Beating Bucky ugly

[jsglow]

And about confetti and other silliness.

We have a very good, fun-to-watch team that's very easy to root for. I can't figure out why folks are searching for negatives like effen confetti (if it even is a "negative").

I can tell you exactly.  It's because we have a subset of scoopers that would rather we fail in any way imaginable so they can reinforce their own ego about how right they are that Wojo is a terrible coach and should never have been hired in the first place.

[jsglow]

I'm the other way, granted I have watched almost no Badger basketball this year, but that team looks like it's gonna be driving the struggle bus next year. I think they are gonna have to go back to a pure swing offense which will mitigate some of the issues but they are just not going to have much talent next year and likely the year after that.

I'm with Eng on this.  I really don't see enough talent to effectively compete.  When you ask former complimentary players to become the lead dog, that's an entirely different level.  Trice and Reuvers are 'fine' but not guys that can be the focus of a team's scouting report in my opinion. 

I mean, look at Markus.  Every team has him at the top of its pregame chart.  Especially as it pertains to his shooting, you think it hasn't had an impact?

[Goose]

The Badgers are not a very good team. If the last two Saturday's were against top 15 teams in the country, I will up my expectations for this team. That said, I want to watch a few more weeks to see how things shape up. At the moment, I am not not overly impressed with the teams ranked #12 in the country that have have visited MU.
NOTE---not a bash on Wojo or MU. They beat both teams and job well done.

[jsglow]

I'll answer you this way goose.  Maybe not #12 but another NCAA 'lock' team.  In those games this year we're a very solid 3-2 with our only losses against the presumptive #1 in an hour and on the road in a gym where very few have succeeded through the years.

[MU82]

The Badgers are not a very good team. If the last two Saturday's were against top 15 teams in the country, I will up my expectations for this team. That said, I want to watch a few more weeks to see how things shape up. At the moment, I am not not overly impressed with the teams ranked #12 in the country that have have visited MU.
NOTE---not a bash on Wojo or MU. They beat both teams and job well done.

That's fair, Goose.

Rankings are a fun conversation piece, but they don't mean a whole lot in the big picture, especially this early in the season. Who really knows how good Kansas State or Wisconsin or Buffalo are yet? For that matter, who knows how good our Warriors are?

Having said that, I do have to admit that I like it when the national spotlight gets focused positively on our program, and the rankings do contribute to that. And I do like it when I see Marquette on the bottom score scrawls at ESPN and FS1, something that happens more frequently when we're ranked.

As far as not being impressed with Wisconsin and Kansas State, is it at all possible that our lads made them look worse than they are by outplaying them? I suppose K-State having lost to Tulsa takes some shine off, but F%cky's only other loss was to the No. 4 team in the country, and they do have some nice wins.

Remind me ... what were your expectations for our team?

[jesmu84]

I can tell you exactly.  It's because we have a subset of scoopers that would rather we fail in any way imaginable so they can reinforce their own ego about how right they are that Wojo is a terrible coach and should never have been hired in the first place.

This is so perfectly well stated.

[Herman Cain]

The Badgers are not a very good team. If the last two Saturday's were against top 15 teams in the country, I will up my expectations for this team. That said, I want to watch a few more weeks to see how things shape up. At the moment, I am not not overly impressed with the teams ranked #12 in the country that have have visited MU.
NOTE---not a bash on Wojo or MU. They beat both teams and job well done.

The Badgers have one truly great player and enough of a supporting cast to probably make the tournament.  They need Trice to step up and be a consistent legit second threat to be more than they are now. That said they have a good  body of work and beating  UW is a very good quality win MU had to work hard to get.  Proud of MU for coming through in the clutch.     

[Goose]

MU82

My expectations had them a bubble team. Aside from the last few wins, Wojo has surprised me a tad with guys playing time.  My expectations were based off Cain and Heldt playing more minutes this season. Wojo has played the better players and I like that. If he starts to play Morrow more minutes than John, I think the team will be better than I expected.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm not there yet. Trice, Davison, & Reuvers will all be juniors and they have some decent depth around them. I think Reuvers could the next in that line of Leuer/Berggren/Kaminsky/Happ bigs that contributes in multiple ways and is a star upperclassman. We should be the better team next year, but it will be on the road against a team that can compete for a NCAA bid, and when they come back to the FF they'll have an experienced squad of seniors. I think writing them off because of Happ is premature. They're in okay shape (not great, but not the total end of an era).

Berggren wasn't bad but his name doesn't belong in the same stratosphere with Leuer, Kaminsky, and Happ.

[Goose]

jsglow

Have said it many times, do not care how we beat better teams or style of play used to beat those teams. You can only beat the teams you play. My point is, if they are lock NCAA teams, it should be pretty ugly March. They both look like bubble teams to me.

[MU82]

MU82

My expectations had them a bubble team. Aside from the last few wins, Wojo has surprised me a tad with guys playing time.  My expectations were based off Cain and Heldt playing more minutes this season. Wojo has played the better players and I like that. If he starts to play Morrow more minutes than John, I think the team will be better than I expected.

Interesting. I felt we were a top-3 in the Big East team, and nothing so far has changed that.

