MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Badgerhater on January 21, 2015, 10:49:11 AM
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Posted today on JSOnline
http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/marquette-to-raise-tuition-325--the-lowest-in-four-years-b99429906z1-289212151.html
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Slowing down....
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Prudent move since the UW System is going into its third year of a tuition freeze.
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This is nuts, tuition has gone up approximately $10k/yr from when I started undergrad in 2005. Unbelievable.
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Fantastic news! Now their rate of increase is only TWICE that of annual inflation, not to mention TWICE the rate of starting salary increases for college grads. Way to go guys.
At that rate, a child born today will pay a paltry $88k per year to go to MU when they are 18. No problem!
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This is nuts, tuition has gone up approximately $10k/yr from when I started undergrad in 2005. Unbelievable.
Remember what's important is what the student (on average) pays. Not the list price.
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Remember what's important is what the student (on average) pays. Not the list price.
Then they better be giving out scholarships at a rate increasing at least as fast as the tuition increases or else the list price increases will still be increasing the "what the student pays" rate.
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Remember what's important is what the student (on average) pays. Not the list price.
You've posted this comment before. Do you really think that the price the student pays is not rising every year (significantly) as well?
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Remember what's important is what the student (on average) pays. Not the list price.
I'm surprised they don't make a greater effort to publicize this, other than the "99% receive financial aid" tidbit. Had a discussion with co-workers about college costs recently, and they struggled to make the connection that a significant number pay well below the list price.
Certainly was a factor in my decision; tough to convince your family of the value when looking at UW as a comparison. Then after a lot of work in figuring out the financing plan we get hit with the Ignatius as a nice surprise rather than an upfront decision driver. How many don't bother to apply or give the school a serious look because of sticker shock?
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It was 28 when I started this is getting absurd.
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It's gone up over 100% in 15 years.
And we thought the housing bubble burst was bad....
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Then they better be giving out scholarships at a rate increasing at least as fast as the tuition increases or else the list price increases will still be increasing the "what the student pays" rate.
Could be. I don't know. Remember that Marquette, along with many private schools, marks it up and then discounts it. The end figure is the most important one. I have no idea what that is BTW.
The one thing I wish more private schools would do is give you a "lock-in price" for four years.
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I'm surprised they don't make a greater effort to publicize this, other than the "99% receive financial aid" tidbit.
Does "financial aid" include federally backed (subsidized or unsubsidized) student loans? If so, that's not really aid but a potential anchor.
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You've posted this comment before. Do you really think that the price the student pays is not rising every year (significantly) as well?
I honestly don't know the answer. I would guess yes and I would guess more than inflation. But I would also guess that the "out of pocket" price has gone up at a lesser rate than the "list price."
I think many private schools use "list price" as a PR indicator of "quality." For instance, if the school is listed at $25,000 per year, it doesn't look as good as if it is listed at $40,000 and the student gets a $15,000 Presidential Scholarship.
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Remember what's important is what the student (on average) pays. Not the list price.
Unfortunately, actual cost has also gone up in a big way. A coworker's daughter just got accepted with a $10K Ignatius scholarship, which is exactly what I got when I was accepted in 2004.
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I assume that all of y'all that are bitching about the cost of a Marquette education have donated generously to the endowment. I also assume that none of you are among those that have proposed that Marquette needs to get all new dorms/build its own arena/buy back the medical school/purchase naming rights to the BC/restart the football team/have all classes taught by tenured professors.
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I assume that all of y'all that are bitching about the cost of a Marquette education have donated generously to the endowment.
We'd love to, but we're still writing student loan checks every month....
Want to play a fun game?
We both received bachelor's degrees from Marquette. I have give nothing financially to MU besides my tuition. I'm sure you are very generous as a donor, and I mean that sincerely. But I'd still wager I've put more $$$ in MU's pockets than you have....
If I'm wrong, then good on you for donating over 6 figures to MU. But you would be an exception, not be a typical alum.
MU can't honestly expect additional financial support from alumni they saddle with years of debt.
And I am in no way complaining. My debt is managable, and I don't regret my decision to attend MU. But it does change my decision whether to donate or not.
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Does "financial aid" include federally backed (subsidized or unsubsidized) student loans? If so, that's not really aid but a potential anchor.
That's exactly what it means.
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That's exactly what it means.
Then if MU wants to tout 99% receiving "financial aid" they are being disingenuous at best and actively deceptive at worst. All you need for a federally backed loan is a pulse.
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Unfortunately, actual cost has also gone up in a big way. A coworker's daughter just got accepted with a $10K Ignatius scholarship, which is exactly what I got when I was accepted in 2004.
The Ignatius Scholarships can go up to $15K, I believe. My internet is acting funky and times out on Marquette's website, so I can't look it up. I guess you can tell your co-worker that adjusted for inflation, Marquette just wanted you more. ;D
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I know there are a lot of factors in the tuition cost. (as sultan points out).
But, I also know that tuition cannot just grow infinitely.
If the demand for MU is insanely high (like if they had a waiting list 1 mile long), then go ahead and raise tuition and use it as a way to decrease some demand and raise some more capitol. Put more money in the endowment fund.
But, if they are just cranking up the tuition every year, and in-turn, just upgrading facilities over and over again... well... that's going to be a problem eventually.
You can have the best facilities in the world, but if nobody can afford to go there... the school is going to close. Obviously this is hyperbole, but you get the idea.
There are a lot of schools playing a "keep up with the jones'" game... and I'm afraid of what will happen if/when the bottom falls out.
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I know there are a lot of factors in the tuition cost. (as sultan points out).
But, I also know that tuition cannot just grow infinitely.
If the demand for MU is insanely high (like if they had a waiting list 1 mile long), then go ahead and raise tuition and use it as a way to decrease some demand and raise some more capitol. Put more money in the endowment fund.
But, if they are just cranking up the tuition every year, and in-turn, just upgrading facilities over and over again... well... that's going to be a problem eventually.
You can have the best facilities in the world, but if nobody can afford to go there... the school is going to close. Obviously this is hyperbole, but you get the idea.
There are a lot of schools playing a "keep up with the jones'" game... and I'm afraid of what will happen if/when the bottom falls out.
I think a lot of the smaller or less well known schools are going to close. When they do, their better students will go to places like Marquette.
