WI Supreme Court Takes McAdams' Case

[Babybluejeans]

I'd be curious to know what percentage of those 2-in-3 Catholics attend mass on a weekly basis as opposed to twice a year.

Which would prove what exactly? That the church — through action or inaction entirely of its own making — has driven away many, many Catholics who might otherwise attend?

[jsglow]

Ha. That’s definitely not why admissions are down. For what it’s worth, me and several friends from the East Coast chose Marquette over other schools precisely because it had an open and non-conservative bent - typical of the Jesuits, who educated us out east. I got the sense that choice was similar to many classmates.

Just to correct, they're up measurably.  And the goal is 2500 in a few short years.  Not sure I agree with that objective but that's where they're going.   

[Galway Eagle]

I'd be curious to know what percentage of those 2-in-3 Catholics attend mass on a weekly basis as opposed to twice a year.

I'd be curious how many of those Catholics that go every week actually live their day to day lives in Jesus' footsteps vs the ones that don't place as much emphasis on mass.

[jutaw22mu]

Which would prove what exactly? That the church — through action or inaction entirely of its own making — has driven away many, many Catholics who might otherwise attend?

True, Vatican II did drive many Catholics away.

[WarriorDad]

This has been discussed at length in other threads.  Do note that the carefully evaluated new strategy has resulted in two of the largest classes in MU history, both of which reflect a stronger incoming academic profile, all during a time when Marquette's traditional recruiting territory is producing an ever diminishing pool.  So they got that going for 'em, which is nice.

I have no problems with the current strategy, but I am pointing out to those that pretend acceptance rates don't mean anything to some people that they are wrong.  They mean quite a bit to some people, and less to others.  We cannot blindly pretend acceptance rates are just another metric when there are people in power of hiring positions that it matters.   That doesn't mean I don't support MU's policy or I would have pushed her not to apply if I thought it would hurt her.  Ultimately she will receive a quality education, and that is what I care about most. 

[Babybluejeans]

True, Vatican II did drive many Catholics away.

If only that were true. The church would be in a much better place.

[WarriorDad]

If only that were true. The church would be in a much better place.

It was true for a segment of Catholics.  The older folks like me, and especially my parents and grandparents, it was a cultural shock to the system.

A tug of war ensued.  Change is hard for human beings.  I still remember all the nuns in their habits, they were instantly recognizable and demanded respect.  We would get smacked on the knuckles with a ruler.  He he. Hurt like the dickens, but you only had to learn that lesson once.  When I see nuns today, it still sometimes throws me for a loop because habit is gone.  Doesn't change who they are, but I liked the uniform and the respect that came with it.  Minor stuff, I know.

The Vatican II tug of war:
https://www.npr.org/2012/10/10/162650803/sisters-and-vatican-ii-a-generational-tug-of-war

Vatican II, 50 years later still deeply divided
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2012/10/06/vatican_ii_roman_catholic_church_still_deeply_divided_50_years_after_historic_reforms.html

[warriorchick]

I have no problems with the current strategy, but I am pointing out to those that pretend acceptance rates don't mean anything to some people that they are wrong.  They mean quite a bit to some people, and less to others.  We cannot blindly pretend acceptance rates are just another metric when there are people in power of hiring positions that it matters.   That doesn't mean I don't support MU's policy or I would have pushed her not to apply if I thought it would hurt her.  Ultimately she will receive a quality education, and that is what I care about most.

Please tell me the names of the companies who give a university's acceptance rate significant weight when they are looking at resumes.

It is my experience that most hiring managers look at the success that graduates of a particular university (and to drill down further, graduates of a particular program at a particular university) have out in the workplace.  The average hiring manager or HR recruiter has no idea what any particular school's acceptance rate is. 

If I found out that someone in my organization passed on an otherwise highly-qualified candidate because of their alma mater's acceptance rate, I would have to have a serious conversation with them.

[GGGG]

It was true for a segment of Catholics.  The older folks like me, and especially my parents and grandparents, it was a cultural shock to the system.

