Cavaliers Vs Magic

[Murffieus]

Over the years I've mentioned the positives of the "wide post" or "isolation" (as some like to call it). I saw only the first half, but both Lebron James and Dwight Howard put on a great display of getting the ball on the cleared side wide and manipulating their way to score of the one on one or flip the ball back out for the trey off a double team----it's a 50%+ scoring experience.
Now for sure every team isn't endowed with a James or a Howard----but there is no position on the floor where one's quick/athletic #4 and in many cases a #5 or even #3 can line up and have the very best angle to the hoop to break down the defense.

If last night is any indication, it should be a good series with "isolation" or "wide post" playing a very prominent role.

BTW----speaking hypothetically, if I were coaching MU next year, I'd line Lazar up in that position and wide post the opposition to death----he's not as quick a manipulator to the hoop from wide, but he has a very good move there (similar to Vershaw of UW several years ago, but even better). Lazar has to learn to use his left hand more though----both dribbling to his left and finishing with his left hand.

[mviale]

2 of the Top 5 players in the world could win with any offense.

[Murffieus]

2 of the Top 5 players in the world could win with any offense.

Well neither team has done anything in the past----this is the first year Lebron has been lining up wide on the cleared  side-----he's unstoppable from there-----Howard almost as good wide. It's a 50%+  FG percentage experience for both.

[avid1010]

Am I completely missing something or are you advocating clearing out or working the weak side with a James or Howard?  I'm not sure anyone's going to argue that....  Wouldn't you consider many of MU's paint touches, especially to Hayward and Mathews as isolations?  The NBA is all about mis-matches and isolations, I'm watching LA and Gasol take advantage of "bird man" as we speak on the weak side of Jackson's triangle offense.

[Mayor McCheese]

Well neither team has done anything in the past----this is the first year Lebron has been lining up wide on the cleared  side-----he's unstoppable from there-----Howard almost as good wide. It's a 50%+  FG percentage experience for both.

I'm sorry.. apparently making the NBA finals two years ago like what the Cavaliers did is nothing.  If that is nothing, then I am scared what you declare the Milwaukee Bucks.

[ecompt]

Murff, where LeBron plays has nothing to do with Cleveland's success this year. The Cavs wre winning because they added one of the pure shooters in the game, Mo Williams, to the team. Eighty percent of the time LeBron comes out to the top of the key to receive the ball, so he's not playing a wide post, anyway.

[Murffieus]

sorry ecompt----but Lebron's playoff FG percentage has gone from 47% in the regular season to 55% here in the playoffs-----the first i saw Cleveland using Lebron on the wide post has been the playoffs which allows him to get inside more------meanwhile Mo William's trey percentage has dropped frm 38% in the regular season to 33% in the playoffs.

[ecompt]

So you're saying Cleveland revamped its offense in the playoffs after posting the NBA's best record in the regular season? That's absurd.

[Murffieus]

I didn't say Cleveland "revamped" their offense for the playoffs-----what I did say is that Cleveland added Lebron on the wide post for the playoffs-----I had never seen him line up wide during the regular season.

[ecompt]

that's because he didn't, and he isn't now. Cleveland hasn't added LeBron on the wide post, and Mo Williams is absolutely vital to the team's success.

[Murffieus]

I beg your pardon-----when I saw the first Cav/Magic game Lebron must have had 7-8 buckets off the wide post (missed one or two attempts is all-----I'd say that's a very good way to use him)----didn't see the second game----plan to watch tonight.

[ecompt]

Murff, I saw Cleveland play on local TV at least 30 times this season. The offense revolves around LeBron -- he does not play a wide post but comes to meet the ball about 60 percent of the time. The Cavs are so deep they could have won 50 games even if James didn't play a second.

[Mayor McCheese]

Murff, I saw Cleveland play on local TV at least 30 times this season. The offense revolves around LeBron -- he does not play a wide post but comes to meet the ball about 60 percent of the time. The Cavs are so deep they could have won 50 games even if James didn't play a second.

Wait... you say without LeBron that Cavs team still wins 50 games?  Although I agree they have a good nucleus of players around LeBron, there is no star player on that team when you take LeBron out.  Every successful team has at least one franchise player on their team (Kobe with the Lakers, LeBron with the Cavs, Howard on the Magic, Melo with Denver)... I could keep going down the list, even in history.  Without LeBron, the Cavs still make the playoffs, however barely, 6-8 seed.

[avid1010]

I'm still not sure why you highlight the wide post.  Your original post talks about Howard and James, and you say wide post/isolation.  Anywhere you can isolate James is good, and anytime you get get the ball to Howard with a foot in the lane is a done deal.  I still think I'm alright with sticking James in the wide post and forcing him baseline, same with someone like Wade.  If you're going to completely clear out the weak side and let someone like James work, that's not a bad call, but it allows one defender to guard two players, and again you can funnel him baseline to cut of penetration and force a tough pass.  If it's as good as you claim, 50%+, every team would do it, every time.  It's just not that easy...you are not looking at match-ups, defensive schemes, perimeter shooting, etc. 