If federal student loans went away, I cannot even imagine the number of lower end schools that would dry up, or what Marquette would have to offer in tuition to get people to come.
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I know there are a lot of factors in the tuition cost. (as sultan points out).
But, I also know that tuition cannot just grow infinitely.
If the demand for MU is insanely high (like if they had a waiting list 1 mile long), then go ahead and raise tuition and use it as a way to decrease some demand and raise some more capitol. Put more money in the endowment fund.
But, if they are just cranking up the tuition every year, and in-turn, just upgrading facilities over and over again... well... that's going to be a problem eventually.
You can have the best facilities in the world, but if nobody can afford to go there... the school is going to close. Obviously this is hyperbole, but you get the idea.
There are a lot of schools playing a "keep up with the jones'" game... and I'm afraid of what will happen if/when the bottom falls out.
For example, what happens if the President's "free community college" get's approved? Even if it is a "discounted community college" initiative, that could have an enormous impact on the four-year college market.
As I mentioned above, the UW System has frozen tuition for three years now and UIUC is freezing tuition next year. Is the widening gap between private and publics going to be worth the cost in the general public's eyes?
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We'd love to, but we're still writing student loan checks every month....
Want to play a fun game?
We both received bachelor's degrees from Marquette. I have give nothing financially to MU besides my tuition. I'm sure you are very generous as a donor, and I mean that sincerely. But I'd still wager I've put more $$$ in MU's pockets than you have....
If I'm wrong, then good on you for donating over 6 figures to MU. But you would be an exception, not be a typical alum.
MU can't honestly expect additional financial support from alumni they saddle with years of debt.
And I am in no way complaining. My debt is managable, and I don't regret my decision to attend MU. But it does change my decision whether to donate or not.
I had student loans coming out of Marquette as well. And they were very stingy with the scholarships back then. The only person I know for a fact got a merit scholarship during my time there had a 35 on his ACT, and the amount of the scholarship was nothing to write home about.
Here's what else I didn't have when I was at Marquette:
A counseling center
A tutoring center
An entire department of the Office of Residence Life devoted to helping students with private landlords
SSP vans (and drivers)
A sophisticated, high tech security system
Armed safety officers
An entire department devoted to helping students with their computer issues (because we didn't have computers)
An office of Mission and Ministry
These are just the things I came up with off the top of my head. And I am not even counting the dozen or so buildings that have either been built, purchased, or completely renovated in the last 25 years.
I suppose if Marquette didn't have all these things, they wouldn't have to charge so much. But would anyone want to go there?
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I had student loans coming out of Marquette as well. And they were very stingy with the scholarships back then. The only person I know for a fact got a merit scholarship during my time there had a 35 on his ACT, and the amount of the scholarship was nothing to write home about.
Here's what else I didn't have when I was at Marquette:
A counseling center
A tutoring center
An entire department of the Office of Residence Life devoted to helping students with private landlords
SSP vans (and drivers)
A sophisticated, high tech security system
Armed safety officers
An entire department devoted to helping students with their computer issues (because we didn't have computers)
An office of Mission and Ministry
These are just the things I came up with off the top of my head. And I am not even counting the dozen or so buildings that have either been built, purchased, or completely renovated in the last 25 years.
I suppose if Marquette didn't have all these things, they wouldn't have to charge so much. But would anyone want to go there?
I don't want to nitpik, but each of those things are only compensating for some other problem with Marquette that has reduced it's value the last several decades. All the security going on? That's because the campus on on the edge of the ghetto. There are also approximately 5% as many bars and restaurants near campus as 30 years ago. It's not like the value proposition is that much higher today to justify triple digit percent tuition increases every decade or two (sans actual education, which varies by degree and department, I'm sure).
Edited: Let me take an actual example. The counseling center? Do you mean the "career" counseling center? Marquette and other institutions need to feign interest in students careers as the cost of education skyrockets. I can tell you that between my undergrad in A&S and my grad in COB, all of the career "counseling" did squat to find me a job. So I'm not sure where the benefit of this is coming in.
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I had student loans coming out of Marquette as well. And they were very stingy with the scholarships back then. The only person I know for a fact got a merit scholarship during my time there had a 35 on his ACT, and the amount of the scholarship was nothing to write home about.
Here's what else I didn't have when I was at Marquette:
A counseling center
A tutoring center
An entire department of the Office of Residence Life devoted to helping students with private landlords
SSP vans (and drivers)
A sophisticated, high tech security system
Armed safety officers
An entire department devoted to helping students with their computer issues (because we didn't have computers)
An office of Mission and Ministry
These are just the things I came up with off the top of my head. And I am not even counting the dozen or so buildings that have either been built, purchased, or completely renovated in the last 25 years.
I suppose if Marquette didn't have all these things, they wouldn't have to charge so much. But would anyone want to go there?
Fair points. I think we could get rid of some of these things, but not all of them.
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I don't want to nitpik, but each of those things are only compensating for some other problem with Marquette that has reduced it's value the last several decades. All the security going on? That's because the campus on on the edge of the ghetto. There are also approximately 5% as many bars and restaurants near campus as 30 years ago. It's not like the value proposition is that much higher today to justify triple digit percent tuition increases every decade or two (sans actual education, which varies by degree and department, I'm sure).
I take issue with your argument because everything I listed is something that we could have used when I went to school there (except, of course, the computer support). It's a simple fact that students expect more from a university than they did a generation ago.
Even so, the steep increases in tuition have affected nearly every private university in the U.S. If there is an institution of Marquette's quality that is significantly less expensive, with an endowment/enrollment ratio equal to or smaller than Marquette's, I would like to know who it is.
Seriously, I'd like to know. Let's find out what they are doing differently, and let's do that.
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It is insane what MU costs. I have three more checks to write for my son and four for my daughter and CANNOT wait. Hate to say it but will probably transition and establish college fund for the future grandkids.
Young folks out there---you can NEVER make too much money. If you think you have a lot of saved for house, or kids...double it.
I drive my kids crazy but tell them weekly you cannot start saving soon enough for life after 30.
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...If there is an institution of Marquette's quality that is significantly less expensive, with an endowment/enrollment ratio equal to or smaller than Marquette's, I would like to know who it is.