A tug of war ensued.  Change is hard for human beings.  I still remember all the nuns in their habits, they were instantly recognizable and demanded respect.  We would get smacked on the knuckles with a ruler.  He he. Hurt like the dickens, but you only had to learn that lesson once.  When I see nuns today, it still sometimes throws me for a loop because habit is gone.  Doesn't change who they are, but I liked the uniform and the respect that came with it.  Minor stuff, I know.

The Vatican II tug of war:
https://www.npr.org/2012/10/10/162650803/sisters-and-vatican-ii-a-generational-tug-of-war

Vatican II, 50 years later still deeply divided
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2012/10/06/vatican_ii_roman_catholic_church_still_deeply_divided_50_years_after_historic_reforms.html

It throws you for a loop to see nuns not in habits?  In 2018?

[Babybluejeans]

It was true for a segment of Catholics.  The older folks like me, and especially my parents and grandparents, it was a cultural shock to the system.

A tug of war ensued.  Change is hard for human beings.  I still remember all the nuns in their habits, they were instantly recognizable and demanded respect.  We would get smacked on the knuckles with a ruler.  He he. Hurt like the dickens, but you only had to learn that lesson once.  When I see nuns today, it still sometimes throws me for a loop because habit is gone.  Doesn't change who they are, but I liked the uniform and the respect that came with it.  Minor stuff, I know.

The Vatican II tug of war:
https://www.npr.org/2012/10/10/162650803/sisters-and-vatican-ii-a-generational-tug-of-war

Vatican II, 50 years later still deeply divided
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2012/10/06/vatican_ii_roman_catholic_church_still_deeply_divided_50_years_after_historic_reforms.html

But did older generations of Catholics actually stop going to church because of the Vatican II changes? There's a significant distinction between the churchgoing impact of Vatican II and, say, the rampant abuse cover-ups. A distinction obvious to most of us except, perhaps, this jutaw person, who chose to trot out the well-worn "good Catholics versus bad Catholics" line of illogic, which is as hypocritical as it is hollowly self-righteous.

[jutaw22mu]

But did older generations of Catholics actually stop going to church because of the Vatican II changes? There's a significant distinction between the churchgoing impact of Vatican II and, say, the rampant abuse cover-ups. A distinction obvious to most of us except, perhaps, this jutaw person, who chose to trot out the well-worn "good Catholics versus bad Catholics" line of illogic, which is as hypocritical as it is hollowly self-righteous.

My distinction was practicing Catholic vs. non-practicing Catholic, not good vs. bad.

Personally, my stance on the matter is more progressive than our progressive pope's and closer to the 2-in-3 Catholics that support gay marriage, with some caveats.

[tower912]

I don't believe that churches need to abandon their beliefs.  I do believe in equal protection under the law.  So, civil unions.  Yes, there is conflict between religion and secular.  What else is new?

[Jay Bee]

What does, “support gay marriage” mean?

[rocket surgeon]

I'd be curious how many of those Catholics that go every week actually live their day to day lives in Jesus' footsteps vs the ones that don't place as much emphasis on mass.

excellent point bags-blaming NOT going to church or leaving the church on people, who are merely the vehicle of Christ's word and a way of living, is weak.  i like to believe in what is right first, second and third...  for those who use the priest scandal, celibacy, women priests, gay marriage, etc as an excuse to "leave the church", they are in the wrong pew to begin with.  church, the physical part is like any other business.  if you like what they have to offer and they can help you get what you want out of life, help you cope, whatever, you are going to patronize it.

[GGGG]

excellent point bags-blaming NOT going to church or leaving the church on people, who are merely the vehicle of Christ's word and a way of living, is weak.  i like to believe in what is right first, second and third...  for those who use the priest scandal, celibacy, women priests, gay marriage, etc as an excuse to "leave the church", they are in the wrong pew to begin with. 

The priest scandal, a systematic cover-up of illegal activities, is a lot different than the other three you mention, which are matters of belief.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

My wife and I have started going to a Congregationalist church after both being raised Catholic. I was back home for Palm Sunday and went to a Catholic mass with my parents. I looked around and there was literally one couple that appeared to be under the age of 40. There was a lot of small children with their parents but as far as I could tell only two people from my generation had come there by choice (and that's assuming that one wasn't going to appease the other).

