Taxes

[MU82]

There are those who think that every American should have "skin in the game" and should have to pay some income tax. They pretend that there aren't all kinds of taxes and fees imposed on Americans every day, and most of them are regressive -- they affect the poor a lot more than they affect those with means. The sales tax might be the biggest of those.

To illustrate that, here is a letter that appeared in today's Charlotte Observer:

PLEASE DON’T ADD TO MY TAX BURDEN

I read about the arts people not having enough money in their funds, so they decided to just put it on a sales tax increase.

Forget the poor who are the ones paying these sales taxes, which seem to never quit. I am a 90-year-old man. I go to the dollar store and buy 10 boxes of tissue for $10 and the cashier charges me another 70 cents sales tax, which is almost another box of Kleenex. That cuts back my buying power.

President Trump has given an income tax cut for the rich. He should have cut the sales taxes and give a tax cut for the poor.

JOSEPH DEMERS, STATESVILLE

Obviously, POTUS can't cut sales taxes, which are state levies, but that's not the point. The point is that every American already has skin in the game. And as a percentage of his or her earnings, the poor has far more skin than the rich.

[Cheeks]

Yes, everyone should pay something in Federal Income Taxes.  The military defends us all, not just some...all should contribute.  Fed highways benefit rich and poor, even if one never uses them goods are shipped on those highways.  So on and so forth.  Everyone should pay something.  I don’t care if it is $5 min, everyone should pay something....for the educational purpose alone of explaining stuff isn’t free, this is your civic duty.

If you have no income, fine. 

[mu03eng]

There are those who think that every American should have "skin in the game" and should have to pay some income tax. They pretend that there are all kinds of taxes and fees imposed on Americans every day, and most of them are regressive -- they affect the poor a lot more than they affect those with means. The sales tax might be the biggest of those.

To illustrate that, here is a letter that appeared in today's Charlotte Observer:

PLEASE DON’T ADD TO MY TAX BURDEN

I read about the arts people not having enough money in their funds, so they decided to just put it on a sales tax increase.

Forget the poor who are the ones paying these sales taxes, which seem to never quit. I am a 90-year-old man. I go to the dollar store and buy 10 boxes of tissue for $10 and the cashier charges me another 70 cents sales tax, which is almost another box of Kleenex. That cuts back my buying power.

President Trump has given an income tax cut for the rich. He should have cut the sales taxes and give a tax cut for the poor.

JOSEPH DEMERS, STATESVILLE

Obviously, POTUS can't cut sales taxes, which are state levies, but that's not the point. The point is that every American already has skin in the game. And as a percentage of his or her earnings, the poor has far more skin than the rich.

This is the crux of why I'm a Modern Whig. Tax policy in this country and all levels is inherently complex (more a feature than a bug, but I disgress) which punishes the poor disproportionately because the federal government has assumed too many roles that should be left to the states. Further the states and local governments have blended their roles because everyone wants "control". I think the closer to the community you can put the control/purse strings the more efficient you are going to get. Obviously there are exceptions like national defense, interstate transit, technology and research, etc but the merging of federal, state, county, city, etc government levels is creating a real problem IMO

[MU82]

Yes, everyone should pay something in Federal Income Taxes.  The military defends us all, not just some...all should contribute.  Fed highways benefit rich and poor, even if one never uses them goods are shipped on those highways.  So on and so forth.  Everyone should pay something.  I don’t care if it is $5 min, everyone should pay something....for the educational purpose alone of explaining stuff isn’t free, this is your civic duty.

If you have no income, fine.

We will agree to disagree on this, troll, though it's interesting of you to acknowledge the importance of socialist initiatives like the highway system.

[Pakuni]

Yes, everyone should pay something in Federal Income Taxes.  The military defends us all, not just some...all should contribute.  Fed highways benefit rich and poor, even if one never uses them goods are shipped on those highways.  So on and so forth.  Everyone should pay something.  I don’t care if it is $5 min, everyone should pay something....for the educational purpose alone of explaining stuff isn’t free, this is your civic duty.