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Not really. There's no *incentive* to reduce cost because federally backed student loans are available to everyone of any circumstance, for damn near any amount, regardless of the risks of repayment ***because the school always gets paid by the feds even if the student defaults***
The schools can charge ANYTHING THEY WANT and they will get paid. There is 0 reason for them to compete on price (besides not screwing their students... but who cares about them right?)
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Even so, the steep increases in tuition have affected nearly every private university in the U.S. If there is an institution of Marquette's quality that is significantly less expensive, with an endowment/enrollment ratio equal to or smaller than Marquette's, I would like to know who it is.
Seriously, I'd like to know. Let's find out what they are doing differently, and let's do that.
I don't disagree with this. In no way is this a MU-centric problem. Every private school has it, and to some extent I think MU handles it better than others. (In some ways worse.)
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It is insane what MU costs. I have three more checks to write for my son and four for my daughter and CANNOT wait. Hate to say it but will probably transition and establish college fund for the future grandkids.
Young folks out there---you can NEVER make too much money. If you think you have a lot of saved for house, or kids...double it.
I drive my kids crazy but tell them weekly you cannot start saving soon enough for life after 30.
I love the people who say that we have an increase in standard of living compared to 25 or 50 years ago. (I'm not talking about social change, etc. etc.). It just seems like we're paying substantially more for housing, education, food and transportation as a percentage of our overall spending than we have for generations. New home prices are at their highest ever (adjusted for inflation). Cars have practically doubled the last decade or so. Tuition up 300% or 400% the last couple decades.
But, hey, iPads. So we're all even.
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I love the people who say that we have an increase in standard of living compared to 25 or 50 years ago. (I'm not talking about social change, etc. etc.). It just seems like we're paying substantially more for housing, education, food and transportation as a percentage of our overall spending than we have for generations. New home prices are at their highest ever (adjusted for inflation). Cars have practically doubled the last decade or so. Tuition up 300% or 400% the last couple decades.
But, hey, iPads. So we're all even.
I will point out that the cars we drive, and the houses we live in, are by and large a lot nicer than a generation ago.
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I will point out that the cars we drive, and the houses we live in, are by and large a lot nicer than a generation ago.
Yup, the idea of a "starter" home is gone, and everyone must have 4 bedrooms and 3 baths...for 2 people!
Oh but the guests! (I guess hotels are out of fashion too).
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I will point out that the cars we drive, and the houses we live in, are by and large a lot nicer than a generation ago.
I agree. Perhaps certain items cost more on an inflation-adjusted basis, but more people can afford them.
For example, how many of us on this board live in nicer houses than the one we grew up in?
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I will point out that the cars we drive, and the houses we live in, are by and large a lot nicer than a generation ago.
Is the value of a bachelor's degree from MU "a lot nice than [it was] a generation ago" too?
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Is the value of a bachelor's degree from MU "a lot nice than [it was] a generation ago" too?
Compared to the alternative of not having a degree? Yes.
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Compared to the alternative of not having a degree? Yes.
Not exactly an apt comparison.
1980 Midsize Sedan < 2015 Midsize Sedan
1980 MU degree>2015 not having a degree;
2015 MU degree > 2015 not having a degree
1980 MU degree ? 2015 MU degree
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Not exactly an apt comparison.
1980 Midsize Sedan < 2015 Midsize Sedan
1980 MU degree>2015 not having a degree;
2015 MU degree > 2015 not having a degree
1980 MU degree ? 2015 MU degree
Overall, Marquette is definitely a better school than it was back then.
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For example, what happens if the President's "free community college" get's approved? Even if it is a "discounted community college" initiative, that could have an enormous impact on the four-year college market.
As I mentioned above, the UW System has frozen tuition for three years now and UIUC is freezing tuition next year. Is the widening gap between private and publics going to be worth the cost in the general public's eyes?
My son is a senior in high school and we are dealing with these questions in a very real and direct way right now. We're very fortunate. We have been able to invest in a quality private high school (after investing in private elementary school) and my son has worked very hard and done well. As someone who attended (and loved) a private college, this has become very difficult for me. To illustrate, I'll address three schools that my son applied to, was accepted by, and offered merit-based aid. The third school, one he really likes, I'll include the scholarship he's already been offered and the best case scenario for the one he's still pursuing.
School No. 1 (In-State Public)
Tuition: 14,000
R&B: 11,000
Scholarship: 9,000 (renewable - another 2,000 possible, but not awarded yet)
Net Cost Per Year: 16,000
School No. 2 (Out-of-State Jesuit)
Tuition: 44,000
R&B: 13,000
Scholarship: 26,000 (renewable)
Net Cost Per Year: 31,000
School No. 3 (Out-of-State Private)
Tuition: 31,000
R&B: 11,000
Scholarship: 19,500 (renewable -- this is best case scenario; only $6,000 awarded so far)
Net Cost Per Year: 22,500
It is really hard for us to justify paying the difference -- either currently or spread out over the next 20 years or so. In fact, we can't justify it. This is made all the more apparent by the fact that the public school is pretty clearly the best school of the three. The Jesuit school offered scholarships totaling more than $100,000 and they're still not even close. It's been a bit of a slow awakening for us, but we're coming to the conclusion that our four kids are almost certainly going to attend public colleges unless we/they can figure out a way to make the cost of the privates competitive.
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Does "financial aid" include federally backed (subsidized or unsubsidized) student loans? If so, that's not really aid but a potential anchor.
Of course. So where are they really between List Price and the misleading "99%"? It would be interesting to know.
The counseling center? Do you mean the "career" counseling center? Marquette and other institutions need to feign interest in students careers as the cost of education skyrockets. I can tell you that between my undergrad in A&S and my grad in COB, all of the career "counseling" did squat to find me a job. So I'm not sure where the benefit of this is coming in.
Guess it's this kind of trade-off - do they continue to half ass things and raise tuition 3.5%, or go balls in on more initiatives at the cost of 6% increases? I mean, when I set up an appointment to ask for help finding a position after school that wasn't within a fart's distance from campus I was told to try to squeeze a login out of the career sites of colleges closer to where I intended to work. Would I have compounded tuition by a fraction of a percent more every year to have received legitimate help? Maybe, but I honestly don't know.
I will point out that the cars we drive, and the houses we live in, are by and large a lot nicer than a generation ago.
