COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[pacearrow02]

Some of us have crap to do besides replying to obvious trolls.

1. The policies you have been referring to have been discussed on here ad nauseam, when they were relevant, including by me.

2. There were federal policies stating that nursing home patients discharged from hospitals should be returned to their nursing homes, provided they could be properly cared for. These policies are still in effect nationwide, where nursing homes either still try to handle the patients in house, or accept them back, thereby increasing spread amongst the most vulnerable.

3. There used to be federal polices that held these care facilities liable for not providing proper care and protection in cases exactly like what has led to many of these deaths. These rules were revoked by the current administration by executive action.

So, I've addressed and discussed these issues before, and they are far grander than a political laundry list of democratic governors. The intellectual dishonesty is not examining the entire situations revolving decisions like this, and what factors and policies exist on a nationwide, and federal level. Have mistakes been made, yes, and I've addressed them previously.

Frankly, I have little desire to address anything from you further. So if I don't respond to your replies, it is because in my opinion, you've proven yourself a troll, itching for arguments not honest discussion. Engaging will simply devolve into absurdity, and cause nothing but frustration and futility. That benefits no one.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/07/14/jake-tapper-gov-andrew-cuomo-covid-19-poster-gupta-lead-sot-vpx.cnn

There is an honest discussion to be had about the effects of this state order. 

To ignore an unarguable fact that this was a state directive that has since been rescinded, by the governor just proves you’re nothing more then a partisan hack and not interested in honest discussions.

[Hards Alumni]

Crickets on this one huh forgetful?  Can only muster up that impeccable intellectual integrity of yours when in comes to criticizing political figures you disagree with.

The second it comes to acknowledging terrible mistakes by leaders within your own party it’s predictable silence.

So what do you want?  Someone here to say mistakes were made by Democratic leaders?  No kidding.  Expecting perfection isn't reasonable.  So now you can take your 'gotcha!' moment and run.

All the while failing to acknowledge that we have a massive problem at the federal level, state level, and local level with CONTINUING stupidity from Republican officials.

Just say it.  Trump screwed this up, and is continuing to screw this up.  Brian Kemp is choosing death over life.  But, you, rocket, ners, etc. can't bring yourselves to do it.  It's some sort of taboo with you lunatics.  Like if you admit that 'your guy' is a abject failure of a president there is a bomb in your house that detonates.  It's that insane.  Why do you continue to defend the indefensible?  If Hillary or Biden was elected and acted like this I would be calling them the worst president ever as well.  But that really cuts to the core of the Republican party.  You're all a bunch of dimwit zombies that can't think objectively for themselves.

And its posts like the one I quoted is why we think you're delusional.  I'm happy to bash incompetent leadership no matter the target.  But you can't say the same.  The worst thing I've heard most of the Republicans, who I know, say about Trump is that they'd wish he's stop tweeting so much.  But then that is quickly followed up with, "but the economy is doing great"... or some other excuse for his behavior.  Why????  He doesn't need your defense.  As if by saying it, you're some sort of traitor.

[Pakuni]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/nyregion/nursing-homes-deaths-coronavirus.amp.html

“.....a STATE directive.....” 

So let’s have an honest discussion about whether this was a state or federal order.

[pacearrow02]

So what do you want?  Someone here to say mistakes were made by Democratic leaders?  No kidding.  Expecting perfection isn't reasonable.  So now you can take your 'gotcha!' moment and run.

All the while failing to acknowledge that we have a massive problem at the federal level, state level, and local level with CONTINUING stupidity from Republican officials.

Just say it.  Trump screwed this up, and is continuing to screw this up.  Brian Kemp is choosing death over life.  But, you, rocket, ners, etc. can't bring yourselves to do it.  It's some sort of taboo with you lunatics.  Like if you admit that 'your guy' is a abject failure of a president there is a bomb in your house that detonates.  It's that insane.  Why do you continue to defend the indefensible?  If Hillary or Biden was elected and acted like this I would be calling them the worst president ever as well.  But that really cuts to the core of the Republican party.  You're all a bunch of dimwit zombies that can't think objectively for themselves.

