Rich Harden to the Cubs

[🏀]

Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin to the Cubs for Gallagher, Murton, Eric Patterson, and Josh Donaldson.

Another GREAT trade by Jim Hendry.

[TJ]

I don't even like the Cubs, but that's a great trade for them.  It's like trading Gallagher for Harden and Gaudin.  The rest of the players are worthless to the Cubs.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin to the Cubs for Gallagher, Murton, Eric Patterson, and Josh Donaldson.

Another GREAT trade by Jim Hendry.

As an Angels fan let me just say....Hoorah!

[NYWarrior]

As an Angels fan let me just say....Hoorah!

Why?  Harden has been all promise and nothing more for years.

That said, its a great value deal for the Cubs.  A promising young starter, a pair of AAAA OFs and a bag of donuts for a high risk/high upside pitcher....makes u wonder though, if Beane didnt like what he saw from Harden in his last few starts -- velocity was down last time out.  Time to cut bait, even if it's at a discount

[wadesworld]

Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin to the Cubs for Gallagher, Murton, Eric Patterson, and Josh Donaldson.

Another GREAT trade by Jim Hendry.

Apparently the Cubs were quite scared by what the Brewers had just done...

[Pakuni]

Great trade for the Cubs? Maybe, but far from certain.

Between 2003 and 2007, Rich Harden has averaged 15 starts per season.
So far this year? 13 starts.

He's got great stuff, but rarely goes past six innings and is an injury waiting to happen. I'd suggest revisiting this topic in September to see just how great of a deal this may be.

[NYWarrior]

He's got great stuff, but rarely goes past six innings and is an injury waiting to happen. I'd suggest revisiting this topic in September to see just how great of a deal this may be.

The A's have babied Harden all year.......perfuming the pig (of course, Harden has not thrown 100 IP in a season since 2005).    Perhaps there was a reason why Beane pulled the trigger now ---

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20080701&content_id=3044746&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak

"First the Halos climbed out of an early two-run hole against All-Star candidate Rich Harden, who was missing four to seven mph from his typically overpowering fastball."

Caveat emptor

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why?  Harden has been all promise and nothing more for years.

That said, its a great value deal for the Cubs.  A promising young starter, a pair of AAAA OFs and a bag of donuts for a high risk/high upside pitcher....makes u wonder though, if Beane didnt like what he saw from Harden in his last few starts -- velocity was down last time out.  Time to cut bait, even if it's at a discount

Harden is 6-3 against the Halos and 20-8 overall the last 4 years.  He is definitely injury prone but when he's healthy he has been a tough pitcher for our guys (who already can't hit).  He's had a good year this year with only one loss.

I don't know, losing a guy in our division (the 2nd place team) that is 5-1 with a 2.34 ERA is a good thing.  

[NYWarrior]

Harden is 6-3 against the Halos and 20-8 overall the last 4 years.

BFD....he's thrown a combined 278 innings in the last four years combined and has a paltry 11 wins in the last 3 yrs combined.  Brad Lidge has thrown 248 IP over the same 4-year time period.  Joe Nathan threw 246 IP.  So, as a starter, Harden is good for closer inning loads.

Heck, 6-3 against your LosAngelesAngelsofwhereverthehecktheyplay in the last 4 years is in line with what you'd expect a middle reliever to net against a divisional opponent over the same time period.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

BFD....he's thrown a combined 278 innings in the last four years combined and has a paltry 11 wins in the last 3 yrs combined.  Brad Lidge has thrown 248 IP over the same 4-year time period.  Joe Nathan threw 246 IP.  So, as a starter, Harden is good for closer inning loads.

Heck, 6-3 against your LosAngelesAngelsofwhereverthehecktheyplay in the last 4 years is in line with what you'd expect a middle reliever to net against a divisional opponent over the same time period.   

Let's put it this way, I'm much happier to be playing against the stiffs they got for Harden then Harden himself. 

You're starting to sound like an arrogant Red Sox fan...stop.   

