MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: muwarrior69 on May 14, 2018, 02:25:27 PM
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http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/14/pf/college/class-of-2018-starting-salary/index.html
To put this in perspective my staring salary in January 1970 was $9000 with a BS in Chemistry and Biology. My MU education cost 12K (tuition, room & board and books), the cost of a new car was $2500-$3500, median price of a new home was 25K and the cost of regular gas was 28 cent a gallon for regular. That is about 1/10 of what those things cost today making my starting salary around 90K if were graduating in 2018 with just a BS.
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Workers Unite!
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My student loan debt to starting salary ratio was about 60%. I imagine is notable higher on average for new graduates today.
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50 thou a year will buy a lot of beer.
Things are goin great
And they're only getting better.....
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theBabyDavid took home a cool $1,200 a month which went miles in Enid, OK. Life was good.
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50 thou a year will buy a lot of beer.
Things are goin great
And they're only getting better.....
Senior Week theme song, 1987
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Executive salaries have significantly outpaced "regular" workers for decades. No problem though. I'm sure it'll all be fine when the money collects at the top and never comes back down.
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Can we get a breakdown of guys vs. gals, a1na?
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I wonder how much longer this is sustainable
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I wonder how much longer this is sustainable
At some point, it will end in revolution. The result of trickle down economics, better described as the redistribuing of wealth from the poor to the rich, will be a violent revolution. Not sure if it will be in my lifetime, but I'd be surprised if we got out of the 21st century without severe upheaval.
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At some point, it will end in revolution. The result of trickle down economics, better described as the redistribuing of wealth from the poor to the rich, will be a violent revolution. Not sure if it will be in my lifetime, but I'd be surprised if we got out of the 21st century without severe upheaval.
Really? Take another hit off the bong. Good lord.
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At some point, it will end in revolution. The result of trickle down economics, better described as the redistribuing of wealth from the poor to the rich, will be a violent revolution. Not sure if it will be in my lifetime, but I'd be surprised if we got out of the 21st century without severe upheaval.
Thou doth protest too much.
I think if public sector guys like you took into account the total value of your compensation , you would be surprised how wealthy you are relative to the rest of society who has to work to pay your salary, lifetime health and pensions that rise and are guaranteed regardless of merit.
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Thou doth protest too much.
I think if public sector guys like you took into account the total value of your compensation , you would be surprised how wealthy you are relative to the rest of society who has to work to pay your salary, lifetime health and pensions that rise and are guaranteed regardless of merit.
Why do you think I'm talking about me? I'm not talking about me.
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Why do you think I'm talking about me? I'm not talking about me.
Because other than resorting to personal attacks and trying to drag the whole conversation through the muck, there is no rational, effective response to this thread that fits his strange, in-character message board personality.
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Thou doth protest too much.
I think if public sector guys like you took into account the total value of your compensation , you would be surprised how wealthy you are relative to the rest of society who has to work to pay your salary, lifetime health and pensions that rise and are guaranteed regardless of merit.
So just like the police, fire, and military then?
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http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/14/pf/college/class-of-2018-starting-salary/index.html
To put this in perspective my staring salary in January 1970 was $9000 with a BS in Chemistry and Biology. My MU education cost 12K (tuition, room & board and books), the cost of a new car was $2500-$3500, median price of a new home was 25K and the cost of regular gas was 28 cent a gallon for regular. That is about 1/10 of what those things cost today making my starting salary around 90K if were graduating in 2018 with just a BS.
I don't totally believe that average number either. These averages are usually based off students hired at large companies and discount a ton of students hired at the greater number of smaller employers.
I remember back in 1991 being asked this question when interviewing for my first job.
"What salary are you expecting?"
"The average starting salary for engineers is listed as $X."
"Well, we are not offering that." was always the response.
Almost no one I knew seemed to get the average figure either regardless of occupation.
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Brew is right. The longer we bury our heads in the sand, the worse it will be for us in the upper-middle and upper classes.
Severe income inequality is bad for EVERYONE, including the rich. Because the ultimate outcome is not good for us. We are all better long term with less income inequality.
The only people it is good for are rich people over 60. Because they probably won't live to deal with the consequences.
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Brew is right. The longer we bury our heads in the sand, the worse it will be for us in the upper-middle and upper classes.
Severe income inequality is bad for EVERYONE, including the rich. Because the ultimate outcome is not good for us. We are all better long term with less income inequality.
The only people it is good for are rich people over 60. Because they probably won't live to deal with the consequences.