Only go to a high-growth area for evidence. You can tell very easily what existed 20, 30 years ago and what didn't.
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nm
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I agree. Perhaps certain items cost more on an inflation-adjusted basis, but more people can afford them.
For example, how many of us on this board live in nicer houses than the one we grew up in?
Well, let's see. My parents bought their first house when they were 20. I paid off my student loans 3 years ago at the age of 27 and am still living in a studio apartment. I could buy a home, but I'm waiting for the next housing crash, which will come soon after the spigot is turned off.
They also built and moved into their "retirement home" a few years ago in their late 40's.
Boomers had it so rough.
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I agree. Perhaps certain items cost more on an inflation-adjusted basis, but more people can afford them.
For example, how many of us on this board live in nicer houses than the one we grew up in?
For Boomers, probably most of you.
For the rest of us, not so much.
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My back of the napkin estimate was that I'd have to save/invest $5k/year/kid in order to have a shot at paying for school for them.
18 years x $5k = $90k + whatever compounding dividends and capital appreciation can do for me hopefully = greater than $100k.
At this rate I wouldn't even come close. Even UW-Madison will compound its way out of being a reasonable cost. At some point there has got to be a market correction. $200k for an undergrad degree is not sustainable.
The only thing sustaining the rapidly increasing tuition costs is the federal loan guarantees, which I think have exceeded $1T. When the feds turn the spigot off there is going to be a wild ride of a crash.
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nm
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I will point out that the cars we drive, and the houses we live in, are by and large a lot nicer than a generation ago.
Yep. And the typical "starter" TV for most people is a 50" high-def model connected to cable or satellite with 100+ channels. Something everybody apparently "needs." My "starter" TV was a 17" with rabbit ears and about 5 channels. And don't get me started on the "need" of everybody over 6 to have the latest iPhone.
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Raise it more! Help keep the riff raff out!
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Well, let's see. My parents bought their first house when they were 20. I paid off my student loans 3 years ago at the age of 27 and am still living in a studio apartment. I could buy a home, but I'm waiting for the next housing crash, which will come soon after the spigot is turned off.
They also built and moved into their "retirement home" a few years ago in their late 40's.
Boomers had it so rough.
+1. To wit:
- It's a lot easier for a Dow at 4k to double, triple, quadruple, etc. than a Dow at 18,000, especially when daily rates of change have remained essentially the same. You know how much Boomer wealth was created with this? You think the Dow will be at 72,000 in 2035? No way in hell.
- Tuition at $500 a semester must have been really rough. "I worked my way through college and graduated with zero debt" is impossible for 99% of students today.
- That $25,000 starter house must have been a real bitch to afford.
Etc, etc, etc.
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All I know is that it costs a lot of money to attend a private school these days but the reality is that state schools have dramatically increased enrollment making it very tough to graduate in 4 years. I think all universities need to work hard to contain costs, MU included.
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All I know is that it costs a lot of money to attend a private school these days but the reality is that state schools have dramatically increased enrollment making it very tough to graduate in 4 years. I think all universities need to work hard to contain costs, MU included.
That's a fair point too. Almost everyone I know who went to a UW-something school took at least 5 years.
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I assume that all of y'all that are bitching about the cost of a Marquette education have donated generously to the endowment. I also assume that none of you are among those that have proposed that Marquette needs to get all new dorms/build its own arena/buy back the medical school/purchase naming rights to the BC/restart the football team/have all classes taught by tenured professors.
Hey now... MU's on-campus MBB arena, a/k/a The Benny B Memorial Thunderdome, which is slated for groundbreaking sometime in the late 2030s will be entirely funded by donations from the MUScoop Foundation and the Benny B Family Trust.
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I love the people who say that we have an increase in standard of living compared to 25 or 50 years ago. (I'm not talking about social change, etc. etc.). It just seems like we're paying substantially more for housing, education, food and transportation as a percentage of our overall spending than we have for generations. New home prices are at their highest ever (adjusted for inflation). Cars have practically doubled the last decade or so. Tuition up 300% or 400% the last couple decades.
But, hey, iPads. So we're all even.
Not to mention the cost of government. When I attended MU the sales tax in New Jersey was 2%, now 7%; there was no state income tax, now 3.5 -10% based on income; property tax was 400/year, now 10000 per year. I could go on but you get the picture.
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That's a fair point too. Almost everyone I know who went to a UW-something school took at least 5 years.
One of the reasons I got out after one semester at UW. My advisor told me I would be on a five year schedule. MU promised I could get out in four if I took a reasonable course load. I stayed one summer and came away with an extra major and minor on top of it.
Not to mention the cost of government. When I attended MU the sales tax in New Jersey was 2%, now 7%; there was no state income tax, now 3.5 -10% based on income; property tax was 400/year, now 10000 per year. I could go on but you get the picture.
A co-worker in Jersey pays $11,000 more in property taxes than me, on a home valued at $100k more. Just crazy.
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That's a fair point too. Almost everyone I know who went to a UW-something school took at least 5 years.
How many of those people either changed majors or were undecided for a length of time?
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How many of those people either changed majors or were undecided for a length of time?
Perhaps some, but certainly not all.
My mom teaches and advises at UW-Oshkosh. She has also said that 5 years is par for the course, at least in her department. There just aren't enough spaces in many classes, so you have to wait to take your requirements.
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Not really. There's no *incentive* to reduce cost because federally backed student loans are available to everyone of any circumstance, for damn near any amount, regardless of the risks of repayment ***because the school always gets paid by the feds even if the student defaults***
The schools can charge ANYTHING THEY WANT and they will get paid. There is 0 reason for them to compete on price (besides not screwing their students... but who cares about them right?)
Took awhile, but someone nailed it.
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My son is a senior in high school and we are dealing with these questions in a very real and direct way right now. We're very fortunate. We have been able to invest in a quality private high school (after investing in private elementary school) and my son has worked very hard and done well. As someone who attended (and loved) a private college, this has become very difficult for me. To illustrate, I'll address three schools that my son applied to, was accepted by, and offered merit-based aid. The third school, one he really likes, I'll include the scholarship he's already been offered and the best case scenario for the one he's still pursuing.
