Real MLB Thread

[shoothoops]

Molina was obviously mocking what the opposing team’s players had been doing in the series.

He’s been pretty consistent for 16 seasons that he will stick up for his teammates, community when approached first. He’s actually pretty popular around the league with players, managers, umpires etc...except to some opposing team fans and that can happen in those situations, as well as having a lot of success over that time.

[#UnleashSean]

Molina was obviously mocking what the opposing team’s players had been doing in the series.

He’s been pretty consistent for 16 seasons that he will stick up for his teammates, community when approached first. He’s actually pretty popular around the league with players, managers, umpires etc...except to some opposing team fans and that can happen in those situations, as well as having a lot of success over that time.

That was a lot of words for someone who could be described via one:
Douche

[Jockey]

Molina was obviously mocking what the opposing team’s players had been doing in the series.

He’s been pretty consistent for 16 seasons that he will stick up for his teammates, community when approached first. He’s actually pretty popular around the league with players, managers, umpires etc...except to some opposing team fans and that can happen in those situations, as well as having a lot of success over that time.

Seriously, shoot?

I'm totally sick of these self-righteous old grumps. Do guys like him realize baseball is a "game"? Something kids do for "fun?

If you want to be dead serious all the time, fine -  I have no problem with that. But, Yadier, shut the h*ll up about how others play and enjoy the "game".

[cheebs09]

Molina was obviously mocking what the opposing team’s players had been doing in the series.

He’s been pretty consistent for 16 seasons that he will stick up for his teammates, community when approached first. He’s actually pretty popular around the league with players, managers, umpires etc...except to some opposing team fans and that can happen in those situations, as well as having a lot of success over that time.

Is that why Pujols posed after home runs? To mock the players the Cardinals called out and beaned for doing the same thing? C’mon.

[shoothoops]

Seriously, shoot?

I'm totally sick of these self-righteous old grumps. Do guys like him realize baseball is a "game"? Something kids do for "fun?

If you want to be dead serious all the time, fine -  I have no problem with that. But, Yadier, shut the h*ll up about how others play and enjoy the "game".

I believe he was clearly having fun and celebrating yesterday. What I’m saying is he doesn’t often go around doing things unless it is in response to something/someone else. But yes he has a willingness to be the guy to stick his neck out for a teammate or someone else in response to some thing or someone else, often times it is in response to something someone says. There were some off camera things going on prior to what you saw where some things were said and done. If you also watched, he played the games without getting into it with the other team. It was only in the moment of celebrating that he had some fun. My point was and is that he isn’t an instigator. He will respond sometimes if pushed, yes. Think of that whatever you wish. Much of the time his default demeanor is pretty relaxed, generous, and positive with everyone.

He really doesn’t get into very many disputes. I can think of two others in 16 years with individual opposing players that provoked something. He’s actually one of the biggest playful peacemakers out there. That’s pretty well known around the league.

As I mentioned before, things such as Best Fans in Baseball or Cardinal Way are not things that originated with the Cardinals or in St. Louis. Many St. Louis fans aren’t really interested in any of that kind of stuff. As for particular fans, every fan base has good, bad, indifferent fans.

And, some fans need a scapegoat or enemy of some kind. (See jilted MU fans re: Tom Crean, Buzz Williams, leaving, or whenever Notre Dame or Wisconsin is mentioned)...and I understand that. I’m guessing some of the people with the comments here for Molina or the Cardinals, are Cubs fans and Brewer fans etc...and the Cards have had some success over the years.

Molina’s been successful, 10 playoffs in 16 years. And he’s played a long time, starting young in the majors. I’m sure some would get tired of that.

Take Marquette for example, I just don’t have the animosity for the Badgers or Notre Dame etc...that some others do. I’m not oblivious or inexperienced to it. I’m a Marquette grad, been a season ticket holder, hope Marquette wins almost every game. I’ve been to games of various sports including and not including MU in those places etc...I know there are good, bad, indifferent fans, players etc...

With regards to Yadi, I just mentioned what I knew. I don’t get into too much of the outside things outside of the games themselves.  I’m more interested in why the Cardinals didn’t pitch to McCann Sunday, or what exactly Randy Arozarena has to do for the manager play him a little more.  Or being Surprised Paul Goldschmidt has the highest OPS in MLB history for those with 50 or more AB’s. Or why Martinez was still throwing changeups that were clearly spinning and backing up, when the fastball was working. Things like that.

