COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[Hards Alumni]

He is not a science denier.  This is a smear that the left uses in the same way the right smears us as anti capitalist.  You can do better than this.

Johnson, the science denier, hailed by academics and industry for science funding he pushed for. That isn’t the mark of a man who denies science. https://www.ft.com/content/a9f55188-28d1-11ea-9305-4234e74b0ef3

YOU ARE SO TRANSPARENT, IF YOU'RE GOING TO TRY TO PRETEND TO BE SOMEONE ELSE, YOU NEED TO DO BETTER.

[Hards Alumni]

What if a bunch of people get it again and again?

Well, obviously that is bad.  But there is only sketchy evidence at best that it can happen.

As for a solution there, I don't have one.  And the only suggestion I can think of would not be awesome.

[MU82]

He is not a science denier.  This is a smear that the left uses in the same way the right smears us as anti capitalist.  You can do better than this.

Johnson, the science denier, hailed by academics and industry for science funding he pushed for. That isn’t the mark of a man who denies science. https://www.ft.com/content/a9f55188-28d1-11ea-9305-4234e74b0ef3

He was a science denier when it came to the coronavirus.

Scientists and infectious-disease experts specifically said folks should social distance and that they certainly shouldn't shake hands with infected people.

He not only ignored the science, he flaunted that he did so. He not only shook hands of infected people, he bragged that he would continue doing so.

Not sure why you would want to offer an incorrect defense of somebody who clearly and proudly denied the COVID-19 science.

[forgetful]

There are significant difference between chloroquine and hydroxycholorquine as it relates to side effects.  Both are anti-malarial drugs.  Hydroxy is virtually side-effect free, and there is evidence that it is helping stem the symptoms and reverse Corona effects.  Meds are written off-label all of the time.  The safety/efficacy profile of hydroxy is stellar.  There is virtually NO risk in taking it.

They are different, but it is a bold-faced lie to say that hydroxychloroquine doesn't have side effects and there is "virtually" no risk in taking it, especially at the dosages being prescribed for COVID. For one, it can cause vision loss.

There is also very little evidence, that it is having an effect on COVID at all. The preliminary studies supportive of it are weak at best, and poorly designed studies. Some data has been contradictory, and even suggests it could make things worse in some cases.

Bottom line, we need to wait and see. The early data is not supportive of rushing out and giving this to everyone. Remember, if you give them this treatment, you often rule out then, other treatments that offer equal or better preliminary data.

Trust the scientists.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

He was a science denier when it came to the coronavirus.

Scientists and infectious-disease experts specifically said folks should social distance and that they certainly shouldn't shake hands with infected people.

He not only ignored the science, he flaunted that he did so. He not only shook hands of infected people, he bragged that he would continue doing so.

Not sure why you would want to offer an incorrect defense of somebody who clearly and proudly denied the COVID-19 science.

It's a pretty huge leap to go from "he ignored the advice of scientists" to "he's a science denier." 

Probably should not be hyperbolic with stuff like this.

[StillAWarrior]

I have an honest question, and I hope that my past involvement in my thread will speak for my good faith here.  My understanding for the last several weeks is that it is widely believed that a very pretty significant percentage of people are going to get this virus, and that the various steps we are taking (to a greater or lesser extent depending upon where you reside) are intended to "flatten the curve."  In other words, as I understand it, to slow the rate of infection so as to avoid overwhelming the health care system. The thought is that this will reduce the eventual death rate because people will receive better care and we will not be faced with deciding who gets the last ventilator. But the total number of infections likely would not be reduced all that much.

If that is the case, aren't things progressing fairly closely to plan? In order to get "through" this as quickly as possible, don't we want to flirt with the line of overwhelming the health care system without crossing it?  I understand that the health care system is being taxed, and I believe that is literally inevitable and unavoidable and to be expected.  But if cases are increasing but not to the point of collapse of the health care system, isn't that kind of the plan?