[Mayor McCheese]

We also forget to mention we are talking about the best player on the planet.  Anything you do for LeBron to get him the ball is the right call.

[ecompt]

Until LeBron wins a title, the best player on the planet plays his ball in Miami.

[chapman]

Until LeBron wins a title, the best player on the planet plays his ball in Miami.

Does Kobe practice down there in the offseason or something?

[ecompt]

As great as Kobe is, he's not even part of this discussion. DWade this year took a team that would have won 12 games without him and carried them into the playoffs.

[avid1010]

I will admit I have a personal hate for Kobe and Labron.  I just don't like their demeanor, and while it probably sounds dumb, they always seem so fake to me because they try so hard to act and talk like Jordan did.  At the start of the play-offs I wasn't too interested because I figured one of them would win a championship, and my gut instinct was always that they both were too dumb to win a championship.  While Orlando and Denver are far from smart teams, if Labron and Kobe were truly special, they would crush those two teams.  Put a team around Wade, hope for good health, and you could win a lot of championships.

[ecompt]

The NBA will get what it wants, though: Kobe and LeBron going for the title. I tried to watch tonight, but gave up when Howard picked up his third foul in about eight minutes of play. The league will reward LeBron for hitting that shot Friday night; that took them off the hook. If he misses that, the league has to see it to the Cavs win four of five.

[Murffieus]

Am I completely missing something or are you advocating clearing out or working the weak side with a James or Howard?  I'm not sure anyone's going to argue that....  Wouldn't you consider many of MU's paint touches, especially to Hayward and Mathews as isolations?  The NBA is all about mis-matches and isolations, I'm watching LA and Gasol take advantage of "bird man" as we speak on the weak side of Jackson's triangle offense.

Wide post/Isolation can be set up either strong or weakside-----in the first game (Magic/Cavs) Lebron and Howard were working the strong side just wide of the lane one on one and were unstoppable------last night i watched 3/4 of the game and neither team used it at all (go figure)------ what makes isolation just wide of the lane generally so successful is that it gives the best angle to the hoop on the floor (if the defense doubles down the ball gets kicked out for the trey)------Barkely popularized it at Phoenix.

Yes to Buzz's credit----Mathews and Hayward did operate out of the wide post/isolation quite a bit his year----so did mcNeal on occasion-----generally off the weak side.

[ecompt]

But, Murff, with the way NBA defenses double on star players, wouldn't the wide post be awfully tough to run?

[avid1010]

The NBA will get what it wants, though: Kobe and LeBron going for the title. I tried to watch tonight, but gave up when Howard picked up his third foul in about eight minutes of play. The league will reward LeBron for hitting that shot Friday night; that took them off the hook. If he misses that, the league has to see it to the Cavs win four of five.

You think it's that bad?  I was watching, and thinking the same thing.  How does a Carmelo/Howard match-up come close to generating the revenue a Kobe/James match-up would.  As Howard picked up BS fouls, it began to make me believe the league is that pathetic.  I remember feeling that way, along with many others, when the Bucks lost in the semi's to Iverson.

On a side note...I am downright sick of any comparison to Jordan between those two.  Look at the teams and players that Jordan beat so consistently, and then you look at the Nuggets and Magic and realize how James and Kobe aren't in the same league, period. 

[reinko]

Avid, I am sorry, but be prepared to be scorched. 

1.) It's spelled LeBron, not LaBron, and if you did that to be funny, where's the joke.
2.) LeBron is with out a doubt the best basketball player in the world.  It's not even a freaking debate.  99.9% of experts agree with this.
3.) LeBron is as clean as whistle, but you have issues with him?  The only piece of dirt on this guy was when he showed up to high school one day in a Hummer. 
4.) You claim Kobe was too stupid to win a championship, do you forget the 3 he already has?
5.) You claim LeBron acts fake and too much like MJ?  Well, MJ is the best player ever in the NBA, so yeah, I imagine he tries to take certain things from him to try to become better.  Jordan was 6'5" 190lbs slasher, insanely good at getting to the hoop, and developed quite possibly one of the greatest jumpers ever, played college ball, won a NCAA championship.  LeBron is 6'9", 245 lbs super freak of an athlete, who really can not be defended one on one by anyone in the league.  So the comparison I see, is they are both black, wear the #23, and sponsored by Nike.
6.) Please stop with the conspiracy theories.  If the NBA was so crooked why would have the boring-ass Spurs won all those titles?  You really can't honestly think David Stern is rigging the league.  If you 100% believe that to be true, yikes.
7.) Do you have any idea what LeBron did this year?  29, 7, and 7.  This playoff series, he is averaging something like 35, 9, 7.  That's just stupid #'s.  Oh, and BTW, he is 24.
8.) And no it's no crazy to start comparing Jordan and LeBron.  I posted this a few weeks back.