If you have no income, fine.

Federal highways are funded primarily through the federal gas tax, which everyone pays.
And yes, let's require everyone pay $5. How much does it cost to implement and enforce that program and collect the revenue? It would quickly become the biggest waste of money in the federal government, and that's saying something.
But it sure would teach those stupid poor people that stuff isn't free.

[Cheeks]

Federal highways are funded primarily through the federal gas tax, which everyone pays.
And yes, let's require everyone pay $5. How much does it cost to implement and enforce that program and collect the revenue? It would quickly become the biggest waste of money in the federal government, and that's saying something.
But it sure would teach those stupid poor people that stuff isn't free.

Primarily, but not solely.  If you FILE taxes, we can collect.  Not hard at all.  A huge number of people that FILE federal income taxes pay $0....very easy.  If we have the means to say "YOU DON'T OWE ANYTHING" we have the means to say, $5 (or name the amount) is going to be paid.  How is this even a challenge? It isn't.  Not in anyway.  We have your TAX ID number, your social security number (even though millions used fraudulently each year), etc.  If you are paid legitimately, piece of cake. 

Military, ATF, ICE, Border Patrol, highways, social security administration, etc, etc....federal tax dollars go to fund all of those things and everyone benefits in some way at the services or protections provided by those services.  Thus, EVERYONE should have to pay for some of it.  Everyone, even if only $5.

[Cheeks]

We will agree to disagree on this, troll, though it's interesting of you to acknowledge the importance of socialist initiatives like the highway system.

As I've said countless times, that is correct...there are things that are built for the collective good. In fact, I've used highways and military as such examples.  There is no such thing as pure capitalism....thanks for noticing my wise words.

[Pakuni]

Primarily, but not solely.  If you FILE taxes, we can collect.  Not hard at all.  A huge number of people that FILE federal income taxes pay $0....very easy.  If we have the means to say "YOU DON'T OWE ANYTHING" we have the means to say, $5 (or name the amount) is going to be paid.  How is this even a challenge? It isn't.  Not in anyway.  We have your TAX ID number, your social security number (even though millions used fraudulently each year), etc.  If you are paid legitimately, piece of cake. 

Well, first, people who are paid legitimately do pay federal taxes, aka payroll taxes. Payroll taxes make up about 35 percent of federal revenue. So, if your concern is that those people are paying nothing, rest easy. They are paying. For the military. For ICE. for ATF. They have skin in the game.

Second, the reason many of the people you cite here don't end up owing federal income taxes is because of various credits (child credits, EIC, exemptions, etc.). Now, if you're willing to do away with those so they have "skin in the game" I assume you must be willing to do away with credits that also benefit the wealthy and corporations that allow entities like Amazon to also have no skin in the game.

But all in all, I don't think you're all that concerned about who has skin in the game or the phony principle of teaching people that things aren't free (as if poor people don't know this). You just like to rail on poor people.

[MU82]

Well, first, people who are paid legitimately do pay federal taxes, aka payroll taxes. Payroll taxes make up about 35 percent of federal revenue. So, if your concern is that those people are paying nothing, rest easy. They are paying. For the military. For ICE. for ATF. They have skin in the game.

Second, the reason many of the people you cite here don't end up owing federal income taxes is because of various credits (child credits, EIC, exemptions, etc.). Now, if you're willing to do away with those so they have "skin in the game" I assume you must be willing to do away with credits that also benefit the wealthy and corporations that allow entities like Amazon to also have no skin in the game.

But all in all, I don't think you're all that concerned about who has skin in the game or the phony principle of teaching people that things aren't free (as if poor people don't know this). You just like to rail on poor people.

Agree with 100% of this. Especially the last line.

[Cheeks]

Federal Tax Dollars breakdown, others bucket it differently but this is one view.

