MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: classof70 on March 24, 2008, 03:34:52 PM
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I am on an email group of old MU alum, including some ex-players. The resentment against Crean by many in this group is palpable. Essentially, in my view, the complaints comes down to 1) he's not a good bench coach, especially late in the game; 2) he offended George Thompson; 3) he's not genuine. Of course, I think some of it is he's not McGuire. I tend to agree that he's not the best bench coach, but I think the other two are complaints from the "old" against the "new". Frankly, in my view, weak outside shooting during the year and free throws against Gtown express MU's season. Anyway, Crean cannot make the shots and/or free throws. As an "old" alum, I'm like Crean. But then, maybe I'm not "in the know".
I'd be interested in observations of others.
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I am a somewhat younger alum (class of 2000). I am by no means a Crean apologist, but I think that people who are trying to run him out of town are foolish. There is no chance we can replace him with someone nearly as good. He has his flaws, but all coaches do. Coach K hasn't exactly had the best success the past two years.
I do not think Crean is the greatest Xs & Os coach there is, but he does run a pro-style offense which helps us get good talent. I also think he gets his players to play extremely hard.
I think reasons 2 and 3 are extremely trite. I'm not saying we should all rush-out and offend all-time greats, but it certainly seems a bit lame.
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I'm an alum from 1986 - some of the darkest days of MU basketball, from Majerus sliding into Dukiet. Remember going 10 years and not dancing? Crean has given his all for this institution - don't know who out there could do a better job that would accept the position...
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The biggest misconception about Crean is his recruiting. He has not been able to attract top level talent to MU. Our team is woefully undersized at every position other than point guard. I have much less problem with his coaching than I do with his recruiting. I mean, we're looking at a roster with 8 guards next year! Are you kidding me?
I agree with this "old guard" that he's less than genuine and I think the annual assistant coaching exodus is very indicative of what kind of guy he is.
The George Thompson situation was unfortunate. It's beyond the number thing, too. George was forced out of his radio gig and then the very next year his number was given to Hayward? That was outrageous and seemed curious given Brute Force's dismissal from the radio.
Basically, he's not a very likable guy and I would love it if he accepted another job.
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Basically I could care less how likable he is, what I do care about would be our ability to insert someone of equal ability. Due to the success of the team UNDER CREAN there is a large group of people who believes this program is bigger than it is. We'd have a great deal of trouble finding a replacement capable of keeping the product on the court at the level it is.
Again, I'm not about insulting G. Thompson, but can say that I don't miss hearing him on the radio.
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Basically, he's not a very likable guy and I would love it if he accepted another job.
Who do you want to get to replace him? It seems some people complain a lot without offering any solutions.
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Basically, he's not a very likable guy and I would love it if he accepted another job.
Who do you want to get to replace him? It seems some people complain a lot without offering any solutions.
We've never had a problem attracting coaching candidates...ever. Kevin O'Neill was one of the hottest assistant coaches in the country when he took over. Deane was something of a hot commodity. Heck, even Bob Dukiet was one of the most highly regarded coaches in the country.
We'd be fine if Crean left.
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GT was "forced" out of his radio gig because he was a terrible commentator. I mean awful. On the level of Ron Santo on Cubs radio broadcasts. Damn near un-listen-able.
And unlikable according to whom? PRN? A handful of McGuire-era alumni?
I first posted the story after our game in South Bend last month, when TC stopped to talk to my brother and his friends (MU '02/'03 alums) in the team's hotel after the game. My brother in particular really disliked Crean when he was hired, but after meeting him his opinion changed.
Some of you may not like the guy. Fine. But to run him out of town for that reason is asinine. Foolish. Idiotic. Any other synonym you can list.
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I am on an email group of old MU alum, including some ex-players. The resentment against Crean by many in this group is palpable. Essentially, in my view, the complaints comes down to 1) he's not a good bench coach, especially late in the game; 2) he offended George Thompson; 3) he's not genuine. Of course, I think some of it is he's not McGuire. I tend to agree that he's not the best bench coach, but I think the other two are complaints from the "old" against the "new". Frankly, in my view, weak outside shooting during the year and free throws against Gtown express MU's season. Anyway, Crean cannot make the shots and/or free throws. As an "old" alum, I'm like Crean. But then, maybe I'm not "in the know".
I'd be interested in observations of others.
My first thought is....there will never be another Al McGuire. He was a once in a lifetime....the sooner people realize how lucky the Marquette and college basketball community was to have him the better...and I think most people do realize it.
When I hear criticism of Crean, my first response is always..."ok, who is your choice then...who would you rather have?" Inevitably, the list contains names of high mid-major coaches that have won some NCAA tournament games...Sean Miller is the recent flavor of the month. There is not an MU fan anywhere that would not have wanted MU to have more NCAA success than we've had since our Final Four but, contrary to some, building a program is about more than that...believe it or not.
Just last week the graduation rates came out showing MU as one of the top programs in the tournament to graduate its players. The kids we have on this team have always represented the MU community extremely well on and off the court. How many arrests or incidents have there been with MU players since Crean has been here? (Saunders never got to campus). We have been to the Final Four in the last 5 years, now play in the Big East and built a $31M practice facility. Watching the NIT game Florida hosted in the first round last week they were bragging about Florida's $12M facility....
We will most likely finish in the top 15 in national attendance this year....again.
By no means am I saying that Crean is directly responsible for all of this but those who think he has little-to-nothing to do with it is ignorant.
People need only to think of where this program was 9 years ago....it's been an absolutely remarkable turnaround.
He may not be the best bench or x's and o's coach in the country....so, who is? Who cares? We have a great coach and the state MU basketball is strong....the program is in great hands.
BTW, since MU has joined the Big East there have been three or four teams with more conference wins than MU...not bad is it? Oh yeah....and, if I recall correctly, we just won a game in the NCAA tournament 4 days ago and lost by 1 in overtime to the 8th ranked team in the country in the second round or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I don't recall what Crean did to George Thompson? If it was getting him off of MU radio then I'm in full support, he was awful to listen to...if it was something else then I don't remember. All I know is that they had a George Thompson night at the BC a couple seasons ago from which I still have the t-shirt.
As far as him not being genuine....that's one person's opinion versus another. He has done nothing but embrace the history and heritage of the MU basketball program and tried to build off that tradition. Anyone notice the "Al" on the jersey, the name of the court we play on or the name of that $31M practice facility? Anyone notice who is the Grand Marshall (or whatever it's called) for Al's run? Of course, some will say, "oh, there's that self-promoting Crean again." Give me a break. I'm not sure what the previous players or "older" alums are looking for? Were they happy with Mike Deane or Kevin O'Neill's profanity-laced tirades?
I'll gladly take my "chances" with a coach like Tom Crean who will continue to get better as a young coach that has already put us back on the national map than some flavor-of-the-month, mid-major coach that has won a game (or two) in the last couple NCAA's.
Whew, I feel better now...thanks.
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I am Marquette...fantastic post and very reflective of the voice of people under the age of 35.
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The biggest misconception about Crean is his recruiting. He has not been able to attract top level talent to MU.
Lessee ... MU is one of I believe only four Big East schools to get double-digit conference wins three years running, yet he's not attracting top-level talent?
Pray tell, PRN, how exactly do you define top-level talent?
I tend to believe if you're winning, and winning a lot, you've got talent.
I agree with this "old guard" that he's less than genuine and I think the annual assistant coaching exodus is very indicative of what kind of guy he is.
Sure ... Buckley, Horn, Kowalczyk, they didn't really want those head-coaching gigs. They just wanted out of Marquette and where fortunate enough those jobs opened up for them as they were leaving.
And the fact Buckley returned to work for Tyrant Tom? Obviously an act of mere desperation by a man who had no other options.
Sheesh. Do you ever run your stuff through a logic detector?
Really, when exactly did Tom Crean pee in your coffee? You obviously have some kind of intense personal grudge against the guy and I'd love to know exactly how he slighted you.
As for George Thompson ... as noted above, he was just plain awful. The fact he lasted in that gig as long as he did is a tribute to the loyalty of Marquette to its former players.
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The biggest misconception about Crean is his recruiting. He has not been able to attract top level talent to MU.
Lessee ... MU is one of I believe only four Big East schools to get double-digit conference wins three years running, yet he's not attracting top-level talent?
Pray tell, PRN, how exactly do you define top-level talent?
I tend to believe if you're winning, and winning a lot, you've got talent.
I agree with this "old guard" that he's less than genuine and I think the annual assistant coaching exodus is very indicative of what kind of guy he is.
Sure ... Buckley, Horn, Kowalczyk, they didn't really want those head-coaching gigs. They just wanted out of Marquette and where fortunate enough those jobs opened up for them as they were leaving.
And the fact Buckley returned to work for Tyrant Tom? Obviously an act of mere desperation by a man who had no other options.
Sheesh. Do you ever run your stuff through a logic detector?
Really, when exactly did Tom Crean pee in your coffee? You obviously have some kind of intense personal grudge against the guy and I'd love to know exactly how he slighted you.
As for George Thompson ... as noted above, he was just plain awful. The fact he lasted in that gig as long as he did is a tribute to the loyalty of Marquette to its former players.
Pakuni, this post is dead on, and shows that you can slice any situation to fit an agenda.
Some people aren't into Crean, and they will always look for a reason to justify their dislike. (PRN)
Honestly, I'm not a Crean lover... but when I look at the state of the program now, compared to when he took it over... it's light years ahead. I don't think he deserves all of the credit... but he certainly has been a big part of the MU basketball renaissance.