Because of my job, I'm acutely aware of the lack of PPE and am in contact with people every day who are really struggling because of that. The PPE situation is a total disaster.  So, I'm not talking about that.  It just seems to me that as shocking and disturbing as all of this is, it it is progressing according to the plans that were explained to me several weeks ago -- including on this board.  It seems to me that many of the people who understood this and appreciated the danger far earlier than I did -- and explained the entire concept of "flattening the curve" to me -- are now claiming that nothing is being done.  But from my vantage point, we're generally keeping things within the capacities of our (admittedly busy) health care system.

Am I completely crazy or wrong?  And I hope no one will characterize this as me being insensitive to those who are sick or dying. I don't intend it that way.  It's absolutely tragic. I'm just trying to understand where we are and where we are going.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I just read something that "the reinfection" is not reinfection just testing error.
I'd have to re-find the article.

It's been posted twice in this thread alone.

South Korea was giving the all clear to infected people that tested negative twice.  51 people are now testing positive again. 

Maybe rushing ineffective tests out early wasn't the right answer.  Reports that the chinese made tests were giving false negatives in 1 in 5 tests.

[GooooMarquette]

I have an honest question, and I hope that my past involvement in my thread will speak for my good faith here.  My understanding for the last several weeks is that it is widely believed that a very pretty significant percentage of people are going to get this virus, and that the various steps we are taking (to a greater or lesser extent depending upon where you reside) are intended to "flatten the curve."  In other words, as I understand it, to slow the rate of infection so as to avoid overwhelming the health care system. The thought is that this will reduce the eventual death rate because people will receive better care and we will not be faced with deciding who gets the last ventilator. But the total number of infections likely would not be reduced all that much.

If that is the case, aren't things progressing fairly closely to plan? In order to get "through" this as quickly as possible, don't we want to flirt with the line of overwhelming the health care system without crossing it?  I understand that the health care system is being taxed, and I believe that is literally inevitable and unavoidable and to be expected.  But if cases are increasing but not to the point of collapse of the health care system, isn't that kind of the plan?

Because of my job, I'm acutely aware of the lack of PPE and am in contact with people every day who are really struggling because of that. The PPE situation is a total disaster.  So, I'm not talking about that.  It just seems to me that as shocking and disturbing as all of this is, it it is progressing according to the plans that were explained to me several weeks ago -- including on this board.  It seems to me that many of the people who understood this and appreciated the danger far earlier than I did -- and explained the entire concept of "flattening the curve" to me -- are now claiming that nothing is being done.  But from my vantage point, we're generally keeping things within the capacities of our (admittedly busy) health care system.

Am I completely crazy or wrong?  And I hope no one will characterize this as me being insensitive to those who are sick or dying. I don't intend it that way.  It's absolutely tragic. I'm just trying to understand where we are and where we are going.

Yes, given where we are at this point, we are probably pretty close to the best we can do.

The backward-looking criticisms are mainly over the fact that our "best" would have been better if we had implemented testing earlier and more comprehensively. But you're right - given the hand we have right now, the "best" option is to flirt with the line between overwhelming the healthcare system and trashing the economy.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

It's been posted twice in this thread alone.

South Korea was giving the all clear to infected people that tested negative twice.  51 people are now testing positive again. 

Maybe rushing ineffective tests out early wasn't the right answer.  Reports that the chinese made tests were giving false negatives in 1 in 5 tests.

There is a lot in here....

Based on cases and deaths SK is still one of the models on controlling the virus for the free world.  However, they are not immune to the economic and health impacts of a pandemic.  I saw an article on this earlier and will post if I find it again.

The article that JayBee posted was not a proof that reinfection was happening, but called it into question.  Again if this is happening it could be frightening.

So we just have statements...from scoopers...which is about as valuable as having 6 months of TP in your closet.

[StillAWarrior]

Yes, given where we are at this point, we are probably pretty close to the best we can do.

The backward-looking criticisms are mainly over the fact that our "best" would have been better if we had implemented testing earlier and more comprehensively. But you're right - given the hand we have right now, the "best" option is to flirt with the line between overwhelming the healthcare system and trashing the economy.

And it is not my intent to really get into that.  It's been hashed, rehashed and re-rehashed.

