Negotiating Salary

[dgies9156]

I didn't say that I don't value moral values.

My industry is one where you don't get a significant raise without getting another offer and use it as leverage.  I've had numerous entities solicit my interest (the industry knows this is the practice so you don't get an offer until serious interest has been expressed).  Had I simply feigned interest, I would have gotten offers and could have used them for 20-50% raises.  I have not, because I respect my peers, and will not even express interest unless I'd seriously entertain the offer. 

My employer knows of a list of 5, that if asked, there is a strong chance I leave for.  It is unusual, but those are my values.  That means I'm significantly underpaid, because I'm not playing the game.

Brother Forgetful, I appreciate that and I know that often, you have to be a hot commodity that someone else values to get a reward or other concessions that reflect your worth.

I would challenge you on the sense that leaving for five other firms is a "value." It's a tactic. You are not an indentured servant. You can leave and if someone expresses an interest, guess what, you have leverage. But when you say you're headed out the door and you don't that's another story.

I'll concede that most companies do not do as effective a job as they should mentoring. I have some people who work for me that, given the chance, will go far. Others won't. The key is to communicate effectively and make it clear what has to be done to get to the next level. Often, that means time and time is one thing that Millennials, like we Boomers, thought was in very short supply.

[WarriorDad]

In all honesty, this isn't true anymore. American's don't value honesty or integrity, they value a persons worth based on how rich they are, with the assumption that if you are wealthy that means you got there through hard work, intelligence, and values.

Actual moral values get you a pat on the back, and called a sucker when your boss walks away. 

No idea how we got here, but that is now the reality.

Many broad statements here.

[WarriorDad]

In your day? Are you 97 years old?

Employers have one calling, one goal, one mission: make money. If they deem that the best way to do that is to be loyal and wonderful to employees, that's what they'll do. Unfortunately, many employers do not deem that as anything close to the best way to do it.

I'll get off your yard now, gramps!

More broad statements. 

Actually, not all employers are for profit, so you are wrong with all due respect.  Furthermore, even the for profit companies often have departments, or even divisions that are not meant to be profit centers and employees work in those areas, too. 

I'm sorry your experience is what it was, though you shared an anecdote for the employer stepped up and covered for your 401k shortage.  I have worked for great companies where loyalty mattered, great companies where loyalty didn't matter.  Also for lousy companies.  Overly broad statements don't help here.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Dear lord. Saying no to an offer you preliminarily accepted because the situation changed is not dishonest or immoral.  People change their minds once they get all the facts.  Why should one be unhappy for years with regret?  Rick Majerus did it.  Al did it.  May they burn in hell!

[Benny B]

Dear lord. Saying no to an offer you preliminarily accepted because the situation changed is not dishonest or immoral.  People change their minds once they get all the facts.  Why should one be unhappy for years with regret?  Rick Majerus did it.  Al did it.  May they burn in hell!

+1.  At worst, I'd call it "shady" which is a few notches towards the center on the Blago/Newborn Scale

Blago---Immoral---Deceitful---Dishonest---Misleading---Unethical---Shady---Borderline---Newborn

[warriorchick]

Dear lord. Saying no to an offer you preliminarily accepted because the situation changed is not dishonest or immoral.  People change their minds once they get all the facts.  Why should one be unhappy for years with regret?  Rick Majerus did it.  Al did it.  May they burn in hell!

I think there is a bit of a difference between immediately withdrawing an acceptance after your employer counters and going back for another bite of the apple with the offering employer simply because the pay bump is now smaller.

In any case, I hope 4th has dealt with it one way or another by now, because it's coming up on 2 weeks since his original post.  The longer he waits to do anything other than show up for his new job on the agreed-upon date, the worse he makes it for himself.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I think there is a bit of a difference between immediately withdrawing an acceptance after your employer counters and going back for another bite of the apple with the offering employer simply because the pay bump is now smaller.

In any case, I hope 4th has dealt with it one way or another by now, because it's coming up on 2 weeks since his original post.  The longer he waits to do anything other than show up for his new job on the agreed-upon date, the worse he makes it for himself.

Why? You can do it with a car with Lemon Laws.  You can do it with your house after inspections.  Heck, you can even do it at Walmart on price matching for a roll of toilet paper.  Why not with your job option after all the facts are in or your situation changes? 

Crean did it at IU when he found out the situation he inherited wasn't fully what he was told when he interviewed and initially inked. 

[Benny B]

Why? You can do it with a car with Lemon Laws.  You can do it with your house after inspections.  Heck, you can even do it at Walmart on price matching for a roll of toilet paper.  Why not with your job option after all the facts are in or your situation changes? 

Crean did it at IU when he found out the situation he inherited wasn't fully what he was told when he interviewed and initially inked.

Walmart doesn't price-match anymore, at least not like they used to.  You have to download their app and scan your receipt(s) into the "Savings Catcher" within seven days and hope that Walmart's own "ad trackers" find a lower price somewhere locally.  It's complete garbage, which I guess is ironic considering that just about everything I buy from Walmart anymore ends up in the trash (or the bottom of a lake).

[warriorchick]

Why? You can do it with a car with Lemon Laws.  You can do it with your house after inspections.  Heck, you can even do it at Walmart on price matching for a roll of toilet paper.  Why not with your job option after all the facts are in or your situation changes? 

Crean did it at IU when he found out the situation he inherited wasn't fully what he was told when he interviewed and initially inked.

Could you please PM me your real name in case your resume ever comes across my desk? 

[warriorchick]

Walmart doesn't price-match anymore, at least not like they used to.

4th isn't even price matching, though.  He is saying to Walmart, "I saved 2 bucks by buying it here, but Target lowered its price by a dollar, so now you are going to have to lower your price a dollar so that I am still saving 2 bucks."