With regards to the photo I was simply explaining the context. But I’m aware some don’t like the Cardinals because of their success or because of a National Media portrayal of them. Or whatever the reason.

[shoothoops]

Is that why Pujols posed after home runs? To mock the players the Cardinals called out and beaned for doing the same thing? C’mon.

Every person is an individual. We were discussing Molina. Take beaning for example. Tony LaRussa had one simple rule when it came to that. Don’t throw intentionally at a guy’s head. If you throw at him, gotta be in the backside or leg. That of course is common with some managers. Or if you pitcher lacks so much command, that he nearly beans someone multiple times. he’d probably freak out about that too if you didn’t take him out.

So any opinion  I have would have to depend on the individual person or situation or even season etc..

There are definitely some interesting stories out there, behind the scenes things.

[Jockey]

I believe he was clearly having fun and celebrating yesterday. What I’m saying is he doesn’t often go around doing things unless it is in response to something/someone else.

.........

I'll admit I'm a Cards hater, but I'm guessin' I didn't need to tell you that.

I appreciate the response.

[wadesworld]

Lol!

[shoothoops]

I'll admit I'm a Cards hater, but I'm guessin' I didn't need to tell you that.

I appreciate the response.

No worries  👍

[MU82]

I would never say like or respect, other than respect for his ability as a player.  He's an incredible catcher and has been a consistent force for a long time.  But he's also been a magnificent tool and outright douche for most of those years as well.  Beloved by Cardinals fans, but reviled otherwise in my experience.

I am neither a Cards fan nor a Cards hater. I simply appreciate his skill and the passion he plays with.

All the extracurricular stuff, whether he's doing it or somebody else is doing it ... that crud never bothers me.

I will say that if one is an over-the-top celebrator, though, one must be prepared to be mocked sometimes.

[MU82]

I was surprised to hear that Verlander had only pitched on 3 days rest one time in his career before today. And once I heard that, I was surprised the Astros trotted him out there.

Let him get his normal rest and use the future Hall of Famer in Game 5 if necessary. As a bonus, if you win Game 4 without him, you can start him in Game 1 of the ALCS.

I guess it was easier to do with Garret Cole rested and ready for Game 5, but I still didn't like the decision.

[dgies9156]

As the senior resident Cardinals fan in this blog, I really think Yadier Molina is someone special. Defensively he is about as good as it comes and he's a dream at handling pitchers. His average is way up from where it was when he broke into the majors.

Telling a Cubs fan today (who incidentally, wished Molina was in Cub red rather than enemy colors) that among catchers I've seen in my life, about the only ones better were Johnny Bench, maybe Thurman Munson and possibly Manny Sanguillen. I'm partial on the third one only because Sanguillen was the best bad ball hitter in the history of baseball.

Molina is one of the best ever and deserving of the HOF someday.

[MU82]

As the senior resident Cardinals fan in this blog, I really think Yadier Molina is someone special. Defensively he is about as good as it comes and he's a dream at handling pitchers. His average is way up from where it was when he broke into the majors.

Telling a Cubs fan today (who incidentally, wished Molina was in Cub red rather than enemy colors) that among catchers I've seen in my life, about the only ones better were Johnny Bench, maybe Thurman Munson and possibly Manny Sanguillen. I'm partial on the third one only because Sanguillen was the best bad ball hitter in the history of baseball.

Molina is one of the best ever and deserving of the HOF someday.

I was a huge Yankees fan as a kid and loved Munson. But as an objective adult and observer of the game, Molina is a WAAAAY better ballplayer than Munson was. Munson was tough, and was a somewhat better hitter, but Yadi's defense changes games. Munson was a mediocre receiver.

[wadesworld]

https://mobile.twitter.com/MLB/status/850081762889916417?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-42181659011252783946.ampproject.net%2F1910071803120%2Fframe.html

Really hard to figure out how Yadier is so good defensively. Not the only time this has happened with him.

Let me guess. The Cards saw the opponent’s catcher, in full gear, bathing in a tub of super glue so he retaliated in kind. He’d never cheat without someone instigating it.