Through 6 years in the NBA:

Jordan: 1 MVP, 0 Rings AVG: 31 ppg, 5.5 assists, 6 Rebs
Lebron: 1 MVP TBA Rings Avg: 27.5 ppg, 6.7 assists, 7 rebounds

And LeBron has three years on him since he came straight from HS.  And yes, I know there is more to a player than just a few stats, but both are defense stoppers, I give the edge to Jordan, especially during his title run.  But right now I give the offensive edge to LeBron since he can play and does play the 1-4 at any one time.  LBJ still needs to make that jumper consistent, but Jordan didn't develop his long range shot until a little bit later into his career.

[ecompt]

The only point I would argue, reinko, is when you say LeBron is clearly the best player because he averaged 29, 7 and 7. DWade averaged 30, 5 and 8, shot a better percentage and had more blocks and steals on a team that had nothing but rookies and dogs. DWade was also the best player on last year's Team USA. LeBron is a great player and will undoubtedly be one of the NBA's top 50 all-timers when he's done, but until he averages 35 in the Finals and single-handedly wins a title, there is room for debate as to who is No. 1.

[Murffieus]

But, Murff, with the way NBA defenses double on star players, wouldn't the wide post be awfully tough to run?

Not at all difficult off the double down as there are two remedies----#1 cut the guy who makes the pass to the wide postup from a position midway between the wing & PG positions to the otherside of the floor which gives the wide postup more isolation to work one and one off of. -----#2 rotate the guy who's man is doing the doubling to the sideline for the kick out trey -----the defensive doubler can't recover in time (if they stop the two pointer make them pay with the three).

[Mayor McCheese]

You think it's that bad?  I was watching, and thinking the same thing.  How does a Carmelo/Howard match-up come close to generating the revenue a Kobe/James match-up would.  As Howard picked up BS fouls, it began to make me believe the league is that pathetic.  I remember feeling that way, along with many others, when the Bucks lost in the semi's to Iverson.

On a side note...I am downright sick of any comparison to Jordan between those two.  Look at the teams and players that Jordan beat so consistently, and then you look at the Nuggets and Magic and realize how James and Kobe aren't in the same league, period. 

Wait... so this year's Nuggets and Magic don't compare to the 97 Sonic team and the 98 Jazz team that Jordan's all-star filled Bulls team had to beat?

I get it, Michael Jordan is arguably the best player ever to play basketball.  But stick the '09 LeBron James on those Bulls teams of the mid-90's and you get the same result, the Bulls with the NBA championship.

Ho Grant, Pippen, Armstrong, Paxson on the first three
Rodman, Pippen, Harper on the last three

Jordan's supporting cast was all-star filled, where Kobe's Lakers and LeBron's Cavs are not.  Yes, Mo Williams made the all-star team this year.. is he of Pippen's caliber... or even Ron Harper's?

Is Pau Gasol a better player to have than Dennis Rodman, the best rebounder the league has ever seen?

I understand that Jordan was the best ever, I just wish people would give the rest of his team credit... he didn't win those 6 rings by himself.. where I would argue if James won it this year, it would be just as, if not more, impressive than any single one win by a Jordan Bulls team... with the possible exception of the 72-10 year.

[avid1010]

Wait... so this year's Nuggets and Magic don't compare to the 97 Sonic team and the 98 Jazz team that Jordan's all-star filled Bulls team had to beat?

I get it, Michael Jordan is arguably the best player ever to play basketball.  But stick the '09 LeBron James on those Bulls teams of the mid-90's and you get the same result, the Bulls with the NBA championship.

Ho Grant, Pippen, Armstrong, Paxson on the first three
Rodman, Pippen, Harper on the last three

Jordan's supporting cast was all-star filled, where Kobe's Lakers and LeBron's Cavs are not.  Yes, Mo Williams made the all-star team this year.. is he of Pippen's caliber... or even Ron Harper's?

Is Pau Gasol a better player to have than Dennis Rodman, the best rebounder the league has ever seen?

I understand that Jordan was the best ever, I just wish people would give the rest of his team credit... he didn't win those 6 rings by himself.. where I would argue if James won it this year, it would be just as, if not more, impressive than any single one win by a Jordan Bulls team... with the possible exception of the 72-10 year.

