Crean vs Buzz vs Wojo vs Shaka

[brewcity77]

Boy. Saying Buzz inherited “starters” David Cubillan and Mo Acker in year 2 from Tom Crean is really a stretch. In their first year with Buzz they averaged 2.8 and 1.6 points per game, 1.4 and .5 rebounds per game and 1.8 and .2 assists per game. Yes, they started for Buzz in his second year, but the guys Buzz got from Crean were end of the bench guys, not starters.

Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.

[THRILLHO]

Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.

Your post is insane and Lenny is right

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Your post is insane and Lenny is right

In year two, Buzz inherited three staters on an NCAA tournament team, one of whom was a future first round NBA draft pick.

Pointing out that two of the three didn’t play much in year one is odd because Buzz also inherited the Amigos.

So to summarize, Buzz inherited…

Three seniors who had been starting since their freshman year.

A junior who started for two years, and would eventually start for two additional years and be drafted in the NBA.

Two additional juniors who would start on a NCAA tournament team.

Claiming the cupboard was bare is an insane take.

[Lennys Tap]

Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.

Thanks for the offer, Brew - but I’ll decline. I’ll expand on my point tonight - too busy today.

[Elonsmusk]

I know you have some looney takes, but you can't possibly think that the program was in a worse place when Crean left than it was when he arrived, can you?  You're just trolling at this point, right?

Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived?  Here's the answer:  Nowhere.  I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty.  If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.

Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.

Lenny said it best.  And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.

S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.

Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all.  Very grateful for what he did at MU.  There's no bias against Crean.  I just think Buzz was a better coach.  You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.

[Elonsmusk]

Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.

Absolute tool of a post.  Then again, not surprised you wouldn't think great coaching was why a roster with two midget guards was able to earn a 6 seed. Nor should I be surprised that you'd think inheriting David Cubiallian and Mo Acker formed the ingredients of a full cupboard.  Lazar was the only high major caliber player left on the roster in Year 2.

[MUfan12]

Love that we're arguing a coaching change that happened 16 years ago.

But I will say the coaching job Buzz did in 09-10 was among the best I've seen. It helps having experience but he adjusted to his personnel beautifully.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived?  Here's the answer:  Nowhere.  I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty.  If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.

Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.

Lenny said it best.  And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.

S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.

Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all.  Very grateful for what he did at MU.  There's no bias against Crean.  I just think Buzz was a better coach.  You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.

You said it was “EMPTY.” It wasn’t.

Now I would agree it wasn’t full either, but this isn’t a binary choice. I mean he was literally left with a future NBA draft pick that he got to coach for two seasons.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Love that we're arguing a coaching change that happened 16 years ago.

But I will say the coaching job Buzz did in 09-10 was among the best I've seen. It helps having experience but he adjusted to his personnel beautifully.

Absolutely. That was a fun team to watch.

[Uncle Rico]

Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived?  Here's the answer:  Nowhere.  I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty.  If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.

Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.

Lenny said it best.  And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.

S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.

Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all.  Very grateful for what he did at MU.  There's no bias against Crean.  I just think Buzz was a better coach.  You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.

#fakenews

[brewcity77]

Thanks for the offer, Brew - but I’ll decline. I’ll expand on my point tonight - too busy today.

The simple question is one of facts.

Did Tom Crean recruit David Cubillan? Yes. Did David Cubillan start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Did Tom Crean recruit Maurice Acker? Yes. Did Maurice Acker appear in all 34 games, starting 21, and rank top-5 in total minutes played for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Did Tom Crean recruit Lazar Hayward? Yes. Did Lazar Hayward start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Tom Crean also recruited Joe Fulce, who was committed before Crean left. He started the other 13 games that Acker didn't start.

So by any measure, trying to dispute that Crean left three players that started on the 2009-10 team, which was not Buzz's "Year 1", is simply at odds with reality. Contending such is wrong. This isn't a debate, a discussion, or any form of discourse. They were not starters on Buzz's first team, but in his second year, they were. And Crean left them behind.

Buzz inherited an absolutely loaded team, arguably the most top-to-bottom loaded with talent team since the 1970s. He had four of the top ten scorers in program history, 175/175 starts in 2009 and 103/170 starts in 2010 were inherited players, all good enough to start for top-6 NCAA seeds. We know that because that's what they did.

It's similar to pieces Wojo left for Shaka. Justin Lewis, Greg Elliott, Oso Ighodaro, Stevie Mitchell, and Kam Jones are all guys Wojo gets credit for bringing to Marquette and for leaving "in the cupboard".

This isn't an opinion discussion. It's a fact based one. Hindsight is 20/20, and in this case, there's simply no disputing what we actually know happened.

[Zog from Margo]

At what point does the coach who inherits a player get credit? Oso was an afterthought on Wojo’s roster. I can’t imagine Wojo ever would have played Oso in the role he eventually assumed. Mitchell and Kam had never played D-1 and were completely unproven. At the time Shaka took over, I don’t think anyone would have thought that the cupboard he inherited was full.

