Real MLB Thread

[wadesworld]

Agreeing with a cardinals fan? Well crap

I'm pretty sure JWags isn't a Cardinals fan...

[MU82]

Only Cubs fans are allowed to act like their team has done something when they haven't in a century.

I have no horse in the Cubs-Brewers debate, but to be fair, wades, the Cubs HAVE done something fairly recently. Very few people made more fun of the Cubbies being losers than I did when I was living and working in Chicago from 1994-2010  ... but they DID win a championship in 2016. To claim they've done nothing in a century when just 3 years ago they won what every team in baseball wants to win is not very honest.

Doubly true for the Cubs?  Lol!

You missed Baez for 15 games.  You missed Rizzo for 3 games.  And now you'll miss Kris Bryant for the final 3 games of the season after you're essentially already eliminated from the Playoffs.

One team overcame much lengthier injuries.  The other completely folded.

That, of course, is true.

I just find it funny that the Cubs win one title in 108 years and suddenly they’re so far superior to the Brewers that the Brewers should never be talking about the Cubs losing history. Especially when the Cubs were sitting 5 games up of the Brewers AGAIN with less than a month to play and a payroll of nearly $100M more than the Brewers. 2016 was supposed to be the start of a Cubs dynasty. At least last year they got it to a game 163.

But I appreciate the good luck wishes. Everything is gravy in my books. This Brewers team stinks and we’re going to the Playoffs. Pretty remarkable given over the final 2 months seasons we missed multiple weeks of our MVP, our 2nd and 4th best hitters, and our best pitcher, plus our closer missed the entire season.

As is all of the above, especially about the coming Cubbie Dynasty. Reminds me of the Bear Dynasty that was supposed to have begun in 1985.

Crew fans understand that sustained success will be somewhat fleeting when playing in the smallest market in the league.  There is zero chance our guys can win pennants and world series every year because it's impossible for us to buy talent.  This discussion came up in the NFL thread where a national TV contract and a hard salary cap make nearly perfect economic leveling possible.  That will never happen in baseball.

So what we've learned to enjoy is when our rival dumps a bajillion dollars into some loser (and you have to admit that the Cubs have an awfully impressive record in that regard) and when we beat them over a game, series or year.  For many Brewers fans, game 163 last year was a highlight we won't soon forget.  Was that a WS win?  Of course not.  But it was a little like when the pretty cheerleader went to the dance with us rather than going with the star QB.

Enjoy the off season.  We still have some ball to play and will relish every moment it extends into October, be it one game or an extended run.   

Thanks for this perspective, glow.

[CTWarrior]

Glow, as a Yankee fan I get it. The Yanks spent bajillion on Stanton. He has played in about a dozen games this year, yet he'll probably be on the roster for the playoffs, taking a spot for a player who played most of the season and got them into the post season. If it happens it is just sickening to me.

As a Red Sox fan, in the playoffs last year the Yankees had a bunch of scary hitters, but I felt relieved every time Stanton came up.  He had some of the worst ABs you will ever see.  You didn't need to throw a strike when he was up in a big spot.

[🏀]

As is all of the above, especially about the coming Cubbie Dynasty. Reminds me of the Bear Dynasty that was supposed to have begun in 1985.

Unfortunately, this is gross.

[MU82]

Unfortunately, this is gross.

Fewer teams in sports history wasted more talent for more years than the late-80s Bears did. Rarely has there been a case of a bunch of guys who became all about me-me-me to the detriment of the team, and it started at the top with the coach.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Fewer teams in sports history wasted more talent for more years than the late-80s Bears did. Rarely has there been a case of a bunch of guys who became all about me-me-me to the detriment of the team, and it started at the top with the coach.

It's not like they were bad by any means.  After their Super Bowl, they finished 14-2, 11-4 and 12-4 and had the #2, #2 and #1 seed in the NFC Playoffs.  They ended up losing playoff games at home each of those years (to the Skins, Skins and Niners)

I just think dynasties are easy to predict but hard to achieve.  (Packer fan here looking at both 1996 and 2010 and sighing.)

[MU82]

It's not like they were bad by any means.  After their Super Bowl, they finished 14-2, 11-4 and 12-4 and had the #2, #2 and #1 seed in the NFC Playoffs.  They ended up losing playoff games at home each of those years (to the Skins, Skins and Niners)

I just think dynasties are easy to predict but hard to achieve.  (Packer fan here looking at both 1996 and 2010 and sighing.)

They absolutely weren't bad. But when you get that level of talent - and, unlike those Packers IMHO, it was once-in-a-generation talent the Bears had - it's all about championships. And the Bears couldn't even get back to a Super Bowl, let alone win one.

Totally agree with your line about dynasties. It's why I don't hold it against Phil Jackson that he had Michael and Scottie and Kobe and Shaq, or why I don't hold it against Torre that he had all that high-price Yankee talent. Yes, those guys had great players to work with, but you still have to win year after year when everybody is gunning for you.