24% Social Security
26% Medicare / Health (Medicare, CHIP, Medicaid)
15% Defense
13% Income Security  (Food Stamps, Unemployment insurance, Low Income Housing)
8% Veterans Benefits / Federal employee benefits
6% Net Interest on national debt
3% Other (NASA, Foreign Aid, National Parks, etc)
3% Education
2% Transportation

A lot of people benefit, in some cases the entire nation.  BY LAW, if you make more than $12K in income and under the age of 65.  76 million people this year will pay $0 in Federal Income taxes, or 44% of Americans.  Yes yes yes, some pay into payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc, etc....but the above items (defense, health care, education, etc) are funded by Federal INCOME taxes.  If you benefit, you should pay something.

[Cheeks]

But all in all, I don't think you're all that concerned about who has skin in the game or the phony principle of teaching people that things aren't free (as if poor people don't know this). You just like to rail on poor people.

Nope, and pretty sad that you say that.  Typical of you, but entirely wrong.  Just another one of your accusatory cards you play.  Sad, pathetic really.

It's pretty simple, if you benefit you should have to pay something.  I have nothing against poor or rich. I do have problems with people that scam the system, whether they are rich or poor.  The poor need help and I have zero problem with resources going that direction and it's also why we personally give to the poor.  Now, those that abuse the system and take away from those truly in need I find reprehensible, but it happens way too often. 

Finally, most of the Payroll Tax revenue goes to fund Social Security and Medicare.  To suggest that any large portion of payroll taxes are going to pay for the military, transportation, education, etc, is not appropriate when you breakdown what payroll taxes ultimately fund.

[SERocks]

I think if you are going to setup the system so that everyone pays something, then you need a major overhaul of the Federal tax system. 

As it stands it is a social program system (Earned Income Credit amongst others), a special interests system (too many credits/deductions to detail) and a national policy system (encourage home ownership / going to college) all rolled into one.  How about we use the tax system for what it was meant for and leave out all of the other policy drivers that have worked their way into the system.  Then I would agree that everyone could pay something.  However, if you set it up that way now you'll have what this thread has argued about since the opening post....

.....if I get a refund I did not pay taxes.  WOO  Me!

[Pakuni]

Nope, and pretty sad that you say that.  Typical of you, but entirely wrong.  Just another one of your accusatory cards you play.  Sad, pathetic really.

"Sad!"
A favorite phrase of someone else, I believe.
Anyhow, I'll stop believing you get your jollies out of railing on the poor when you stop saying dumb things about the poor needing to pay $5 in federal income taxes for the "educational purpose alone of explaining stuff isn’t free."
Deal?

I have nothing against poor or rich. I do have problems with people that scam the system, whether they are rich or poor.

Scam the system = paying what's legally required.
But yeah, we must stop all these poor people who are paying $1,000 an hour tax attorneys and lobbyists to take advantage of every loophole, hide their revenue in offshore accounts and influence tax legislation so they can avoid that $5 payment you suggest.
Again, I'd believe you didn't have it in for the poor if you complained about corporations avoiding taxes 1/10th as often as you did the single mom earning $11 an hour at Wal-Mart.

Finally, most of the Payroll Tax revenue goes to fund Social Security and Medicare.  To suggest that any large portion of payroll taxes are going to pay for the military, transportation, education, etc, is not appropriate when you breakdown what payroll taxes ultimately fund.

Cheeks then: It doesn't matter if federal highways are funding almost entirely by gas taxes.
Cheeks now: Payroll taxes don't count because a majority of that money goes to Social Security and Medicare.
Hmmm.

[Cheeks]

"Sad!"
A favorite phrase of someone else, I believe.
Anyhow, I'll stop believing you get your jollies out of railing on the poor when you stop saying dumb things about the poor needing to pay $5 in federal income taxes for the "educational purpose alone of explaining stuff isn’t free."
Deal?

Scam the system = paying what's legally required.
But yeah, we must stop all these poor people who are paying $1,000 an hour tax attorneys and lobbyists to take advantage of every loophole, hide their revenue in offshore accounts and influence tax legislation so they can avoid that $5 payment you suggest.
Again, I'd believe you didn't have it in for the poor if you complained about corporations avoiding taxes 1/10th as often as you did the single mom earning $11 an hour at Wal-Mart.