I’m very happy Wojo recruited those guys and he deserves credit for identifying them and signing them. I’m just not convinced any of those guys would have been the players they turned out to be had they not played for Shaka.

Similarly, I think most were stunned when Buzz took the team with Cubillan and Acker at guard to the NCAAs. I don’t see Crean getting into the tournament with that roster.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Who gets credit is not what the argument is.

[Zog from Margo]

Who gets credit is not what the argument is.

My mistake.

[wadesworld]

Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived?  Here's the answer:  Nowhere.  I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty.  If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.

Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.

Lenny said it best.  And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.

S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.

Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all.  Very grateful for what he did at MU.  There's no bias against Crean.  I just think Buzz was a better coach.  You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.

5 seeds don’t play 14 seeds round one.

Also, was MU not allowed to recruit during Buzz’s first year? Why was he “forced” to start two small guards his second year?

[Elonsmusk]

The simple question is one of facts.

Did Tom Crean recruit David Cubillan? Yes. Did David Cubillan start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Did Tom Crean recruit Maurice Acker? Yes. Did Maurice Acker appear in all 34 games, starting 21, and rank top-5 in total minutes played for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Did Tom Crean recruit Lazar Hayward? Yes. Did Lazar Hayward start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Tom Crean also recruited Joe Fulce, who was committed before Crean left. He started the other 13 games that Acker didn't start.

So by any measure, trying to dispute that Crean left three players that started on the 2009-10 team, which was not Buzz's "Year 1", is simply at odds with reality. Contending such is wrong. This isn't a debate, a discussion, or any form of discourse. They were not starters on Buzz's first team, but in his second year, they were. And Crean left them behind.

Buzz inherited an absolutely loaded team, arguably the most top-to-bottom loaded with talent team since the 1970s. He had four of the top ten scorers in program history, 175/175 starts in 2009 and 103/170 starts in 2010 were inherited players, all good enough to start for top-6 NCAA seeds. We know that because that's what they did.

It's similar to pieces Wojo left for Shaka. Justin Lewis, Greg Elliott, Oso Ighodaro, Stevie Mitchell, and Kam Jones are all guys Wojo gets credit for bringing to Marquette and for leaving "in the cupboard".

This isn't an opinion discussion. It's a fact based one. Hindsight is 20/20, and in this case, there's simply no disputing what we actually know happened.

LOL

[Elonsmusk]

5 seeds don’t play 14 seeds round one.

Also, was MU not allowed to recruit during Buzz’s first year? Why was he “forced” to start two small guards his second year?

Good catch.  I thought we were a 3 that year.  Nonetheless, stellar coaching job leading a team with DWade to a first round loss against Tulsa.

Do you feel Crean was a better coach than Buzz?  Seems you haven't weighed in on the topic, so lets get your rankings!

[Elonsmusk]

#fakenews

0

[wadesworld]

Good catch.  I thought we were a 3 that year.  Nonetheless, stellar coaching job leading a team with DWade to a first round loss against Tulsa.

Do you feel Crean was a better coach than Buzz?  Seems you haven't weighed in on the topic, so lets get your rankings!

I think Buzz is a better basketball coach, but Crean improved the program more than Buzz did and was a more important coach to the program.

[Uncle Rico]

I think Buzz is a better basketball coach, but Crean improved the program more than Buzz did and was a more important coach to the program.

The more important question is:

Who effing cares?

[MU82]

Good catch.  I thought we were a 3 that year.  Nonetheless, stellar coaching job leading a team with DWade to a first round loss against Tulsa.

Do you feel Crean was a better coach than Buzz?  Seems you haven't weighed in on the topic, so lets get your rankings!

At Indiana, Bobby Knight had stellar coaching jobs in losing first-round NCAA tournament games to double-digit seeds Pepperdine, Boston College, Richmond and Cleveland State. I'm guessing you think he was a pretty good coach.

Hell, Shaka went 9 years without winning a single NCAA tournament game, including a loss to a 14-seeded Abilene Christian team that a Texas squad with 4 NBA players should have beaten by 20+. And I know you think Shaka is a great coach despite that stellar coaching job.

So the argument that Crean was bad because he lost to a 12-seed to end Wade's first college season (and then went to the Final Four one year later) is an interesting one.

Both Williams and Crean contributed a lot to Marquette basketball. Crean left Williams much more talent than most first-year coaches receive to work with: Matthews, James, McNeil, Hayward, Acker, Cubillan, Fulce, Burke.

Williams had two full years at Marquette - one as Crean's assistant, one as the head coach of a talented team - to recruit good players for his own second season. And he did a good job, landing Butler, DJO, Buycks and Maymon.

I'm not sure what the problem is with that Crean-to-Williams handoff.

Also ... this:

The more important question is:

Who effing cares?