Also, as far as Dukiet, Oneil, and Deane being "hot" coaches when MU hired them... if that is really true, then you can keep your "hot" coaches and I'll stick with our current general. He has surppased all of them 10x over.
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I'm so sick of this discussion. Crean leaving would be THE WORST thing that could happen to this program right now. Next topic please.
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I am on an email group of old MU alum, including some ex-players. The resentment against Crean by many in this group is palpable.
Heh, if it's the same e-mail group I was on for a while (and I'm guessing it is), well I can say this: I respect the contributions the former players made to MU, and I respect the passion of the "old" fans. However, without ever meeting any of them or Crean, I would easily say Tom Crean is the most likable of the bunch.
After a few e-mails of unnecessary Crean bashing I had to reply and stick up for Crean a bit (I don't think I'm an apologist), and respectfully ask to be removed from the list.
With all that Crean *HAS* done at Marquette, I can't believe the number of people that seem to only be able to focus on what he *HAS NOT*done. Seriously, there's a lot more to be happy about than there is to complain about.
We've never had a problem attracting coaching candidates...ever. Kevin O'Neill was one of the hottest assistant coaches in the country when he took over. Deane was something of a hot commodity. Heck, even Bob Dukiet was one of the most highly regarded coaches in the country.
We'd be fine if Crean left.
Uhh...see that's exactly what you seem to ignore. We may be able to attract a large number of "highly regarded" coaches. But looking at the history of the "highly regarded" coaches we did hire, how many did better than Crean? I'd say none. How can you be so confident the next one will be as good or better with that kind of track record?
Finding the right coach is much more difficult than finding a highly regarded coach.
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Current Vote:
For - 10 posters
Against - PRN
I think 10 to 1 is about the ratio I would have expected.
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GT was "forced" out of his radio gig because he was a terrible commentator. I mean awful. On the level of Ron Santo on Cubs radio broadcasts. Damn near un-listen-able.
Lets keep Ron Santo out of this, he is the man...so is TC
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I guess I'm from the "older" set of alums on this board (it saddens me to admit that I'll be turning the big 5-0 in a few months), and I side strongly with the pro-Crean camp. This has all been hashed out before, but it's a much different game now than it was when Al was coaching. I think Al recognized that fact and got out before it ate him up.
PRN talks about recruiting as his major beef with Crean, but it certainly is much, much more difficult to bring a guy into Milwaukee now than it was when the area south of the Mason-Dixon line wasn't really interested in the "city" players. Al gave kids a chance that they no longer need.
Crean's work ethic is undeniably strong. His players respect him. He, along with Cords, has brought success to a program that could easily have fallen off the college basketball map. I think we are fortunate to have him.
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Basically, he's not a very likable guy and I would love it if he accepted another job.
Who do you want to get to replace him? It seems some people complain a lot without offering any solutions.
We've never had a problem attracting coaching candidates...ever. Kevin O'Neill was one of the hottest assistant coaches in the country when he took over. Deane was something of a hot commodity. Heck, even Bob Dukiet was one of the most highly regarded coaches in the country.
We'd be fine if Crean left.
And yet you still don't give options.
Picking an assistant to do well at this level is very, very hard. Look at the guys that came from Izzo. With the exception of Joplin, they've all been tagged as "great hires" who will "win very big" someday. Out of them all, Crean seems to be the only one who's been able to blend tenure and success.
Even before this weekend, I've always felt Darrin Horn should be the first call if Crean were to leave. They have matching styles, Horn knows the MU program, he played big time basketball, can really recruit the kids, and I think he has some Xs and Os knowledge that people hold against Crean.
What are some realistic options people think Marquette can land (not flirt with) as their next head coach?
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If TC leaves, my first call is to Tony Bennett. Mark Turgeon & Kevin Stallings would be on my list. I'd even call Bruce Pearl.
I don't think people realize how much of a good thing TC has here at MU. The basketball coach is god except with more power and better pay.
When you add up practice facilities, salary, low maintenance AD, recruiting budget, budget for assistants and support staff, you'll find that this is a pretty good job. It's 10 times the job it was when Crean took it in 1999. Thanks in large part to him. And the best part is no expectations, you can go 5 years in between tourney wins and get relatively little heat. :D
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All good posts. I am happy with Crean. I can honestly say that we have one of the hardest working teams in the country. The players efforts are all Crean's doing. He recruits those kind of players and he builds them to be even more hard-nosed. In all honesty, we lost a heartbreaker. A game we should have won, when (in all honesty) we were really out matched with the Lopez twins. The only thing I would take back from the game is the last shot in regulation because there was enough time on the clock than to just jack a three. But oh well.
Crean does have his faults. I think the Big Man recruit is pathetic. I understand that there are limited big men out there but kids are not dumb. At least they should not be if they are educated, by Crean, properly. If any good/decent big man pays attention to the basketball stage, they could tell that they could make a HUGE impact at Marquette. If I were Crean, I would say, "Look, we look like a guard school but we need a big guy to make that next step. To be a national champion. Look at the guard play, and look at our big guys. Imagine you were that big guy next year. You could be turning those weak lay-ups into Top 10 SC highlight reel dunks. You could be the reason our program becomes a national champion contender." ... END OF STORY. How could a kid not listen? If he actually watches basketball, we would know everything within the quotes to be true. Marquette is one big man away from national championship DISCUSSION.
Next season is a big test for Crean. Can he develop a program? Is he going to have to rebuild or can he just reload? Can we see some legit "passing of the torch" in most positions next year? I know we have a 6'10 kid coming in but he is apparently rough edged. Can Crean develop Burke? A big forward that most times looks silly on the offensive end, especially for his size.
I sit on the boat of "He is not the best, but he is good. And if he is so bad, who should replace him?" The next couple of years are critical. This is the TRUE end of the Dwayne Wade era. James, McNeal, Matthews are all four star recruits that came to MU because of Wade... because we made it to the Final Four. Once these players leave, what now? Crean has to figure that out because there is seems to be no plan. We have no four star recruits coming in and this year's freshmen probably played for a combined 5 minutes per game.
So we have to hope for a good future at this point. I pray Crean can focus on inproving Burke and Mbawke so that they become solid players. And next year, Christoperson can get some meaningful minutes and we can see how good of a shooter he really is. Lord knows MU needs a solid jump shooter. I know it sound scary, but next year is important is finding out how Crean will move past the TRUE end of the Wade era.
Peace out.
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If TC leaves, my first call is to Tony Bennett. Mark Turgeon & Kevin Stallings would be on my list. I'd even call Bruce Pearl.
I don't think people realize how much of a good thing TC has here at MU. The basketball coach is god except with more power and better pay.
When you add up practice facilities, salary, low maintenance AD, recruiting budget, budget for assistants and support staff, you'll find that this is a pretty good job. It's 10 times the job it was when Crean took it in 1999. Thanks in large part to him. And the best part is no expectations, you can go 5 years in between tourney wins and get relatively little heat. :D
Therefore, he has earned the right to keep building the program in a steady fashion instead of the "win now or get out" attitude that so many universities and/or alumni seem to have.
FIXED YOUR POST.
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If TC leaves, my first call is to Tony Bennett. Mark Turgeon & Kevin Stallings would be on my list. I'd even call Bruce Pearl.
I don't think people realize how much of a good thing TC has here at MU. The basketball coach is god except with more power and better pay.
When you add up practice facilities, salary, low maintenance AD, recruiting budget, budget for assistants and support staff, you'll find that this is a pretty good job. It's 10 times the job it was when Crean took it in 1999. Thanks in large part to him. And the best part is no expectations, you can go 5 years in between tourney wins and get relatively little heat. :D
Therefore, he has earned the right to keep building the program in a steady fashion instead of the "win now or get out" attitude that so many universities and/or alumni seem to have.
FIXED YOUR POST.
The post was in response to if TC left not if he was run off.
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Bring back the bumble-bee uniforms, who cares about their legality. The older alumni will be happy, the recent alumni can't complain about the new uniform's fonts and the recruits will come.
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Not only has TC done, and is doing, what no one else could, he's twice as good at what he does than we are at what we do. He's a motivator, he's a winner, and he's chosen to pour himself into this program, and we should be grateful. It's not just the wins, but it's the way they play and the way our guys handle themselves. I'm proud of these guys, and because of TC, what one might hope to get back from an alma mater we're getting in spades.
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I'm sure those hot candidates like Mike Deane and Bob Dukiet would love to be offered the MU job again. They are coaching in some Jr. High now they were soooooo hot. Crean is the best thing for MU.
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Not only has TC done, and is doing, what no one else could, he's twice as good at what he does than we are at what we do. He's a motivator, he's a winner, and he's chosen to pour himself into this program, and we should be grateful. It's not just the wins, but it's the way they play and the way our guys handle themselves. I'm proud of these guys, and because of TC, what one might hope to get back from an alma mater we're getting in spades.
I agree to an extent. I just think and I know a lot of others who feel this way, that he leaves a lot on the table. Double Digits conf wins but rarely any conf tourney runs, 8 post season tourneys but only 3 times did he get out of the 1st round and except for @Xavier in the 2000 NIT, he was always favored in the 1st round. I guess if you were looking for a pro comparison, Marty Schottenhiemer would be it.
For the past 5 years since the FF we've had big wins in Nov & Dec and glowing articles written about us by Bilas, Katz, Davis et al and to date the best finish is a 2nd round loss. The end of the season never seems to live up to the hype of the early season.
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Santo blows, Cubs blow, George Thompson blows, Crean is the man. Stop living in the past.