Totally agree about minutes. In his first season, IMHO, Wojo gave too many minutes to guys he felt comfortable with or indebted to or whatever ... still can't really explain it except that he was a rookie coach who was learning on the fly. But since then, I think he has done a good job apportioning minutes, and I think he especially has had a good feel for the 5 position.

Theo has earned his minutes, and it appears Morrow is earning more minutes, too. They have fairly similar skill sets. If memory serves, one reason Morrow wanted out of Nebraska is they wanted him to play 5, but it's his obvious position for our team, too.

I have long felt that the fewer minutes Heldt plays, the better the outlook for our team is. That isn't because I "hate" Matt or even because I think he is an awful player. It's because if he is playing 10 mpg or fewer, it simply means we have better players at the 5 -- and that's a good thing.

Cain's lack of playing time has surprised me compared to what I felt he'd get going into the season, but again, it means that others are producing. I mean, how many games would it have helped our team to have less Sacar (or less Sam or less Joey, because they're the other players who would lose time) and more Jamal?

[Goose]

MU82

I am not going to bash Cain, but I do not think he is a contributor on a top 20 team. Role player, yes. IMO, John falls into the same camp. Morrow is a more polished basketball player. John is a bruiser and everyone likes that. I feel Morrow brings much more to the table than any of the big men.

We are in agreement, Wojo is giving the minutes to the guys that can help them win. I will give Wojo this, his playing time per player is reflecting an urgency to winning this year. I was concerned that he was going to give 8-9 guys a lot of minutes. IMO, there are not 8-9 guys who deserve a lot of playing time.

[NorthernDancerColt]

MU82

I am not going to bash Cain, but I do not think he is a contributor on a top 20 team. Role player, yes. IMO, John falls into the same camp. Morrow is a more polished basketball player. John is a bruiser and everyone likes that. I feel Morrow brings much more to the table than any of the big men.

We are in agreement, Wojo is giving the minutes to the guys that can help them win. I will give Wojo this, his playing time per player is reflecting an urgency to winning this year. I was concerned that he was going to give 8-9 guys a lot of minutes. IMO, there are not 8-9 guys who deserve a lot of playing time.

Have to agree with you, Goose. RIGHT NOW, no he’s not. However, Cain would be like the quintessential ‘80s ‘90s Cub who is traded (forced to transfer) and goes on to kill it with his new team. Hope he channels any anger and frustration into taking his game to another level RIGHT HERE. I think the defensive lapses have really hurt him re playing time, as one of the main reasons he and Greg were recruited was to help amp-up the D and exhibit toughness. Mental lapses on D can be fixed. Would hate to lose this guy...but think the transfer rumor is, if not ridiculous, totally premature.

[GGGG]

Have to agree with you, Goose. RIGHT NOW, no he’s not. However, Cain would be like the quintessential ‘80s ‘90s Cub who is traded (forced to transfer) and goes on to kill it with his new team.

At a P6 type of school?  I really doubt that.  I can see him crafting out a Sacar-like role here, but the only level I see him "killing it" would be at a MAC or Horizon type school. 

[skianth16]

MU82

My expectations had them a bubble team. Aside from the last few wins, Wojo has surprised me a tad with guys playing time.  My expectations were based off Cain and Heldt playing more minutes this season. Wojo has played the better players and I like that. If he starts to play Morrow more minutes than John, I think the team will be better than I expected.

The minutes for Matt and Jamal have been surprising for sure, but the team seems to be carving out its identity, so I'm OK with this for now. As it relates to Ed and Theo, I don't know that we've seen enough consistency from Ed just yet for him to be getting more minutes than Theo. Both guys seem to do well in the rim protector role, but I think Theo has been more effective so far this year. We got to see some of what Ed is capable of down the stretch against UW, but until he's able to bring that level of play for 20+ minutes, I still like Theo as our primary big.

That being said, with our offense performing well at times from inside the arc this year, there could be some good scenarios to play both guys together and push for more points in the paint.

[NorthernDancerColt]

At a P6 type of school?  I really doubt that.  I can see him crafting out a Sacar-like role here, but the only level I see him "killing it" would be at a MAC or Horizon type school.

I can see justification for your doubt, but I really feel that maybe it’s the dynamics of this team that is limiting his time a bit too. Right now, Brendan can do everything Jamal can and more. There is a lot of versatility on this team, and that’s a good thing. Jamal is a thin perimeter player exhibiting mental lapses on D...not a good recipe for playing time. He can and will develop. Hope it’s here. I just have a feeling his ceiling is higher than people realize. I do see your point.

[MU82]

MU82

I am not going to bash Cain, but I do not think he is a contributor on a top 20 team. Role player, yes. IMO, John falls into the same camp. Morrow is a more polished basketball player. John is a bruiser and everyone likes that. I feel Morrow brings much more to the table than any of the big men.

We are in agreement, Wojo is giving the minutes to the guys that can help them win. I will give Wojo this, his playing time per player is reflecting an urgency to winning this year. I was concerned that he was going to give 8-9 guys a lot of minutes. IMO, there are not 8-9 guys who deserve a lot of playing time.

All of this is analysis I can respect, Goose.