[Pakuni]

The A's have babied Harden all year.......perfuming the pig (of course, Harden has not thrown 100 IP in a season since 2005).    Perhaps there was a reason why Beane pulled the trigger now ---

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20080701&content_id=3044746&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak

"First the Halos climbed out of an early two-run hole against All-Star candidate Rich Harden, who was missing four to seven mph from his typically overpowering fastball."

Caveat emptor

Harden also was subpar Sunday against the White Sox, throwing 95 pitches (only 55 for strikes) in just five innings and walking four to go with five hits allowed.
Like I said, he's got great stuff, but Billy Beane rarely gets burned when letting go of starting pitching (see: Mulder, Mark; Zito, Barry).

Oh, and Chico's ... those stiffs include the Cubs' top pitching prospect, a guy who hit .297 when he had a chance to start and a guy who Baseball America ranked the sixth best prospect in the Cubs' system last year. All three are major league players, although Gallagaher is the only one who has a chance at being an exceptional one.

[Rollout-the-Barrel]

The trade gives the Cubs a slight edge in starting pitching again.  Love the early deals before trade deadline.  I think Brew Crew and Cubs both make the playoffs with these trades.

[TallTitan34]

Cubs:  Zambrano (9-3), Harden (5-1), Dempster (10-3), Lilly (9-5), Marquis (6-5)
Brewers: Sheets (10-2), Sabathia (7-8), McClung (5-4), Bush (4-8), Parra (8-2)

Bold = All Star

[MUfan12]

Great trade if he stays healthy. I'd still take CC, just more of a proven commodity, and more durable.

This race will be fun.

[Chili]

way to ruin what farm system the cubs had. harden on the dl by august 31. the guy is a kitten.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Harden also was subpar Sunday against the White Sox, throwing 95 pitches (only 55 for strikes) in just five innings and walking four to go with five hits allowed.
Like I said, he's got great stuff, but Billy Beane rarely gets burned when letting go of starting pitching (see: Mulder, Mark; Zito, Barry).

Oh, and Chico's ... those stiffs include the Cubs' top pitching prospect, a guy who hit .297 when he had a chance to start and a guy who Baseball America ranked the sixth best prospect in the Cubs' system last year. All three are major league players, although Gallagaher is the only one who has a chance at being an exceptional one.

You'll forgive me Pakuni, but national league prospects and national leaguers in general don't qualify as anything more than stiffs to me for the most part.  There are exceptions, but there is such a huge disparity in talent between the two leagues that I'd much rather deal with National leaguers then American leaguers in today's day.  And I doubt any of them do anything this year.  Down the road, perhaps...this year...I doubt it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

way to ruin what farm system the cubs had. harden on the dl by august 31. the guy is a kitten.

Didn't the Brewers just give up a huge chunk of their farm system for a pitcher that in all liklihood isn't going to sign with them?

[NYWarrior]

Didn't the Brewers just give up a huge chunk of their farm system for a pitcher that in all liklihood isn't going to sign with them?

Not really....they only coughed up one premium prospect (one of their MiLB top 10 prospects in fact), a kid who is blocked at the MLB level by Braun and Fielder.   The other kids don't grade out nearly as high as LaPorta though Green has nice upside.  Well played by Melvin

[TJ]

a guy who hit .297 when he had a chance to start

Murton could also be described as the guy who had zero potential to advance in the Cubs system and was essentially worth nothing to them but what he could return in trade.  When the Cubs have been faced with their multiple injuries in the outfield this season, Hendry and Pinella went out of their way to find any possible solution to keep Murton off the field.

[Henry Sugar]

Some takes on the trade from Goatriders (lots of links)

http://www.goatriders.org/even-more-rich-harden

http://www.goatriders.org/reactions-to-the-harden-trade

The always entertaining Desipio chimes in too.

http://www.desipio.com/?p=1491

and a comment from Homer

Homer on the Trade

[MUDPT]

Pakuni, where was Murton going to play?  He doesn't have the arm to play RF or CF.  Where was Patterson going to play?  You saw his defense against the White Sox in the series on the Southside.  He won't play ahead of DeRosa.  Donaldson is the number one prospect in the system, rated by some.  Supposedly, the most power of any player in the Cubs minor league series.  Gallagher is a top pitching prospect, although I'm not sure if he is the TOP pitching prospect.  That could be Ceda or Samardzija or Veal or even Marshall.