And its posts like the one I quoted is why we think you're delusional.  I'm happy to bash incompetent leadership no matter the target.  But you can't say the same.  The worst thing I've heard most of the Republicans, who I know, say about Trump is that they'd wish he's stop tweeting so much.  But then that is quickly followed up with, "but the economy is doing great"... or some other excuse for his behavior.  Why????  He doesn't need your defense.  As if by saying it, you're some sort of traitor.

Wasn’t a gotcha question.  A response to forgetful saying something about policies killing people without pointing to a specific policy so I assumed he was talking about the nursing home stuff.

I haven’t seen any other specific policy that has been so controversial as that one which is why I brought it up.

[pacearrow02]

So what do you want?  Someone here to say mistakes were made by Democratic leaders?  No kidding.  Expecting perfection isn't reasonable.  So now you can take your 'gotcha!' moment and run.

All the while failing to acknowledge that we have a massive problem at the federal level, state level, and local level with CONTINUING stupidity from Republican officials.

Just say it.  Trump screwed this up, and is continuing to screw this up.  Brian Kemp is choosing death over life.  But, you, rocket, ners, etc. can't bring yourselves to do it.  It's some sort of taboo with you lunatics.  Like if you admit that 'your guy' is a abject failure of a president there is a bomb in your house that detonates.  It's that insane.  Why do you continue to defend the indefensible?  If Hillary or Biden was elected and acted like this I would be calling them the worst president ever as well.  But that really cuts to the core of the Republican party.  You're all a bunch of dimwit zombies that can't think objectively for themselves.

And its posts like the one I quoted is why we think you're delusional.  I'm happy to bash incompetent leadership no matter the target.  But you can't say the same.  The worst thing I've heard most of the Republicans, who I know, say about Trump is that they'd wish he's stop tweeting so much.  But then that is quickly followed up with, "but the economy is doing great"... or some other excuse for his behavior.  Why????  He doesn't need your defense.  As if by saying it, you're some sort of traitor.

It was less then 24 hours ago I was agreeing with you that Kemp was being a knucklehead and I praised the mayor of Atlanta’s response and composure to a tough couple months for her city.

I’ve criticized Trump when’s he deserved criticism.  Just doesn’t deserve it often so it’s hard to come up with examples.

[Hards Alumni]

It was less then 24 hours ago I was agreeing with you that Kemp was being a knucklehead and I praised the mayor of Atlanta’s response and composure to a tough couple months for her city.

I’ve criticized Trump when’s he deserved criticism.  Just doesn’t deserve it often so it’s hard to come up with examples.

Obviously we don't have to agree all the time, but I'm going to strongly disagree with your last sentence.  He has turned us into a laughingstock internationally, and it just gets worse every day.  We move so quickly from one scandal to the next that even a few days seems to feel like an eternity.  I will give the Trump administration credit for one thing, they are masters at distraction.

[pacearrow02]

Obviously we don't have to agree all the time, but I'm going to strongly disagree with your last sentence.  He has turned us into a laughingstock internationally, and it just gets worse every day.  We move so quickly from one scandal to the next that even a few days seems to feel like an eternity.  I will give the Trump administration credit for one thing, they are masters at distraction.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.15.20154294v1

Interesting (non peer reviewed 😯) study suggesting possible herd immunity with only 10-20% of population getting the virus.

May suggest why essentially all of the global hot spots that got hit hard in the first wave are all now doing amazingly well.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.15.20154294v1

Interesting (non peer reviewed 😯) study suggesting possible herd immunity with only 10-20% of population getting the virus.

May suggest why essentially all of the global hot spots that got hit hard in the first wave are all now doing amazingly well.

No. Stop.

It’s because they locked down thoroughly and opened responsibly. Stop trying to find reasons why the obvious answer isn’t the actual answer.

