Real MLB Thread

[jsglow]

Literally, three of your points are that you have the best fans in baseball.

This is why the joke exists.

But Titan, they actually do.  I think I pointed out why.  Are they the Yankees, Dodgers, Giants? Perhaps not.  But great fans and a great historic franchise?  Absolutely.

[🏀]

But Titan, they actually do.  I think I pointed out why.  Are they the Yankees, Dodgers, Giants? Perhaps not.  But great fans and a great historic franchise?  Absolutely.

The Cardinals should try to trademark "great" and "greatest"

[MUBurrow]

I've been a Cardinal fan since the 1960s and I think there are a couple of reasons why the Cardinals are so good for so long.

1) As other posters illustrated, the Cardinals have a very loyal fan base. Before 1957, they were it west of the Mississippi. That's a long time ago but baseball traditions are generational. Father to son. Mother to daughter. Heck, Kansas City should own a good part of Missouri and everything in the Great Plains. They don't. The Cardinals do.

2) For years, the Cardinals had Anheuser-Busch as an owner. Sometimes the Brewery invested more, sometimes less. But the Cardinals for a generation were directly associated with Budweiser and Busch Beers. The corporate strength of AB helped make the team a national team.

3) Sorry, but Cardinal fans are demanding fans. I've been critical of Cub fans before as putting up with crap. Cardinal fans will tolerate a bad team for a short time it if the team is trying to win. But if the team is a bunch of losers, as it was in the late 1970s, the fans will find something else to do. Boating in the Ozarks, gambling on the Mississippi or growing grass in Chesterfield. Cardinal fans are hard-working fans and they're not going to spend their money wastefully. Plus, the team's success has spoiled them. Ownership knows this.

4) Cub fans will put up with crap because Wrigley Field is the eighth wonder of the world. Brewer fans will tolerate it because they're ever hopeful goodness is just around the corner and if, we get lucky, they'll be there when it started!

 

[shoothoops]

dgies,

I think a lot of what you write about the Cards is correct.  There's one other important factor in play and that's the simple reality that they are really the only game in town.  Sure St. Louis has had its occasional 'rental' football team but they have a weak history in that regard.  Sure they have hockey but little success until just now and zero national relevance.  And their last foray into basketball was an unknown ABA team if I'm recalling correctly.  On top of that, St. Louis (and Missouri for that matter) have no presence in any major college sport with the pinnacle probably being Mizzou football, now a complete after though misplaced in the SEC.  That means that essentially ALL the sports dollars flow into the Cards.  St. Louis is a baseball town because it very much has to be a baseball town.

I'm not being critical.  It's one of the great franchises.  Upper quartile in MLB, for sure.  Probably the only non-coastal team in that regard save the Cubs and perhaps the Braves.

I guess the one thing that I also reflect on is how wonderful we really have it in Wisconsin.  The Big 3 sports played at a good to great level with outstanding history plus championships (mostly in football) and MVPs galore.  GREAT college sports including football, basketball and hockey.  World class venues.  It's all good.  We're truly blessed.

Respectfully, this is highly inaccurate. I can reply to dgies directly where I disagree with his assessments.

I don’t think either of you understand the St. Louis market.

As Nick Bakay used to say, “The numbers never lie.”

You seem to try to equate success with following, fandom, etc...

You are aware the Rams sold out 95% of their games while in St. Louis? You are aware their television ratings are still higher in St. Louis than Los Angeles four years after relocating? The Rams and professional football have been extremely popular in St. Louis. It isn’t their fans fault that Bill Bidwell and Stan Kroenke were the owners. It’s actually pretty remarkable the local support there despite inept ownership, multiple teams, periodic elite Super Bowl success combined with some of the worst losing stretches in the league.

The Blues have been wildly popular for several decades. Annual attendance and television ratings show that. The Blues are in the top handful of local tv ratings in years they are not strong or elite, to of course go along with record breaking local tv ratings during the Championship run. Getting almost a million people at a parade doesn’t happen for bandwagons. They had a stretch of 25 straight playoff seasons.

“All of the sports dollars flow into the Cards” “Only game in town” are factually incorrect statements by a wide margin.