Jackson and Torre did. Ditka did not despite all the regular-season wins and generational talent.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Trash talking over who gets the right to play in a game where the winner gets trucked by the Dodgers...

Yeah, that likely seems the case but Chance of Not Getting Trucked is better than Sitting at Home After Collapsing

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

They absolutely weren't bad. But when you get that level of talent - and, unlike those Packers IMHO, it was once-in-a-generation talent the Bears had - it's all about championships. And the Bears couldn't even get back to a Super Bowl, let alone win one.

Totally agree with your line about dynasties. It's why I don't hold it against Phil Jackson that he had Michael and Scottie and Kobe and Shaq, or why I don't hold it against Torre that he had all that high-price Yankee talent. Yes, those guys had great players to work with, but you still have to win year after year when everybody is gunning for you.

Jackson and Torre did. Ditka did not despite all the regular-season wins and generational talent.

Which is why I think it is odd how muted Bruce Bochy's retirement has been.  Three World Series championships in five years these days is an incredible accomplishment.

[GB Warrior]

Trash talking over who gets the right to play in a game where the winner gets trucked by the Dodgers...

This has been true for more than half the season, and is also probable for both of the other division winners. I'd put the over/under on Dodgers losses before the WS at like 2.5.

None of this makes the Cubs' repeated ability to shoot themselves in the dick any less funny.

[MUBurrow]

As a Red Sox fan, in the playoffs last year the Yankees had a bunch of scary hitters, but I felt relieved every time Stanton came up.  He had some of the worst ABs you will ever see.  You didn't need to throw a strike when he was up in a big spot.

All these injuries have really hurt his development as a hitter. His entire career to date, the more games he plays in a season, the higher his average is that year. Maybe not too unusual for guys battling injuries to have poorer results, but for a young hitter with that much power, have to think his inability to stay on the field has hurt his hit tool development.

[MU82]

Which is why I think it is odd how muted Bruce Bochy's retirement has been.  Three World Series championships in five years these days is an incredible accomplishment.

Not quite a dynasty, but close.

Hey, at least he got to keep his job. Joel Quenneville accomplished similar with the Blackhawks (3 titles in 6 years for a franchise that hadn't won in nearly a half-century) but was sent packing after the Hawks won less in great part because they faced a salary-cap reckoning. He didn't suddenly become a bad coach, though as Phil Jackson used to say every coach has a "shelf life."

Maddon probably hit his shelf life with the Cubbies. Ozzie certainly did with the White Sox. Eventually, the zillionaires under a leader's employ tune him out.

[Benny B]

There is no meaningful time period over more than a year or two where the Brewers have outperformed the Cubs in playoff appearances, or division titles, or whatever....

There are a few hundred combinations of professional sports teams you could throw into an equation like this and have it be true.

Heck... basically, all you've done is set aside the true dynasties and grossly oversimplify everyone else.

[JWags85]

There are a few hundred combinations of professional sports teams you could throw into an equation like this and have it be true.

Heck... basically, all you've done is set aside the true dynasties and grossly oversimplify everyone else.

That’s fine, but to me it’s relevant when one team who is lacking in success mocks the failings of their more successful rival. A Vikings fan mocking the Packers “waste” of Rodgers prime, when they won 1 playoff game and the Packers won a SB and twice as many division titles in that time, would elicit the exact same reaction from me

[wadesworld]

That’s fine, but to me it’s relevant when one team who is lacking in success mocks the failings of their more successful rival. A Vikings fan mocking the Packers “waste” of Rodgers prime, when they won 1 playoff game and the Packers won a SB and twice as many division titles in that time, would elicit the exact same reaction from me

Or a Bears fan talking about the Packers only getting two Super Bowls out of two all time great QBs?

It's sports.  If you really don't think a fanbase can have some fun at the expense of a more successful rival then you're missing out on being a sports fan.  Not to mention it's not like the Cubs are some all time great franchise.  We're not talking Rays fans making fun of the Yankees here.  We're talking about an unsuccessful franchise's fanbase having some fun with another unsuccessful franchise's fanbase when they've went back to back years of blowing 5+ game leads in September on them.  If you're going to be doing a "magic number countdown" every time your team is good don't be surprised if your *non* rival's fans ask where it is if things aren't going so great.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but not sorry.

[jsglow]

That’s fine, but to me it’s relevant when one team who is lacking in success mocks the failings of their more successful rival. A Vikings fan mocking the Packers “waste” of Rodgers prime, when they won 1 playoff game and the Packers won a SB and twice as many division titles in that time, would elicit the exact same reaction from me

So I guess it's okay for the Cubs to be mocked by the Cardinal fans?  Wades seemingly had both feet inbounds here JWags.  I haven't gone back to look at the history but if you've chirped (totally legitimately) about Cubs success when it happens right now the answer is 'Yeah, you got me.'  It's all fun brother. 