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I am on an email group of old MU alum, including some ex-players. The resentment against Crean by many in this group is palpable. Essentially, in my view, the complaints comes down to 1) he's not a good bench coach, especially late in the game; 2) he offended George Thompson; 3) he's not genuine. Of course, I think some of it is he's not McGuire. I tend to agree that he's not the best bench coach, but I think the other two are complaints from the "old" against the "new". Frankly, in my view, weak outside shooting during the year and free throws against Gtown express MU's season. Anyway, Crean cannot make the shots and/or free throws. As an "old" alum, I'm like Crean. But then, maybe I'm not "in the know".
I'd be interested in observations of others.
I've had the "pleasure" of working with some of these older alums at times and I find them an interesting breed. This is the same group that ran Majerus out of town, the same group that pissed off O'Neill, the same group that pissed off Deane and the same group that craps on Crean. The same group that whined about the Blue and Gold fund until the cows came home and didn't want to accept the fact that times had changed, that the M Club had to go, that they had to pay for tickets, etc. While these guys are still in 1977, the world kept spinning and moving forward but many of these guys didn't.
It's funny, but having grown up in So. Cal I saw the same thing with the Wooden folks. It's just as bad now, if Howland doesn't get to the Final Four they will hang the guy. Same thing cross town with Pete Carrol. The guy has won like 90% of his games and grabbed two national titles in the last 5 years and fans are second guessing constantly. Always someone pissed off somewhere whether it's the linebacker from 1976 who wasn't given the love or seats he "deserved" or someone else saying they would have run the halfback option instead of the sweep, etc. It's one thing if the alums are crying to get rid of Paul Hackett or Bob Dukiet....but my God, you would think we had just missed our 3rd consecutive NCAA tournament by the remarks of some.
Some people never move on. You would think after we totally tanked for basically 30 years that fans would be happy now, but as others would point out "we can do better". Yeah, we "could" or we "could" do a lot worse. Since we're in a better cycle now then we have been in since 1980, I find it odd to change course or even think about it. I discussed this with Bill Cords the other day, who of course had to deal with these types for 20+ years. To be fair to Bill, he didn't say a negative thing at all about this topic in particular or about the challenges of alumni, but we were talking just in generalities about the DO IT NOW OR ELSE society we live in. How difficult it is to build a program and keep people happy in today's age. How things have changed so much over the years and how some folks are never happy. NC State comes to mind and Arizona State has benefited as a result. I sometimes wonder if Crean would have been better off in a sense to go to the Sweet 16 that fourth year then the Final Four, as bad as that sounds. The expectation it set has made it impossible for some to come to grips.
It takes longer at a school like MU in the butt cold, small school, difficult school, private, etc. This is the best shape this program has been in since McGuire left, and that includes Hank Raymonds but some folks, especially the bluehairs, think it's 1977 still. They don't realize the role of television today, the reduction in scholarships, Title IX, 345 DI schools vs 240, the NBA player jumping, etc.
But hey, it sounds like the Old Alums know what they're talking about, afterall they've managed to drive away other coaches and make life miserable for the ones that stayed. Go figure. I'd laugh if Crean or some future coach left and ended up taking another school to the Final Four or better while MU falls into obscurity like we were for much of the previous 30 years.
Careful what you wish for. Of course this also begs the question if someone like Indiana or whomever did hire Crean away, exactly who are the experts then....older alums that apparently know how it's done and can do it better or one of the powerhouses in NCAA history hiring a guy that these alums reject? Kind of funny in a way.
I honestly believe this has more to do with the fact that Wisconsin has finally put together a good program then anything else. Some of these folks feel the sting of that and they can't tolerate it or bear it. I suppose if I still lived there it would bother me, just like it freaks UCLA and USC people here out when the other one steps into their "domain". These are good people, good alums, they mean well but move on already.
Risks are great but calculated risks are the name of the game. Have people done the calculation? Can they live with it if the calculation goes bad?
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I am on an email group of old MU alum, including some ex-players. The resentment against Crean by many in this group is palpable. Essentially, in my view, the complaints comes down to 1) he's not a good bench coach, especially late in the game; 2) he offended George Thompson; 3) he's not genuine. Of course, I think some of it is he's not McGuire. I tend to agree that he's not the best bench coach, but I think the other two are complaints from the "old" against the "new". Frankly, in my view, weak outside shooting during the year and free throws against Gtown express MU's season. Anyway, Crean cannot make the shots and/or free throws. As an "old" alum, I'm like Crean. But then, maybe I'm not "in the know".
I'd be interested in observations of others.
My first thought is....there will never be another Al McGuire. He was a once in a lifetime....the sooner people realize how lucky the Marquette and college basketball community was to have him the better...and I think most people do realize it.
When I hear criticism of Crean, my first response is always..."ok, who is your choice then...who would you rather have?" Inevitably, the list contains names of high mid-major coaches that have won some NCAA tournament games...Sean Miller is the recent flavor of the month. There is not an MU fan anywhere that would not have wanted MU to have more NCAA success than we've had since our Final Four but, contrary to some, building a program is about more than that...believe it or not.
Just last week the graduation rates came out showing MU as one of the top programs in the tournament to graduate its players. The kids we have on this team have always represented the MU community extremely well on and off the court. How many arrests or incidents have there been with MU players since Crean has been here? (Saunders never got to campus). We have been to the Final Four in the last 5 years, now play in the Big East and built a $31M practice facility. Watching the NIT game Florida hosted in the first round last week they were bragging about Florida's $12M facility....
We will most likely finish in the top 15 in national attendance this year....again.
By no means am I saying that Crean is directly responsible for all of this but those who think he has little-to-nothing to do with it is ignorant.
People need only to think of where this program was 9 years ago....it's been an absolutely remarkable turnaround.
He may not be the best bench or x's and o's coach in the country....so, who is? Who cares? We have a great coach and the state MU basketball is strong....the program is in great hands.
BTW, since MU has joined the Big East there have been three or four teams with more conference wins than MU...not bad is it? Oh yeah....and, if I recall correctly, we just won a game in the NCAA tournament 4 days ago and lost by 1 in overtime to the 8th ranked team in the country in the second round or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I don't recall what Crean did to George Thompson? If it was getting him off of MU radio then I'm in full support, he was awful to listen to...if it was something else then I don't remember. All I know is that they had a George Thompson night at the BC a couple seasons ago from which I still have the t-shirt.
As far as him not being genuine....that's one person's opinion versus another. He has done nothing but embrace the history and heritage of the MU basketball program and tried to build off that tradition. Anyone notice the "Al" on the jersey, the name of the court we play on or the name of that $31M practice facility? Anyone notice who is the Grand Marshall (or whatever it's called) for Al's run? Of course, some will say, "oh, there's that self-promoting Crean again." Give me a break. I'm not sure what the previous players or "older" alums are looking for? Were they happy with Mike Deane or Kevin O'Neill's profanity-laced tirades?
I'll gladly take my "chances" with a coach like Tom Crean who will continue to get better as a young coach that has already put us back on the national map than some flavor-of-the-month, mid-major coach that has won a game (or two) in the last couple NCAA's.
Whew, I feel better now...thanks.
I think this is a great post and I agree with everything that was stated here - I would just like to add two comments:
1. I love how he and Joanie gave big money (sorry I can't remember the exact amount off the top of my head) to the MU Men's Soccer program.
2. TC's name is mentioned every time a big-time basketball program is looking for a new coach. That says something in itself............
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"I agree to an extent. I just think and I know a lot of others who feel this way, that he leaves a lot on the table. Double Digits conf wins but rarely any conf tourney runs, 8 post season tourneys but only 3 times did he get out of the 1st round and except for @Xavier in the 2000 NIT, he was always favored in the 1st round. I guess if you were looking for a pro comparison, Marty Schottenhiemer would be it.
For the past 5 years since the FF we've had big wins in Nov & Dec and glowing articles written about us by Bilas, Katz, Davis et al and to date the best finish is a 2nd round loss. The end of the season never seems to live up to the hype of the early season."
How has Jim B. done at Syracuse in that same time frame or Gary Williams at Maryland since his National Championship? I'm sure there are countless others I am forgeting. The point is, it is freakin hard to win in March consistently and only a few elite programs and coaches seem to do it consistently.
It wasn't too long ago that we had a coach in Mike Deane who told us that going to the tournament every year was too lofty a goal.
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Basically, he's not a very likable guy and I would love it if he accepted another job.
Who do you want to get to replace him? It seems some people complain a lot without offering any solutions.
We've never had a problem attracting coaching candidates...ever. Kevin O'Neill was one of the hottest assistant coaches in the country when he took over. Deane was something of a hot commodity. Heck, even Bob Dukiet was one of the most highly regarded coaches in the country.
We'd be fine if Crean left.
That is utterly laughable. I saw the resumes of the candidates you talk of and the quality of candidates was abysmal at times.
Look at who our options were after Hank Raymonds...and you're telling me "ever". Give me break. The head coach at Texas San Antonio? Or the guy at Arkansas Little Rock...that was our stellar talent pool? After Dukiet, the list was also not good with us getting lucky to get a top assistant from a great program, but it wasn't like any veteran coaches wanted to come to MU. After O'Neill, we jumped on an airplane to hire away Mike Deane from Dayton at the last second....I love Mike, but that's what you would call having a bunch of great candidates at our doorstep that we felt the need to compete with DAYTON....F'ing DAYTON!!!
Come on PRN. Some of the candidates were folks like Dick Versace for crying out loud.