They just announced an MLS expansion Franchise. That sport obviously has a big following and long history there. From U.S. men’s and women’s teams filling up big stadiums, to SLU’s 10 National Titles and their 6k in their first few games to start their season. College sports there are roughly similar there as Marquette fans would know. Larger state school has more alums, fans, media coverage than the local Jesuit private school.

As for pro sports both Kansas City and St. Louis have had teams in NFL, MLB, soon MLS, etc at the same time, in the same state. Wisconsin doesn’t have that with two cities in the state being home to various same major pro sports teams at the same time.

College sports have a big following as well. Mizzou has played in the SEC title football game twice in the past 5 seasons.m by the way, not exactly an after thought. They were competitive in the Big 12 and Big 8 prior. But more importantly, they get attendance and ratings.  The same can be said for basketball. The Mizzou v Illinois basketball and football games do well when played in St. Louis, with the hoops having decades of sell outs annually. SLU had 6,000 for both of its first two soccer games with a rebuilding team. When SLU played in a league with Marquette, it would get 17k a game. And when they are competitive even in less desirable leagues during Majerus era, it was event viewing.

It goes on and on, whether its local professional, college teams, whether its the very frequent National College and Olympic Sports events hosted their and their attendance and ratings, .....or United States National team frequent stops in various sports. it’s not the most informed take to say the Cardinals are the only game in town

 It’s an all sports town with regard to support, ratings, $$. Again, respectfully, you just notice the baseball team more because they play in a division with Milwaukee as opposed to other sports, and, they have been successful often. That doesn’t mean the other things don’t exist. People who may not follow hockey, wouldn’t necessarily know the long history of attendance, ratings, $, and fandom there. The Blues were not a Stanley Cup contender last season. They had a long history of making the playoffs and early or mid tier exits with exceptions. How does that explain having the top couple of tv ratings in the league?...as has been the case often in their history. How do you explain the Rams attendance in St. Louis and television ratings? It’s a big sports market. Lots of games in town.

[jsglow]

Sorry shoothoops, you're trying to hard.

Not in any way trying to insult what is presumably your hometown.  The reality is that it is now a city with 300,000 folks, roughly 1/3 of its heyday in the 1950s and soon to be surpassed by KC as the dominant metro area in the state.  It's got a great historic baseball team.  It had a very nice run capturing the Stanley Cup where I think we all cheered for them to get their first ever.  But let's not pretend that it's the center of the athletic universe or that anybody in the SEC has ever even heard of their college football team.  It's Memphis; just a bit nicer.

[JWags85]

Don't waste your time or mental energy.  Dgies is a good dude, but he's the complete embodiment of all the absurd Cardinal fan stereotypes, minus the nasty bits of racism.  They are the best, most loyal, most knowledgeable fans...until they aren't.  And when they aren't?  Well, they have a reason for it and that reason makes them superior to other fans as well.  Its precious   

[shoothoops]

Sorry shoothoops, you're trying to hard.

Not in any way trying to insult what is presumably your hometown.  The reality is that it is now a city with 300,000 folks, roughly 1/3 of its heyday in the 1950s and soon to be surpassed by KC as the dominant metro area in the state.  It's got a great historic baseball team.  It had a very nice run capturing the Stanley Cup where I think we all cheered for them to get their first ever.  But let's not pretend that it's the center of the athletic universe or that anybody in the SEC has ever even heard of their college football team.  It's Memphis; just a bit nicer.

So is this what people do when they don’t want to discuss the numbers and facts? The topic was and is sports $, popularity, fandom, attendance, ratings other than baseball in that market. Clearly something about that market has gotten under your skin. Your previous post said you were not trying to be critical, but...proceeded to be just that. ...then again in this one you strangely did the same thing about its population, or saying another city has surpassed it in the state or comparing it to yet another smaller metro. I don’t know who hurt you in your past in St. Louis or from St. Louis, and that really doesn’t matter. I can always discuss misinformed metro areas in other pm’s aside from the baseball topic.

 If anything you don’t realize you keep accidentally making the case for it as an all sports market. Multiple Universities spread out their followings. Multiple professional teams spread put their followings. Yet there they are, the numbers in various sports despite all of those factors.