[JWags85]

Or a Bears fan talking about the Packers only getting two Super Bowls out of two all time great QBs?

It's sports.  If you really don't think a fanbase can have some fun at the expense of a more successful rival then you're missing out on being a sports fan.  Not to mention it's not like the Cubs are some all time great franchise.  We're not talking Rays fans making fun of the Yankees here.  We're talking about an unsuccessful franchise's fanbase having some fun with another unsuccessful franchise's fanbase when they've went back to back years of blowing 5+ game leads in September on them.  If you're going to be doing a "magic number countdown" every time your team is good don't be surprised if your *non* rival's fans ask where it is in things aren't going so great.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but not sorry.

Bears fans who do that are idiots too. Same ones who hold on to 1985 like it’s the cure for cancer. It doesn’t hurt my feelings, I just think it’s dumb.

So I guess it's okay for the Cubs to be mocked by the Cardinal fans?  Wades seemingly had both feet inbounds here JWags.  I haven't gone back to look at the history but if you've chirped (totally legitimately) about Cubs success when it happens right now the answer is 'Yeah, you got me.'  It's all fun brother. 

How did I get framed as a Cardinals fan?    Thats twice on that misperception now.

And i think Cardinals fans are lame cause of their “BFIB” nonsense and thinking they have some moral fan superiority. But in terms of mocking and digging the Cubs from a results standpoint, they have all the success and credibility to do so, as much as it pains me to say it.

[jsglow]

Bears fans who do that are idiots too. Same ones who hold on to 1985 like it’s the cure for cancer. It doesn’t hurt my feelings, I just think it’s dumb.

How did I get framed as a Cardinals fan?    Thats twice on that misperception now.

And i think Cardinals fans are lame cause of their “BFIB” nonsense and thinking they have some moral fan superiority. But in terms of mocking and digging the Cubs from a results standpoint, they have all the success and credibility to do so, as much as it pains me to say it.

You misunderstand me, my friend.  I'm thinking that by your logic some good-natured ribbing FROM a Cardinals fan would be okay because, well, they have a history a Cubs fan like you can only dream of.

Trust me.  I'm going full barrel on dgies when we take 'em down in October.   
Shut up about '82 dgies!!   

[StillAWarrior]

Bears fans who do that are idiots too.

News flash:  all sports fans are idiots.  It's in our very nature.

[JWags85]

You misunderstand me, my friend.  I'm thinking that by your logic some good-natured ribbing FROM a Cardinals fan would be okay because, well, they have a history a Cubs fan like you can only dream of.

Trust me.  I'm going full barrel on dgies when we take 'em down in October.   
Shut up about '82 dgies!!   

Fair enough. I wouldn’t like it, but they have the cache. Too often they waste it with stuff like “well, in STL, we know not to get excited about September. Us Redbird aficionados know the true talent rises in the late stages. Fans at Busch chuckle at fans of those NL foes who get stressed over playoff races”

[WarriorDad]

Lack of moves? In regards to what exactly?

This view captured it well.  The team did what they were built to do and management did not build this team for bigger success this season.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/2019/9/21/20877470/any-reckoning-should-start-at-top-for-a-cubs-team-that-performed-as-well-as-its-roster-was-built

[MUBurrow]

This view captured it well.  The team did what they were built to do and management did not build this team for bigger success this season.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/2019/9/21/20877470/any-reckoning-should-start-at-top-for-a-cubs-team-that-performed-as-well-as-its-roster-was-built

Lester's tough go (the numbers actually show he's probably been more unlucky than straight bad), combined with Darvish's strange season, both in the same year, really hurt the Cubs. Its hard to believe, but Darvish will finish with almost identical numbers - and arguably better underlying stats - than his 2017 season when he was worth 3.7 WAR. This year? 2.6.  I'm not smart enough to know for sure, but I would guess that has something to do with his inconsisent starts (some great, some awful during his swoon)? Given the state of pitching, I would have guessed that 2017 pitching numbers are worth more in WAR now than they were then. 

[MU82]

Lester's tough go (the numbers actually show he's probably been more unlucky than straight bad)

Hmmm. 4.51 ERA - second worst of his career since he became a full-time big-leaguer in 2008. Career worst 1.5 WHIP, worst among NL qualifiers. Second in the NL in hits allowed. Career high HR allowed. 5.55 ERA since the ASB.

That's a lot of bad luck!

In August and September, he has a 6.45 ERA, allowing a .921 OPS and .330 BA. He might be lucky to be 4-4 in those two months.

[Dr. Blackheart]

This view captured it well.  The team did what they were built to do and management did not build this team for bigger success this season.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/2019/9/21/20877470/any-reckoning-should-start-at-top-for-a-cubs-team-that-performed-as-well-as-its-roster-was-built

Cheeky,

Thanks for following along.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=post;quote=1157544;topic=58961.550;last_msg=1157843

[Jockey]

Nm