We're beyond the days of hiring top assistants now and if we were to run out a guy like Crean, I doubt seriously a lot of qualified head coaches would say "wow, guy makes 3 straight NCAAs and they can't wait for him to leave....SIGN ME UP....he wins the 3rd most games in the Big East over three years and he's deemed a poor coach and recruiter....SIGN ME UP FOR THAT"
Think about it. As for recruiting, again....if our recruiting is so bad, then he must be a HELLUVA good coach because we sure do win a lot of games for having such inferior talent...how else can one explain it? Or is it just luck? Our recruiting needs to get better at the bigs position, no question. But that's a position that is in short supply.
On ESPN Radio this morning Katz and Gottlieb made a great comment. Duke has had 4 interior players transfer out in the last 5 years...ALL OF THEM McDonald's All Americans....ALL OF THEM not even starting at their new school. Their point was that even Duke misses on bigs and obviously because someone is named a McDonald's All American doesn't mean squat either. One needs to find the true gems because the can't miss guys aren't going to a MU and where they do go, they go for one year only before jumping to the NBA.
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"The biggest misconception about Crean is his recruiting. He has not been able to attract top level talent to MU. Our team is woefully undersized at every position other than point guard."
If Crean is not really a good recruiter then he is not a good coach...he is a great coach. If Crean can finish in the top 1/3 of the best conference in college basketball, get to a final four, and make the NCAAs 3 years in a row all without top talent, then we should want him around forever. Imagine what he could do with top talent.
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Basically, he's not a very likable guy and I would love it if he accepted another job.
Who do you want to get to replace him? It seems some people complain a lot without offering any solutions.
We've never had a problem attracting coaching candidates...ever. Kevin O'Neill was one of the hottest assistant coaches in the country when he took over. Deane was something of a hot commodity. Heck, even Bob Dukiet was one of the most highly regarded coaches in the country.
We'd be fine if Crean left.
I take this to be a joke ;D - can't imagine anyone wanting to see the program hire Dukiet II or Deane II. If Crean left, they'd end up hiring an Assistant at a top program looking for his first head gig, or a head coach from a lower level program looking to move up.
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Reading this thread is quite humbling. After seeing coaching debacles at Kentucky, N.C. State, et al I really thought we had a realistic community compared to those. I now wonder if we are closer to them than I realized.
The guy has won, graduates players, no major scandals. Yet people are saying they wouldn't mind to see him go? Wow. If he has a couple of losing seasons, I am coming nowhere near this board. It would be ugly. It is clear that there will be a large minority of people that will run him out of town just like those previous schools I mentioned.
I really thought we were more sane as a fanbase. I guess not.
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Here we go again with perception versus reality. One, two, three opinions does not make a majority. Whenever someone voices their displeasure, disappointment or even hate, there are others that come on here and attribute those sentiments to the entire fanbase. Generalizations burn both ways. By all means, address the dissenting party or parties, but let's not hang the entire fan base, or the "older" alums, or this board, or those students.
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Reading this thread is quite humbling. After seeing coaching debacles at Kentucky, N.C. State, et al I really thought we had a realistic community compared to those. I now wonder if we are closer to them than I realized.
The guy has won, graduates players, no major scandals. Yet people are saying they wouldn't mind to see him go? Wow. If he has a couple of losing seasons, I am coming nowhere near this board. It would be ugly. It is clear that there will be a large minority of people that will run him out of town just like those previous schools I mentioned.
I really thought we were more sane as a fanbase. I guess not.
Again, when I say I wouldn't be upset if he left, I'm not advocating dismissing him by any means. That's insanity! But if took another job it wouldn't bother me at all.
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Reading this thread is quite humbling. After seeing coaching debacles at Kentucky, N.C. State, et al I really thought we had a realistic community compared to those. I now wonder if we are closer to them than I realized.
The guy has won, graduates players, no major scandals. Yet people are saying they wouldn't mind to see him go? Wow. If he has a couple of losing seasons, I am coming nowhere near this board. It would be ugly. It is clear that there will be a large minority of people that will run him out of town just like those previous schools I mentioned.
I really thought we were more sane as a fanbase. I guess not.
Again, when I say I wouldn't be upset if he left, I'm not advocating dismissing him by any means. That's insanity! But if took another job it wouldn't bother me at all.
Amen. And why do people always think we'd hire Deane II or Dukiet II, why couldn't we just hire KO II or TC II?
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After every single year, I am more proud to be an MU fan and more proud that Crean is our coach. I support him 100%.
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Reading this thread is quite humbling. After seeing coaching debacles at Kentucky, N.C. State, et al I really thought we had a realistic community compared to those. I now wonder if we are closer to them than I realized.
The guy has won, graduates players, no major scandals. Yet people are saying they wouldn't mind to see him go? Wow. If he has a couple of losing seasons, I am coming nowhere near this board. It would be ugly. It is clear that there will be a large minority of people that will run him out of town just like those previous schools I mentioned.
I really thought we were more sane as a fanbase. I guess not.
Again, when I say I wouldn't be upset if he left, I'm not advocating dismissing him by any means. That's insanity! But if took another job it wouldn't bother me at all.
Amen. And why do people always think we'd hire Deane II or Dukiet II, why couldn't we just hire KO II or TC II?
It sounds so easy to do doesn't it?
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Reading this thread is quite humbling. After seeing coaching debacles at Kentucky, N.C. State, et al I really thought we had a realistic community compared to those. I now wonder if we are closer to them than I realized.
The guy has won, graduates players, no major scandals. Yet people are saying they wouldn't mind to see him go? Wow. If he has a couple of losing seasons, I am coming nowhere near this board. It would be ugly. It is clear that there will be a large minority of people that will run him out of town just like those previous schools I mentioned.
I really thought we were more sane as a fanbase. I guess not.
You should have read some of the 90+ comments on Cracked Sidewalks board after the loss, some real gems from some folks. Some were deleted, I'm sure some were Badger fans, but there is an interesting element out there as well. Goes with the territory. Everyone wants to get better, everyone wants to be a champion, everyone gets that. It's like the person that wants to look better and has minor plastic surgery and then another surgery and then another surgery and pretty soon they look like hell. I've seen it at the work level also. Some hotshot VP comes in, decides he/she needs to "make their mark" so they lay off half the staff of their department as a way of saying "I'm in charge" and then hires a bunch of new hotshots. Then 2 years later they realize the new hotshots didn't know crap and the folks they got rid of actually did the work and had all the institutional learnings. Amazing.
Good luck to Crean or whomever the coach is longterm, especially dealing with some alums attached to a great guy, a legendary coach, but a man that is gone and hasn't coached since the Apple II was created. Times have changed and if they haven't looked in awhile, we're a top 25 team year in and year out at a small school with a small athletic budget playing in pro city with an 800lb gorilla athletic program 90 miles west. They might want to take a look at how good things are.
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Reading this thread is quite humbling. After seeing coaching debacles at Kentucky, N.C. State, et al I really thought we had a realistic community compared to those. I now wonder if we are closer to them than I realized.
The guy has won, graduates players, no major scandals. Yet people are saying they wouldn't mind to see him go? Wow. If he has a couple of losing seasons, I am coming nowhere near this board. It would be ugly. It is clear that there will be a large minority of people that will run him out of town just like those previous schools I mentioned.
I really thought we were more sane as a fanbase. I guess not.
Again, when I say I wouldn't be upset if he left, I'm not advocating dismissing him by any means. That's insanity! But if took another job it wouldn't bother me at all.
Amen. And why do people always think we'd hire Deane II or Dukiet II, why couldn't we just hire KO II or TC II?
Because there are alot more Deanes and Dukiets out there than KOs and TCs. By the way KO II would be a step down from TC by any measure you want to use. In fact, any coach since Al is a step below Crean. Why not just keep Crean I around instead of hoping for Crean II.
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Since I started this thread, I'd like to make a couple observations. First, I'm glad to see the Crean support. Second, the alums to whom I refer generally are pre-1977. Really old alums. :( Finally, there were some really thoughtful posts on this thread, something I wish we had more often. There was simply less "yelling" and name calling; some real thought put into the posts. I think it is reflective of how most people, after the emotion of a tough loss is set aside, like where the MU program is going and where Crean is taking it. Thanks.
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Here we go again with perception versus reality. One, two, three opinions does not make a majority. Whenever someone voices their displeasure, disappointment or even hate, there are others that come on here and attribute those sentiments to the entire fanbase. Generalizations burn both ways. By all means, address the dissenting party or parties, but let's not hang the entire fan base, or the "older" alums, or this board, or those students.
No, that can't be right. Anyone who questions the manner in which the program runs or the season goes is a "hater."
We're beyond the days of hiring top assistants now and if we were to run out a guy like Crean, I doubt seriously a lot of qualified head coaches would say "wow, guy makes 3 straight NCAAs and they can't wait for him to leave....SIGN ME UP....he wins the 3rd most games in the Big East over three years and he's deemed a poor coach and recruiter....SIGN ME UP FOR THAT"
I wonder how it looks to outside people when the University, for its Athletic Director position, urinates on 60 candidates for the job, the entire University community in its dishonesty, and most importantly, the Deputy Athletic Director who himself was an applicant for the job. (And no, I don't blame Crean for that mess given that it's the way Wild chooses to run the entire University).
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"I wonder how it looks to outside people when the University, for its Athletic Director position, urinates on 60 candidates for the job, the entire University community in its dishonesty, and most importantly, the Deputy Athletic Director who himself was an applicant for the job. (And no, I don't blame Crean for that mess given that it's the way Wild chooses to run the entire University)."