One thing you seem to have a little bit in common with Cardinal fan poster is that you seem to think what you know, like, follow, is descriptive of an entire market. If it isn’t something you know, heard of like or follow, it somehow to you is not popular in that other market. Just because you may not follow insert sports team here, doesn’t mean that team doesn’t have a big following elsewhere. And that’s the topic. If you don’t to believe me, look at the numbers, speak to the people who cover these things.

Take football as a random example:

The Rams arrived in St. Louis. At the time there were many other teams with large followings within the region and nationally. Kansas City, Chicago, Green Bay, etc..and of course the National followings of teams such as Pittsburgh, Dallas, etc..not within the region. That’s what makes their economic, ticket, television ratings etc support all the more impressive. The Cardinals would of course be different from that as they have been there since the 1800’s. It doesn’t mean other things don’t have high popularity relative to other places. It isn’t that difficult to understand.

It is what it is, a top 20 tv market, 3 million metro area. (unlike many other metros, the city and county are considered separate entities, and the city is only defined as less than 60 square miles)  It’s a strong baseball market. But it’s also a strong sports market in variety of other sports. You don’t seem to want to discuss attendance, television ratings, money specifically. So I can move on from the topic.

I never said it was the center of the athletic universe. You said the baseball team was the only game in town which isn’t true. The numbers show otherwise. You somehow seemed to use that to explain their success. And you seemed to equate on field success with local following, popularity, and support. If anything it is often more telling when support is shown when teams are not as successful. And of course follow the numbers when they are as well.

Notice how I didn’t and don’t have to change the subject to take shots at Milwaukee, the state of Wisconsin or any of its Universities there. I understand the Wisconsin market quite well past and present, both its changes and constants. 

Pick a different place for example. Nashville Tennessee, as I do Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, many other places.  But I don’t personally care to spend too much time near Broadway downtown scene. I’d rather spend time in the West End, Hillsboro Village, Germantown, Midtown, maybe The Gulch, 12 South, East Nashville, etc...wherever. But I can recognize it's a nice place, the huge popularity of the Broadway scene, and its $. 

I'm a Marquette grad/fan that doesn't have to hate Notre Dame (this group is getting smaller since the late 80's early 90's) or Wisconsin sports to be a Marquette fan. There are a lot of us.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I wish we all could be like St. Louis

[shoothoops]

Don't waste your time or mental energy.  Dgies is a good dude, but he's the complete embodiment of all the absurd Cardinal fan stereotypes, minus the nasty bits of racism.  They are the best, most loyal, most knowledgeable fans...until they aren't.  And when they aren't?  Well, they have a reason for it and that reason makes them superior to other fans as well.  Its precious   

Here’s the thing though. There are good, bad, indifferent fans in all markets, all sports. All cities/metros have good, bad, indifferent things about them.

The best fans in baseball thing was never a self proclaimed thing for them. That was from people outside that area.

This myth gets repeated over and over and must be true. But it isn’t.

dgies is obviously a big Cardinal fan and but he doesn’t represent an entire fan base or more than one person of it, good, bad, or indifferent. I’ve respectfully disagreed with some of his opinions because I believe at times he equates his limited personal experience to an entire place or team or etc..without being able to separate that from other things. Glow in my opinion is similar in some ways with these recent posts.

It would be inaccurate if I said all Cubs fans are this or all Brewers fans were that, etc..or all of Milwaukee was this or all of Chicago was that.....

[Dr. Blackheart]

Reading between the lines, it sounds like Joe and Jed will be gone.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/theo-epstein-speaks-cubs-fans-184503111.html

[buckchuckler]

I wish we all could be like St. Louis

I sure wish the Sox could be more like the Cardinals.

I also wish the Sox absurdly got a competitive balance pick like the Cards.

[MU82]

Reading between the lines, it sounds like Joe and Jed will be gone.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/theo-epstein-speaks-cubs-fans-184503111.html

Yep ... as soon as the guy who runs a team starts his assessment with, "I just think our failure to play up to our ability, play up to our potential," he's saying, "Hey man, I did my job. Now if only everybody else did theirs. I need to find somebody who will."