The teams that Labron and Kobe currently have can only be compared to Jordan's team if the competition is equal.  I would argue that Jordan had a much more difficult road to his championships (team members taken into consideration) then Labron or Kobe have this year.  Pippen was average without Jordan, and Jordan said it himself.  Put Labron on those teams and there's no way they win...he doesn't have the game management skills that Jordan has, nor does Kobe.  Wade's championship run was the closest I have ever seen, and there are plenty of statistics to show it was more impressive; however, the competition wasn't as strong.

[Mayor McCheese]

The teams that Labron and Kobe currently have can only be compared to Jordan's team if the competition is equal.  I would argue that Jordan had a much more difficult road to his championships (team members taken into consideration) then Labron or Kobe have this year.  Pippen was average without Jordan, and Jordan said it himself.  Put Labron on those teams and there's no way they win...he doesn't have the game management skills that Jordan has, nor does Kobe.  Wade's championship run was the closest I have ever seen, and there are plenty of statistics to show it was more impressive; however, the competition wasn't as strong.

Again, I am going to argue that the Nuggets and Magic this year are far superior to the 97 Sonics or the 98 Jazz.

Throughout the mid to late 90s... there wasn't much competition in the East as well.  Detroit wasn't what they use to be, the Magic were too young, no one was that good.

To say Pippen was merely average without Jordan, I still want to ask who on the Cavs besides LeBron is half as good as Pippen?  Mo Williams, no thank you.

[reinko]

The teams that Labron and Kobe currently have can only be compared to Jordan's team if the competition is equal.  I would argue that Jordan had a much more difficult road to his championships (team members taken into consideration) then Labron or Kobe have this year.  Pippen was average without Jordan, and Jordan said it himself.  Put Labron on those teams and there's no way they win...he doesn't have the game management skills that Jordan has, nor does Kobe.  Wade's championship run was the closest I have ever seen, and there are plenty of statistics to show it was more impressive; however, the competition wasn't as strong.

This is comical at best.  Last time I checked, Jordan never won a championship without Pippen either.  And less you forget, Pippen was named one of the top 50 players of all time.  And what about Jordan playing with 3 of the top 3 points shooters in NBA history (Hodges, Paxson, and Herr).  Add in Kukoc, a matchup nightmare back in 90's (6'10" Euro that can gun), and you are telling me that you put Bron on those teams and they don't win the championship? 

Name me one player on the '91 Lakers, 92 Trailblazers, 93 Suns, 96 Sonics, 97 or 98 Jazz that could D up on LeBron?  Kemp in his prime, maybe.

[Mayor McCheese]

avid... I get it, you are from Chicago, MJ is the holy land....

But give me a break, the Bulls in the 90s were very good, MJ was the best player on the team, but his teams were stacked...


LeBron could have done the same on those teams, maybe won more because he wouldn't have dabbled with baseball like Jordan.

[reinko]

Dabbled with baseball, aka get  kicked out by Stern for gambling. 

[jmayer1]

avid... I get it, you are from Chicago, MJ is the holy land....

But give me a break, the Bulls in the 90s were very good, MJ was the best player on the team, but his teams were stacked...


LeBron could have done the same on those teams, maybe won more because he wouldn't have dabbled with baseball like Jordan.

The pitfall you are getting into Mayor is comparing Jordan's later, veteran-led teams to the current Lebron teams.  Who knows what type of talent Lebron will have around him in another 10 years, but the current Cleveland team is very similar to the Bulls' '91 championship team. 

Look at the comparisons:

Jordan - Lebron
Pippen (had 1 as appearance as of that finals) - Mo Williams (had 1 as appearance as of this year's playoffs)
Cartwright - Big Z
West, Varejao - Armstrong, Grant
Paxon, King, Hodges..etc - Wally, Wallace, Smith, Gibson, Pavlovic..etc

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html

[reinko]

The pitfall you are getting into Mayor is comparing Jordan's later, veteran-led teams to the current Lebron teams.  Who knows what type of talent Lebron will have around him in another 10 years, but the current Cleveland team is very similar to the Bulls' '91 championship team. 

Look at the comparisons:

Jordan - Lebron
Pippen (had 1 as appearance as of that finals) - Mo Williams (had 1 as appearance as of this year's playoffs)
Cartwright - Big Z
West, Varejao - Armstrong, Grant
Paxon, King, Hodges..etc - Wally, Wallace, Smith, Gibson, Pavlovic..etc

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html

You are missing the point jmayer.  By Illinois State Law, one can not ever make reference to, or allude that anyone ever was as great as thee Michael Jordan. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

You are missing the point jmayer.  By Illinois State Law, one can not ever make reference to, or allude that anyone ever was as great as thee Michael Jordan. 

LOL  Oh how true.  Just like the Laker fans out here (I can't stand them) who actually believe Kobe was innocent of raping that girl in Colorado, believe that the Lakers never foul, were created on the 7th day, etc.   Oh how I want Denver to win this series.