If this looks so bad to people outside the university, then we will never be able to hire a coach as good as Crean. I'm sure nobody would want to come to MU under the Wild regime, so we better hang on to TC.
Did they stop teaching logic at MU?
BTW it is clear by your name that you are still bitter with the administration on the nickname issue, so clearly you are being very objective now.
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Reading this thread is quite humbling. After seeing coaching debacles at Kentucky, N.C. State, et al I really thought we had a realistic community compared to those. I now wonder if we are closer to them than I realized.
The guy has won, graduates players, no major scandals. Yet people are saying they wouldn't mind to see him go? Wow. If he has a couple of losing seasons, I am coming nowhere near this board. It would be ugly. It is clear that there will be a large minority of people that will run him out of town just like those previous schools I mentioned.
I really thought we were more sane as a fanbase. I guess not.
Again, when I say I wouldn't be upset if he left, I'm not advocating dismissing him by any means. That's insanity! But if took another job it wouldn't bother me at all.
Amen. And why do people always think we'd hire Deane II or Dukiet II, why couldn't we just hire KO II or TC II?
If we hired TCII then PRN wouldn't like him. ;)
So Cal, point taken on the fan base and painting with a broadbrush. I guess I'm too close to it and had to hear to much of it point blank over the years so it burned an indelible mark. Coming from a personal experience of going to MU from 1987-1992, well let's just say when I hear people bitching about only making it to the second round of the NCAAs it falls on deaf ears for me.
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"I wonder how it looks to outside people when the University, for its Athletic Director position, urinates on 60 candidates for the job, the entire University community in its dishonesty, and most importantly, the Deputy Athletic Director who himself was an applicant for the job. (And no, I don't blame Crean for that mess given that it's the way Wild chooses to run the entire University)."
If this looks so bad to people outside the university, then we will never be able to hire a coach as good as Crean. I'm sure nobody would want to come to MU under the Wild regime, so we better hang on to TC.
Did they stop teaching logic at MU?
BTW it is clear by your name that you are still bitter with the administration on the nickname issue, so clearly you are being very objective now.
Wow, ok I know I put this in the exact post that you've just posted, but I don't blame Crean for that mess. I also was not making a commentary on the competency of a new coach hire if Crean left ... I think we have Cords to thank for Crean, not Wild.
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In the past 7 seasons with his recruited talent, TC has a 70.2% winning percentage. Nuff said...
But I will say more. In the top on graduation rates while consistently ranked on the floor. The team's graduation rate and athletic performance rankings are considerably higher than the rest of the university's academic performance I might add.
I was struck when I was at the QWEST Center for the subregional how many people came up to me to talk about Marquette basketball. Pointedly, it wasn't about how many wins we had or what a great X and O's TC is, etc., it was about how they admired how hard we play and how well run our program is by TC. They were genuinely pulling for us to win because we were being successful in the right way.
I don't know too many successful coaches who weren't a little Type A. Knight? Smith? Coach K? Ditka? Lombardi? Parcells? Coughlin? Majerus? I do know that all these guys had their critics. Success brings out the armchair quarterbacks. I would rather hear the catcalls than the apathetic quiet at UWM.
btw, I am from the "old" alumni. I will critique TC from time to time on here because I love talking MU and college basketball. I love March so much I exile the female side of the family out of the country. I doubt anyone would take any of my comments too seriously. If you do, don't as TC and crew have already thought of it. MU is very unique and special if you are a fan as it is year round focus. We lost and now its on to next year, not baseball, soccer or football, but next basketball season. We are in very good hands here with TC. The guy has done a special job in the BE and getting us to the Dance three straight years. And, he has a fist full of talent coming in doing it the right way and filling up the BC. Continuity trumps, don't lose it. TC is worth every penny
PS...while I don't like the "new" mascot, I secretly like the randomness of the Tigger outfit. I don't get it, and I am not sure anyone else does either, but it is funny...in a very unconnected way. New traditions are good, just so they are "Warrior Iconoclastic.".
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"I wonder how it looks to outside people when the University, for its Athletic Director position, urinates on 60 candidates for the job, the entire University community in its dishonesty, and most importantly, the Deputy Athletic Director who himself was an applicant for the job. (And no, I don't blame Crean for that mess given that it's the way Wild chooses to run the entire University)."
If this looks so bad to people outside the university, then we will never be able to hire a coach as good as Crean. I'm sure nobody would want to come to MU under the Wild regime, so we better hang on to TC.
Did they stop teaching logic at MU?
BTW it is clear by your name that you are still bitter with the administration on the nickname issue, so clearly you are being very objective now.
Wow, ok I know I put this in the exact post that you've just posted, but I don't blame Crean for that mess. I also was not making a commentary on the competency of a new coach hire if Crean left ... I think we have Cords to thank for Crean, not Wild.
My point is still valid.
If people outside the University view our administration as "dishonest," then why would a good coach choose MU over any other top school?
If we can't get a good coach to replace Crean, then why on earth would we want to let Crean go?
If you weren't intending to make a point about Crean in a thread about Crean, and instead were just lashing out at the University in general, then I appologize for misrepresenting your position. If that is the case, what is your point?
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How do you get on this e-mail list?
Favre retired and the sun came up the next day. If Crean bolts, we'd be just fine. Just think maybe we'll attract someone even more capable. I mean, is that even a possibility? Yeah, Tom's been here 9 seasons, but he's not the Second Coming. He'll be a much better coach at his next gig. Has been learning on the job here and slowly at that.
I agree with Rican. Talent level overall is subpar for a power conference like the BE. Maybe Tom's a better coach than I think. Has a knack for rubbing some the wrong way. Not believable when listening to him. Would make a great used car salesman, though. In summary, doesn't float my boat.
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My point is still valid.
If people outside the University view our administration as "dishonest," then why would a good coach choose MU over any other top school?
If we can't get a good coach to replace Crean, then why on earth would we want to let Crean go?
If you weren't intending to make a point about Crean in a thread about Crean, and instead were just lashing out at the University in general, then I appologize for misrepresenting your position. If that is the case, what is your point?
I wasn't making a point about Crean.
The point is, and this agrees with Chico's post to an extent, instability within a program (or any organization) shuns potential outside hires because it exudes an attitude of unwelcomeness, incompetency.
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I think MU takes a hugh dive if Crean leaves. Why it is possible to replace him with an up and coming coach, would this coach stay if another program job's opened up. As far as recruiting goes all you have to look at is the comment someone posted about how classy the Marquette players were in California. There are only so many good players. When you rule out the ones that looked like they will not fit in at Marquette the pool is significantly smaller. Crean does a good job at recruiting. Generally, when he losses a recruit is is to a more marquis program. I do not agree with everything he does, but I will never agree with everything any coach does. Certainly I think allowing Mbakee to play was not only a mistake, it was just plain stupid. I also think MU should try harder to redshirt freshmen. Some of them contribute so little as a freshmen, especially if you compare it to what they would add in a fifth year. Barro who had very little experience would have been a good canidate to redshirt as a freshmen. Novak who was so skinniy would have been a good canidate to redshirt as a freshmen. I also think he runs to many offensive sets. I rather be excellant at a few sets, than to be average at 100+ sets. I do not like it when he leaves the starters in after the game is clearly over. I think he sometimes goes to far in keeping players in the doghouse. I do not think we should schedule anyone we expect not to be in the top 200 teams. No reason to be playing a team ranking around 300. So there are many things I disagree with, but I think he is a great coach. I been going to games before McGuire was coach so I have seen a wide array of coaches. I can remember many times watching McGuire cost us games with technicals. I will guarantee you this the upside with another coach at MU is minable at best and the downside is hugh. All you have to do is look at Rick Majerus. Majerus eventually turned out to be a very good coach, but he ran the MU program in the ground.
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If Novak redshirts as a freshman, we don't make the final four.
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Everyone should watch the post-game interview that was from CBS-58. Crean looked spent and worse than anybody I have seen in awhile after the game. The man cares more about the team and the program than anybody. He has to be respected for that.
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Lets face it people Crean is recruiting top people to MARQUETTE and doing a good job of it. MU is no UNC, DUKE, UCLA or Kansas.
MU won a championship when these kids grandfathers were in college, a tough sell.
:-*
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I agree that our recruiting level isn't as great as the top Big East teams, but good recruits also come with time. Hiring someone who might run the program into the ground or bolt for the next job is a risk, and recruits are probably even harder to sell the school to. Over the summer, since Crean has been with the school 9 years, show recruits that he's brought a team at this school to five NCAA tournaments and the Final Four, can show recruits Dwayne Wade, his team consists of players he brought in, it all makes a difference. Look at the top Big East teams and their coaches - Calhoun, Pitino, Huggins, Boeheim, all tons of experience. Mike Brey and Jay Wright also have more head coaching experience than Crean. JTIII got the Georgetown job primarily because of his father. Jamie Dixon inherited a team that had been to two Sweet 16s in a row and hasn't gotten any further. If you're looking for players with more talent or someone you like better, maybe someone else is the option. But I think it's all reallya desire to win more games or have more postseason success, and chances are sticking with Crean is the best bet to get us there, unless you really believe our school, our administration, and a brand new athletic director is capable of hiring, and keeping, the next Calhoun or Boeheim. Even hiring a Jamie Dixon equivelent that can sustain the success of his predecessor would only get us to the first or second round every year, so he would be run out of town pretty quickly.
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He isn't perfect, but look at where we are compared to when he got here. I'm an alum looking at my 25th reunion this year. I support the guy 100%.