[jsglow]

So is this what people do when they don’t want to discuss the numbers and facts? The topic was and is sports $, popularity, fandom, attendance, ratings other than baseball in that market. Clearly something about that market has gotten under your skin. Your previous post said you were not trying to be critical, but...proceeded to be just that. ...then again in this one you strangely did the same thing about its population, or saying another city has surpassed it in the state or comparing it to yet another smaller metro. I don’t know who hurt you in your past in St. Louis or from St. Louis, and that really doesn’t matter. I can always discuss misinformed metro areas in other pm’s aside from the baseball topic.

 If anything you don’t realize you keep accidentally making the case for it as an all sports market. Multiple Universities spread out their followings. Multiple professional teams spread put their followings. Yet there they are, the numbers in various sports despite all of those factors.

One thing you seem to have a little bit in common with Cardinal fan poster is that you seem to think what you know, like, follow, is descriptive of an entire market. If it isn’t something you know, heard of like or follow, it somehow to you is not popular in that other market. Just because you may not follow insert sports team here, doesn’t mean that team doesn’t have a big following elsewhere. And that’s the topic. If you don’t to believe me, look at the numbers, speak to the people who cover these things.

Take football as a random example:

The Rams arrived in St. Louis. At the time there were many other teams with large followings within the region and nationally. Kansas City, Chicago, Green Bay, etc..and of course the National followings of teams such as Pittsburgh, Dallas, etc..not within the region. That’s what makes their economic, ticket, television ratings etc support all the more impressive. The Cardinals would of course be different from that as they have been there since the 1800’s. It doesn’t mean other things don’t have high popularity relative to other places. It isn’t that difficult to understand.

It is what it is, a top 20 tv market, 3 million metro area. (unlike many other metros, the city and county are considered separate entities, and the city is only defined as less than 60 square miles)  It’s a strong baseball market. But it’s also a strong sports market in variety of other sports. You don’t seem to want to discuss attendance, television ratings, money specifically. So I can move on from the topic.

I never said it was the center of the athletic universe. You said the baseball team was the only game in town which isn’t true. The numbers show otherwise. You somehow seemed to use that to explain their success. And you seemed to equate on field success with local following, popularity, and support. If anything it is often more telling when support is shown when teams are not as successful. And of course follow the numbers when they are as well.

Notice how I didn’t and don’t have to change the subject to take shots at Milwaukee, the state of Wisconsin or any of its Universities there. I understand the Wisconsin market quite well past and present, both its changes and constants. 

Pick a different place for example. Nashville Tennessee, as I do Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, many other places.  But I don’t personally care to spend too much time near Broadway downtown scene. I’d rather spend time in the West End, Hillsboro Village, Germantown, Midtown, maybe The Gulch, 12 South, East Nashville, etc...wherever. But I can recognize it's a nice place, the huge popularity of the Broadway scene, and its $. 

I'm a Marquette grad/fan that doesn't have to hate Notre Dame (this group is getting smaller since the late 80's early 90's) or Wisconsin sports to be a Marquette fan. There are a lot of us.

I'm not here to fight with you shoot. I think STL is below average.  You think STL is great.  I think the Cardinals are a signature franchise and everything else is an afterthought.  You don't.  I'm not really interested in comparing stats.  Have a great weekend.

[buckchuckler]

Anyone see the Orioles give up 2 runs on a 2 out strikeout yesterday?  They are something else. 

[jsglow]

Anyone see the Orioles give up 2 runs on a 2 out strikeout yesterday?  They are something else.

I don't follow the AL much these days but I did notice that it is a league of extreme haves and have nots.  Wow.

[DegenerateDish]

I know there's some Sox fans that are on this board, and I wanted to post this here in case any Sox fans were interested. Full transparency, my friends in the Sox front office approached me about having my son Bradley be a part of this campaign with Michael Kopech. If you want to see my fat face and hear my deep voice on tv, I'll be on with Chuck Garfien during the September 25th broadcast of Indians/Sox.

Kopech is growing out his hair and won't cut it until SoxFest next year in support of Ronald McDonald House. For a small donation, one gets a chance to have lunch with Kopech, get Sox scout seats for a game next year. I don't know how well this has been marketed so far, so my hope is someone here wins. Having spent some time with Kopech, he's a great guy, very engaging. It'd be awesome if a MU Sox fan won this.

