL and has better accuracy than any QB period.

Why that makes Packer fans mad, I have no idea. No one is saying Cutler is better than Rodgers, give me a break. If you can't accept that Rodgers arm strength is above average and less than Cutler's, then you should probably find something else to worry about. Arm strength is a very important part of being a QB, but accuracy even more so.

If you can stop confusing accuracy with arm strength, I think some people would have better thoughts here.

[wadesworld]

I'm not sure how what I said got taken out of context, but welcome to an internet message board I suppose.

Fact is, and you can ask any NFL scout, Cutler has premier arm strength (Stafford too). Rodgers has above average arm strength.

By no means is it a knock on Rodgers, he's both the best QB in the NFL and has better accuracy than any QB period.

Why that makes Packer fans mad, I have no idea. No one is saying Cutler is better than Rodgers, give me a break. If you can't accept that Rodgers arm strength is above average and less than Cutler's, then you should probably find something else to worry about. Arm strength is a very important part of being a QB, but accuracy even more so.

If you can stop confusing accuracy with arm strength, I think some people would have better thoughts here.

I'm saying Rodgers throws the ball with more heat that Cutler does, which, to me, has to do with arm strength.