As an aside, I was visiting a college buddy in Milwaukee last summer and wandered with my wife and son into the Al to have a look. I happened to see Crean walk by in his usual hurry and, being the obnoxious guy I am, I cut him off to shake his hand and say hello and thank him for his efforts. My son was wearing a Sacred Heart shirt, and he asked if we were from Connecticut and he spent 5 minutes talking to us and could not have been more gracious. Told us to walk around the place and let us in to the main gym area and pointed out some things of interest. I'm certainly no big donor or anything to merit such special treatment.
When we played St. John's this year my family and I went to the pre-game reception and was talking to a guy who happened to be the new athletic director (only I didn't realize it) and he asked me what I thought of Crean and I told him that little story above and he told me he hears about stuff like that all the time and then told me he was the new AD. Also a gracious guy, btw.
That's the kind of guy I want running our program. He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).
Jeez, what's not to like?
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Alot of regular Joe old alums love Crean. My dad has had season tickets since 1960 and loves him. Crean called my dad in the hospital before his bypass surgery. No publicity for that but my dad was in a great mood as he went off to surgery.
That is not to say he doesn't criticize him esp. his end of game coaching.
If you think we will get a great coach who stays at MU like Crean, I say you are nuts.
Go Warriors
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Wait, so there's an email list?
Is it like a running message board, just via email? Is it like the Mason's where you have to be initiated to get on to it? Who one day decided, "hey, I'm going to email everyone I know and let them know how much MU basketball sucks today!"? Has this email chain been going on for years?
So many questions.
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That's the kind of guy I want running our program. He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).
Jeez, what's not to like?
This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.
Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.
There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.
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That's the kind of guy I want running our program. He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).
Jeez, what's not to like?
This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.
Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.
There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.
There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
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There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
This is where the critics lose me.
According to them, Crean is a bad game coach and leaves much to be desired as a recruiter.
Yet, somehow, he manages to put up 20+ wins most years and gets his team in the NCAA tourney much more often than not, i.e. five of the last seven years.
How is it possible for such a bad coach and mediocre recruiter to have that kind of success? Is he simply the luckiest guy around?
FYI ... I think TC is imperfect as both a recruiter and game coach, but he's hands down the best head coach MU has had in 30 years, by a very large margin. The bashers would do well to remember that.
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There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
More questions...
Do you feel he does a good job with player development? Do you think that his game preparation is quality? Do you think our players play hard? Do you feel that Marquette players represent themselves in a way that makes you proud to be an alum? Do you feel that his in-game adjustments have improved at any level over the last nine years?
Personally, I agree that his in-game changes are deficient in comparison to other aspects of coaching. He was never a D1 player and he's only been a head coach for nine years. Of course, I also think that this is an area where he is improving. As an example, in the Georgetown game, he switched Matthews onto Rivers mid-game after Rivers made several early shots.
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Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should.
I think his overall recruiting is pretty good, it would be great if he got a big man.
Wes, Lazar, Jerel & DJ could start for most BE teams.
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There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
This is where the critics lose me.
According to them, Crean is a bad game coach and leaves much to be desired as a recruiter.
Yet, somehow, he manages to put up 20+ wins most years and gets his team in the NCAA tourney much more often than not, i.e. five of the last seven years.
How is it possible for such a bad coach and mediocre recruiter to have that kind of success? Is he simply the luckiest guy around?
FYI ... I think TC is imperfect as both a recruiter and game coach, but he's hands down the best head coach MU has had in 30 years, but a very large margin. The bashers would do well to remember that.
Exactly. TC is either a good recruiter or a good xs and os coach, or both. You don't have the success we have had without doing something right. Which is it guys? You can't have it both ways. I know PRN thinks he is not a good recruiter and a decent game coach. Apparently DamonKeys thinks he is, "a fish out of water once the ball is tipped." You can't both be right because we have finished in the top third of the best conference in the country for 3 straight years and made the NCAAs 3 years in a row.
Now is the point where someone makes the vague, "he is an ok coach but bad guy/dishonest/used car salesman," arguement. I don't know, some people just don't care for Crean and that is fine. Some personalities don't mesh well but TC has been more successful than any coach since Al so unless someone can clearly explain how we would be better off without TC, I think we should officially put this discussion to bed.
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Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should.
I think his overall recruiting is pretty good, it would be great if he got a big man.
Wes, Lazar, Jerel & DJ could start for most BE teams.
All the game prep in the world is not going to make a team without much talent and a horrible game coach beat good teams. If you are correct and TC is a bad game coach then he must be a great recruiter to have the success that we have had.
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There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
This is where the critics lose me.
According to them, Crean is a bad game coach and leaves much to be desired as a recruiter.
Yet, somehow, he manages to put up 20+ wins most years and gets his team in the NCAA tourney much more often than not, i.e. five of the last seven years.
How is it possible for such a bad coach and mediocre recruiter to have that kind of success? Is he simply the luckiest guy around?
FYI ... I think TC is imperfect as both a recruiter and game coach, but he's hands down the best head coach MU has had in 30 years, but a very large margin. The bashers would do well to remember that.
I know PRN thinks he is not a good recruiter and a decent game coach. Apparently DamonKeys thinks he is, "a fish out of water once the ball is tipped." You can't both be right because we have finished in the top third of the best conference in the country for 3 straight years and made the NCAAs 3 years in a row.
Incorrect. I think his strength is in preparation. I think he's way too high strung during games. I find it difficult to believe he can intelligently break down what's going on during the game while pacing back and forth like that. And eyewitness accounts from some very big games recently reveal that, at times, he's out of control and abusive.
I suspect the assistant coaching exodus will begin any day now.
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"Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should."
Should we have beaten Wisconsin this year, Kentucky in the elite eight, UCONN in first BE game ever, ND this years BE tourney?
He has definitely won some games he shouldn't have.
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Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should.
I think his overall recruiting is pretty good, it would be great if he got a big man.
Wes, Lazar, Jerel & DJ could start for most BE teams.
All the game prep in the world is not going to make a team without much talent and a horrible game coach beat good teams. If you are correct and TC is a bad game coach then he must be a great recruiter to have the success that we have had.
Both our 3 and 4 guys are around 6'4". Our 2 is about 6'2". They're all decent ballplayers, but how is that good recruiting? Forget about getting a single "big." We need to have size at other positions to legitimately compete. Next year, we'll have 8 guards on our roster.
I'll say this, that was a helluva tough loss on Saturday. No doubt about that. But we had 4 starters back this year, plus Hayward. And we barely cracked the top 25 by the end of the season.
Is it because of effort? I don't think so. Is it because of poor play? Arguably no.
It's because we don't have any size at ANY position and whether you want to admit it or not that's a reflection on our recruiting!!
You may think Crean is the greatest coach we've had since McGuire, but the only coach we've had that was a worse recruiter was Deane. Even Dukiet got some talent in here, but the school wouldn't play ball like they do now. O'Neill was a much better recruiter than Crean.
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I'm a TC supporter, no doubt. But there are some things I think he is lacking in a bit. First, he paid the price for that 2003 class for a couple of seasons... losing all 4 set recruiting back at least a year, as TC had to reach on a couple of players. Other than that I have no problem with the recruiting... it's an inexact science, and plenty of great coaches have had their fair share of misses.
The main gripe I have with the game coaching is I think he lacks a feel for the game at times. Timeouts and substitutions can at times be made a few possessions too late. There are other little things as well, like way too much dribbling and lateral motion in the offense. Or never attacking from an inbounds play. It seems like any inbounds play they run is only supposed to get the ball in, never to score. But when you have your 5-11 PG passing it in I guess it makes it difficult to see over a taller defender.
Like I said, we're much better off with him... he's done a lot for the program. There are aspects, like with anything, he needs to keep working on.
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Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should.
I think his overall recruiting is pretty good, it would be great if he got a big man.
Wes, Lazar, Jerel & DJ could start for most BE teams.
All the game prep in the world is not going to make a team without much talent and a horrible game coach beat good teams. If you are correct and TC is a bad game coach then he must be a great recruiter to have the success that we have had.
Both our 3 and 4 guys are around 6'4". Our 2 is about 6'2". They're all decent ballplayers, but how is that good recruiting? Forget about getting a single "big." We need to have size at other positions to legitimately compete. Next year, we'll have 8 guards on our roster.
I'll say this, that was a helluva tough loss on Saturday. No doubt about that. But we had 4 starters back this year, plus Hayward. And we barely cracked the top 25 by the end of the season.
Is it because of effort? I don't think so. Is it because of poor play? Arguably no.
It's because we don't have any size at ANY position and whether you want to admit it or not that's a reflection on our recruiting!!
You may think Crean is the greatest coach we've had since McGuire, but the only coach we've had that was a worse recruiter was Deane. Even Dukiet got some talent in here, but the school wouldn't play ball like they do now. O'Neill was a much better recruiter than Crean.
PRN, I understand your point on recruiting. I disagree but I understand. My point is that DamonKeys thinks he is an bad game coach. If he is a bad game coach then he must be a very good recruiter because we have been very successful. He attributes our success to preparation but then claims that Crean is abusive on the bench and control freak that people can't stand to work for. If people dislike him so much, then why do they work so hard for him? Why hasn't Burke or Trend just given up at this point?
The reasons people dislike Crean are all over the place. You think he is a bad recruiter. DamonKeys thinks he is a bad game coach but a good recruiter. The arguments against Crean are inconsistent and actually opposed to each other. I am asking which one of you is right. Because it can't be both of you.
The real question is, would we be better off without Crean. I would like anyone to explain how we would be better off without him.