[pbiflyer]

Coronavirus temporarily shutters Florida state EOC as peak hurricane season approaches

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20200717/coronavirus-temporarily-shutters-state-eoc-as-peak-hurricane-season-approaches

Emergency managers are trying to keep key staff healthy as Covid-19 rages into the peak of hurricane season.

A spate of coronavirus cases at Florida’s emergency operations center has forced the building to temporarily close and focused attention on how emergency offices will navigate Covid-19 as peak hurricane season approaches.

Like many emergency managers, Palm Beach County’s Bill Johnson thought the first wave of coronavirus cases would be waning before mid-August, the start of the busy storm season when the tropical Atlantic musters its worst.

Instead, the pandemic has raged on with Johnson now making plans on how to handle a hurricane while keeping key employees healthy and shelters virus-free.

[🏀]

Jamie just cannot quit Scoop

[Big Papi]

No. Stop.

It’s because they locked down thoroughly and opened responsibly. Stop trying to find reasons why the obvious answer isn’t the actual answer.

Can we actually say and prove that wearing masks is 100% the reason and any type of potential herd immunity is at 0%?  I don't think so.  I think there is some sort of immunity and that those areas that have been hit the hardest are fostering some type of herd immunity, at least for the short term.

I wear a mask and believe it helps in slowing down the transmission but its starting to sound like there might be some type of herd immunity forming as well.  I know that they are finding out that antibodies are decreasing or gone in asymptomatic and mild patients after a few months but no one has said there is no immunity.  T-cells are shaping up to be prominent in fighting off infection and there are encouraging information that there are those who never tested positive for COVID-19 that have T-cells that help fight the virus.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity

Can't the answer be both?

[pacearrow02]

No. Stop.

It’s because they locked down thoroughly and opened responsibly. Stop trying to find reasons why the obvious answer isn’t the actual answer.

Oxford epidemiologists think there is something else to it.  Will be interesting to see what shakes out as they look deeper into it fluffy.

[pacearrow02]

Obviously we don't have to agree all the time, but I'm going to strongly disagree with your last sentence.  He has turned us into a laughingstock internationally, and it just gets worse every day.  We move so quickly from one scandal to the next that even a few days seems to feel like an eternity.  I will give the Trump administration credit for one thing, they are masters at distraction.

Certainly been a lot of distractions which over time as details came to the surface of these  scandals have proved to be the media and detractors of this administration jumping to conclusions and spinning things to make them look as bad as possible.

For instance the article below.  I remember the Sunday shows and about 5 continuous days of news coverage lifting up Hogan as one of the good republicans and doing what he had to do despite the dysfunction of the White House to get the tests he needed for his people.  Even had them shipped in the dark of night under police escort in fear of fema intercepting the shipment 😱

Turns out it was all BS, shocker.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/hogan-south-korea-coronavirus-tests/2020/07/16/c0e69ec8-c765-11ea-a99f-3bbdffb1af38_story.html#click=https://t.co/tgcT8mLWNX

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I’ve criticized Trump when’s he deserved criticism.  Just doesn’t deserve it often so it’s hard to come up with examples.

Tip of the hat, that's A level trolling

[forgetful]

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/07/14/jake-tapper-gov-andrew-cuomo-covid-19-poster-gupta-lead-sot-vpx.cnn

There is an honest discussion to be had about the effects of this state order. 

To ignore an unarguable fact that this was a state directive that has since been rescinded, by the governor just proves you’re nothing more then a partisan hack and not interested in honest discussions.

Your response proves you are simply trolling. Never did I say that it wasn't a state directive. It was a state directive, that was consistent with those by states across the nation and following federal CDC recommendations/guidelines.

Where NY failed, was in making the legal language clear. The Federal policies clearly indicated discharged COVID patients should be returned to nursing homes "if they can be properly cared for". The NY policy didn't formally include the quoted language in their directive stating that nursing homes could not refuse to readmit a patient based on their COVID status. They say that was because there was already a long standing statute stating that a nursing home cannot accept patients they cannot properly care for, so the additional language was unnecessary.