[robmufan]

Read the thread quickly, not sure if it was mentioned.

First off, the trade talks for Harden have been ongoing for a month, and Hendry has came out and said that.  So this was not a reaction to the brewers trade, it was just sped up a little.

Second off, we are not "renting" rich harden like the brewers are CC sabathia.  The cubs will have Harden next year too!  Being we gave up Murton and Patterson (both needed a change of scenery), a catching prospect (with soto hopefully we dont need one for 8 years), and Sean Gallagher, it looks as if we basically traded 3 people that won't play here, and 1 pitcher, in return for 2.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not really....they only coughed up one premium prospect (one of their MiLB top 10 prospects in fact), a kid who is blocked at the MLB level by Braun and Fielder.   The other kids don't grade out nearly as high as LaPorta though Green has nice upside.  Well played by Melvin

I disagree....CC is a rental and isn't going to be with the Brewers long term.  High price to pay if it doesn't work out.

[🏀]

Let's just sum everything up:

Cubs Give:
Murton - No future with organization in LF for 6 years, low trade value.
Patterson - No future with organization at second base, high/medium trade value.
Donaldson - Career minor leaguer, no chance at making the big show.
Gallagher - Huge upside guy. Great work ethic. Stuff isn't as good as Harden has showed.

The Cubs gave up nothing that would effect their team until the 2010 season at best. at that point Gallagher might turn into a decent #3 starter.

Cubs Get:
Harden - Electric stuff, as good as anyone out there. A legit candidate for #1 starter on any team. Any injury risk yes, but excellent upside. We also have him for another full season, and have the resources to re-sign him if need be.
Gaudin - He would be a better #5 that Marquis. He would right now be the Brewers 3, 4, or 5 pitcher.

The Cubs get two immediate impact players to win the World Series now without jepordizing their future.

Brewers Gave:
LaPorta - Your second half 2009 season starting first basemen. Prince will be dealt before the trade deadline next year.

LaPorta and Braun were supposed to be the cornerstones of the future. Not anymore.

Brewers Get:
Safathia- 13 more starts out of a premiere #1.


Again, Sabathia never put the Brewers better than the Cubs in the regular season. Playoffs, yes. However, Jim Hendry just made the Cubs better in the playoffs.

[Pakuni]

Read the thread quickly, not sure if it was mentioned.

First off, the trade talks for Harden have been ongoing for a month, and Hendry has came out and said that.  So this was not a reaction to the brewers trade, it was just sped up a little.

Second off, we are not "renting" rich harden like the brewers are CC sabathia.  The cubs will have Harden next year too!  Being we gave up Murton and Patterson (both needed a change of scenery), a catching prospect (with soto hopefully we dont need one for 8 years), and Sean Gallagher, it looks as if we basically traded 3 people that won't play here, and 1 pitcher, in return for 2.

The trade talks have been going on for a while, but always on the back-burner as the Cubs' focus had been on Sabathia. Also, reportedly the reason the deal didn't happen sooner is because Hendry previously had been unwilling to part with Gallagher as part of the trade. The Brewers' acquisition of Sabathia changed his mind.

[Henry Sugar]

geez... this Brewers and Cubs bullcrap is tiresome

both fracking teams made good trades.  

The Harden trade was good for both the Cubs and the A's.  The Sabathia trade was good for both the Indians and the Brewers.  How good is a complete unknown for all four teams.

It's a complete fallacy to assume that one side has to win and one side has to lose in a negotiation.  It's called the "fixed-pie fallacy".

[🏀]

The trade talks have been going on for a while, but always on the back-burner as the Cubs' focus had been on Sabathia. Also, reportedly the reason the deal didn't happen sooner is because Hendry previously had been unwilling to part with Gallagher as part of the trade. The Brewers' acquisition of Sabathia changed his mind.

Hmm... Jayson Stark of ESPN said the Indians were looking for positional players, not pitching. The Brewers had LaPorta, the Cubs had Hoffpauir. What would you take?