[reinko]

Well, I have finally found MJ's kryptonite...Reebok.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Michael-Jordan-supports-Chicago-rejects-NHL-spo?urn=nhl,165687


Douche.

[avid1010]

Maybe the question should be, could Jordan win with the Cavs or Lakers minus James/Kobe.  I believe it would be just as easy as when he was with the Bulls, and people would be posting about what a great shooters were on the Cavs/Lakers and how good Big Z, Odom, Gasol, etc. were. 

Not from Chicago, and not a Jordan fan at all.  He screwed over his family, and his father's death and decision to play baseball is conspicuous at best. 

Scottie Pippen, top 50, is a joke.  Without Jordan he managed to refuse to enter the final seconds of a crucial playoff game in which the play was supposed to, and did go to, Kukoc for the buzzer beater win.  If you think someone with that mentality is top 50 in the league you're crazy, and that's exactly why Jordan was quoted as saying Pippen couldn't win a championship without him.  MJ managed his ego along with so many of the other players. 

In Jordan's 6 championships he only played in two game sevens.  Neither James or Kobe is capable of managing a team like Jordan was.  To compare teammates is nice, but the argument can be made that the reason all those players were in Chicago was to play with Jordan.  Where is the line of players in Cleveland and LA looking to play with Kobe and Labron.  It all has to be considered.  Kobe and Labron are unbelievable players, but to say that Labron could do as good or better than Jordan if he had his team, and the kid hasn't even won one championship is ridiculous.  Until Kobe and Labron prove they can manage a team they're nothing more than Dan Marino to me.  Although if Marino had Montana's team he could have won all those championships as well.   

[avid1010]

Well, I have finally found MJ's kryptonite...Reebok.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Michael-Jordan-supports-Chicago-rejects-NHL-spo?urn=nhl,165687


Douche.

Let it go buddy.  I didn't enjoy watching Jordan dominate all those years either.  I'm assuming you judge D. Wade the same way?  Please don't tell me you have a business or law degree from MU.

[avid1010]

You are missing the point jmayer.  By Illinois State Law, one can not ever make reference to, or allude that anyone ever was as great as thee Michael Jordan. 

You're missing the point.  You obviously hate Jordan, but jmayer posted good stuff, and instead of having a thoughtful comment you went personal.  Anyone with an college degree who got stuck in a gen. ed. psych class can tell you what that means

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Well, I have finally found MJ's kryptonite...Reebok.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Michael-Jordan-supports-Chicago-rejects-NHL-spo?urn=nhl,165687


Douche.

Douche?  Reebok is his kryptonite?

He is under contract to Nike, he cannot violate his contract.

He did the same thing in the Olympics and covered up the Reebok. 

Pretty simple why he had to do this.

[reinko]

You're missing the point.  You obviously hate Jordan, but jmayer posted good stuff, and instead of having a thoughtful comment you went personal.  Anyone with an college degree who got stuck in a gen. ed. psych class can tell you what that means

I went personal?  I made an effin' joke.  Clearly if you read what I actually wrote, that MJ is the greatest basketball player of all time, and that I don't hate him.  I just disagreed with a lot of your hypothesis' that LeBron is esentially overrated and could never be compared to Jordan, yet if you look at my most, that through 6 seasons in the NBA, stastically, their paths are almost identical. 

And now you bash Pippen, yeah he is an ass, but he also averaged, about 22 pts, 9 boards, and 7 assists for those 6 championship seasons.

And I'll admit the Reebok joke was lame, but if you or Saint Paul Warrior actually read the article, it is not clearly stated that he is forbidden from wearing other companies gear.  LeBron and Kobe don't cover up the adidas logos on their jerseys.  And after rethinking it is kinda douchey that he wore a "Jordan" 'Hawks jersey.  Ever seen a celebrity where a personalized jersey?

 

[avid1010]

Only time will tell.  Right now, Labron reminds me much of what Jordan was prior to him learning how to manage his team....we'll see if he's able to make the changes that Jordan did to turn his ability and statistics into championships.  My money says he won't. 

[reinko]

Fair enough Avid.

/End pissing match

[wadesworld]

The NBA is clearly rigged.  They are doing everything that they can to get the Cavs this win.  Unbelievable officiating to end this game.

[TallTitan34]

The NBA is clearly rigged.  They are doing everything that they can to get the Cavs this win.  Unbelievable officiating to end this game.

The NBA wants their poster boy to actually win something.

[wadesworld]

Yup.  All we've heard about for the past 2 months is Kobe vs. Lebron.  They have those darn puppets for commercials.  I don't see any Magic or Nuggets puppets.  They're trying their hardest to get it.  I think it's going to be Kobe vs. Dwight.  I hope it's 'Melo (or Chauncey...most underrated player in the NBA) vs. Dwight.