There is no such thing as income inequality. People earn at rates commensurate with their value and the ability of others to do their work. Today in New York City there are crane operators that make $500,000.
Again I will point out public sector employees are endowed with great wealth due to the pension and lifetime health benefits they receive. Further they have tenure , civil service etc which make their jobs permanent. I served on several educational and government boards and we calculate the wealth impact of every teacher we granted tenure to at roughly $3,000,000.
The income inequality crowd conveniently forgets to calculate the massive wealth transfer to the public sector that is going on in this country. It is paid for by the private sector who does not have the same benefits and protections.
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There is no such thing as income inequality. People earn at rates commensurate with their value and the ability of others to do their work. Today in New York City there are crane operators that make $500,000.
Again I will point out public sector employees are endowed with great wealth due to the pension and lifetime health benefits they receive. Further they have tenure , civil service etc which make their jobs permanent. I served on several educational and government boards and we calculate the wealth impact of every teacher we granted tenure to at roughly $3,000,000.
The income inequality crowd conveniently forgets to calculate the massive wealth transfer to the public sector that is going on in this country. It is paid for by the private sector who does not have the same benefits and protections.
Haha. I've seen some conservative thinkers (George Will, Ed Conard, etc.) argue that income inequality isn't that bad, or that we shouldn't try to fix it, but I've never heard anyone completely deny its existence before. I think you are quite alone in that belief.
I also think you are dead wrong about public sector workers. Both of my parents are/have been Wisconsin state employees and are middle class, but far from wealthy. My dad has both worked in the private and public sector in equivalent jobs and the private sector has been much more lucrative. Sure, his health insurance is a bit better and he has an okay pension, but his public sector income is like 60% of what it was in the private sector.
My mom also recently switched over to the private sector because it was much, much more lucrative. She hadn't gotten a raise in like 8 years from the state. Her salary was atrocious. She left and got a 30% raise.
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There is no such thing as income inequality. People earn at rates commensurate with their value and the ability of others to do their work. Today in New York City there are crane operators that make $500,000.
1. You cannot possibly believe this. Even the National Review is publishing commentary about the existence of income inequality and its negative impacts.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/11/economic-inequality-crony-capitalism-conservatives/
2. How does a crane operator's salary in New York City prove income equality does not exist?
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This may surprise you, MUFINY, but the public sector also pays taxes. When I worked for the State of Minnesota, I often joked that a certain amount of my salary just went to pay me. In addition, public sector employees work hard and are vastly undervalued by people with your attitude, and government professionals are underpaid relative to market by 25-50%. Most of those are not protected by civil service, but serve at the pleasure of the government's leaders. Also, times are changing rapidly. In many government jobs, employees no longer receive health benefits in retirement and are being asked to contribute an increasingly higher percentage of their income toward their health care each year. Finally, many of the defined benefit retirement plans (pensions) are being converted to defined contribution plans (401ks).
At the same time, folks with your attitude are frequently the first ones to complain loudly when an overworked civil servant in an understaffed environment (see: DMV) fails to jump immediately when demanded. Greater tolerance and grace would benefit many in our society.
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My student loan debt to starting salary ratio was about 60%. I imagine is notable higher on average for new graduates today.
I graduated in 2012 and mine was about 2:1. Fortunate to be in a speciality field with great raises that allowed me to pay down aggressively - just paid off this year. No better feeling. Just in time to introduce Jr and immediately putting that money into a 529.
Wife and I will be able to save aggressively to pay for him to attend pretty much free. Not sustainable for kids 2 and beyond. Mrs GB will be pursuing her terminal degree with the goal of a Jesuit university job.
I agree with Brew. Either it will only be the elites that can afford college 2 decades from now or it will be free. Because we are a society where 50% of Americans enjoy shooting themselves in the d**k (figuratively and literally at times), I can take pretty good stab at which.
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There is no such thing as income inequality. People earn at rates commensurate with their value and the ability of others to do their work. Today in New York City there are crane operators that make $500,000.
Again I will point out public sector employees are endowed with great wealth due to the pension and lifetime health benefits they receive. Further they have tenure , civil service etc which make their jobs permanent. I served on several educational and government boards and we calculate the wealth impact of every teacher we granted tenure to at roughly $3,000,000.
The income inequality crowd conveniently forgets to calculate the massive wealth transfer to the public sector that is going on in this country. It is paid for by the private sector who does not have the same benefits and protections.
Honestly, this is one of the most ignorant and absurd things I have seen posted on here.