[Cheeks]

As the senior resident Cardinals fan in this blog, I really think Yadier Molina is someone special. Defensively he is about as good as it comes and he's a dream at handling pitchers. His average is way up from where it was when he broke into the majors.

Telling a Cubs fan today (who incidentally, wished Molina was in Cub red rather than enemy colors) that among catchers I've seen in my life, about the only ones better were Johnny Bench, maybe Thurman Munson and possibly Manny Sanguillen. I'm partial on the third one only because Sanguillen was the best bad ball hitter in the history of baseball.

Molina is one of the best ever and deserving of the HOF someday.

Vlad Guerrero best bad ball hitter I ever saw.

Munson...I feel his death put him higher in ability than reality...JFK syndrome.  Angels had the other two Molina catchers and we won a WS with Bengie.  That family has that position down to a science. 

I’m partial to Pudge, Bench, Fisk, Molina and Carter.  Piazza had his moments, Simmons, and maybe Posey.  Too young to see Yogi and Campanella play

[MU82]

Vlad Guerrero best bad ball hitter I ever saw.

Munson...I feel his death put him higher in ability than reality...JFK syndrome.  Angels had the other two Molina catchers and we won a WS with Bengie.  That family has that position down to a science. 

I’m partial to Pudge, Bench, Fisk, Molina and Carter.  Piazza had his moments, Simmons, and maybe Posey.  Too young to see Yogi and Campanella play

Agree about Munson ... except for the unnecessary political reference.

Pudge Rodriguez was probably the best catcher I've seen, followed by Bench. Yadi is way up there, though several you named were better hitters.

[MU82]

My Ted Simmons story:

When I was a kid reporter, just out of MU, it was the summer of '82 and the Brewers were on their way to winning the pennant. I was working on a national article about the difference between the NL and AL strike zones, and the first player I tried to interview was Simmons. I figured here's a guy who had caught in both leagues and who was a very good hitter, too. And he had the reputation of having the gift of gab. Perfect guy to talk to.

Unbeknownst to me, though, he had a beef with one of the Journal reporters that started a few days before I got to the ballpark. So when I approached him in the clubhouse, he looked at me and said, "Sorry ... nothing personal ... but I'm not talking to the media." I stood there stunned as he turned his back to me at his locker. It took me another hour to get the guts to interview somebody else, but I did finally get all I needed to write the piece.

Whatever his beef was, it apparently got settled, and Simmons was back talking again a week or so later. And when I went to another game to do an article on Charlie Moore -- the catcher turned right-fielder, Simmons saw me, recognized me, apologized for having not talked the previous time, and gave me a great interview about Moore. I also covered the game later that season in which Rickey Henderson set the single-season steals record, and Simmons was the catcher who couldn't throw him out (which put him in good company). Simmons was eloquent that day, too.

[Cheeks]

My Ted Simmons story:

When I was a kid reporter, just out of MU, it was the summer of '82 and the Brewers were on their way to winning the pennant. I was working on a national article about the difference between the NL and AL strike zones, and the first player I tried to interview was Simmons. I figured here's a guy who had caught in both leagues and who was a very good hitter, too. And he had the reputation of having the gift of gab. Perfect guy to talk to.

Unbeknownst to me, though, he had a beef with one of the Journal reporters that started a few days before I got to the ballpark. So when I approached him in the clubhouse, he looked at me and said, "Sorry ... nothing personal ... but I'm not talking to the media." I stood there stunned as he turned his back to me at his locker. It took me another hour to get the guts to interview somebody else, but I did finally get all I needed to write the piece.

Whatever his beef was, it apparently got settled, and Simmons was back talking again a week or so later. And when I went to another game to do an article on Charlie Moore -- the catcher turned right-fielder, Simmons saw me, recognized me, apologized for having not talked the previous time, and gave me a great interview about Moore. I also covered the game later that season in which Rickey Henderson set the single-season steals record, and Simmons was the catcher who couldn't throw him out (which put him in good company). Simmons was eloquent that day, too.

Cool story. Glad he apologized and gave you the time of day ultimately.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think you are both underating Munson.  Not saying he is as good as Bench or Pudge, but I think he has actually been overlooked with the passage of time.  Earlier in his career, when the Yankees weren't very good, he won rookie of the year and was one of the best fielding catchers in the game.  He was AL MVP when the Yankees got back to the Series. 