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MUSF said: "He attributes our success to preparation but then claims that Crean is abusive on the bench and control freak that people can't stand to work for. If people dislike him so much, then why do they work so hard for him?"
MU has been forced to overpay for assistants because he's so difficult to work with. Yet they still leave every year. I'm sure Buzz Williams will be next. And Seltzer for sure.
There are a number of posters on this board who claim it's natural for assistants to continue to climb up the ladder if they're ambitious. Yet Crean himself stayed at MSU for about 5 years. Is he not ambitious? How long was Tom Izzo under Jud Heathcoate?
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This thread is a joke. You can never please some people no matter what you do. I would hate to see what these people are like in normal life.
Some of the reasons people don't like Crean:
He is a bad recruiter - I don't think he is a great recruiter by an means but he brings in pretty good players, see Blankson, Wade, Novak, Diener, James, Matthews, McNeal, Hayward. The biggest problem is that MU hasn't had balance. In the two years after Wade left we were thin at guard, now we are thin on the frontline. I think Crean does need to try to get more balance in the program but I have to question how we have won so many games in the Big East if our team lacks talent. The only team to win significantly more games than MU in the last 3 years is GTown. Crean has won as many games as coaches like Pitino, Calhoun, Dixon, and Wright, and more games than Boeheim, who has managed to recruits tons of McD AA. Would you rather have all those "stars" that Cuse had or the wins MU had?
He is a bad game coach - I don't think he always makes the best decisions but he does put his team in a positon to win. I thought the did a great job this year in regards to this department. Coming out against Nova in the second half and blowing their doors off was a great example. How MU played the last defensive possession against Stanford was another as they forced an awfully difficult shot. Some of his moves are questionable but he sure has been able to beat a lot of coaching legends.
He isn't likeable / he is a used car salesman - Some people say this all the time but never have any concrete evidence. However, you constantly hear stories about how Crean went out of his way to talk to fans or made special gestures. He is the grand marshall of Al's run but people gloss over that and instead rip on his attire. He makes a large donation in an effort to attract others but people think it is shameless self-promotion. If you have never, ever met him in your life, how can you possibly have an opinion on his personality?
MOST IMPORTANTLY - The basketball players are still STUDENT athletes. Crean graduates them at a fanstastic rate. On top of that, Crean has had 0 mention of any NCAA infractions and his players have never gotten into trouble are are classy individuals based on all accounts (see DJ at the end of the Kentucky game).
Some have said that MU has always attracted good coaching talent and they wouldn't mind to see him go (though not necessarily calling for him to leave) and that MU would be fine without him. There is a chance MU would be fine if Crean left and a small chance they would be better off, but I believe there is a much better chance MU would not be nearly as good. It took MU 30 years after McGuire to find a good coach who actually wanted to build a PROGRAM at MU. Majerus, Dukiet, and Deane may all have been good coaches or possibly even better recruiters, but no one can argue any of these men had nearly the success Crean has had. O'Neail had a good run at MU but he thought the job was a stepping stone and not a place to build a program, Crean has shown he wants to build something here.
I believe the bottom line is that MU is in good hands right now and to push Crean out the door would be highly foolish and irresponsible given what he has accomplished in his tenure.
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That's the kind of guy I want running our program. He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).
Jeez, what's not to like?
This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.
Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.
There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.
There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
That's a fair point... but when you look at the overall state of the program, I would argue that he's a good enough game coach. I don't think he is as instinctual as some other coaches... but the numbers speak for themselves. He's doing a LOT of things right... so picking out one aspect and griping isn't enough of a reason to think that we need a new coach.
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That's the kind of guy I want running our program. He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).
Jeez, what's not to like?
This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.
Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.
There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.
There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
That's a fair point... but when you look at the overall state of the program, I would argue that he's a good enough game coach. I don't think he is as instinctual as some other coaches... but the numbers speak for themselves. He's doing a LOT of things right... so picking out one aspect and griping isn't enough of a reason to think that we need a new coach.
I have never said we need a new coach, PRN said yesterday that pushing him out was insane. I think both our points is that this guy doesn't walk on water and replacing him IF HE LEFT would not be impossible.
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That's the kind of guy I want running our program. He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).
Jeez, what's not to like?
This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.
Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.
There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.
There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
That's a fair point... but when you look at the overall state of the program, I would argue that he's a good enough game coach. I don't think he is as instinctual as some other coaches... but the numbers speak for themselves. He's doing a LOT of things right... so picking out one aspect and griping isn't enough of a reason to think that we need a new coach.
I have never said we need a new coach, PRN said yesterday that pushing him out was insane. I think both our points is that this guy doesn't walk on water and replacing him IF HE LEFT would not be impossible.
Really that is all you two want? Peaopl on this board to admit that A: crean can't walk on water and B: our program would not cease to exist if he left? Ok fine, you win. He isn't the jesus of baskeball coaches and we would still have a team if he got hit by a bus. I propose that we taser the genatalia of anyone who argues against either of these points. I think each new member when they sign up should have to first take a test that looks like this:
1) does crean walk on water?
a) yes
b) no
2) would we still have a team if crean left?
a) yes
b) no
And if anyone got either wrong we could record their IP and ban them from the site completely forever.
There, now can we stop hearing senseless bashing along the lines of 'He can't look at a game intellegently because he paces too much.' I don't see how anyone who can read this board would come away thinking 'all those guys want is for people to realize he doesn't walk on water.' when he is called 'a fish out of water' and is attacked for trying to raise cash for a soccer field, having a game scheduled at the same time as the packer game, any time a player is hurt in practice, any time someone he employes is offered a raise and a promotion by an outside organization, any time he recruits anyone under 6'9, any time he loses a game where his best players spend the entire game missing wide open 17 footers, you can claim that people who get obsessed and attack him on a personal level on a weekly basis are just trying to convince people that he isn't perfect but all it does is make people who have a realistic view of him (ie. me) have to spend time defending him from crazies who get mad over things he doesn't even have control over.
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That's the kind of guy I want running our program. He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).
Jeez, what's not to like?
This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.
Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.
There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.
There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
That's a fair point... but when you look at the overall state of the program, I would argue that he's a good enough game coach. I don't think he is as instinctual as some other coaches... but the numbers speak for themselves. He's doing a LOT of things right... so picking out one aspect and griping isn't enough of a reason to think that we need a new coach.
I have never said we need a new coach, PRN said yesterday that pushing him out was insane. I think both our points is that this guy doesn't walk on water and replacing him IF HE LEFT would not be impossible.
I hear ya, I know you aren't implying that we want a new coach... just replying to the general idea that their is somebody else out there who is just as good.
Because Crean isn't the best in certain aspects of coaching doesn't mean MU will be able to replace him with an equally good coach.
Crean does a TON of things well, and some things just "ok". Like I said, given the overall state of the program, I would argue that even in the areas where he isn't "great", he is doing well enough to make MU a very good program.
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...and is attacked for trying to raise cash for a soccer field...
He was attacked for calling a press conference to announce this donation...and rightfully so!
Thanks for reminding me.
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There are a number of posters on this board who claim it's natural for assistants to continue to climb up the ladder if they're ambitious. Yet Crean himself stayed at MSU for about 5 years. Is he not ambitious? How long was Tom Izzo under Jud Heathcoate?
Actually, Tom Crean moved quite a bit early in his coaching career. He went from Michigan State to Western Kentucky to Pitt and back to Michigan State in a span of seven years. In his second tenure at MSU he was first an assistant coach and then elevated to associate head coach. Again, more climbing up the ladder.
In terms of climbing up the ladder, there's not much higher than one could go as an assistant than being the associate head coach at a program that was fast becoming one of the elites of college basketball.
By the way, what's your evidence/sourcing for MU being forced to "overpay" its assistants. What are the salaries of MU's assistants and how do those compare with others across the country?
It would be swell if you would occasionally take the time to support some of your statements with facts. But I won't count on it.
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...and is attacked for trying to raise cash for a soccer field...
He was attacked for calling a press conference to announce this donation...and rightfully so!
Thanks for reminding me.
Can you please show us and/or tell us how you know that Crean wanted to call the presser?
Thanks.
Common sense tells me that MU wanted to do the presser to promote the soccer stadium and use the Crean's generous donation to kick off the campaign.
That makes sense, right?
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Anyone think Joani is tougher on TC about his in game coaching than us keyboard hacks?
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That's the kind of guy I want running our program. He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).
Jeez, what's not to like?
This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.
Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.
There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.
There's more to it than attitude and personality. Do you think he's a good game coach? Do you think he has a good feel for the game? I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.
That's a fair point... but when you look at the overall state of the program, I would argue that he's a good enough game coach. I don't think he is as instinctual as some other coaches... but the numbers speak for themselves. He's doing a LOT of things right... so picking out one aspect and griping isn't enough of a reason to think that we need a new coach.
I have never said we need a new coach, PRN said yesterday that pushing him out was insane. I think both our points is that this guy doesn't walk on water and replacing him IF HE LEFT would not be impossible.
Really that is all you two want? Peaopl on this board to admit that A: crean can't walk on water and B: our program would not cease to exist if he left? Ok fine, you win. He isn't the jesus of baskeball coaches and we would still have a team if he got hit by a bus. I propose that we taser the genatalia of anyone who argues against either of these points. I think each new member when they sign up should have to first take a test that looks like this:
1) does crean walk on water?
a) yes
b) no
2) would we still have a team if crean left?
a) yes
b) no
And if anyone got either wrong we could record their IP and ban them from the site completely forever.
