Have To Tell It Like It is

[brandx]

Yep.


And there's the biggest indictment of TW's post yet...

Just started reading the thread - got to your post and it is exactly was I was going to say.

But then, I think that TW, duanewade and Wojosmojo are one and the same.

[NersEllenson]

I didn't ask you to reveal sources.  So you are saying that you have talked to someone with knowledge of the situation who believes that one, or both, of the transfers were not handled appropriately?

Yes.  They believe the transfers could have been avoided fairly easily with better communication, along with a bit more playing time.  

Listen to Western.  He knows his stuff.

Of course he won't answer this simple yes or no question.  Because it's obvious.  He is fine with insinuating that he has knowledge but when called out, he fades back into the bushes and moves on to the next post that he can vaguely answer and push his agenda.

Happy now??  The next time you contribute any inside information will be your first.  Until then please keep your snide remarks to yourself.

[Anti-Dentite]

You guys can pick at Tex's posts on this thread and mutate what the intent of the original post all you want to make yourselves feel better but this is on Wojo. It's simply poor management by an inexperienced head coach and two high quality kids are out the door. I hope he learns from it and I wish both John and Deonte all the best as they move forward. It didn't have to go down like this.

[MUfan12]

I hope he learns from it and I wish both John and Deonte all the best as they move forward. It didn't have to go down like this.

You're right, it didn't. They could have stuck it out and earned their minutes in practice. Especially Deonte.

[NotBuzzWilliams]

Don't make decisions based on where you are in life, make them on where you're going. Your biography is not your destiny, your decisions are

[Hards Alumni]

Yes.  They believe the transfers could have been avoided fairly easily with better communication, along with a bit more playing time.  

Listen to Western.  He knows his stuff.

Happy now??  The next time you contribute any inside information will be your first.  Until then please keep your snide remarks to yourself.

Because that's what this place is all about.

You really need to get over yourself.  Literally, no one cares.

[brandx]

You're right, it didn't. They could have stuck it out and earned their minutes in practice. Especially Deonte.

+1

I was appalled watching him play 'D' the last two games. Never saw a major college player have his hands down by his side that much.

He was a favorite of mine, but there was no way he was going to get more minutes until he changed his game.

[MUfan12]

He was a favorite of mine, but there was no way he was going to get more minutes until he changed his game.

And that was communicated to him. Not only on defense, but rebounding, an area that could have won him major minutes. Deonte wasn't receptive to it, so he decided to leave. Wojo isn't dumb, he knows the natural ability is there. He just couldn't get through to him.

[NersEllenson]

+1

I was appalled watching him play 'D' the last two games. Never saw a major college player have his hands down by his side that much.

He was a favorite of mine, but there was no way he was going to get more minutes until he changed his game.

Serious question:  How can you find Deonte's D so appalling, and justify it as a reason for him not to play, yet support Derrick playing when his O Game as a SENIOR is still down right appalling?  And not just playing, but playing 30-35 per game?  You really think Burton couldn't hold down that forward spot on the Zone D similarly well as Derrick, yet not be a MAJOR upgrade at the other end?  Deonte wasn't a good on ball, man to man defender, but showed very good passing lane and ball instincts -both of which have great value in a zone.  

Not trying to hate on Derrick here - but instead ask a legitimate question - why is it okay for one guy to have major deficiencies on one end of the floor, and play max minutes, but not okay for another guy?

[MUCam]

This thread is hilariously outrageous. These kids expected more time and Wojo should've given it to them to placate them? Listen to yourselves. It is laughable.

These things happen especially when you have a coaching change. They were not Wojos recruits and for better or worse they couldn't earn the playing time they wanted. Burton was a disaster thus far in his limited time and statistics demonstrate that Dawson was not up to snuff last year despite the "eye test" opinions of certain resident experts. They have a right to leave, but let's not pretend like we lost the two best players on the teams, regardless of preseason hype and fanciful wishes. I would have loved to see them stick it out and earn their place, but I completely respect their decisions and wish them the best.

As an aside it would be great if people stopped quoting Ners who, by his own stroke of genius in playing the martyr to leave this board through his own self-indulgent poll, crowned himself as the least credible regular poster I have ever come across in any community when he reneged on his own promise to leave. Anything the guy says is now worth nothing.