Although it is true that taxpayer dollars support the salaries of public sector employees, their sacrifices in both time and income, allow you to focus solely on generating as much wealth as personally profitable.
Without their sacrifices, sometimes their very lives, you wouldn't be able to live any aspect of the life you enjoy. So before criticizing these individuals and saying they take what they are offered for granted, maybe you should look at what services they provide you, and how much your life benefits from their sacrifices. Then determine their worth? Because absurd calculations (like your $3M figure), are not accurate, but are used as an excuse to further take advantage of these people that allow us to live in the way we are accustomed.
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Without their sacrifices, sometimes their very lives, you wouldn't be able to live any aspect of the life you enjoy. eir sacrifices.
Lol. Yes, without public sector workers, my life would be literally nothing. Get real. Public sector is largely an inefficient, poor performer.
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I graduated in 2012 and mine was about 2:1. Fortunate to be in a speciality field with great raises that allowed me to pay down aggressively - just paid off this year. No better feeling. Just in time to introduce Jr and immediately putting that money into a 529.
Congratulations, that is an awesome milestone and feeling.
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Lol. Yes, without public sector workers, my life would be literally nothing. Get real. Public sector is largely an inefficient, poor performer.
....or that my wallet has a never ending flow of cash. The median salary for a school teacher in New Jersey is around 75K and they still cry poverty as they hand my grand daughter a school fund raiser for paper and crayons for her first grade classroom..... and no the teacher should not have to fork that money out of her/his income to provide those supplies. On another note we just buried a teacher and 5th grader because a school bus driver decided to make a UTurn on the interstate. It was later determine that this guy had lost his driving privileges 14 times over the last 30 years. Don't they check that information before the hire?
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....or that my wallet has a never ending flow of cash. The median salary for a school teacher in New Jersey is around 75K and they still cry poverty as they hand my grand daughter a school fund raiser for paper and crayons for her first grade classroom.
1. Actually, you're off on median salary by almost $10K. Do you find a $66K salary for a college-educated professional (often with an advanced degree) in a high cost-of-living state to be outrageous?
http://www.nj.com/education/2017/04/nj_teacher_pay_see_the_median_salary_in_every_dist.html
2. Shouldn't the better question be why your grandkids' school needs to conduct fundraisers for basic supplies?
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1. Actually, you're off on median salary by almost $10K. Do you find a $66K salary for a college-educated professional (often with an advanced degree) in a high cost-of-living state to be outrageous?
http://www.nj.com/education/2017/04/nj_teacher_pay_see_the_median_salary_in_every_dist.html
2. Shouldn't the better question be why your grandkids' school needs to conduct fundraisers for basic supplies?
Something to also focus on is teachers work well over the subscribed hours. Having dated three teachers i know many times they don't get home till 7 or 8PM. And many of the supplies come out of pocket with little to no reimbursement. Finally, parents are doing less and less I. Raising their kids and expecting teachers to do it all, one such lady recieves calls on her personal phone during weekends and nights from parents asking where their kids are, asking why their kid was sent to the office, why their kids are not at school etc.
I used to think that it was the glamorous life but it's definitely not easy for new teachers before they've checked out and stop caring.
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Something to also focus on is teachers work well over the subscribed hours. Having dated three teachers i know many times they don't get home till 7 or 8PM. And many of the supplies come out of pocket with little to no reimbursement. Finally, parents are doing less and less I. Raising their kids and expecting teachers to do it all, one such lady recieves calls on her personal phone during weekends and nights from parents asking where their kids are, asking why their kid was sent to the office, why their kids are not at school etc.
I used to think that it was the glamorous life but it's definitely not easy for new teachers before they've checked out and stop caring.
Some teachers sometimes work late. Some teachers often work late. Some teachers almost never do. There are plusses (180 days off a year) and minuses (dealing with difficult parents). Overall compensation is fair, but the way it is distributed isn't. As long as the unions are running things, young, energetic, dynamic (and underpaid) teachers will come up short (and probably leave) and mediocre to poor teachers will stay for the benefits (higher salaries, generous pensions, security) that come down the road with tenure.
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Some teachers sometimes work late. Some teachers often work late. Some teachers almost never do. There are plusses (180 days off a year) and minuses (dealing with difficult parents). Overall compensation is fair, but the way it is distributed isn't. As long as the unions are running things, young, energetic, dynamic (and underpaid) teachers will come up short (and probably leave) and mediocre to poor teachers will stay for the benefits (higher salaries, generous pensions, security) that come down the road with tenure.