That led to confusion in some nursing homes, where they thought the new rule superseded the previous statutes. That is a significant error by Cuomo's administration in not making legal language clear. How many facilities took in patients they knew they couldn't care for, is unknown.

But across the nation, nursing home's are still caring for COVID patients on site, and accepting discharged COVID patients, supposedly provided they can handle the patients. But massive outbreaks at senior care facilities are still rampant, which questions whether proper procedures are being followed.

Now there were also federal guidelines that had significant penalties for not being able to implement infection control, but those were rescinded by the Trump administration.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amid-coronavirus-outbreak-trump-administration-s-proposed-rollback-nursing-home-n1147661

So Cuomo's administration failed in making the legal language clear. Technically their policy, though, was and is exactly the same as the federal guidance, and what is still transpiring across the nation.

Regarding policies of governors killing people. Look at Kemp, who is suing his own Mayors who implement mask ordinances. That is killing people, and is not guided by any rational science or policy. That is what I was referring to.

[pacearrow02]

Can we actually say and prove that wearing masks is 100% the reason and any type of potential herd immunity is at 0%?  I don't think so.  I think there is some sort of immunity and that those areas that have been hit the hardest are fostering some type of herd immunity, at least for the short term.

I wear a mask and believe it helps in slowing down the transmission but its starting to sound like there might be some type of herd immunity forming as well.  I know that they are finding out that antibodies are decreasing or gone in asymptomatic and mild patients after a few months but no one has said there is no immunity.  T-cells are shaping up to be prominent in fighting off infection and there are encouraging information that there are those who never tested positive for COVID-19 that have T-cells that help fight the virus.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity

Can't the answer be both?

That’s what I’m hoping for!!  👍👍

[pacearrow02]

Your response proves you are simply trolling. Never did I say that it wasn't a state directive. It was a state directive, that was consistent with those by states across the nation and following federal CDC recommendations/guidelines.

Where NY failed, was in making the legal language clear. The Federal policies clearly indicated discharged COVID patients should be returned to nursing homes "if they can be properly cared for". The NY policy didn't formally include the quoted language in their directive stating that nursing homes could not refuse to readmit a patient based on their COVID status. They say that was because there was already a long standing statute stating that a nursing home cannot accept patients they cannot properly care for, so the additional language was unnecessary.

That led to confusion in some nursing homes, where they thought the new rule superseded the previous statutes. That is a significant error by Cuomo's administration in not making legal language clear. How many facilities took in patients they knew they couldn't care for, is unknown.

But across the nation, nursing home's are still caring for COVID patients on site, and accepting discharged COVID patients, supposedly provided they can handle the patients. But massive outbreaks at senior care facilities are still rampant, which questions whether proper procedures are being followed.

Now there were also federal guidelines that had significant penalties for not being able to implement infection control, but those were rescinded by the Trump administration.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amid-coronavirus-outbreak-trump-administration-s-proposed-rollback-nursing-home-n1147661

So Cuomo's administration failed in making the legal language clear. Technically their policy, though, was and is exactly the same as the federal guidance, and what is still transpiring across the nation.

Regarding policies of governors killing people. Look at Kemp, who is suing his own Mayors who implement mask ordinances. That is killing people, and is not guided by any rational science or policy. That is what I was referring to.

And on the Kemp/Georgia mask thing we are on the same page.  Stupid move on his part.

[forgetful]

Can we actually say and prove that wearing masks is 100% the reason and any type of potential herd immunity is at 0%?  I don't think so.  I think there is some sort of immunity and that those areas that have been hit the hardest are fostering some type of herd immunity, at least for the short term.

I wear a mask and believe it helps in slowing down the transmission but its starting to sound like there might be some type of herd immunity forming as well.  I know that they are finding out that antibodies are decreasing or gone in asymptomatic and mild patients after a few months but no one has said there is no immunity.  T-cells are shaping up to be prominent in fighting off infection and there are encouraging information that there are those who never tested positive for COVID-19 that have T-cells that help fight the virus.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity

Can't the answer be both?

Reasonable statements, but...