School No. 1 (In-State Public)
Tuition: 14,000
R&B: 11,000
Scholarship: 9,000 (renewable - another 2,000 possible, but not awarded yet)
Net Cost Per Year: 16,000
School No. 2 (Out-of-State Jesuit)
Tuition: 44,000
R&B: 13,000
Scholarship: 26,000 (renewable)
Net Cost Per Year: 31,000
School No. 3 (Out-of-State Private)
Tuition: 31,000
R&B: 11,000
Scholarship: 19,500 (renewable -- this is best case scenario; only $6,000 awarded so far)
Net Cost Per Year: 22,500
It is really hard for us to justify paying the difference -- either currently or spread out over the next 20 years or so. In fact, we can't justify it. This is made all the more apparent by the fact that the public school is pretty clearly the best school of the three. The Jesuit school offered scholarships totaling more than $100,000 and they're still not even close. It's been a bit of a slow awakening for us, but we're coming to the conclusion that our four kids are almost certainly going to attend public colleges unless we/they can figure out a way to make the cost of the privates competitive.
With only two kids, it's not as rough. Son is a sophomore at private Catholic college that offers no automatic scholarships (the kind Sultan described), but lots of aid to those with need (those in the middle get squeezed). Basically paying max tuition.
Daughter is a senior in high school, applying to 7 catholic colleges plus one private non-Catholic. She has heard from 4, and 3 of those (including MU) give the "automatic" scholarship of between $10,000 and $24,000 per year (Nova does not). To a certain extent, it seems to be based on grades/test scores, but it is not clear at all and it seems that most kids get them.
The three schools from which she has not heard do not offer the automatic (we call it "the Sheesh"), so I am pretty sure she will go to one of those or Nova. :)
BTW, Dayton does it right. They give you a number that you will pay all four years. If tuition increases, so does your aid package. In addition, as long as you fill out a FAFSA form, your books are covered - doesn't matter whether you qualify for any aid. Given that some of these freakin' books are $250 plus, that is huge.
As we started saving for this before the kids were born, they have a choice - they can get a "credit" for any 529 money saved due to a scholarship that we will apply to grad school or use all of that 529 money now. My parents did a similar thing for me (when tuition at MU was around $2,500 for the year): I was able to bank for grad school the semester they didn't have to pay tuition when I finished MU a semester early. (And to make it better, I stayed at MU for that last semester and worked but didn't take any classes-worst roommate ever).
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BTW, Dayton does it right. They give you a number that you will pay all four years. If tuition increases, so does your aid package. In addition, as long as you fill out a FAFSA form, your books are covered - doesn't matter whether you qualify for any aid. Given that some of these freakin' books are $250 plus, that is huge.
Still waiting to hear from Dayton. Based on what I've heard, I think we should get a pretty decent package there, and I really like the locked in price. I also like the campus owned houses. But it's still going to be hard for them to compete with the public school.
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No doubt. And those essentially university owned neighborhoods are impressive.
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Lloyd, I'd like to be careful about the term 'automatic'. What's being described are the merit based scholarships that private universities offer to entice their most attractive applicants to matriculate. Think of it a bit like airline seat pricing. Schools like Marquette attempt to raise their profile/ranking by attracting the best. Besides all the nice buildings and fancy programs, they all compete with the almighty dollar.
First, I don't want to raise the false hope that a majority of applicants qualify for significant merit based money. The mean enrolled Frosh each August is a Top 25% approximate 27 ACT kid. I looked for statistics on the application pool (I used to know these when I served on the Admissions Committee) and couldn't come up with them quickly but I believe the average ACT for the 22,000 annual applications is right around 24. So that sets our universe these days. As I think most here know, Marquette accepts roughly 50% of the applicant pool (about 11,000) to achieve the desired 1,950-2,000 Frosh enrollment.
Okay, now to merit based scholarships. It varies year to year and this way oversimplifies it but I believe that very modest scholarships (like $2,000 - $3,000 annually) start at right around 27 or 28 on the ACT, among many other factors of course, basically right at the average enrolled student line but at a dollar figure that doesn't make much of a difference. Of course they go up from there as the student becomes more attractive to the university getting up to approximately 50% of tuition for the best and the brightest. (Yes, there are a handful of full rides but I digress.) Marquette like to mention that 90% of their students get some form of either need based or merit based financial support. But its important to know that for many it's not huge money.
One more reality. Marquette traditionally lags its competition by a meaningful amount. This can be traced directly to the endowment and represents a very major hurdle if the goal is to move from US News #75 to something like US News #50. Not saying that's the goal these days but we like to talk like we're BC or GTown. The good news is that fundraising has really picked up in the last 6 months. Hope that's informative for folks.
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Still waiting to hear from Dayton. Based on what I've heard, I think we should get a pretty decent package there, and I really like the locked in price. I also like the campus owned houses. But it's still going to be hard for them to compete with the public school.
A major bonus with UD.... you don't have to worry about your kid begging you for a new Jetta, BMW, Grand Cherokee, etc. to take to college. Just buy them a used Chevy Cavalier for their HS graduation and they'll fit right in.
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A major bonus with UD.... you don't have to worry about your kid begging you for a new Jetta, BMW, Grand Cherokee, etc. to take to college. Just buy them a used Chevy Cavalier for their HS graduation and they'll fit right in.
A new Jetta?
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MU has over a half billion in endowment, so things like building new dorms and classroom facilities should not be an issue as it relates to tuition. It has been historically low but on the rise finally with the new regime. That said, in the near past, MU has spent a lot of this money on administrative buildings, rehabbing outdated existing schools, and a new Jesuit Residence. The new Law school is a prime addition but does not benefit the undergrad student who is burdened with the overwhelming majority of the operating costs.
Lovell has stated he wants to return the focus back to the general student body via tuition cost control and scholarship grants, an innovation curriculum agenda, and direct general facilities like modern day dorm and academic facilities. Let's hope so.
http://www.marquette.edu/endowment/endowment-performance.shtml
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Took awhile, but someone nailed it.
Yep. Why control costs when you can make everyone think they can "afford" higher prices with federal loans?
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Raise it more! Help keep the riff raff out!
There are members of the BOT who believe this.
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MU has over a half billion in endowment, so things like building new dorms and classroom facilities should not be an issue as it relates to tuition. It has been historically low but on the rise finally with the new regime. That said, in the near past, MU has spent a lot of this money on administrative buildings, rehabbing outdated existing schools, and a new Jesuit Residence. The new Law school is a prime addition but does not benefit the undergrad student who is burdened with the overwhelming majority of the operating costs.