[shoothoops]

I don’t have a lot of individual award interest, but... Two things that have hurt the Hall of fame chances of Ted Simmons:

1) Didn’t play on a lot of great teams.
2) Didn’t have a great relationship with the media.
3) You could add a third that he didn’t play in a large media market.

He’s one of the more deserving candidates not in the MLB HOF.

It’s one of many reasons to not take Halls of Fame very seriously.

[dgies9156]

My Ted Simmons story:

I also covered the game later that season in which Rickey Henderson set the single-season steals record, and Simmons was the catcher who couldn't throw him out (which put him in good company). Simmons was eloquent that day, too.

At that point in his career, Ted Simmons couldn't throw my cocker spaniel out, much less a major league baseball player. That's why Whitey Herzog traded Simmons from the Cardinals to the Brewers in favor of  Darryl Porter.

Simmons is no more a Hall of Famer than the aforementioned Charlie Moore is. He was a good ballplayer and very active in the St. Louis area. The fans loved him. But he is not up there with Molina, Fisk, Bench, Campenella etc.

Ted Simmons also isn't going into the HOF anytime soon because of his role in free agency. Early in his career, he held out on the basis that an automatic one-year renewal of his contract meant one year, versus the owners' Reserve Clause perspective that it was a perpetual renewal. Simmons had one heck of a year that hold-out year (I think it was 1971 or 1972) and hit the ball like the world was coming to an end. MLB Owners pushed and pushed until Gussie Busch signed him.

Stopping Simmons from testing the Reserve Clause saved the owners about two years.

[MU82]

Interesting discussion on catchers.

Just a few years into his career, he had arm troubles and had trouble throwing to second. He tried to compensate by getting rid of the ball quickly but the ball tended to tail away and his errors increased significantly. He did win Gold Gloves in 73, 74 and 75 based on the other things he brought to the table.

Munson was a good hitter, albeit with little power. He had three straight 100-RBI seasons once the Yankees got good but otherwise wasn't a great run-producer. His Baseball Reference similars: Terry Steinbach, Tim McCarver, Manny Sanguillen. The only reason he got serious Hall consideration is because he was from NY and he died. (And again, I was a huge Yankees/Munson fan back then.)

Simmons probably should have gotten more Hall consideration than he did -- he was eliminated on his first ballot. That one year (1994) came 2 years before I started voting, so don't blame me -- ha! Seriously, he hit well enough that he was a borderline HoFer. I know dgies was being hyperbolic, but he definitely was a better candidate than Charlie Moore. And believe it or not, he actually had a better caught-stealing pct than the overall league many of his years.

I seriously doubt that his role in the Reserve Clause thing hurt him on the BBWAA ballot; if anything, that would have helped his case with the electorate. It might hurt his case with the Veterans' Committee, but I doubt it; many of them are ex-players who benefited from the strong union.

Also, his relationship with the media was fine. He had a few dust-ups, like many did, but he generally was considered approachable and a good quote. So many St. Louis players have made the Hall that I doubt it was because of the market he played in; he was hardly an unknown quantity.

The fact that he didn't play on many teams that reached the postseason certainly could have been a factor. In his only couple of appearances, he had a .635 OPS and .186 average, so he didn't stand out on the big stage.

Simmons' Hall candidacy was similar to a few more recent players: Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, Lance Berkman, Nomar, etc -- very good ballplayers who, for one reason or another, didn't get traction on the ballot and fell off it after one year of not receiving at least 5% of the vote.

[dgies9156]

Interesting discussion on catchers.

Just a few years into his career, he had arm troubles and had trouble throwing to second. He tried to compensate by getting rid of the ball quickly but the ball tended to tail away and his errors increased significantly. He did win Gold Gloves in 73, 74 and 75 based on the other things he brought to the table.

Munson was a good hitter, albeit with little power. He had three straight 100-RBI seasons once the Yankees got good but otherwise wasn't a great run-producer. His Baseball Reference similars: Terry Steinbach, Tim McCarver, Manny Sanguillen. The only reason he got serious Hall consideration is because he was from NY and he died. (And again, I was a huge Yankees/Munson fan back then.)

