Vander Clue-lessness

[bma725]

UW is an excellent university. No argument there.
But before deeming them "one of the top schools in the country" I guess we better establish what it means to be "one of the top." Top 20? Top 50? Top 100?
Just using the US News rankings as a measure, UW was in a very respectable 39th place tie this year, including tied for 3rd best among the Big Televen schools and 9th among large state schools. That's terrific.

That said, if UW hoops finishes the year with enough AP poll votes to rank 39th, nobody would be calling them "one of the top teams in the country" and the "North Carolina of the Midwest" when it comes to basketball. At least not with a straight face.

Not a valid comparison.  There are around 350 D1 basketball programs.  There are nearly 2500 4 year colleges. 

[GGGG]

That's interesting.  I think one reason UW has higher admission standards then an OSU or MSU is UW uses it to exclude in-state admits - as out of state students cost just as much to educate, but pay 2-3 x more in tuition then an in-state admission. (Doh!  mu-rara beat me to it!)

And yes, MU and UW are both excellent institutions filling different needs of the education process.

By law, all UW schools are not allowed to enroll more than 25% out of state students.  (Minnesota counts as in-state since they pay in-state tuition.)  They have always been around 20-22%.  Generally out of state students don't squeeze many in state students.

[Pakuni]

Not a valid comparison.  There are around 350 D1 basketball programs.  There are nearly 2500 4 year colleges. 

Except the vast majority of those 2,500 four-year colleges don't qualify for the US News rankings of national universities. Only about 270 of them qualify. So, in fact, there are fewer national universities - at least by that particular publication's standards - than there are D1 basketball programs.

Again, I don't think anybody is discounting the quality of a UW education. Just pointing out that they're not what some of the faithful think they are.

[GoldenWarrior]

Both Madison and Marquette are great educational institutions, but I would not say that either are among the top in the nation or world.  Maybe a few of their programs rank highly, but to me there is no way UW Madison or Marquette for that matter fit into a conversation with Harvard, Standford, MIT, Berkley, etc.

There are different levels of institutions and universities and both MU and UW Madison are very good, but I do think that both sets of alumni and students tend to think they are a little better than what they truly are in all honesty.

[CAINMUTINY]

Just pure hypocracy.....

Very few institutions stick to their academic standards when it comes to athletes.  Look at where it has gotten the Notre Dame football program.....NO WHERE! 

At the end of the day these kids produce a lot for our university and every thing should be done to get them a quality education but no one should be fooled......they come for sports first and academics second.

[Chili]

Just pure hypocracy.....

Very few institutions stick to their academic standards when it comes to athletes.  Look at where it has gotten the Notre Dame football program.....NO WHERE! 

At the end of the day these kids produce a lot for our university and every thing should be done to get them a quality education but no one should be fooled......they come for sports first and academics second.

The only ones I can think of outside of the Ivy and Colonial schools are Stanford, ND, Northwestern and maybe Vandy and Rice.   

[AZWarrior]

Perhaps.  However, the Marquette approach of ensuring players go to class, accompanied by a high graduation rate, is something I've always been proud of.  St Al McGuire said he wanted every player to come out of Marquette better equipped for life than he came in. (or words to that effect)

Contrast our approach with that of Cincinnati under Huggins and I'm very proud to be an MU alum.

[MUinCO]

I do want to just restate that I do believe UW is a great school, with a very good reputation.  Might even be better than Marquette (though personally I would consider it equal), but equal to an Ivy League school, Johns Hopkins, Stanford, ND, BC, MIT, Cal, etc., etc.?  Come on, statements like “Harvard of the mid-west” and top academic school in the nation are just not true and everyone here knows it.  I remember a Michigan alum telling me they were superior academically to Harvard…so you’re telling me if you had a free ride to Wisconsin and a free ride to Harvard sitting on the table anyone in the country would naturally pick Wisconsin?

And all this talk is with respect to scholarship athletes who don’t even fall under regular admission standards in either institution (UW/MU).  

Again, I mean no disrespect to UW…an outstanding public university.

[CrazyEcho]

UW-Madison is a good school.  It's not the "Harvard of the midwest."  Whatever that means.  It's not in the same league as UChicago, Northwestern, Washington University or even Notre Dame in the midwest.  It's not even close to the top private schools on the coasts (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, CalTech, Stanford, MIT).  

When people outside of Wisconsin name top public schools they say "Michigan/Virginia/Berkley/UCLA" and that's it.  Wisconsin isn't even in the discussion.  

You could also substitute "Marquette" for UW-Madison in the first paragraph.  Also, Marquette is not in the discussion for "top" catholic schools--Georgetown/Notre Dame/BC.  

They are both good schools, but neither are top in the midwest nor the best in their respective "niche" be it Public or Catholic.  

It's also laughable to say that either school would reject an athlete who was academically eligible to play.  

[Pakuni]

The only ones I can think of outside of the Ivy and Colonial schools are Stanford, ND, Northwestern and maybe Vandy and Rice.   

No and no.
Neither school admits academic slouches, but both have plenty of athletes who wouldn't stand a snowball's chance at admission if they couldn't run fast/jump high/throw far/hit jumpers.

[MUinCO]

UW-Madison is a good school.  It's not the "Harvard of the midwest."  Whatever that means.  It's not in the same league as UChicago, Northwestern, Washington University or even Notre Dame in the midwest.  It's not even close to the top private schools on the coasts (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, CalTech, Stanford, MIT).  