And how do you determine a mediocre poor teacher? I dated a girl who teaches at bayview, works till 8pm most nights, buys food for the children as half don't even have lunch, tutors during lunch etc. her classes still have major behavioral disruptions and issues. At some point it's on the parents and what you're suggesting punishes teachers for that.
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Lol. Yes, without public sector workers, my life would be literally nothing. Get real. Public sector is largely an inefficient, poor performer.
So you want a world with no cops, no firefighters, no teachers, no garbage collectors?
The jobs in the public sector allow the rest of us to worry about pursuing our passions and making money. We don't have to worry about getting robbed, how to get to work, or educating our kids. By having the basics of the common good provided to all, the rest of us are given the freedom to pursue wealth and happiness. In return, they deserve a decent income and secure retirement. Why is this so hard for some people to grasp?
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1. Actually, you're off on median salary by almost $10K. Do you find a $66K salary for a college-educated professional (often with an advanced degree) in a high cost-of-living state to be outrageous?
http://www.nj.com/education/2017/04/nj_teacher_pay_see_the_median_salary_in_every_dist.html
2. Shouldn't the better question be why your grandkids' school needs to conduct fundraisers for basic supplies?
Thank you.
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My wife is an art teacher an routinely spends well over the $250 IRS deduction (which was attempted to be cut in last year's stupid tax bill.). Art supplies are more expensive than the regular class supplies and she usually gets a smaller budget than they do on top it. Heck, she went to work last Saturday because something had be finished.
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Some teachers sometimes work late. Some teachers often work late. Some teachers almost never do. There are plusses (180 days off a year) and minuses (dealing with difficult parents). Overall compensation is fair, but the way it is distributed isn't. As long as the unions are running things, young, energetic, dynamic (and underpaid) teachers will come up short (and probably leave) and mediocre to poor teachers will stay for the benefits (higher salaries, generous pensions, security) that come down the road with tenure.
So many teachers think they have a monopoly on working late or more than their 40 per week. Most professionals work more than 40 hours per week. We just don't expect everyone else to celebrate us for doing so or hold self-pity parties about it.
(FTR, my brother, his wife, and numerous cousins and other relatives are all teachers. I have great deal of respect for those that can teach and are good teachers.)
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And how do you determine a mediocre poor teacher? I dated a girl who teaches at bayview, works till 8pm most nights, buys food for the children as half don't even have lunch, tutors during lunch etc. her classes still have major behavioral disruptions and issues. At some point it's on the parents and what you're suggesting punishes teachers for that.
Bags - I think you misunderstood my point. I'm in 100% agreement that the job of our teachers is made much more difficult by neglectful or difficult parents and clearly state that as a minus (i.e., a difficulty) for people who choose teaching as a profession - but I never blamed the teachers for it.
I judge good, bad or mediocre teachers pretty much like everyone else - I've had enough of each type to recognize them when I see them.
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So many teachers think they have a monopoly on working late or more than their 40 per week. Most professionals work more than 40 hours per week. We just don't expect everyone else to celebrate us for doing so or hold self-pity parties about it.
(FTR, my brother, his wife, and numerous cousins and other relatives are all teachers. I have great deal of respect for those that can teach and are good teachers.)
You're missing the point, teachers don't think they have a monopoly on those hours. It's that their peers (especially early on) that work similar hours are lawyers and in IT making a whole lot more.
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Bags - I think you misunderstood my point. I'm in 100% agreement that the job of our teachers is made much more difficult by neglectful or difficult parents and clearly state that as a minus (i.e., a difficulty) for people who choose teaching as a profession - but I never blamed the teachers for it.
I judge good, bad or mediocre teachers pretty much like everyone else - I've had enough of each type to recognize them when I see them.
I agree it's recognizable, and of course if we had an objective party observe them it'd be easier to figure out who is and who isn't a good teacher but realistically the standard would be set by standardized tests, grades, and a non objective principle/superintendent that would factor in age and length of time they've been there when deciding who gets the good pay and who doesn't.
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As long as the unions are running things, young, energetic, dynamic (and underpaid) teachers will come up short (and probably leave) and mediocre to poor teachers will stay for the benefits (higher salaries, generous pensions, security) that come down the road with tenure.
Just an FYI Lenny, in Wisconsin, the teachers' unions are roughly powerless. School Boards create their own employee handbook and hire and fire as they see fit.
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You're missing the point, teachers don't think they have a monopoly on those hours. It's that their peers (especially early on) that work similar hours are lawyers and in IT making a whole lot more.