Simmons probably should have gotten more Hall consideration than he did -- he was eliminated on his first ballot. That one year (1994) came 2 years before I started voting, so don't blame me -- ha! Seriously, he hit well enough that he was a borderline HoFer. I know dgies was being hyperbolic, but he definitely was a better candidate than Charlie Moore. And believe it or not, he actually had a better caught-stealing pct than the overall league many of his years.

I seriously doubt that his role in the Reserve Clause thing hurt him on the BBWAA ballot; if anything, that would have helped his case with the electorate. It might hurt his case with the Veterans' Committee, but I doubt it; many of them are ex-players who benefited from the strong union.

Also, his relationship with the media was fine. He had a few dust-ups, like many did, but he generally was considered approachable and a good quote. So many St. Louis players have made the Hall that I doubt it was because of the market he played in; he was hardly an unknown quantity.

The fact that he didn't play on many teams that reached the postseason certainly could have been a factor. In his only couple of appearances, he had a .635 OPS and .186 average, so he didn't stand out on the big stage.

Simmons' Hall candidacy was similar to a few more recent players: Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, Lance Berkman, Nomar, etc -- very good ballplayers who, for one reason or another, didn't get traction on the ballot and fell off it after one year of not receiving at least 5% of the vote.

Excellent Analysis Brother MU.

My point about Charlie Moore is that I respectfully believe neither belong in the HOF. It's a binary decision and not a relative worth estimation.

You are right about Simmons' bat and I suspect the reserve clause issue may be helpful with today's voters (for anyone who remembers it). I just suspect that if you let Simmons in, you're diminishing the definition of "fame." He probably should be in the Cardinals HOF, if he's not already there, but that's about it.

Otherwise, you take on baseball is interesting and good.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Hey this Charlie Moore highlight happened 37 years ago tomorrow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4sUPspVhig

[shoothoops]

Interesting discussion on catchers.

Just a few years into his career, he had arm troubles and had trouble throwing to second. He tried to compensate by getting rid of the ball quickly but the ball tended to tail away and his errors increased significantly. He did win Gold Gloves in 73, 74 and 75 based on the other things he brought to the table.

Munson was a good hitter, albeit with little power. He had three straight 100-RBI seasons once the Yankees got good but otherwise wasn't a great run-producer. His Baseball Reference similars: Terry Steinbach, Tim McCarver, Manny Sanguillen. The only reason he got serious Hall consideration is because he was from NY and he died. (And again, I was a huge Yankees/Munson fan back then.)

Simmons probably should have gotten more Hall consideration than he did -- he was eliminated on his first ballot. That one year (1994) came 2 years before I started voting, so don't blame me -- ha! Seriously, he hit well enough that he was a borderline HoFer. I know dgies was being hyperbolic, but he definitely was a better candidate than Charlie Moore. And believe it or not, he actually had a better caught-stealing pct than the overall league many of his years.

I seriously doubt that his role in the Reserve Clause thing hurt him on the BBWAA ballot; if anything, that would have helped his case with the electorate. It might hurt his case with the Veterans' Committee, but I doubt it; many of them are ex-players who benefited from the strong union.

Also, his relationship with the media was fine. He had a few dust-ups, like many did, but he generally was considered approachable and a good quote. So many St. Louis players have made the Hall that I doubt it was because of the market he played in; he was hardly an unknown quantity.

The fact that he didn't play on many teams that reached the postseason certainly could have been a factor. In his only couple of appearances, he had a .635 OPS and .186 average, so he didn't stand out on the big stage.

Simmons' Hall candidacy was similar to a few more recent players: Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, Lance Berkman, Nomar, etc -- very good ballplayers who, for one reason or another, didn't get traction on the ballot and fell off it after one year of not receiving at least 5% of the vote.

Simmons is top ten all time WAR for catchers (all other eligible catchers in top ten are in HOF) He is 2nd all time for catchers in hits and RBI’s...etc...He’s a good candidate.

With regards to the other things, yes it does matter with regards to media markets and popularity with media. A borderline candidate will have more challenges. A close friend of mine has been a long time MLB and NFL HOF voter. So I have a little bit of an idea of what their experience is with the process and players.

Guys like Jim Edmonds, Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright etc...are Hall of the very good type players not HOF. Or more simply put they are or will be in the Cardinals team HOF which has a handful of candidates annually.

Simmons did suffer from playing at a similar time with a few of the all time catching greats.