Lovell has stated he wants to return the focus back to the general student body via tuition cost control and scholarship grants, an innovation curriculum agenda, and direct general facilities like modern day dorm and academic facilities. Let's hope so.
http://www.marquette.edu/endowment/endowment-performance.shtml
I'm sure you appreciate that endowment gifts must be used for the purpose intended by the donor. Buildings are relatively easy because folks get to put their names over the front door. But no doubt big money donors can be guided to a certain extent. (Fund this building for $xx or endow this Chair for $xx.) Merit based direct scholarships come out of 'Current Use' scholarship funds just as athletic scholarships come out of the current use Blue/Gold Fund.
Nice to see that we've passed $500 million. I hadn't known that until now. Thanks Dr.
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The question I have is when the student loan bubble bursts, and hundreds of schools die off, how will MU fare? How are we preparing for that eventuality?
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The question I have is when the student loan bubble bursts, and hundreds of schools die off, how will MU fare? How are we preparing for that eventuality?
Well, the simple answer is that we're working very hard to alter the curve. It's a little like fixing Social Security for the government. Bottom line, MU absolutely understands that changes are necessary. The process began with the Strategic Plan. Real cost containment began in the last couple of years. Fundraising has picked up considerably under Lovell. But it's a challenge for all private universities, especially the small regional ones.
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Not really. There's no *incentive* to reduce cost because federally backed student loans are available to everyone of any circumstance, for damn near any amount, regardless of the risks of repayment ***because the school always gets paid by the feds even if the student defaults***
The schools can charge ANYTHING THEY WANT and they will get paid. There is 0 reason for them to compete on price (besides not screwing their students... but who cares about them right?)
Federal loans are a tricky business. I understand the issue vis-a-vis cost control. However IMO you have to have a loan program otherwise you are simply making higher education only affordable to those who can write a check. The other issue is that people who want to eliminate (or modify) the program seem to have the attitude that the consumer is dumb. And yeah, there are a lot of dumb consumers. But there are also a lot of smart consumers that understand that a monthly student loan payment with a degree is better than a high school education.
If you can find a way to balance the loan programs with a cost control aspect, I am all for it.
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Federal loans are a tricky business. I understand the issue vis-a-vis cost control. However IMO you have to have a loan program otherwise you are simply making higher education only affordable to those who can write a check. The other issue is that people who want to eliminate (or modify) the program seem to have the attitude that the consumer is dumb. And yeah, there are a lot of dumb consumers. But there are also a lot of smart consumers that understand that a monthly student loan payment with a degree is better than a high school education.
If you can find a way to balance the loan programs with a cost control aspect, I am all for it.
Simple - Remove the discharge exemption on student loans in bankruptcy court and require the recipient institution to carry a portion of all loans granted to their students on their own balance sheet. You'd be surprised at how quickly tuition and loans would get under control.
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Simple - Remove the discharge exemption on student loans in bankruptcy court and require the recipient institution to carry a portion of all loans granted to their students on their own balance sheet. You'd be surprised at how quickly tuition and loans would get under control.
Not bad.
I would also limit the increase "cost of attendance" that is reported to the Department of Education to the rate of inflation.
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Federal loans are a tricky business. I understand the issue vis-a-vis cost control. However IMO you have to have a loan program otherwise you are simply making higher education only affordable to those who can write a check. The other issue is that people who want to eliminate (or modify) the program seem to have the attitude that the consumer is dumb. And yeah, there are a lot of dumb consumers. But there are also a lot of smart consumers that understand that a monthly student loan payment with a degree is better than a high school education.
If you can find a way to balance the loan programs with a cost control aspect, I am all for it.
Step one: Make the issuance of loans contingent on a showing of reasonable chance of successful repayment. Do this by evaluating schools and (just spitballing here) making an aggressive accreditation process to weed out the scam schools.
For those of us unfortunate enough to be lawyers, we complain that schools like Thomas Cooley and Thomas Jefferson School of Law exist and are ABA accredited. Those (God awful) schools charge almost as much as Harvard, because they can and will still get paid. If the feds looked at the school and said "hmmm, 35% employment rate, we're not backing loans to students who matriculate there," then we might be able to stop the truly oppressive loaning of money.
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MU has over a half billion in endowment, so things like building new dorms and classroom facilities should not be an issue as it relates to tuition. It has been historically low but on the rise finally with the new regime. That said, in the near past, MU has spent a lot of this money on administrative buildings, rehabbing outdated existing schools, and a new Jesuit Residence. The new Law school is a prime addition but does not benefit the undergrad student who is burdened with the overwhelming majority of the operating costs.
Lovell has stated he wants to return the focus back to the general student body via tuition cost control and scholarship grants, an innovation curriculum agenda, and direct general facilities like modern day dorm and academic facilities. Let's hope so.
http://www.marquette.edu/endowment/endowment-performance.shtml
This is good to hear... and from a big picture perspective:
MU struggled with enrollment in the late 80's and early 90's. The neighborhood was bad, most of the dorms were outdated, enrollment was down.
MU did get a new the new AMU, Campus Town, and Cudahy, but for the most part, capital improvements were limited/differed. (I'm not sure when the Rec Center was built)
Therefore, in the past 20 years, MU has had a good deal of "catching up" to do with some capital improvements (dorms, admin. buildings, classrooms, etc.).
Now, I completely understand this, and I understand why MU has been spending money on improving the school facilities, and needs the money to afford these facilities.
BUT, we are reaching a point where MU is going to have to learn to "make do" with some of what they have. IMO, they can't just keep cranking up the capitol campaigns and the yearly tuition and shrug and say they "have to keep up with other schools". That's a mistake of epic proportions.
MU doesn't need to be a used Honda, but it also doesn't need to be a Range Rover either. There is a good amount of middle ground where MU can provide a high end education and experience at a competitive rate.
VALUE is going to become more and more important. Federal loans or not, people are eventually compare X to Y, and if X is 30% cheaper, the prospective student will live without the brand new Rec Center that Y just built.
Sorry for the rant, but over the past couple of years I've come to the stark realization that my kids will likely NOT have the option to attend MU because the costs are just becoming too burdensome.