What I don't understand is that it seems to me that today we are pretty much where people were hoping we'd be three weeks ago when the term "flattening the curve" really exploded into the lexicon and public understanding.  I understand that a lot of people think that mistakes that were made early in the process led us to an unfortunate place that this was the best that we could hope for. But it seems to me that evidence is beginning to suggest that what we've done over the last three weeks is actually achieving the desired effect, but people are still claiming that nothing has gone right -- even in the last three weeks.  And I genuinely don't understand that position.  People who know more than I do explained what we were hoping to accomplish. It seems like maybe we did a pretty good job of accomplishing that (with significant credit to the states). And the same people are arguing that nothing has been accomplished.

[MU82]

It's a pretty huge leap to go from "he ignored the advice of scientists" to "he's a science denier." 

Probably should not be hyperbolic with stuff like this.

Maybe my wording could have been better, but there is absolutely no doubt that he was denying the COVID-19 science. And bragging about it. And saying he would continue doing it.

[forgetful]

I have an honest question, and I hope that my past involvement in my thread will speak for my good faith here.  My understanding for the last several weeks is that it is widely believed that a very pretty significant percentage of people are going to get this virus, and that the various steps we are taking (to a greater or lesser extent depending upon where you reside) are intended to "flatten the curve."  In other words, as I understand it, to slow the rate of infection so as to avoid overwhelming the health care system. The thought is that this will reduce the eventual death rate because people will receive better care and we will not be faced with deciding who gets the last ventilator. But the total number of infections likely would not be reduced all that much.

If that is the case, aren't things progressing fairly closely to plan? In order to get "through" this as quickly as possible, don't we want to flirt with the line of overwhelming the health care system without crossing it?  I understand that the health care system is being taxed, and I believe that is literally inevitable and unavoidable and to be expected.  But if cases are increasing but not to the point of collapse of the health care system, isn't that kind of the plan?

Because of my job, I'm acutely aware of the lack of PPE and am in contact with people every day who are really struggling because of that. The PPE situation is a total disaster.  So, I'm not talking about that.  It just seems to me that as shocking and disturbing as all of this is, it it is progressing according to the plans that were explained to me several weeks ago -- including on this board.  It seems to me that many of the people who understood this and appreciated the danger far earlier than I did -- and explained the entire concept of "flattening the curve" to me -- are now claiming that nothing is being done.  But from my vantage point, we're generally keeping things within the capacities of our (admittedly busy) health care system.

Am I completely crazy or wrong?  And I hope no one will characterize this as me being insensitive to those who are sick or dying. I don't intend it that way.  It's absolutely tragic. I'm just trying to understand where we are and where we are going.

I think you have it spot on. We are flirting with the edge, but have only crossed it on occasion in places like NYC and New Orleans. Personally I think we have exceeded it, because a lot of people we are sending home should be monitored in a hospital setting, but we don't have the capacity for that (mostly on the medical personnel side).

The fear is that people see things as "not that bad" and either defy the stay-at-home orders, or some start to reopen the economy and undue the accomplishments.

So essentially some underlying fear of the unknown. That isn't going away any time soon.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think you have it spot on. We are flirting with the edge, but have only crossed it on occasion in places like NYC and New Orleans. Personally I think we have exceeded it, because a lot of people we are sending home should be monitored in a hospital setting, but we don't have the capacity for that (mostly on the medical personnel side).

The fear is that people see things as "not that bad" and either defy the stay-at-home orders, or some start to reopen the economy and undue the accomplishments.

So essentially some underlying fear of the unknown. That isn't going away any time soon.

I also think we have given some false impression that all we have to do is spent a few weeks in social isolation and then everything will be back to normal.  But normal is still a pretty long ways off.  "More normal" might be the best we can hope for.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

And it is not my intent to really get into that.  It's been hashed, rehashed and re-rehashed.

What I don't understand is that it seems to me that today we are pretty much where people were hoping we'd be three weeks ago when the term "flattening the curve" really exploded into the lexicon and public understanding.  I understand that a lot of people think that mistakes that were made early in the process led us to a place that this was the best that we could hope for. But it seems to me that evidence is beginning to suggest that what we've done over the last three weeks is actually achieving the desired effect, but people are still claiming that nothing has gone right -- even in the last three weeks.  And I genuinely don't understand that position.  People who know more than I do explained what we were hoping to accomplish. It seems like maybe we did a pretty good job of accomplishing that (with significant credit to the states). And the same people are arguing that nothing has been accomplished.