[NotAnAlum]

Ners, I'm as disappointed as anyone that Deonte is leaving and I would have liked to see him get more playing time BUT don't turn this into Deonte vs Derrick.  For some reason this team seems to play better when Derrick is in the game EVEN THOUGH Derrick's stats wouldn't indicate that he is making a contribution.  I don't particularly like it because I'd like to exchange Derrick for a better offensive player but if you watch the games the times Derrick is out the rest of the guys don't play as well.  Deonte minutes would have needed to come from Juan or however is playing the 4.

[mattyv1908]

Good point Ners, although I don't want to take this thread down well treaded waters.

This is not a good defensive team.  For Wojo to switch to a zone essentially meant that almost to a man, this roster didn't have players capable of playing man defense to his standards.

This is also not a good offensive team.  Carlino is a scoring threat, but if Jamil Wilson gave you headaches with his inconsistency than Carlino must give you nightmares watching his ill advised shots.  Our only other somewhat consistent shooter is Duane Wilson.  Deonte Burton potentially could have been our most talented offensive player had he gotten himself on track.

While this is not the ideal attitude you'd dream for college kids to have, Burton seems like the more court time he has the more impactful on both ends of the floor he could become.  Having spent 15+ years training and managing sales teams, some of the most talented individuals needed extra attention the first 5-7 days of a month to ensure their early momentum carried them through, or more importantly that a poor start didn't derail their mental state taking away from their natural ability.

I hope Wojo truly learns from this because managing individuals is hard, especially in a competitive environment.  He may be a great recruiter and x's and o's coach, but it's handling the nuances in these types of situations that make coach's great.

[MUfan12]

This thread is hilariously outrageous. These kids expected more time and Wojo should've given it to them to placate them? Listen to yourselves. It is laughable.

Not only that, but the fact that they weren't getting minutes with 9 players dressed should be a giant sign they weren't good enough to beat out the guys in front of them.

[brandx]

Serious question:  How can you find Deonte's D so appalling, and justify it as a reason for him not to play, yet support Derrick playing when his O Game as a SENIOR is still down right appalling?  And not just playing, but playing 30-35 per game?  You really think Burton couldn't hold down that forward spot on the Zone D similarly well as Derrick, yet not be a MAJOR upgrade at the other end?  Deonte wasn't a good on ball, man to man defender, but showed very good passing lane and ball instincts -both of which have great value in a zone.  

Not trying to hate on Derrick here - but instead ask a legitimate question - why is it okay for one guy to have major deficiencies on one end of the floor, and play max minutes, but not okay for another guy?

First off, I have not been a big supporter of Derrick. But I will answer the question anyway.

Derrick's offense can be appalling at times because he doesn't possess some of the skills we would like to see. Rebounding and defense are "effort" skills. Deonte leaving his hands at his sides on defense is inexcusable regardless of his ability.

[NersEllenson]

Good point Ners, although I don't want to take this thread down well treaded waters.

This is not a good defensive team.  For Wojo to switch to a zone essentially meant that almost to a man, this roster didn't have players capable of playing man defense to his standards.

This is also not a good offensive team.  Carlino is a scoring threat, but if Jamil Wilson gave you headaches with his inconsistency than Carlino must give you nightmares watching his ill advised shots.  Our only other somewhat consistent shooter is Duane Wilson.  Deonte Burton potentially could have been our most talented offensive player had he gotten himself on track.

While this is not the ideal attitude you'd dream for college kids to have, Burton seems like the more court time he has the more impactful on both ends of the floor he could become.  Having spent 15+ years training and managing sales teams, some of the most talented individuals needed extra attention the first 5-7 days of a month to ensure their early momentum carried them through, or more importantly that a poor start didn't derail their mental state taking away from their natural ability.

I hope Wojo truly learns from this because managing individuals is hard, especially in a competitive environment.  He may be a great recruiter and x's and o's coach, but it's handling the nuances in these types of situations that make coach's great.

Well said Matty - as are all of your posts.