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/charities/support/kopechs-big-kut

Thanks for letting me post, back to your regularly scheduled pissing match.

[shoothoops]

I'm not here to fight with you shoot. I think STL is below average.  You think STL is great.  I think the Cardinals are a signature franchise and everything else is an afterthought.  You don't.  I'm not really interested in comparing stats.  Have a great weekend.

At least you are consistent...say you aren’t going to say something negative and proceed to do just that. Three separate posts in a row. Just can’t help yourself I suppose.

Anyone can have an opinion about anything. And that’s great. Informed or under informed. But facts are facts, numbers are numbers. That’s a little bit different. After confronted with additional facts, you have decided you aren’t interested in discussing them, specifics, or the numbers which may be different from your original theory or thought. The discussion was about support, following, popularity of different sports besides baseball in a particular market.

That has somehow turned into your repeated venting negatively about a particular metro. I don’t allow personal sports fandom to overcome objectivity about a team, place, etc...and I find good things about every place I’ve lived or have visited, so I suppose we’re a bit different that way.

[jsglow]

I've looked at your history shoot.  It's a frequent, full throated defense of your city.  I'm happy that you like it there.  It's why we live in a free country.  I sincerely hope you have a fantastic weekend.  (Well, except for being disappointed about your baseball team.   )

[ZiggysFryBoy]

The st louis inferiority complex is strong in this thread.

[Dr. Blackheart]

The st louis inferiority complex is strong in this thread.

Show Me

[shoothoops]

I've looked at your history shoot.  It's a frequent, full throated defense of your city.  I'm happy that you like it there.  It's why we live in a free country.  I sincerely hope you have a fantastic weekend.  (Well, except for being disappointed about your baseball team.   )

Four straight posts. Still can’t help yourself.

Perhaps Marquette’s psychology department could hire you to teach a gaslighting course? The deflections, distractions, anything but the topic hand.

The topic of course was sports popularity in a particular market other than baseball, as evidenced by money, ticket sales, television ratings, etc...This isn’t a topic you seem interested in discussing in any specifics despite you being the one to bring it up. I merely responded to your post. Each time instead of discussing the topic, you instead chose to switch the topic to cities, metros, and speak negatively about the same metro in the form of gaslighting hoping for the distraction, hoping incorrectly that it would somehow bother me. None of which has anything to do with what you said in the first place, which is why I replied.

It could have been simple enough to say that perhaps the Cardinals have a larger National and International following, for reasons previously mentioned in the thread. But locally, in that market, there are other sports that also have high popularity as well. The numbers support the multiple sports popularity.

I get it. I’ve been around a little bit. I’ve lived a lot of places including Milwaukee, Chicago, as well as larger metros on both coasts, NYC, L.A, and other geographies too. There are of course good, bad, indifferent, things about every city, metro, same as they all have good, bad, indifferent sports fans. Your strategy isn’t bad because this is a Marquette board, lots of Milwaukee Chicago sports fans here. And a small percentage of them will support anything negative about a competing team or its location. And a few will jump in and support that. You were aware of that or you wouldn’t have used the strategy. It of course isn’t representative of everyone in those markets, nor even of everyone here. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the topic though.

My previous posts here show what I think about the current actual baseball season. (spoiler alert, any of 3 teams can win the NL Central for a variety of reasons) None would be a big surprise, as they are all decent or good but flawed teams. And even decent but flawed teams can win short playoff series of 5 or 7 games.

I’m happy to move on or take the discussion elsewhere so people can have the baseball thread.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Show Me

ISWYDT

[🏀]

The st louis inferiority complex is strong in this thread.

STL just told wades to hold my beer.

Sorry buddy, you get the joke though.

[#UnleashSean]

I didn't think anything could beat Wades on the mlb thread. Scoop continues to prove me wrong.

[cheebs09]

Brewers extending the netting. That’s nice to hear. I’d definitely be more likely to buy tickets in that area now.

https://twitter.com/sophiaminnaert/status/1172610605737529346?s=21