I think implementing social distancing was the right move with where we were.  I agree, it is working and we should stick with it until things are under control.

I wish we would start debating the plan to manage this going forward (across govt).  It's much more interesting and impactful.  However it seems like we are still debating social distancing (for some reason)

[MU82]

And it is not my intent to really get into that.  It's been hashed, rehashed and re-rehashed.

What I don't understand is that it seems to me that today we are pretty much where people were hoping we'd be three weeks ago when the term "flattening the curve" really exploded into the lexicon and public understanding.  I understand that a lot of people think that mistakes that were made early in the process led us to an unfortunate place that this was the best that we could hope for. But it seems to me that evidence is beginning to suggest that what we've done over the last three weeks is actually achieving the desired effect, but people are still claiming that nothing has gone right -- even in the last three weeks.  And I genuinely don't understand that position.  People who know more than I do explained what we were hoping to accomplish. It seems like maybe we did a pretty good job of accomplishing that (with significant credit to the states). And the same people are arguing that nothing has been accomplished.

Not sure who is arguing that "nothing has been accomplished." Certainly not me. I have posted comments the last day or two that I am encouraged, but that I still think we have a long way to go.

For example, here are economists saying they don't think we are anywhere near being ready to re-open the economy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/business/economy/coronavirus-economy.html?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20200407&instance_id=17436&nl=dealbook&regi_id=108420427&segment_id=24145&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa

[StillAWarrior]

I think you have it spot on. We are flirting with the edge, but have only crossed it on occasion in places like NYC and New Orleans. Personally I think we have exceeded it, because a lot of people we are sending home should be monitored in a hospital setting, but we don't have the capacity for that (mostly on the medical personnel side).

The fear is that people see things as "not that bad" and either defy the stay-at-home orders, or some start to reopen the economy and undue the accomplishments.

So essentially some underlying fear of the unknown. That isn't going away any time soon.

I don't disagree.  And my post wasn't intended at all to be a "it's not that bad" post (and I'm not suggesting you said it is). I'm merely thinking that I'm happy to see that the big steps we all started taking a few weeks ago seem to be having the desired effect and I don't know why so many of the people who explained it to me (both here and elsewhere) are ignoring that.

[StillAWarrior]

Not sure who is arguing that "nothing has been accomplished." Certainly not me. I have posted comments the last day or two that I am encouraged, but that I still think we have a long way to go.

For example, here are economists saying they don't think we are anywhere near being ready to re-open the economy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/business/economy/coronavirus-economy.html?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20200407&instance_id=17436&nl=dealbook&regi_id=108420427&segment_id=24145&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa

I'm not specifically referring to you.

And I'm absolutely not even remotely suggesting we're close to re-opening things.  I figure we're hunkered down until at least June. I've been telling my oldest that she should probably prepare herself to have her senior VB season cancelled.

[GooooMarquette]

Adding to my post above:

I said we are "probably pretty close" to the best we can do given the hand we have been dealt after the initial delays. IMHO, the "ideal" best given our current state would involve:

**A few more weeks of stay at home. Most people assume this is coming, but many states haven't formalized this yet.

**The handful of holdout states issuing stay at home orders, and people staying home on Easter Sunday. Failure to do either could result in overwhelming the healthcare systems in the relevant areas.

**Even when the stay at home orders expire, prohibiting large gatherings like sporting events, concerts and the like. MLB seems to be trying to find a solution along those lines with its possible move to games in AZ, with no fans, and players sequestered in hotels.

**Re-implementing the stay at home once statistical models show we're starting on the upswing again. I am far from the best expert to know when this will be, but I suspect epidemiologists can provide reasonably reliable models as long as we get more comprehensive and timely testing in place.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Not sure why you would want to offer an incorrect defense of somebody who clearly and proudly denied the COVID-19 science.