[GGGG]

4th isn't even price matching, though.  He is saying to Walmart, "I wsaved 2 bucks by buying it here, but Target lowered its price by a dollar, so now you are going to have to lower your price a dollar so that I am still saving 2 bucks."

But unless I am misreading his latest post, that's not what he is doing.  He received a counter-offer from his current firm, including a signing bonus, and is considering staying.  I don't think he went back to the new firm to get them to up their offer further.

[warriorchick]

But unless I am misreading his latest post, that's not what he is doing.  He received a counter-offer from his current firm, including a signing bonus, and is considering staying.  I don't think he went back to the new firm to get them to up their offer further.

He was asking if he should.

Guys,

I recently accepted an offer for a new position and, when attempting to put in my two weeks at my current firm, got a counter offer (somewhat expected).  My intention is still to go to the new firm, but there is a no longer much of a salary bump because of the counter offer.  Anyone have experience reaching back out to the new firm, explaining the counter offer, and asking for a slightly higher salary than agreed upon? I don't want to ruffle feathers at the new company, but I don't want to leave $$ on the table.

Any suggestions here?

[GGGG]

chick, I think the rest of us were responding to his update.

Here’s where I am at. The counter offer did not go as planned. They matched the offer I had from firm 2, but there is acquisition going on with firm 1 where I am currently at, and I would also get a decent signing bonus (a portion of which is equity of the acquiring firm) if I stay.  This is not a crazy amount, but nonetheless it’s enticing.

I am very seriously considering staying and think it could be a bigger opportunity down the line. I also don’t want to back out of the offer from firm 2, but I believe staying would be the better career decision at the moment.

[warriorchick]

chick, I think the rest of us were responding to his update.

Gotcha. Although I must say that I have been through two acquisitions of firms I worked for, and in both cases, my entire department was s-canned due to "redundancy". If 4th is in any type of support role at his firm, I would think twice about staying. Sure they want him to stay. Who is going to teach the new guys how to do his job?

As an aside: in both cases, the company went straight down the crapper after they got rid of me. I just don't understand why an organization would pay a premium price for a successful, profitable company and then get rid of everyone that made it successful and profitable.

[dgies9156]

Al did it.

Al had a friggin contract and everyone involved knew it.

And when Marquette University said no, Al accepted that he had a contract and moved on to a NatChamp.

He was not employed at will.

[4th and State]

Ended up staying at firm 1.  I just think the potential opportunity is too good to turn down.  Obviously there are risks involved, but in my gut it felt like the right decision.  Thanks to everyone for your input, as there are many different angles to view this from, and many of you who have been in similar situations.

I told firm 2 yesterday about my decision to stay and was very upfront about the situation and how it happened.  The recruiter was disappointed, but understood the decision.  I was expecting him to be very upset, but he just said "these things happen" and have to do what is best if for you.  It went as well as it could have given the situation.

Anyway, thanks to all for sharing your thoughts.

[dgies9156]

As an aside: in both cases, the company went straight down the crapper after they got rid of me. I just don't understand why an organization would pay a premium price for a successful, profitable company and then get rid of everyone that made it successful and profitable.

Sister Chick, the concept is that employes are disposable. Customer relationships are not. Sometimes companies are so hasty to put merger deals together that they fail to see that there is a relationship between good customer relationships and happy, engaged employees.

I don't get it either -- and I work in M&A -- but it happens.

[MU82]

More broad statements. 

Actually, not all employers are for profit, so you are wrong with all due respect.  Furthermore, even the for profit companies often have departments, or even divisions that are not meant to be profit centers and employees work in those areas, too. 

I'm sorry your experience is what it was, though you shared an anecdote for the employer stepped up and covered for your 401k shortage.  I have worked for great companies where loyalty mattered, great companies where loyalty didn't matter.  Also for lousy companies.  Overly broad statements don't help here.

Please show evidence of a corporation - not a non-profit - that doesn't have making money as its primary goal.

[Benny B]

Please show evidence of a corporation - not a non-profit - that doesn't have making money as its primary goal.

Chik-fil-a

[real chili 83]

Please show evidence of a corporation - not a non-profit - that doesn't have making money as its primary goal.

You make that sound like it’s a bad thing.

[Lennys Tap]

You make that sound like it’s a bad thing.

Exactly. People are OK with making THEIR money. In fact, they're OK every time they get more. But the people whose capital make that possible are the bad guys. WTF? Grateful is happy, envy is not.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You make that sound like it’s a bad thing.

Exactly. People are OK with making THEIR money. In fact, they're OK every time they get more. But the people whose capital make that possible are the bad guys. WTF? Grateful is happy, envy is not.

I didn't read 82's comment that way at all. I think he's pointing out how it's ok for business to have making money as their first priority but some look down on employees who have making money as their first priority.

[GGGG]

I didn't read 82's comment that way at all. I think he's pointing out how it's ok for business to have making money as their first priority but some look down on employees who have making money as their first priority.

That's exactly what he was arguing - which would be very obvious if people looked back in the thread.  Chicos was the one suggesting that businesses have some sort of altruistic motive.

And I would also suggest that many not-for-profits still engage in making money has a primary purpose.  While that purpose may be charitable in nature, many will treat their employees no different than a for-profit enterprise would - both positively and negatively.

[Coleman]

Please show evidence of a corporation - not a non-profit - that doesn't have making money as its primary goal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation

https://www.businessinsider.com/danone-planning-to-be-worlds-largest-benefit-corporation-2018-10

[mu03eng]

And I would also suggest that many not-for-profits still engage in making money has a primary purpose.  While that purpose may be charitable in nature, many will treat their employees no different than a for-profit enterprise would - both positively and negatively.

See also: providers, healthcare