While different, religion at its core is a form of education. Religion exists to teach people about God's love and plan for us. A key tenant of education is meeting the students where they are at. And right now, the Catholic Church is failing tremendously at that.

To be clear, I don't think the church needs to abandon its teachings or rituals in order to cater to a younger generation. But I do think they need to reexamine them and determine what teachings/rituals come from God's Catholic Church and what teachings/rituals come from man's catholic church. I still consider myself a Catholic because I believe in God's Catholic Church but in my opinion man's catholic church has strayed so far from it that it no longer is a place where I can worship and feel sustained or even good.

Things like married priests, female priests, gay marriage, recognizing interfaith marriages, reexamining the role of divorce (in situations where abuse is present), birth control. These are all questions that I think come from man's church that the Catholic Church should consider reexamining IMHO.

[Lennys Tap]

  I still remember all the nuns in their habits, they were instantly recognizable and demanded respect.  We would get smacked on the knuckles with a ruler.  He he. Hurt like the dickens, but you only had to learn that lesson once.  When I see nuns today, it still sometimes throws me for a loop because habit is gone.  Doesn't change who they are, but I liked the uniform and the respect that came with it.  Minor stuff, I

"Respect" isn't derived from a uniform or the possibility that the person wearing it might hit you. You're confusing respect with fear.

[HutchwasClutch]

My wife and I have started going to a Congregationalist church after both being raised Catholic. I was back home for Palm Sunday and went to a Catholic mass with my parents. I looked around and there was literally one couple that appeared to be under the age of 40. There was a lot of small children with their parents but as far as I could tell only two people from my generation had come there by choice (and that's assuming that one wasn't going to appease the other).

While different, religion at its core is a form of education. Religion exists to teach people about God's love and plan for us. A key tenant of education is meeting the students where they are at. And right now, the Catholic Church is failing tremendously at that.

To be clear, I don't think the church needs to abandon its teachings or rituals in order to cater to a younger generation. But I do think they need to reexamine them and determine what teachings/rituals come from God's Catholic Church and what teachings/rituals come from man's catholic church. I still consider myself a Catholic because I believe in God's Catholic Church but in my opinion man's catholic church has strayed so far from it that it no longer is a place where I can worship and feel sustained or even good.

Things like married priests, female priests, gay marriage, recognizing interfaith marriages, reexamining the role of divorce (in situations where abuse is present), birth control. These are all questions that I think come from man's church that the Catholic Church should consider reexamining IMHO.

Why stop there with making the Catholic Church a bastion of liberalism?  Why not "re-examine" it's stance on abortion? Or celebrating men becoming women, or vice versa?

In one breath you talk about the church not needing to abandon its teaching or rituals.  In the next breath, they need to "re-examine" what comes from God's Church vs man's. Re-examine being a euphemism for abandoning beliefs and values of Catholic teaching.  So why not just cut through your crap that spew out and say Catholicism isn't nearly socially liberal enough to YOUR liking?

And visit Catholic churches more often before you broadly generalize the make-up of congregations. 

[rocket surgeon]

The priest scandal, a systematic cover-up of illegal activities, is a lot different than the other three you mention, which are matters of belief.

yes, but i wasn't referring to the priest scandal as a belief.  i was lumping it in with the others("matters of belief") as one of the many "excuses" for some to leave the church. 

[GGGG]

yes, but i wasn't referring to the priest scandal as a belief.  i was lumping it in with the others("matters of belief") as one of the many "excuses" for some to leave the church. 

But you said they were in the "wrong pew to begin with."  Now I agree with you on items like female priests.  If you want to see females capably lead a church service, there are plenty of denominations where that happens.  (And as a non-Catholic, I generally *prefer* most female pastors to male ones.)

But the priest cover up isn't a belief matter.  If you are a believing Catholic, being disgusted at the priest scandal isn't about being in the "wrong pew," it's being disgusted at how the Church leadership dealt with a matter of law.