[StillAWarrior]

Brewers Gave:
LaPorta - Your second half 2009 season starting first basemen. Prince will be dealt before the trade deadline next year.

LaPorta and Braun were supposed to be the cornerstones of the future. Not anymore.

Brewers Get:
Safathia- 13 more starts out of a premiere #1.


Again, Sabathia never put the Brewers better than the Cubs in the regular season. Playoffs, yes. However, Jim Hendry just made the Cubs better in the playoffs.

Indians fan here.  Hate to see CC go, but he was already gone.  No sense holding him until the end of the season and then losing him

On the issue of what the Brewers gave up, the jury is still out on that one.  I heard the Indians' VP of Baseball Ops on the radio here yesterday and he talked quite a bit about the proverbial "player to be named later."  He said that the PTBNL was a key part of the deal and that the deal would not have happened without the inclusion of PTBNL -- it's not just a throw-in.  He wouldn't say much, but claimed that there is a relatively small list of players that they can choose from.  He suggested that they all are good players and that the Tribe expects PTBNL to be a high quality player.

I'm curious to see who it is.  He didn't give a time-table on identifying PTBNL, but said they would be scouting everyone on the list.  Apparently the Brewers AA team (the Huntsville Stars) is loaded with talent.  Hopefully the tribe can get a good one.

[Pakuni]

Hmm... Jayson Stark of ESPN said the Indians were looking for positional players, not pitching. The Brewers had LaPorta, the Cubs had Hoffpauir. What would you take?

I think there's some confusion here.
I'm saying the reason the A's-Cubs deal didn't happen sooner is because Hendry had been unwilling to give up Gallagher. He changed his tune about that when Sabathia landed in Milwaukee. So, his protestations aside, the deal was a reaction to the Sabathia trade.

[reinko]

Ahh, to live in rose colored glasses of PTM...the only major issue I have with your post is that Harden is as good as anyone out there.  I can name 30-40 pitchers I would rather have than Rich Harden.  I will get that listing going right now:

Beckett, Dice K, Lester, Halladay, Duchscherer, Volquez, Linceum, Santana, Hammels, Harren, Webb, Garza, Kazmir, E. Santana, Sheets, Sabathia, Greinke, Mussina, F. Hernandez, Jurrjins, C. Lee, Oswalt, Peavy, Verlander, Maine, Cook, Hudson, Saunders, Pettite, Buerle, Lohse, Padilla, Floyd, Nolasco, Looper, Garland...and on and on and on

Nice pick up Chub fans...but far from an elite pitcher who would be a #1 on most teams

[robmufan]

Ahh, to live in rose colored glasses of PTM...the only major issue I have with your post is that Harden is as good as anyone out there.  I can name 30-40 pitchers I would rather have than Rich Harden.  I will get that listing going right now:

Beckett, Dice K, Lester, Halladay, Duchscherer, Volquez, Linceum, Santana, Hammels, Harren, Webb, Garza, Kazmir, E. Santana, Sheets, Sabathia, Greinke, Mussina, F. Hernandez, Jurrjins, C. Lee, Oswalt, Peavy, Verlander, Maine, Cook, Hudson, Saunders, Pettite, Buerle, Lohse, Padilla, Floyd, Nolasco, Looper, Garland...and on and on and on

Nice pick up Chub fans...but far from an elite pitcher who would be a #1 on most teams

You would rather have oswalt, who has fallen apart! then a rich harden who is 5-1 with a sub 3 ERA.  OK!

I guarantee you that you wouldn't rather have padilla then harden.

Please!  I could also have named off all the pitchers i know off the top of my head and say I would much rather pay them $10 mil instead of a washed up closer!

[chapman]

Indians fan here.  Hate to see CC go, but he was already gone.  No sense holding him until the end of the season and then losing him

On the issue of what the Brewers gave up, the jury is still out on that one.  I heard the Indians' VP of Baseball Ops on the radio here yesterday and he talked quite a bit about the proverbial "player to be named later."  He said that the PTBNL was a key part of the deal and that the deal would not have happened without the inclusion of PTBNL -- it's not just a throw-in.  He wouldn't say much, but claimed that there is a relatively small list of players that they can choose from.  He suggested that they all are good players and that the Tribe expects PTBNL to be a high quality player.