[Thomas' Danish Delight]

Yup.  All we've heard about for the past 2 months is Kobe vs. Lebron.  They have those darn puppets for commercials.  I don't see any Magic or Nuggets puppets.  They're trying their hardest to get it.  I think it's going to be Kobe vs. Dwight.  I hope it's 'Melo (or Chauncey...most underrated player in the NBA) vs. Dwight.

+1

I got tired of the Kobe vs. Lebron talk a long time ago, and I'd love to see the Nuggets and Magic in the Finals.

The puppet commercials are kinda funny, though.  I'd like to see some kind of parody on them, though, once the Nuggets and Magic get into the Finals.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Douche?  Reebok is his kryptonite?

He is under contract to Nike, he cannot violate his contract.

He did the same thing in the Olympics and covered up the Reebok.  

Pretty simple why he had to do this.

And a lot of Americans thought it was a cheap move by Jordan and the team back then, too.  I mean, come on.  Wear the US uniform like every other Olympian, including the poor son of a bitch fencer that works 9 to 6 in his day job and gets nothing for it.  The covering it up was BS and I say that of every American that did that during the games.  It was pathetic to watch (and I come from an industry and personal occupation that pays millions to athletes to endorse products....it was the wrong move by the NBA players).

[ChicosBailBonds]

The NBA is clearly rigged.  They are doing everything that they can to get the Cavs this win.  Unbelievable officiating to end this game.

I believe Orlando won.

[wadesworld]

I believe Orlando won.

Yeah, and did you watch the end of that game?  I know there was contact when Lebron fell, but other than Lebron, Kobe, and Dwyane, who gets that call with .5 seconds in the game?  And then Dwight Howard, another All-Star, Team USA player, gets fouled much, MUCH worse than Lebron was on the following inbound pass and nothing is called.

Not to mention the technical fouls.  Lebron can scream and throw his arms around as much as he wants (both in celebration and in complaining at refs), but if Dwight Howard so much as yells after a monster dunk it's a technical foul.

I could throw out any number of videos of bologna fouls in just this series for Lebron (for example...the 3 pointer that Dwight Howard blocked of his within a minute left of game 3, his 6th foul in game 2 I believe, could have been 1, where he was clearly straight up and jumping AWAY from Lebron to avoid contact, etc.)  It's like Wade and the 2006 playoffs all over again.  I loved it then because it was Wade, but at the same time the NBA has their players that they want/need to win and they'll do everything and anything they can to get those teams to win.  The Cavs just couldn't even pull it off with 8 players on the court at a time.

[StillAWarrior]

Yeah, and did you watch the end of that game?  I know there was contact when Lebron fell, but other than Lebron, Kobe, and Dwyane, who gets that call with .5 seconds in the game?  And then Dwight Howard, another All-Star, Team USA player, gets fouled much, MUCH worse than Lebron was on the following inbound pass and nothing is called.

Not to mention the technical fouls.  Lebron can scream and throw his arms around as much as he wants (both in celebration and in complaining at refs), but if Dwight Howard so much as yells after a monster dunk it's a technical foul.

I could throw out any number of videos of bologna fouls in just this series for Lebron (for example...the 3 pointer that Dwight Howard blocked of his within a minute left of game 3, his 6th foul in game 2 I believe, could have been 1, where he was clearly straight up and jumping AWAY from Lebron to avoid contact, etc.)  It's like Wade and the 2006 playoffs all over again.  I loved it then because it was Wade, but at the same time the NBA has their players that they want/need to win and they'll do everything and anything they can to get those teams to win.  The Cavs just couldn't even pull it off with 8 players on the court at a time.

Cavs fan here, so I guess I've got some bias.  But, in the hopes of bolstering my credibility just a bit, I agree that LeBron gets calls that leave me shaking my head (but generally laughing because, after all, I'm a Cavs fan).  That said, Dwight gets calls too.  The last two calls against Varejao were crap.  The blocking call was, at best, a no-call and was arguably a foul on Howard.  The final foul when Howard and LeBron were fighting for the ball was also questionable.  And in my opinion Howard mugged Varejao twice on the final play in regulation.  Varejao had position on him and there is no way that Howard could get to that ball without going over his back -- so he pulled his arm when they were moving under the basket and then pulled him down as the ball got there.

The NBA is a star system and the stars get calls.  I totally agree that LeBron gets ridiculous calls, but I recall several calls that went Howard's way late in that game.

Also, I was pleasantly surprised by the non-call near the end of the game where LeBron tried to get the foul on the pump fake.  He got the defender up of the ground, but was late leaning in on his shot and the defender already had come down when he threw the shot up.  I thought that was a great non-call, and I honestly was shocked that they didn't call a foul given the way they have been calling these games.