[Ardmore Mug]

As Wojo said the JSOnline article:
When asked about Burton following Marquette's loss to Ohio State and ahead of its game against Nebraska-Omaha, Wojciechowski implied that Burton wasn't seeing more playing time because his contributions were one-dimensional.

"He's a guy who can score," Wojciechowski said on November 21. "He's got to continue to contribute in other ways, too, in terms of rebounding and defense."

[NersEllenson]

And that was communicated to him. Not only on defense, but rebounding, an area that could have won him major minutes. Deonte wasn't receptive to it, so he decided to leave. Wojo isn't dumb, he knows the natural ability is there. He just couldn't get through to him.

Do you really believe Deonte "wasn't receptive" to Wojo's coaching?  And if Wojo wasn't able to get through to him, is that more on Deonte or Wojo?  I will say Deonte's playing time was pretty choppy this season, and it is hard to get into a rhythm, flow, and produce consistent results when you have very inconsistent playing time. 

I would have liked to see Wojo give him more minutes to see if some of the rebounding would have come with more PT.  Deonte may not have the fundamental defensive skills you may like in a player, but he was a defensive playmaker - he was disruptive.  The potential was there.  In my view, I'd have liked for Wojo to figure out how to make it work with Deonte, because the kid is a major talent.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wow, this escalated quickly.

1) Best wishes to both John and Deonte. I hope they find what they are looking for at their next program.

2) "Encouraged transfers" do happen. But not in the way that Ners and others are implying. I have worked at two different D1 universities, one D2 university, and interned at another D1 university. I work with college basketball players, staff, and coaches every day and benching a kid who deserves to force him to transfer hasn't happened ONCE in my years of experience. It is extremely unethical and could kill your reputation on the recruiting scene.  What does happen, is coaches will have blunt conversations with players and tell them "unless you improve drastically, you will not get any playing time on this team. If playing time is your priority, you probably should transfer." In rarer cases, a coach may say "your scholarship will not be renewed next season because I need it for a better." This isn't very common in my experience. Some view it as unethical, I personally do not. Your scholarship is earned on the basketball court, if you can't perform and someone else can....

3) I have only had brief conversation with Wojo but my instincts, as well as everyone I talk to, lead me to believe that he is a genuine, ethical, upstanding human being. The fact that Wojo played John those four minutes against UT Martin leads me to believe that he wasn't planning on Dawson transferring. If he was truly "nailing Dawson to the bench" he wouldn't have done that. It would take a supremely terrible human being to do that to a kid. A much more likely scenario is that Dawson wasn't good enough to earn playing time in close game (e.g. all of our games since UT Martin) but was going to get playing time in garbage time scenarios with the possibility that he could earn more time in practice or next season.

4) No coach, ANYWHERE, will play a kid more minutes just to keep him from transferring. The moment a coach does this, he has lost control of his team. Playing time is earned, not given. This is coaching 101. If a player says give more playing time or I walk and he won't listen to reason, any coach worth his salt will say "there's the door." If Deonte and John really left because they weren't willing to work for their playing time, then bravo to Wojo for standing tall.

5) No player is bigger than the team. The coach should always do what is best for the program. (Except in cases of ethics)

6) Try to enjoy the process. The future is bright!

[MUHoopsFan2]

Well said Matty - as are all of your posts.

Major failure on the coach....you find a way to make it work. You don't do this or allow this to happen now.

But he will rebound I persume...
 

[RJax55]

Do you really believe Deonte "wasn't receptive" to Wojo's coaching?  And if Wojo wasn't able to get through to him, is that more on Deonte or Wojo?  I will say Deonte's playing time was pretty choppy this season, and it is hard to get into a rhythm, flow, and produce consistent results when you have very inconsistent playing time.  

I would have liked to see Wojo give him more minutes to see if some of the rebounding would have come with more PT.  Deonte may not have the fundamental defensive skills you may like in a player, but he was a defensive playmaker - he was disruptive.  The potential was there.  In my view, I'd have liked for Wojo to figure out how to make it work with Deonte, because the kid is a major talent.

MU is 8 games into the season. The team hasn't even reached the 1/3rd mark of the season. By transferring, Deonte never gave it time to work. I'm not saying the results would have been different, but your comments make it sound like we had a season worth of evidence.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Major failure on the coach....you find a way to make it work. You don't do this or allow this to happen now.