I'm curious to see who it is.  He didn't give a time-table on identifying PTBNL, but said they would be scouting everyone on the list.  Apparently the Brewers AA team (the Huntsville Stars) is loaded with talent.  Hopefully the tribe can get a good one.

The player to be named is said to be either AA CF Michael Brantley or single A 3B Taylor Green.  Some sources have already reported that it's Green.  A lot of people believe Green was a better 3B prospect for the Brewers than Gamel, since it seems that a lot of people could go out there without a glove and play better defense than Gamel.  Green is still 2-3 years off however.  Brantley doesn't have a whole lot of power, but he can get hits and draw walks and has great speed which fits the mold for center. 

Losing one prospect isn't going to kill the system, especially with 6 of the first 62 overall picks entering this year and, assuming we lose Sheets 5 of the top 35 next year.  I read an article a few days ago that compared Corey Hart's Southern League MVP season to Huntsville's position player All-Stars, and La Porta, Gamel, Escobar, Salome, and Brantley all were well ahead of pace for better numbers across the board and Errecart and Gillespie were close.

It's interesting that the Brewers basically valued La Porta, Alcides Escobar, and Mat Gamel equally when making the deal, and insisted that only one could be included.  Escobar is either going to force Hardy to be traded or to move to second and force Weeks out because he can hit and supposedly has outstanding defense.  Gamel's bat is ready now, but who knows if he'll ever be able to play third.  The weaknesses are major-league ready prospects (AAA Nashville is empty) and an all-around lack of pitching.  The rotation next year is looking like Gallardo, Parra, Suppan, McClung, and Villaneuva or a free agent.  Not very impressive, but there's nobody even close to coming up. 

[Pakuni]

You would rather have oswalt, who has fallen apart! then a rich harden who is 5-1 with a sub 3 ERA.  OK!

There isn't a GM in baseball who wouldn't take Oswalt over Harden.

[reinko]

Fine I'll give you Oswalt, but Padilla is 10-5 on a crappy team.  Care to refute any other of the 32 pitchers, on my list?

My orginal point is that Harden is not an elite pitcher (and never was) and not a #1 on most clubs.  How can someone who never won more than 11 games in one year of his career ever be considered elite, special, or even great.  He is an above average injury-prone pitcher.  

This year he doesn't even average 6 IP per start.  I mean c'mon.

[robmufan]

My orginal point is that Harden is not an elite pitcher (and never was) and not a #1 on most clubs. 

You must know waaaaaayyy more about baseball then those that call harden a legit #1.  I should get advice for my fantasy team from you!

[reinko]

In your opinion, because remember, that's what these message boards are all about, opinion.  Name me the plethora of the major league teams that you believe Rich Harden would be a #1 starter on right now. 

My opinion; Houston, Washington, Pittsburgh, and the Dodgers.

So come back with some witty remark without actually answering or addressing my points and this little pissing match can come to a conclusion.

[robmufan]

I would argue Florida and Oakland are other places he could be a #1. 

But look at it this way, the cubs were looking for a guy to back up Zambrano.  What team wouldn't take a chance on Harden?  I believe the Rays were looking into him, along with the Phillies. 

Another plus side to anyone taking a chance on Harden is he isn't a rental.  To have harden a second year makes the deal incredible!

[IAmMarquette]

Another plus side to anyone taking a chance on Harden is he isn't a rental.  To have harden a second year makes the deal incredible!

Welcome to the world of small-market Major League Baseball.

The Brewers (likely) simply can't afford to pay a guy like Sheets or Sabathia the kind of money each will command in free agency. In fact, Attanasio said in the Sabathia press conference that the team would likely lose money this year, as the payroll has been pushed near $90M with the addition of CC (for some perspective, it was under $40M when Attanasio took over).

So go ahead and call it a "rental" if you want. It probably is. But tell me how adding another ace pitcher--the reigning AL (hands-down the stronger of the 2 leagues) Cy Young winner--to your team before the All-Star Break can be considered a bad deal. ESPECIALLY for a small-market team like the Brewers.