When people outside of Wisconsin name top public schools they say "Michigan/Virginia/Berkley/UCLA" and that's it.  Wisconsin isn't even in the discussion.  

You could also substitute "Marquette" for UW-Madison in the first paragraph.  Also, Marquette is not in the discussion for "top" catholic schools--Georgetown/Notre Dame/BC.  

They are both good schools, but neither are top in the midwest nor the best in their respective "niche" be it Public or Catholic.  

It's also laughable to say that either school would reject an athlete who was academically eligible to play.  

No and no.
Neither school admits academic slouches, but both have plenty of athletes who wouldn't stand a snowball's chance at admission if they couldn't run fast/jump high/throw far/hit jumpers.

+1  no argument here.

[HoopsMalone]

UW-Madison is a good school.  It's not the "Harvard of the midwest."  Whatever that means.  It's not in the same league as UChicago, Northwestern, Washington University or even Notre Dame in the midwest.  It's not even close to the top private schools on the coasts (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, CalTech, Stanford, MIT).  

When people outside of Wisconsin name top public schools they say "Michigan/Virginia/Berkley/UCLA" and that's it.  Wisconsin isn't even in the discussion.  

You could also substitute "Marquette" for UW-Madison in the first paragraph.  Also, Marquette is not in the discussion for "top" catholic schools--Georgetown/Notre Dame/BC.  

They are both good schools, but neither are top in the midwest nor the best in their respective "niche" be it Public or Catholic.  

It's also laughable to say that either school would reject an athlete who was academically eligible to play.  

Could not have put it better than this. 

Marq is no Notre Dame, Georgetown, or BC and Wisco is no Michigan, Berkely, or UVA.  I would be very proud if my kid chose either MU or Wisco.  Or Illinois, Loyola or whatever.  Neither school is all that prestigious outside of the Midwest (and admittedly not everyone knows where MU even is).  But to try to bash on relatively equal academic institutions is a joke. 

If a Northwestern recruit ends up picking Wisco for football, does that mean he is not smart?  That is basically their logic.  If you choose a school that is ranked lower than yours in US News, you can infer that it was because of academics.  I personally think that is pretty poor logic.

Being proud of your school is different than having an inflated view of it. 

Circling back to the whole point of talking about Wisco's academics is the Vander Blue talking point.  Let them continue to embarass themselves I guess...  We will just enjoy having talented and humble players on Marquette's team. 

[CrazyEcho]

No and no.
Neither school admits academic slouches, but both have plenty of athletes who wouldn't stand a snowball's chance at admission if they couldn't run fast/jump high/throw far/hit jumpers.

Even at ivies and ivy-equivalent (Stanford/Johns Hopkins), it's a totally different standard for admitting athletes.  

[Benny B]

This thread stopped being about Vander and MU basketball many posts ago.  Perhaps the conversation should be continued under a different title and/or in another forum.

[CrazyEcho]

This thread stopped being about Vander and MU basketball many posts ago.  Perhaps the conversation should be continued under a different title and/or in another forum.

I have never seen such rigid adherence to the compartmentalization of posts as I do on this message board.  (OMG is this post not on a Marquette Basketball topic and directly related to the thread in which it is posted?!?!?! we better move it!?!?!?!) 

This thread was about UW-Madison alums arguing that Vander Blue could not get into UW-Madison academically and instead went to Marquette because it has less demanding admissions criteria.  Next, we discussed the relative merits of the two schools academically.  It's not directly related to Marquette basketball, but a logical off-shoot.     

[SaintPaulWarrior]

This thread stopped being about Vander and MU basketball many posts ago.  Perhaps the conversation should be continued under a different title and/or in another forum.

It was never about Vander and MU basketball...it was about a discussion between a MU alum and some UW alums...maybe you should just stop reading it.

[CrazyEcho]

Thread moved.  In my face.

[reinko]

To that group of 4 publics, I would argue UNC belongs.

[ATL MU Warrior]

To that group of 4 publics, I would argue UNC belongs.

Reinko =

[GGGG]

I do want to just restate that I do believe UW is a great school, with a very good reputation.  Might even be better than Marquette (though personally I would consider it equal), but equal to an Ivy League school, Johns Hopkins, Stanford, ND, BC, MIT, Cal, etc., etc.?  Come on, statements like “Harvard of the mid-west” and top academic school in the nation are just not true and everyone here knows it.  I remember a Michigan alum telling me they were superior academically to Harvard…so you’re telling me if you had a free ride to Wisconsin and a free ride to Harvard sitting on the table anyone in the country would naturally pick Wisconsin?

Kids pick schools for all sorts of reasons not just because one is ranked higher than another.  I work at a public University in Indiana.  We have kids all the time that chose us over IU and Purdue for all sorts of reasons - even when they have equal scholarship offers.

A kid from Texas may very well chose UW over Harvard for all sorts of reasons - maybe he liked the campus more.  Maybe he likes the big time athletics.  Maybe he had a good interaction with a professor on his campus visit.  Maybe his girlfriend goes there too.

[Benny B]

A kid from Texas may very well chose UW over Harvard for all sorts of reasons - maybe he liked the campus more.  Maybe he likes the big time athletics.  Maybe he had a good interaction with a professor on his campus visit.  Maybe his girlfriend goes there too.

Maybe he has a warrant for his arrest in Mass.