Because Chicos

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Here is how Germany handles these types of financial situations instead of doing mass layoffs coupled with unemployment benefits.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2020/04/07/828081285/are-we-firing-too-many-people?utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr

[forgetful]

I don't disagree.  And my post wasn't intended at all to be a "it's not that bad" post (and I'm not suggesting you said it is). I'm merely thinking that I'm happy to see that the big steps we all started taking a few weeks ago seem to be having the desired effect and I don't know why so many of the people who explained it to me (both here and elsewhere) are ignoring that.

I hope I'm not one of the ones you think are ignoring that. I'm actually amazed, worldwide, how we have essentially shut everything down. Even places like India, shutting everything down.

It is honestly quite amazing. We could have, and would have had 10's of millions, maybe even 100M dead worldwide from this. But everyone stepped up and followed the models coming out of China, Korea, and Taiwan.

It is honestly quite amazing. I do worry still though, I don't trust people/the world to stay the course. Trying to be hopeful.

[MU82]

I'm not specifically referring to you.

And I'm absolutely not even remotely suggesting we're close to re-opening things.  I figure we're hunkered down until at least June. I've been telling my oldest that she should probably prepare herself to have her senior VB season cancelled.

That sucks that your daughter's VB season will be canceled. All kinds of people are being affected in all kinds of ways. I am not trivializing her situation, because it's genuinely sad when anything anybody was looking forward to is adversely affected by the virus.

Unfortunately, in a report just out:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/live-blog/2020-04-07-coronavirus-news-n1178111

At the start of what officials have warned could be the deadliest week of the coronavirus pandemic, the U.S. recorded more than 1,200 coronavirus deaths in 24 hours, bringing the total number of deaths to nearly 11,000 on Tuesday morning.

[GooooMarquette]

And it is not my intent to really get into that.  It's been hashed, rehashed and re-rehashed.

What I don't understand is that it seems to me that today we are pretty much where people were hoping we'd be three weeks ago when the term "flattening the curve" really exploded into the lexicon and public understanding.  I understand that a lot of people think that mistakes that were made early in the process led us to an unfortunate place that this was the best that we could hope for. But it seems to me that evidence is beginning to suggest that what we've done over the last three weeks is actually achieving the desired effect, but people are still claiming that nothing has gone right -- even in the last three weeks.  And I genuinely don't understand that position.  People who know more than I do explained what we were hoping to accomplish. It seems like maybe we did a pretty good job of accomplishing that (with significant credit to the states). And the same people are arguing that nothing has been accomplished.

The social distancing was definitely the right move given where we are. For that, I definitely compliment the leadership of state governors (both D and R) who have implemented stay at home orders.

As for the complaints, I think they are directed mainly at a few specifics: (1) the continued poor availability of testing, which makes it much harder for experts to model the pandemic; (2) the continued lack of PPE (and the refusal of the federal government to take the lead, resulting in 50 states bidding against each other); and (3) the inconsistent messaging from the administration.

If we can get these things solved, and then listen to the experts on when to reopen (and then to re-close), I think we will be in a much better place.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

The social distancing was definitely the right move given where we are. For that, I definitely compliment the leadership of state governors (both D and R) who have implemented stay at home orders.

Right, the social distancing policy has shown to be effective elsewhere in the world as well as the early hot spots in the U.S. that shut down.  The issue I see is with the idiot governors that still haven't implemented state-wide policies, or in Georgia's case actually issued an order to re-open public beaches.

Someone posted a map showing travel distances based on cell phone records, and the lack of taking this seriously in large segments of the country is what makes me think we'll have a long, rolling peak.

[jesmu84]

Here is how Germany handles these types of financial situations instead of doing mass layoffs coupled with unemployment benefits.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2020/04/07/828081285/are-we-firing-too-many-people?utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr

Would never work here. Too much socialism and not enough corporate welfare.

Edit: Ironically, though, this is what my company is doing. MDs and midlevels are taking 30-80% paycuts. Keeping everyone employed. Lower-level workers are working 1 week on/1 week off and filling with PTO. Fortunately, we will be able to sustain this model for up to 6 months. The hope being, that once we get the okay to go back to normal capacity, we can hit the ground running without having to wait on hiring everyone back.