Not sure I've seen evidence of Morrow being more polished or more anything else than Theo, but I haven't seen evidence to the contrary, either. I'm guessing they will play based upon matchups, who is doing well in a given game, etc.

I also am glad that Wojo is giving the most minutes to the most deserving guys and the guys most likely to help us win. That's his job.

My surprise with Cain comes from the production we were getting from him down the stretch last season. He was a good 3-point shooter and I figured he'd improve defensively and with his decisions as he got experience. So far, that hasn't panned out. Maybe it will later this year, maybe next year, maybe at a different school ... who knows?

[tower912]

I think Cain's lack of playing time actually illustrates something about LAST YEAR's team.    Two small guards.   Three freshmen getting minutes force fed them, especially after Haanif left.      8 players in the rotation when Froling flamed out.     We all gave Cain credit for working his butt off and not getting overwhelmed as often as we feared, as well as making the open 3, getting the skying rebound and making the occasional stop.   And we should have.   He did as much as any 3 star freshman getting big minutes in a tough league can be asked to do.  He hasn't regressed.    Better players have arrived.      Last year, he got minutes at the 3/4.    This year, there are taller players with more complete games in front of him.   

Just another reason I thought Wojo squeezed as much as he could have out of last year's team.   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I actually think Cain has improved on the defensive side. It's his offense that didn't develop. I think he has some good upside but just got passed up for now. Keep in mind he's the second youngest scholarship player on the team.

And people wonder why I suggested redshirtting him

[Goose]

TAMU

I was in your camp on redshirt for Cain. While I am not high on him, but thought it was good call on your part.

[tower912]

I was against it, thinking he could play some 2 this year.    I was thinking Theo, giving him a chance to develop a complete game with Heldt and Eke picking up his minutes.    Hmmmmm, completely bolluxed that up. 

[MU82]

I actually think Cain has improved on the defensive side. It's his offense that didn't develop. I think he has some good upside but just got passed up for now. Keep in mind he's the second youngest scholarship player on the team.

And people wonder why I suggested redshirtting him

Based on last year, I thought a redshirt was a silly suggestion. I now bow to your superior knowledge, sir!

When one looks at the way Wojo is apportioning minutes, the only way to give Cain more time is to take it away from Joey, Sam or Sacar, or take some of BB's few minutes away, or to bolt JCS to the bench.

I think most of us will agree that taking minutes away from Joey, Sam or Sacar wouldn't be the best thing. BB is very similar to Cain but looks like the better player so far. And while I'm guessing there are plenty of folks who would favor the latter option JCS is the only Warrior who can give Markus some relief from PG duties. It will be interesting to see how things develop if and when Elliott returns.

[MUMountin]

I actually think Cain has improved on the defensive side. It's his offense that didn't develop. I think he has some good upside but just got passed up for now. Keep in mind he's the second youngest scholarship player on the team.

And people wonder why I suggested redshirtting him

I rewatched the portion of the game last night that Cain was in and didn't see him make any glaring mistakes.  He seemed to be very focused on staying in front of his guy on defense when he had the ball.  Maybe a little uncertain on defense when his guy was on the weakside, but nothing significant.  Interesting that he got pulled and never made it back in, but I guess that indicates Wojo's overall trust in a tight game.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I'm not there yet. Trice, Davison, & Reuvers will all be juniors and they have some decent depth around them. I think Reuvers could the next in that line of Leuer/Berggren/Kaminsky/Happ bigs that contributes in multiple ways and is a star upperclassman. We should be the better team next year, but it will be on the road against a team that can compete for a NCAA bid, and when they come back to the FF they'll have an experienced squad of seniors. I think writing them off because of Happ is premature. They're in okay shape (not great, but not the total end of an era).

Not writing them off beyond next year with the loss of Happ.  He does everything for them.  If he is not scoring, he is finding the open man for an clean look, as well as apparently being the only one interested in rebounding.

Trice no doubt improved his shooting and surprised a bunch of teams, but I didn't see the ability to create his own shot.  Markus Howard, of all people, who no one will claim is an elite defender, had plenty of quickness to shut Trice down other than when he got pinched in the double screen.

I agree, in two years the shoe might be on the other foot as they'll have a older team and we'll be faced with trying to replace both Markus and Sam, a monumental task for a non-blue blood.  But unless Gard really improves his recruiting, they look to be on the Hank Raymonds trajectory.  That said, their team defense was very solid and that alone could forestall a major decline.

[skianth16]

I actually think Cain has improved on the defensive side. It's his offense that didn't develop. I think he has some good upside but just got passed up for now. Keep in mind he's the second youngest scholarship player on the team.

And people wonder why I suggested redshirtting him

Keep in mind, though, that his minutes increased as the season went on. He was getting more minutes in conference play last year than against cupcakes, so he was playing against better competition. His minutes this year have been primarily against cupcakes, making it a little harder to tell where he's at compared to last year.

Given our roster makeup, redshirting Cain made total sense. I'm surprised there was much pushback there. Even so, I'm still surprised at his limited minutes so far. Hopefully the increased competition for minutes at the wing pushes all those guys to get better as the season goes on.