[Mayor McCheese]

Yeah, and did you watch the end of that game?  I know there was contact when Lebron fell, but other than Lebron, Kobe, and Dwyane, who gets that call with .5 seconds in the game?  And then Dwight Howard, another All-Star, Team USA player, gets fouled much, MUCH worse than Lebron was on the following inbound pass and nothing is called.

Not to mention the technical fouls.  Lebron can scream and throw his arms around as much as he wants (both in celebration and in complaining at refs), but if Dwight Howard so much as yells after a monster dunk it's a technical foul.

I could throw out any number of videos of bologna fouls in just this series for Lebron (for example...the 3 pointer that Dwight Howard blocked of his within a minute left of game 3, his 6th foul in game 2 I believe, could have been 1, where he was clearly straight up and jumping AWAY from Lebron to avoid contact, etc.)  It's like Wade and the 2006 playoffs all over again.  I loved it then because it was Wade, but at the same time the NBA has their players that they want/need to win and they'll do everything and anything they can to get those teams to win.  The Cavs just couldn't even pull it off with 8 players on the court at a time.

If you thought there should have been a foul called on Varejao on that inbounds play, then thank goodness you are not a ref.  If anything it should have went against Howard.  Varejao had great positioning on Howard, and Howard was the one just pushing Varejao around and grabbing his arm to make it look like he was being fouled.  Defense has the right to get position, do you want Anderson Varejao to just give up the alley-oop, he did it enough in the overtime.

I am also sick of everyone talking about how LeBron gets all the calls.  If you watch, LeBron creates contact, he drives hard, goes up strong, players like that get calls.  Are there some bogus calls (like the Howard block call where he went over the top), yes.  But blown calls happen in every game, when James has the ball for 65% of the Cavs possessions, he will most likely get the call.

[reinko]

I 2nd second McCheese.  You want to know why players like Kobe, LeBron, and Wade get calls?  They can get to spots on the floor that other can't, because they are that good. 

And this whole, the NBA is rigged is a complete joke.  It's a vast conspriacy that only Stern, the hundreds of NBA employees, and dozens of refs know about.  Gimmie a break.

Let's be serious, who wouldn't want to see the Lakers and the Cavs in the Finals? That series would be epic.  The Thuggets play dirty and sloppy and the Magic look like an Ivy league team hoisting up 3's.  But this is just one objective fans view.

On a side note, would a Kenyon Martin puppet have a lips tattoo on the neck??

[ecompt]

I agree that the NBA is not rigged, but it is clearly the most star-friendly sport in the US. Wilt Chamberlain never fouled out of a game, Bill Russell got away with hundreds of goaltends, if you were in the same area code of MJ, it was a foul. The league's double standard is laughable.

[wadesworld]

If you thought there should have been a foul called on Varejao on that inbounds play, then thank goodness you are not a ref.  If anything it should have went against Howard.  Varejao had great positioning on Howard, and Howard was the one just pushing Varejao around and grabbing his arm to make it look like he was being fouled.  Defense has the right to get position

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLv89JDaimY (around the 1:30 mark)
Varejao is pushing him with his left hand from the second it leaves Hedo's hand.  Yes, after Dwight touches the ball he pulls Varejao down with him, definitely, but before that Varejao is pushing him the whole way.  Yes, Varejao was in front of Dwight Howard, but he never even tries to touch the basketball.  He just keeps moving Howard out.  This isn't a box out, it wasn't a shot that went off the rim.  You can't just keep taking a player out as he's trying to jump for the ball.  If he had jumped up to get the ball and Howard had jumped over his back, then I would agree with you, but he never comes close to attempting to play the basketball.

do you want Anderson Varejao to just give up the alley-oop, he did it enough in the overtime.

Apparently that's what the NBA wants any time Lebron James drives to the hoop.  No matter how stationary, straight up and down a defender is, if Lebron runs into him there's a whistle.  The only way not to get called for a foul on a Lebron drive is to literally just run out of the way and not be within 5 feet of him.  See Dwight Howard's 6th foul in game 1...that's how just about every foul on Lebron is.

I didn't meant to say the refs are told to call the game so the Cavs win, I meant that refs give Lebron James (and Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade in 2006) whatever he wants whenever he wants it, and it ruins the game.  It's one main reason I can't stand the NBA.

[StillAWarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLv89JDaimY (around the 1:30 mark)
Varejao is pushing him with his left hand from the second it leaves Hedo's hand.  Yes, after Dwight touches the ball he pulls Varejao down with him, definitely, but before that Varejao is pushing him the whole way.  Yes, Varejao was in front of Dwight Howard, but he never even tries to touch the basketball.  He just keeps moving Howard out.

1:42 mark - Howard is pulling Varejao by the arm trying to get position.  I'm going to go out on a limb and assume we'll agree to disagree.