Cheeks then: It doesn't matter if federal highways are funding almost entirely by gas taxes.
Cheeks now: Payroll taxes don't count because a majority of that money goes to Social Security and Medicare.
Hmmm.

Lots of people say sad, especially when people are making sad claims.   When I say scamming, I mean people that are dipping into those funds when they shouldn't be, or are spending money irresponsibly on items instead of essentials.  And yes, by educational I mean there are way too many people in this country that have no idea what their taxes go to pay, or feel they are entitled to free stuff and shouldn't have to pay anything at all. That isn't railing on the poor...it is trying to teach folks basic civics. And yes, I do believe everyone should have to pay something, even if symbolic.  You disagree, that's fine....no need for the name calling and typical responses. Not going to do a "deal" that is flawed from the start with those antics.  Because people have differing viewpoints doesn't mean they hate the poor or anyone else, but that is tactic some people can't wait to unleash...a favorite phrase of someone else I believe. It dumbs the debate.

Do you want to break down the funding of payroll taxes that go to military, border patrol, ICE, ATF, etc ...I'm happy to have that discussion with you.

[Dr. Blackheart]

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51888.0

[jesmu84]

Who scams the system more:

1. Minimum wage worker who pays their required amount - even if zero

2. Millionaire who does everything they can to avoid paying their required amount - through legal, illegal or unethical means

[WarriorDad]

There are many items my taxes are used to pay for things I do not support.  That is the way it goes.  No reason to fret about it. 

[buckchuckler]

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51888.0

Why do you kill the fun.  I love the same old people having the same old arguments over and over and over and over and over...

Oh, wait, yeah, I agree with what the good Dr.  said.

[WarriorDad]

Who scams the system more:

1. Minimum wage worker who pays their required amount - even if zero

2. Millionaire who does everything they can to avoid paying their required amount - through legal, illegal or unethical means

Great question, no simple answer.  Scamming can mean different things for different people.

Someone receiving food stamps or welfar but is spending money on drugs, smart phones and designer bags may be legally ok, but are they ethically?

Someone paying their legal amount of taxes, but spends money to find every loophole in the book are they ethical?

[MU82]

Some folks are very afraid of the welfare recipient who "games the system" to get an extra $15/month to feed her family but aren't the least bit concerned about the billionaire who runs a scam business, bilks thousands of employees and defrauds the government.

[Pakuni]

Why do you kill the fun.  I love the same old people having the same old arguments over and over and over and over and over...

No wonder you spend so much time in the MLB thread.

[buckchuckler]

No wonder you spend so much time in the MLB thread.

Hahah!  Fair enough. 

[Cheeks]

Some folks are very afraid of the welfare recipient who "games the system" to get an extra $15/month to feed her family but aren't the least bit concerned about the billionaire who runs a scam business, bilks thousands of employees and defrauds the government.

Why aren't we afraid of both?  Dollars scammed mean less dollars from those that need it most. 

[jesmu84]

Why aren't we afraid of both?  Dollars scammed mean less dollars from those that need it most.

Do the math and let me know which one has a bigger impact.

Even if there are unseemly things going on by multiple parties, that's doesn't mean it's even "on both sides."

[Cheeks]

Do the math and let me know which one has a bigger impact.

Even if there are unseemly things going on by multiple parties, that's doesn't mean it's even "on both sides."

When a limited pie of funds is available, it matters.  Turn a blind eye to one side doing it means more and more will do it and it isn't fair to those that truly are in need and playing by the rules.  Go after the big fish hardest, but you cannot ignore the others.  Why do we continue to punish rule followers, especially the disadvantaged rule followers? Makes no sense.  It's as if we are telling them they are fools for following the rules, because if you don't follow it we won't do anything about it.  That's what we should be teaching and enforcing?