Technically speaking, no the answer cannot be both. That is because "achieving herd immunity" has a specific definition related to that diseases specific threshold. We have not achieved that event at the levels of infection that have been experienced in the "hot spots".

What you are describing, though, is definitely true. As the number of "immune" individuals rises the probability of spreading the disease to others decreases. Since mask wearing also decreases the probability of spreading the disease to others, there can be a combinatorial effect. But where we are at in 99% of the nation, the "infection" levels have been so low that there is really no contribution of "herd immunity" to overall spread. In places like NYC, it is probably high enough that the degree of spread has a combinatorial effect.

The best way I can give an analogy for why this is not "achieving herd immunity" is a chemistry one (which may be useless). In chemistry we define compounds as "Ionic" or "covalent," there is an arbitrary equation based on the Pauling Scale, where they set an arbitrary value of 2, to define the border between Ionic or covalent compounds. Above 2 "ionic", below 2, "covalent". This is analogous to the "herd immunity threshold," which has a specific meaning. Now, it is technically true that compounds with values of less than 2 can have some "ionic character," (e.g. the combinatorial effect with masks leading to "herd immunity character"), but by definition it is not "ionic"/"herd immunity".

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Damning

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-response-failure-leadership.html

[MU82]

Damning

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-response-failure-leadership.html

Wow ... that was an outstanding (albeit sobering and sad) recap of everything that went wrong and why. Reading it, I couldn't help but feeling that Birx will end up being one of the main scapegoats to be sacrificed, just as they're now trying to do with Fauci.

[Big Papi]

Reasonable statements, but...

Technically speaking, no the answer cannot be both. That is because "achieving herd immunity" has a specific definition related to that diseases specific threshold. We have not achieved that event at the levels of infection that have been experienced in the "hot spots".

https://www.yahoo.com/news/uk-may-already-enough-herd-183015155.html

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/uk-may-already-enough-herd-183015155.html

It’s great if true.  I question though the assumption that it’s achieved since so many are immune.  They can still spread. 

I can tell you that Scott Gottleib believes the number is below 80% for many reasons.  But I’ve never heard as low as 20 from him or other docs yet.   

[Pakuni]

This seems inexplicable...

WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Trump administration is trying to block billions of dollars for states to conduct testing and contact tracing in the upcoming coronavirus relief bill, people involved in the talks said Saturday.

The administration is also trying to block billions of dollars that GOP senators want to allocate for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and billions more for the Pentagon and State Department to address the pandemic at home and abroad, the people said.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/trump-administration-seeks-to-block-money-for-testing-tracing-cdc-in-upcoming-virus-relief-bill/

[Jockey]

This seems inexplicable...

WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Trump administration is trying to block billions of dollars for states to conduct testing and contact tracing in the upcoming coronavirus relief bill, people involved in the talks said Saturday.

The administration is also trying to block billions of dollars that GOP senators want to allocate for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and billions more for the Pentagon and State Department to address the pandemic at home and abroad, the people said.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/trump-administration-seeks-to-block-money-for-testing-tracing-cdc-in-upcoming-virus-relief-bill/

Sorry Pakuni, it is not inexplicable in any way.

It is the result of having a mentally ill, evil man in charge. It is exactly what is to be expected. It is what he has said he would do.

140,000 deaths and the expectation of maybe doubling that by year's end, does not even resonate with this guy. He is doing Putin's handiwork - destroy America.

[injuryBug]

This seems inexplicable...

WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Trump administration is trying to block billions of dollars for states to conduct testing and contact tracing in the upcoming coronavirus relief bill, people involved in the talks said Saturday.

The administration is also trying to block billions of dollars that GOP senators want to allocate for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and billions more for the Pentagon and State Department to address the pandemic at home and abroad, the people said.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/trump-administration-seeks-to-block-money-for-testing-tracing-cdc-in-upcoming-virus-relief-bill/

biggest problem to me is the poor contact tracing to this point.  It should be an open book as to how and where people got the virus.  there should be so many more data points made available