[mu_hilltopper]

A decade+ ago, I was at a mass with my brother-in-law's family at a Lutheran church.

The mass we were at, the kids performed the service.  Half the mass was a puppet show!

Right there, I knew all those people were going to hell.  ( / would be joining me in hell.)

Full church, though.

[rocket surgeon]

But you said they were in the "wrong pew to begin with."  Now I agree with you on items like female priests.  If you want to see females capably lead a church service, there are plenty of denominations where that happens.  (And as a non-Catholic, I generally *prefer* most female pastors to male ones.)

But the priest cover up isn't a belief matter.  If you are a believing Catholic, being disgusted at the priest scandal isn't about being in the "wrong pew," it's being disgusted at how the Church leadership dealt with a matter of law.

i don't know why i am wasting my time arguing with you on this, but i think you are splitting hairs with me on this.  one more time-yes i know and agree with you that the priest cover-up is/was not a "belief" thingy.  i was merely lumping that in...ok, the "pew" thing threw ya off...ok, i get rid of it, fine. i guess i had a pretty good point until i added the "pew" thing... now i know how chicos felt

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Why stop there with making the Catholic Church a bastion of liberalism?  Why not "re-examine" it's stance on abortion? Or celebrating men becoming women, or vice versa?

In one breath you talk about the church not needing to abandon its teaching or rituals.  In the next breath, they need to "re-examine" what comes from God's Church vs man's. Re-examine being a euphemism for abandoning beliefs and values of Catholic teaching.  So why not just cut through your crap that spew out and say Catholicism isn't nearly socially liberal enough to YOUR liking?

And visit Catholic churches more often before you broadly generalize the make-up of congregations.

What I mean by reexamining what comes from God and what comes from Man I mean going back to the scripture and seeing what was actually taught by Jesus. I don't think the church should rethink its position on abortion because I can point to dozens of verses that supports the value of life. But things like gay marriage, divorce, female priests, unmarried priests, etc, don't have the same scriptural backing. They come from man made traditions. I also don't know how most of what I said is socially liberal. Gay marriage I get but unmarried priests and divorce? I don't think those have a political affiliation.

As for overgeneralizing I suppose I am a bit guilty of that. Though I was raised Catholic and went to dozens of different congregations growing up and still occasionally go to Catholic mass and have noticed the same thing at every one of them except on campus churches like Gesu. I have also had similar conversations with dozens of Catholic friends have noticed the same trend. I can also point to any one of several research articles that shows that millennials and igens go to Catholic church in fewer and fewer numbers every year.

[Galway Eagle]

Why stop there with making the Catholic Church a bastion of liberalism?  Why not "re-examine" it's stance on abortion? Or celebrating men becoming women, or vice versa?

In one breath you talk about the church not needing to abandon its teaching or rituals.  In the next breath, they need to "re-examine" what comes from God's Church vs man's. Re-examine being a euphemism for abandoning beliefs and values of Catholic teaching.  So why not just cut through your crap that spew out and say Catholicism isn't nearly socially liberal enough to YOUR liking?

And visit Catholic churches more often before you broadly generalize the make-up of congregations.

How much do you honestly know about the history of the church? Priests were once allowed to marry, the celibacy thing is entirely a man made rule because of the corruption it caused. His point stands despite how upset it made you that over the years the Catholic Church has had a lot of things added because man wanted them to rather than what were the actual teachings. Those things aren't aging well and the church should re-examine them rather than maintaining the Pope's from the Middle Ages and such had their hearts in the right place

[GGGG]

i don't know why i am wasting my time arguing with you on this, but i think you are splitting hairs with me on this.  one more time-yes i know and agree with you that the priest cover-up is/was not a "belief" thingy.  i was merely lumping that in...ok, the "pew" thing threw ya off...ok, i get rid of it, fine. i guess i had a pretty good point until i added the "pew" thing... now i know how chicos felt

*feels.

It would help if you actually used proper sentence structure and didn't simply write in a stream of consciousness.