MU needs to have a good long term vision of how they are going to attract students 15-20 years from now. $150K in tuition probably isn't going to work.
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Sorry for the rant, but over the past couple of years I've come to the stark realization that my kids will likely NOT have the option to attend MU because the costs are just becoming too burdensome.
Welcome to the club. It's a sad thing for a parent to realize. I'm finding that the five stages of grief apply.
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The question I have is when the student loan bubble bursts, and hundreds of schools die off, how will MU fare? How are we preparing for that eventuality?
I wonder when this will happen. We've kept other federal programs going long after they should have bellied up. We did escalate extremely quickly.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/FGCCSAQ027S
Will be incredibly interesting to see. I think MU would do just fine, because I think all the smarter kids at the USN&WR 100-200 ranked schools will have to go somewhere.
Even at MU, professor salaries and administrator headcounts would have to come down dramatically.
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Even at MU, professor salaries and administrator headcounts would have to come down dramatically.
Widespread rightsizing of academia to eliminate unnecessary positions that don't do any "teaching?"
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Widespread rightsizing of academia to eliminate unnecessary positions that don't do any "teaching?"
There is some justification for an increase in non-teaching positions. Want to raise more money? Want to provide high level IT for students and faculty? The primary cost of both are people.
I know from personal experience that there are other examples that are less easy to defend. But it isn't as simple to label one position as "unnecessary" but not another.
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Has the administration said anything about online offerings as a revenue stream? We really fell behind the curve, and a lot of excellent schools have online graduate degree / certificate programs. Are these profitable for the institutions? Would they do anything to help subsidize the cost of on-site undergraduate tuition?
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Has the administration said anything about online offerings as a revenue stream? We really fell behind the curve, and a lot of excellent schools have online graduate degree / certificate programs. Are these profitable for the institutions? Would they do anything to help subsidize the cost of on-site undergraduate tuition?
I work for a four year public that was an "early entrant" into the online field. It is becoming less and less profitable for a number of reasons. The number of entrants into the field is huge, but the marketplace has stopped growing to a large extent. So more providers are fighting over the same number of students.
Furthermore you have to provide a quality online product. And those do exist. I have seen some schools whose online offerings are actually really good. But you can't just take a good classroom professor and expect him to duplicate his course online. Good online professors are the ones who understand how to make the most of that medium. How do you encourage quality online discussions, that also give you an indication of how much the student truly understands about the topic? How do you set up group projects that students can do without seeing one another face to face?
It would not be easy for Marquette to enter that marketplace now. The MBA field is completely saturated, and you might just end up cannibalizing your classroom offerings anyway. And I doubt they want to do something in the bachelor's area unless it is just an alternative delivery of a few courses.
If they would have thought of the idea 15-20 years ago they could have gotten some "first mover" advantages, and built up a strong reputation in the online field. (An MBA from Marquette is obviously going to mean more than one from Upper Iowa or Cardinal Stritch.) But it might be too late now.
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This is good to hear... and from a big picture perspective:
MU struggled with enrollment in the late 80's and early 90's. The neighborhood was bad, most of the dorms were outdated, enrollment was down.
MU did get a new the new AMU, Campus Town, and Cudahy, but for the most part, capital improvements were limited/differed. (I'm not sure when the Rec Center was built)
Therefore, in the past 20 years, MU has had a good deal of "catching up" to do with some capital improvements (dorms, admin. buildings, classrooms, etc.).
Now, I completely understand this, and I understand why MU has been spending money on improving the school facilities, and needs the money to afford these facilities.
BUT, we are reaching a point where MU is going to have to learn to "make do" with some of what they have. IMO, they can't just keep cranking up the capitol campaigns and the yearly tuition and shrug and say they "have to keep up with other schools". That's a mistake of epic proportions.
MU doesn't need to be a used Honda, but it also doesn't need to be a Range Rover either. There is a good amount of middle ground where MU can provide a high end education and experience at a competitive rate.
VALUE is going to become more and more important. Federal loans or not, people are eventually compare X to Y, and if X is 30% cheaper, the prospective student will live without the brand new Rec Center that Y just built.
Sorry for the rant, but over the past couple of years I've come to the stark realization that my kids will likely NOT have the option to attend MU because the costs are just becoming too burdensome.
MU needs to have a good long term vision of how they are going to attract students 15-20 years from now. $150K in tuition probably isn't going to work.
Well thought out and written Canned. Let me add this. For those of you who graduated around 1990, Marquette is a vastly different place. And if I were to give credit to only one individual (a silly notion of course), Bob Wild is that person. So if he writes you a letter or calls you in his new retirement role with University Advancement, please read/listen attentively. Heck, it turned out to be good advice for Mike Lovell who reportedly told Fr. Wild 'no' more than once last Spring. We all benefit from the fact that Bob can be awfully persuasive when he wants to be. We owe him a debt we will never be able to repay.
There are a couple of things still on the block now that the Historic Campus Project is nearing completion after a sizable contribution announced a few months ago for Johnston Hall.
Among others:
- DLC (new Engineering) is only in Phase 1 so far. But thank goodness they aren't getting ahead of themselves.
- The Den school expansion is also currently underway.
- Bus. Ad. wants a building but my guess is they will probably have to wait unless some well healed individual steps forward.
- My personal view is that Life Sciences is a greater need but nothing is on the agenda so far to the best of my knowledge.
- Student housing is on the wish list too but again I think that'll be awhile so we all get to complain about the McCormick eyesore for a few more years. As I've said before, I personally believe Marquette will look to acquire rather than build.
- And lastly, the Rec Center was built around 1977 or so. Hence, the huge commitment to tennis which was particularly popular at the time.
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Well thought out and written Canned. Let me add this. For those of you who graduated around 1990, Marquette is a vastly different place. And if I were to give credit to only one individual (a silly notion of course), Bob Wild is that person. So if he writes you a letter or calls you in his new retirement role with University Advancement, please read/listen attentively. Heck, it turned out to be good advice for Mike Lovell who reportedly told Fr. Wild 'no' more than once last Spring. We all benefit from the fact that Bob can be awfully persuasive when he wants to be. We owe him a debt we will never be able to repay.
There are a couple of things still on the block now that the Historic Campus Project is nearing completion after a sizable contribution announced a few months ago for Johnston Hall.