The only way not to get called for a foul on a Lebron drive is to literally just run out of the way and not be within 5 feet of him.  See Dwight Howard's 6th foul in game 1...that's how just about every foul on Lebron is.

Hyperbole is fun!  Look, I agree Lebron gets calls, but this is just ridiculous.  I also agree with others on this thread who say that Lebron gets some calls because he makes great plays -- gets to openings faster than almost anyone else and the defense is often a split second late getting there.  Just like Kobe, Wade and Howard.

[Mayor McCheese]

I watched the video... I stand by my comment of Howard is more at fault than Varejao.  Its perfect defensive positioning, would love it if one of my players on my team would D up like that.

With LeBron getting calls, I go back to my comment on it is because he creates contact.  As a basketball fan, I love players who create contact, drive hard to the hoop, are strong players with the ball... thats what James is.  Does he get calls... sure, but is it due to his reputation of creating contact, being strong with the ball, without a doubt.  The same holds true if you were to say "Rasheed Wallace attracts technical fouls, even when they are uncalled for"... his reputation gives him that.

It sucks, but its true.

[StillAWarrior]

Kinda sucks that if the Cavaliers come back and win the series, everyone will say that it is only because the NBA wants them in the Finals with the Lakers.  Never mind that they've got the best player on the floor (which always gives you a chance) and that they had the best record in the NBA this season.

[wadesworld]

Kinda sucks that if the Cavaliers come back and win the series, everyone will say that it is only because the NBA wants them in the Finals with the Lakers.  Never mind that they've got the best player on the floor (which always gives you a chance) and that they had the best record in the NBA this season.

Yes they do have the best player which will always allow them to be in the game, but it is clear that the Magic are the better TEAM (but not by far).  If not for 1 of the more ridiculous shots I've ever seen (if taking into account the situation) this series would already be over.  All games have been close, but the Magic have proven to be the better team so far.

[StillAWarrior]

Yes they do have the best player which will always allow them to be in the game, but it is clear that the Magic are the better TEAM (but not by far).  If not for 1 of the more ridiculous shots I've ever seen (if taking into account the situation) this series would already be over.  All games have been close, but the Magic have proven to be the better team so far.

I completely agree.  But the "so far" is what bugs me.  By saying that, you acknowledge that this could change -- and I agree with that too.  I've seen Cleveland play a lot this year, and they've definitely played better basketball than they have played in this series so far.  If they manage to turn things around and play better -- and somehow manage to win the series -- everyone will just say that the NBA wanted them in the finals.

[wadesworld]

I completely agree.  But the "so far" is what bugs me.  By saying that, you acknowledge that this could change -- and I agree with that too.  I've seen Cleveland play a lot this year, and they've definitely played better basketball than they have played in this series so far.  If they manage to turn things around and play better -- and somehow manage to win the series -- everyone will just say that the NBA wanted them in the finals.

Fair enough.  I guess we'll see what happens and know at that point.  If the Cavs win the next 3 in blowouts then that won't be the case, but if the Cavs win the next 3 in close games then you're probably right, fair or not.  If the Magic win 1 of the next 3 then it doesn't really matter.

[reinko]

I hate when David Stern rigs the game so LBJ fill up his stat sheet with a 37, 14, and 12 and straight dominates the last 4 minutes of the game.  Orlando must have laid down, because you know, these games are rigged. 

[muwarrior87]

I'm calling it, rigged or not....the next game Lebron scores 40+ in, the Cavs will lose. This series they've only won when he has scored in the 30's, meaning his teammates are actually carrying part of the load.

[ecompt]

LeBron will shoot 40 free throws the final two games and Cleveland wins.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yeah, and did you watch the end of that game?  I know there was contact when Lebron fell, but other than Lebron, Kobe, and Dwyane, who gets that call with .5 seconds in the game?  And then Dwight Howard, another All-Star, Team USA player, gets fouled much, MUCH worse than Lebron was on the following inbound pass and nothing is called.

Not to mention the technical fouls.  Lebron can scream and throw his arms around as much as he wants (both in celebration and in complaining at refs), but if Dwight Howard so much as yells after a monster dunk it's a technical foul.

I could throw out any number of videos of bologna fouls in just this series for Lebron (for example...the 3 pointer that Dwight Howard blocked of his within a minute left of game 3, his 6th foul in game 2 I believe, could have been 1, where he was clearly straight up and jumping AWAY from Lebron to avoid contact, etc.)  It's like Wade and the 2006 playoffs all over again.  I loved it then because it was Wade, but at the same time the NBA has their players that they want/need to win and they'll do everything and anything they can to get those teams to win.  The Cavs just couldn't even pull it off with 8 players on the court at a time.

But Orlando won, right?