As for Sabathia vs. Harden...
-Sabathia is a legitimate ace for ANY team. He's got the hardware to prove it. Harden, as discussed above, would be a #1 for maybe a third of the teams in the Majors. Certainly nothing to sneeze at, but a Cy Young winner he is not.
-Sabathia is an innings-eater. Along with Sheets, he'll spare the Brewers bullpen down the stretch. Harden, on the other hand, rarely makes it out of the 6th inning, which will put a lot of stress on the Cubs' strong bullpen. The added work will wear them down. It always does.

Harden certainly improves the Cubs' rotation, as does Sabathia for the Brewers. I think the debate of which top 3 starters you'd rather have comes down to which team you cheer for. Realistically, it's a toss up.

All that being said...

THE CUBS ARE EVIL AND MUST BE DESTROYED.

[Wareagle]

Everyone needs to stop citing pitchers' win-loss records when debating how good they are.  Rewarding a pitcher who is the recipient of better run support (a factor out of their control) is ridiculous.  Just look at Roger Clemens in 2005.  If you want to figure out how good they are, WHIP and strikeouts per 9 innings are much better.

W-L 13-8
ERA 1.87 - 1st in NL that year
WHIP 1.008 - 2nd in the NL that year to Pedro Martinez
He also had the fewest hits allowed per 9 innings.

[🏀]

Beckett,Halladay, Duchscherer, Volquez, Linceum, Santana, Hamels, Haren, Webb, Kazmir, E. Santana, Sabathia, F. Hernandez, Peavy, Verlander, Saunders

There's your answer. Lohse and Looper? You sure do know a lot about baseball.

[muwarrior87]

Chapman, I definitely see a different starting rotation than u do for next year.  With Sheets and Sabathia both in the last year of their contracts, it is somewhat likely both are gone. However, after this year if the Brewers make the playoffs, the buzz around Milwaukee will be very big and next year will be another record attendance season barring a complete drop off. Therefore, I can definitely seeing the Crew bringing in a free agent or making an off season trade with the money that will be freed up of both Sheets and Sabathia are gone. Also, with Gagne being gone after this year, that frees up another 10 million so I can definitely see them improving their starting rotation from Gallardo, McClung, Parra, Suppan and Villanueva.

[🏀]

Chapman, I definitely see a different starting rotation than u do for next year.  With Sheets and Sabathia both in the last year of their contracts, it is somewhat likely both are gone. However, after this year if the Brewers make the playoffs, the buzz around Milwaukee will be very big and next year will be another record attendance season barring a complete drop off. Therefore, I can definitely seeing the Crew bringing in a free agent or making an off season trade with the money that will be freed up of both Sheets and Sabathia are gone. Also, with Gagne being gone after this year, that frees up another 10 million so I can definitely see them improving their starting rotation from Gallardo, McClung, Parra, Suppan and Villanueva.

The Brewers will easily have enough to get another pitcher, which they will. The trouble next year is a weak FA market for pitchers.

Jon Garland LAA
Jason Jennings TEX
Randy Johnson ARZ
Pedro Martinez NYM
Jamie Moyer PHI
Andy Pettitte NYY
Julian Tavarez BOS
Steve Trachsel BAL
Brett Tomko KC
Randy Wolf SD

However, Ritchie Sexson is primed for a comeback to Milwaukee to fill Prince's spot!

[jmayer1]

Jon Garland LAA
Jason Jennings TEX
Randy Johnson ARZ
Pedro Martinez NYM
Jamie Moyer PHI
Andy Pettitte NYY
Julian Tavarez BOS
Steve Trachsel BAL
Brett Tomko KC
Randy Wolf SD

Man, that would have been a sweet staff 6 years ago; not so much for most of those guys anymore.  I like Garland but don't think he is worth the $15 million he might get on the open market, although the trend of overpaying every starter has diminished somewhat in recent years.

[IAmMarquette]

ESPN's Jayson Stark offers his opinion... not much there that hasn't already been covered on the board, but I figured I'd post it anyway.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3479086&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1

[77ncaachamps]

Thank God, Harden's on the Cubs.

I can now sell his auto!