Among others:
- DLC (new Engineering) is only in Phase 1 so far. But thank goodness they aren't getting ahead of themselves.
- The Den school expansion is also currently underway.
- Bus. Ad. wants a building but my guess is they will probably have to wait unless some well healed individual steps forward.
- My personal view is that Life Sciences is a greater need but nothing is on the agenda so far to the best of my knowledge.
- Student housing is on the wish list too but again I think that'll be awhile so we all get to complain about the McCormick eyesore for a few more years. As I've said before, I personally believe Marquette will look to acquire rather than build.
- And lastly, the Rec Center was built around 1977 or so. Hence, the huge commitment to tennis which was particularly popular at the time.
I know capital improvements are likely a neverending need, but it just seems like a pretty viscous cycle right now. After everything you listed above is complete, it'll be time for a new Rec Center, and after that, a new AMU, and after that Cudahy will come down, etc. etc.
At some point, MU is going to have to work with what it has. I'm not saying I'm against progress, but ever since I entered MU as a Frosh (in 1998), it's been "BUILD BABY BUILD!", and tuition in that time has sky rocketed.
Do all of the facility upgrades really make MU worth 30-40% more than when I attended?
I hate to sound like such an old fart, but not everything has to be "new" to be "good".
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I hate to sound like such an old fart, but not everything has to be "new" to be "good".
I have expressed a desire to check the increasing tuition, but it is plainly obvious that the facilities for some departments have contributed to a much better learning environment for the students in a tangible way like the new Engineering building and its fancy toys. I just think we need to prioritize the capital expenditures, and it's hard to imagine facilities more in need of upgrade or replacement than the science buildings. New labs would be night and day for our science students and faculty.
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I have expressed a desire to check the increasing tuition, but it is plainly obvious that the facilities for some departments have contributed to a much better learning environment for the students in a tangible way like the new Engineering building and its fancy toys. I just think we need to prioritize the capital expenditures, and it's hard to imagine facilities more in need of upgrade or replacement than the science buildings. New labs would be night and day for our science students and faculty.
Totally fair.
I'm not in any position to know or evaluate specific needs. I can't even pretend that I am.
What I am saying is that in the past 15 years, a significant amount of facilities have been replaced/upgraded. That's awesome. BUT, tuition has also gone through the roof. It's not sustainable.
So, I understand there are some things that will need upgrades in the near future, but I hope they find away to stabilize tuition and capital expenditures for a while. A school with all brand new facilities that costs $150K per year probably isn't a good idea. That's where MU is headed right now.
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One thing to focus on Canned is that it's the 4th assistant to the Adjunct Director of South American internship opportunities that makes it so darn expensive. And also understand that campus infrastructure is a selling point for a university in its effort to attract top students. I'd personally say that student housing ought be a high priority for Marquette. We lag the standard pretty significantly these days. And again, I'd buy and renovate. McCabe is simply stunning with its 1920s fully renovated architecture.
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It would be fascinating to see a % breakdown of what the tuition dollars pay for. 15% to facilities, 50% to faculty, or whatever. I kind of doubt that information gets shared though.
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It would be fascinating to see a % breakdown of what the tuition dollars pay for. 15% to facilities, 50% to faculty, or whatever. I kind of doubt that information gets shared though.
Didn't click through, but I am guessing you can find what you need here:
http://www.marquette.edu/financeoffice/reports.shtml
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Lloyd, I'd like to be careful about the term 'automatic'. What's being described are the merit based scholarships that private universities offer to entice their most attractive applicants to matriculate. Think of it a bit like airline seat pricing. Schools like Marquette attempt to raise their profile/ranking by attracting the best. Besides all the nice buildings and fancy programs, they all compete with the almighty dollar.
First, I don't want to raise the false hope that a majority of applicants qualify for significant merit based money. The mean enrolled Frosh each August is a Top 25% approximate 27 ACT kid. I looked for statistics on the application pool (I used to know these when I served on the Admissions Committee) and couldn't come up with them quickly but I believe the average ACT for the 22,000 annual applications is right around 24. So that sets our universe these days. As I think most here know, Marquette accepts roughly 50% of the applicant pool (about 11,000) to achieve the desired 1,950-2,000 Frosh enrollment.
Okay, now to merit based scholarships. It varies year to year and this way oversimplifies it but I believe that very modest scholarships (like $2,000 - $3,000 annually) start at right around 27 or 28 on the ACT, among many other factors of course, basically right at the average enrolled student line but at a dollar figure that doesn't make much of a difference. Of course they go up from there as the student becomes more attractive to the university getting up to approximately 50% of tuition for the best and the brightest. (Yes, there are a handful of full rides but I digress.) Marquette like to mention that 90% of their students get some form of either need based or merit based financial support. But its important to know that for many it's not huge money.
One more reality. Marquette traditionally lags its competition by a meaningful amount. This can be traced directly to the endowment and represents a very major hurdle if the goal is to move from US News #75 to something like US News #50. Not saying that's the goal these days but we like to talk like we're BC or GTown. The good news is that fundraising has really picked up in the last 6 months. Hope that's informative for folks.
Good poimt--my experience is based on a small sample size of my kids and their friends, not any sort of review of the overall numbers.
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I work for a four year public that was an "early entrant" into the online field. It is becoming less and less profitable for a number of reasons. The number of entrants into the field is huge, but the marketplace has stopped growing to a large extent. So more providers are fighting over the same number of students.
Furthermore you have to provide a quality online product. And those do exist. I have seen some schools whose online offerings are actually really good. But you can't just take a good classroom professor and expect him to duplicate his course online. Good online professors are the ones who understand how to make the most of that medium. How do you encourage quality online discussions, that also give you an indication of how much the student truly understands about the topic? How do you set up group projects that students can do without seeing one another face to face?
It would not be easy for Marquette to enter that marketplace now. The MBA field is completely saturated, and you might just end up cannibalizing your classroom offerings anyway. And I doubt they want to do something in the bachelor's area unless it is just an alternative delivery of a few courses.
If they would have thought of the idea 15-20 years ago they could have gotten some "first mover" advantages, and built up a strong reputation in the online field. (An MBA from Marquette is obviously going to mean more than one from Upper Iowa or Cardinal Stritch.) But it might be too late now.
Great information, thanks for the assessment.