I actually see it slightly differently. Teachers are likely representative of every other career out there. Some put in long/extra hours. Some put it as little as possible. From personal experience - to do the job, and do it well, they do likely need to be working >40 hours/week.
The problem is that those trying to belittle teachers tend to paint them as working weekdays 8-3 with summers off. That's not even remotely fair. Neither is the over-exaggeration of saying they all work 60+ hours/week.
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So you want a world with no cops, no firefighters, no teachers, no garbage collectors?
The jobs in the public sector allow the rest of us to worry about pursuing our passions and making money. We don't have to worry about getting robbed, how to get to work, or educating our kids. By having the basics of the common good provided to all, the rest of us are given the freedom to pursue wealth and happiness. In return, they deserve a decent income and secure retirement. Why is this so hard for some people to grasp?
Small nitpick, but garbage collection is vastly cheaper with privatization.
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I actually see it slightly differently. Teachers are likely representative of every other career out there. Some put in long/extra hours. Some put it as little as possible. From personal experience - to do the job, and do it well, they do likely need to be working >40 hours/week.
The problem is that those trying to belittle teachers tend to paint them as working weekdays 8-3 with summers off. That's not even remotely fair. Neither is the over-exaggeration of saying they all work 60+ hours/week.
Agree with paragraph #1.
Re paragraph #2, I don't think many consider them overpaid slackers. Most fall into the fairly compensated or grossly underpaid camps.
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Agree with paragraph #1.
Re paragraph #2, I don't think many consider them overpaid slackers. Most fall into the fairly compensated or grossly underpaid camps.
Correct. Bad wording by me.
Those who believe teachers are paid enough/fairly compensated - portray them as working 8-3 and summers off, justifying their (low) pay.
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So you want a world with no cops, no firefighters, no teachers, no garbage collectors?
The jobs in the public sector allow the rest of us to worry about pursuing our passions and making money. We don't have to worry about getting robbed, how to get to work, or educating our kids. By having the basics of the common good provided to all, the rest of us are given the freedom to pursue wealth and happiness. In return, they deserve a decent income and secure retirement. Why is this so hard for some people to grasp?
You on drugs, bruh? I don’t live in your fantasy world and disagree with nearly everything you typed
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You on drugs, bruh? I don’t live in your fantasy world and disagree with nearly everything you typed
Good argument. Nothing substantive, just "you on drugs?"....nice
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Small nitpick, but garbage collection is vastly cheaper with privatization.
Its a fair nitpick. Some services may be more efficient if privatized. But you will always need some public sector workers too, especially when the profit motive conflicts with the common good.
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Disturbing....
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/05/30/why-the-dentist-with-1-million-in-student-debt-spells-trouble-for-federal-loan-programs/
There’s old, simple and reasonable saying... it goes, “pay your effin bills”
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Disturbing....
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/05/30/why-the-dentist-with-1-million-in-student-debt-spells-trouble-for-federal-loan-programs/
There’s old, simple and reasonable saying... it goes, “pay your effin bills”
Friggin' dentists. When are the bots coming to replace these mouth breathers, aina?
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Disturbing....
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/05/30/why-the-dentist-with-1-million-in-student-debt-spells-trouble-for-federal-loan-programs/
There’s old, simple and reasonable saying... it goes, “pay your effin bills”
Actual question here is which idiots allowed this guy to borrow over $1 million?
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Its a fair nitpick. Some services may be more efficient if privatized. But you will always need some public sector workers too, especially when the profit motive conflicts with the common good.
Does the public sector always operate without this mindset? I may not be a good judge living in the Chicago area...
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Does the public sector always operate without this mindset? I may not be a good judge living in the Chicago area...
I also live in Chicago. To be sure... corruption, graft, patronage, etc. all undermine the common good and are a cancer upon the public sector. They should be eliminated at all cost. But do note that most of this originates with politicians, not public sector workers/civil servants.
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Again I will point out public sector employees are endowed with great wealth due to the pension and lifetime health benefits they receive.
The income inequality crowd conveniently forgets to calculate the massive wealth transfer to the public sector that is going on in this country. It is paid for by the private sector who does not have the same benefits and protections.
Dude, give it a break. We just saw a trillion dollar tax cut for the wealthy. I'm perfectly happy with my compensation, but the problem, the real problem, is way over my head.
The real "problem" with the public sector is that EVERYONE should get what the public sector gets. Everyone should get more affordable healthcare. Everyone should get a guaranteed pension. But instead, corporations jack up healthcare costs while passing the savings to shareholders, and cut pensions in favor of 401k accounts so executives can get million dollar bonuses.