But he will rebound I persume...
 

What should Wojo have done differently?

[mattyv1908]

4) No coach, ANYWHERE, will play a kid more minutes just to keep him from transferring. The moment a coach does this, he has lost control of his team. Playing time is earned, not given. This is coaching 101. If a player says give more playing time or I walk and he won't listen to reason, any coach worth his salt will say "there's the door." If Deonte and John really left because they weren't willing to work for their playing time, then bravo to Wojo for standing tall.

TAMU

JJJ - clueless defensively (IMO more than Burton), horrible shot selection, bad turnovers.

Derrick - possibly the worst offensive backcourt player I have ever witnessed, only a 'good' defender when compared to his offense, horrible FT shooter.

Juan - very limited offensive player, very limited defensive player, poor shot selection (passes up open jump shots to force contested, wild drives), bad turnovers.

Taylor - misses more gimmies than any player other than Derrick, poor defensive player, hesitant with basketball, bad turnovers.

Carlino is an extremely flawed player yet needed with the make up of this team.  Duane is the real deal yet still developing and any positive contribution from a freshman in Cohen is welcome at this point in time.

If Deonte Burton with his skill set as it is now didn't have a larger role on this team full of world beaters then I'll be the first to say our coaching staff's metrics for alloting playing time should be an area of scrutiny.

[MUHoopsFan2]

ok...then let's say he/wojo placates deonte and dawson this year by throwing them just enough bones to keep them around for this year.  then next year he pulls the rug out and...? you would feel much better about wojo then?  just wondering

Yes.....I WOULD.

Especially considering Deonte's mothers death and the fact that he is a local product from Milwaukee. He deserved more time...and consideration.

You mean to tell me with all of those former big time college players like Chris Carrawell and others no one could get to him?

This to me says more about that staff and less about Deonte right now if he was encouraged to move on...

ABSOLUTELY.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

JJJ - clueless defensively (IMO more than Burton), horrible shot selection, bad turnovers.

Derrick - possibly the worst offensive backcourt player I have ever witnessed, only a 'good' defender when compared to his offense, horrible FT shooter.

Juan - very limited offensive player, very limited defensive player, poor shot selection (passes up open jump shots to force contested, wild drives), bad turnovers.

Taylor - misses more gimmies than any player other than Derrick, poor defensive player, hesitant with basketball, bad turnovers.

Carlino is an extremely flawed player yet needed with the make up of this team.  Duane is the real deal yet still developing and any positive contribution from a freshman in Cohen is welcome at this point in time.

If Deonte Burton with his skill set as it is now didn't have a larger role on this team full of world beaters then I'll be the first to say our coaching staff's metrics for alloting playing time should be an area of scrutiny.

JJJ-Played comprable minutes to Deonte, but agreed that he should have gotten less
Derrick- The distance between Derrick's D and Deonte's D is much greater than the distance between Derrick's O and Deonte's O
Juan- I don't think anyone could make an argument that Deonte was better than Juan this season. Plus, Juan is a necessity because of his height and has been our best defender.
Steve- Necessary evil. Tallest player on the team.
Carlino/Duane- Both were head and shoulders better than Deonte this season.

Wojo and his staff evaluated the talent this year just fine. I think Deonte really struggled without a true big man to help seal off lanes for him on offense and cover his arse on defense. I think his production was going to go up significantly once Luke got on the floor. It's a shame won't get to see if that was a correct prediction or not.

You do agree about coaches not giving into demands from players for playing time, correct? Whatever our opinions are, clearly Burton wasn't doing something to earn playing time with the coaching staff.

[mattyv1908]

Yes.....I WOULD.

Especially considering Deonte's mothers death and the fact that he is a local product from Milwaukee. He deserved more time...and consideration.

You mean to tell me with all of those former big time college players like Chris Carrawell and others no one could get to him?

This to me says more about that staff and less about Deonte right now if he was encouraged to move on...

ABSOLUTELY.

I agree, and the same folks who thought Buzz could do no wrong until he left and now he is garbage and Wojo can do no wrong will have this sail over their heads as usual and begin hurling insults.