There, now can we stop hearing senseless bashing along the lines of 'He can't look at a game intellegently because he paces too much.' I don't see how anyone who can read this board would come away thinking 'all those guys want is for people to realize he doesn't walk on water.' when he is called 'a fish out of water' and is attacked for trying to raise cash for a soccer field, having a game scheduled at the same time as the packer game, any time a player is hurt in practice, any time someone he employes is offered a raise and a promotion by an outside organization, any time he recruits anyone under 6'9, any time he loses a game where his best players spend the entire game missing wide open 17 footers, you can claim that people who get obsessed and attack him on a personal level on a weekly basis are just trying to convince people that he isn't perfect but all it does is make people who have a realistic view of him (ie. me) have to spend time defending him from crazies who get mad over things he doesn't even have control over.
Best post ever. I'm out.
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Just finished reading this entire thread. WOW. Have to throw my 2 cents in. First, GT and his supporters need to stop crying in their milk. GT was an absolute BORE on the radio. Secondly, I sit within ear shot of the coaching staff and have since the Dukiet era. TC is by far the best of the bunch. He is extremely positive and productive when addressing his players after substitutions. For those who think he is not a good game coach, let's not forget that his team is competing successfully in auguably the best conference in the country with the some of the best coaches in the country. The recruits will come with more time in the BEAST. KO was an a$$. It was embarassing listening to him berate and swear at our players and literally bringing some to tears. Let's not forget about him getting on the team bus after the loss to Duke wearing Tennessee clothing. Better game coach??? Can't really compare him to TC. He was coaching against Dayton, Loyola, Butler, SLU, etc. not GTown, UCONN, SYR, etc. I'll take my chances with TC. It's been a long time since this program has seen such upward momentum.
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How do you get on this e-mail list?
Favre retired and the sun came up the next day. If Crean bolts, we'd be just fine. Just think maybe we'll attract someone even more capable. I mean, is that even a possibility? Yeah, Tom's been here 9 seasons, but he's not the Second Coming. He'll be a much better coach at his next gig. Has been learning on the job here and slowly at that.
I agree with Rican. Talent level overall is subpar for a power conference like the BE. Maybe Tom's a better coach than I think. Has a knack for rubbing some the wrong way. Not believable when listening to him. Would make a great used car salesman, though. In summary, doesn't float my boat.
I can imagine the words that were uttered after these guys left
McGuire..."we'll be just fine"
Raymonds..."we'll be just fine"
Majerus..."we'll be just fine"
O'Neill..."we'll be just fine"
Sendek...."we'll be just fine"
Etc, etc.
Equally silly are the statements from the Crean "doesn't float my boat" crowd that some of us think he walks on water. None of us do think that. Al didn't walk on water either. We just think the bitching is silly and out of whack with reality and realize how many idiotic mistakes we've made at the university not to trust them to make a good hire....nor do I think we would get someone for the long haul, a failing this program has had for 20+ years until Crean came to town.
I think the email list is at stuckin1977@warriors.com
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been reading this thread for a while and find it quite amusing. As a fan of the program for 50 years, I will tell you that we are lucky to have Crean and it is unrealistic to think that the program would not suffer reverses if he were to leave or be forced out. Crean's successes have been posted on this thread ad nauseum. Let's not kick around the obvious. If you think we can do better you are not paying attention. Period.
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Rawdog, that was funny!! ;)
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To address the point about not being genuine, I have heard that from people before. Here is what happened to me.
My family finished eating at a restaurant and as we were walking out we saw Joani, Lazar, a recruit, and the recruits father waiting for a table. When we got outside and were walking away from the entrance we saw Crean walking toward the door after parking his car. My boys said "hi coach" and we kept walking. Crean then says "Hey guys, come here. Let me introduce you to some people" So we go back inside with him to get introduced to everyone. He then walks away and comes back with some menus and has Lazar and the recruit sign autographs for my kids.
I would think that the last thing he is interested in when trying to convince a recruit to come to MU is making sure that my kids get introduced and get an autograph, but he did. So I am not really sure why I continue to hear that he is not genuine.
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As best as I can discern, it is 33-3 in favor of TC (92%). Sounds like the halftime score against UWM. GT, on the other hand, suffered a reverse shutout as an announcer I hate to report. I think it is time to put this one to bed.
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To address the point about not being genuine, I have heard that from people before. Here is what happened to me.
My family finished eating at a restaurant and as we were walking out we saw Joani, Lazar, a recruit, and the recruits father waiting for a table. When we got outside and were walking away from the entrance we saw Crean walking toward the door after parking his car. My boys said "hi coach" and we kept walking. Crean then says "Hey guys, come here. Let me introduce you to some people" So we go back inside with him to get introduced to everyone. He then walks away and comes back with some menus and has Lazar and the recruit sign autographs for my kids.
I would think that the last thing he is interested in when trying to convince a recruit to come to MU is making sure that my kids get introduced and get an autograph, but he did. So I am not really sure why I continue to hear that he is not genuine.
I am a firm believer that you can find out a lot about someone from who they married. In other words, if the spouse is cool and genuine then usually so is the other one. Not always, but usually I have found this to be the case.
Joanie is a class act so that speaks volumes to me about the sincerity and genuineness of her husband.
The guy had basically no father, is a self starter, definitely a type A in a big way....that turns off some people. So be it. I want that kind of guy running my country, running our military, running my company and running my basketball team. I'll take different kind of people running other things in life, but those are the types I want for those leadership positions.
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I really do not see how Crean rubs people the wrong way. The only way this occurs is that you hate the MU program. It is like my attitude about Hilary and O'Bama, which is more a reflection of me being a staunch republican than anything else. We have not had a coach so dedicated to Marquette and so representative of MU values since Hank Raymonds. You guys talk about getting another Kevin O'Neal. Kevin O'Neal was fouled mouthed and and saw MU only as a stepping stone. Crean's been here 9 years and I hope he is here another 30. Why I understand the desire for more success, the idea we would not miss Crean or be better off without him is just plain stupid. I was young, but I was at McGuire's first game here so I seen every coach you have seen at MU. I really don't understand why someone is so upset about the athletic director we hired. Frankly, I do not know the athelitc director, but I do not have any reason to believe he cannot run the athletic department. The only think I can think is that the person bitching about this was one of the 60 people who applied for the job. Finally, there are more important things in life than basketball. Why don't you guys quit your bitching and go out and do something good and meaningful in this world. I love MU ball, but I am not going to let a loss send my life into despair and I am certainly not going to spend my time bashing someone, because we lost.
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To address the point about not being genuine, I have heard that from people before. Here is what happened to me.
My family finished eating at a restaurant and as we were walking out we saw Joani, Lazar, a recruit, and the recruits father waiting for a table. When we got outside and were walking away from the entrance we saw Crean walking toward the door after parking his car. My boys said "hi coach" and we kept walking. Crean then says "Hey guys, come here. Let me introduce you to some people" So we go back inside with him to get introduced to everyone. He then walks away and comes back with some menus and has Lazar and the recruit sign autographs for my kids.
I would think that the last thing he is interested in when trying to convince a recruit to come to MU is making sure that my kids get introduced and get an autograph, but he did. So I am not really sure why I continue to hear that he is not genuine.
I've had similar (not to that extent) experiences. The people who have disagreements about Crean's character may have had different experiences, I don't know. I've been very impressed by Crean's interest in random people: each time I've interacted with him he has come across as genuinely interested and appreciative of people's interest/devotion to the program. I've never heard otherwise from a single student.
I may be projecting my own disgust with the Administration (at the end of a long academic career at this place) into the following comment, but I think some of the criticism of Crean is somewhat misplaced disappointment in the manner in which Marquette operates, in this instance in the most publicly available forum, the basketball program.
Marquette has had great strides over the past couple decades but a number of business/academic/etc decisions have had people scratching their head (look at Gold, for example). I think, with Crean, people are upset that Wild "gives Crean too free a hand," or whatever, given that Crean is clearly one of the highest paid coaches in basketball and seems to have pretty free reign in his arena of the Athletic Dept.
I don't blame Crean for being self-interested; in fact as a student of economics I take it that every person is self-interested (not the same as selfish). Crean's smart to take whatever salary he can get out of MU. To some, though, Crean's huge salary and "free hand" don't equate with the results one might expect from someone getting such a high salary. I agree with many of these criticisms.
But the problem isn't (to a great extent) Crean, it's Wild's complete inability to play poker with Crean, to have a "more exact" - so to speak - cause/effect between Crean's performance and the reward for his performance. People see that MU appears to have the money to dish out for a high salary, and when the same results of other coaches with similar salaries achieving perhaps more in the tournament don't materialize at MU, they get upset.
That's how I see things anyways, or where any of my criticism might come from. Does the University have to offer Crean a premium for coming to Milwaukee because it's "such a horrible place" or something? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But I don't think that criticism of the University for opening up its coffers so willingly automatically earns one the pejoratives of "hater" or "basher" etc.
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To address the point about not being genuine, I have heard that from people before. Here is what happened to me.
My family finished eating at a restaurant and as we were walking out we saw Joani, Lazar, a recruit, and the recruits father waiting for a table. When we got outside and were walking away from the entrance we saw Crean walking toward the door after parking his car. My boys said "hi coach" and we kept walking. Crean then says "Hey guys, come here. Let me introduce you to some people" So we go back inside with him to get introduced to everyone. He then walks away and comes back with some menus and has Lazar and the recruit sign autographs for my kids.
I would think that the last thing he is interested in when trying to convince a recruit to come to MU is making sure that my kids get introduced and get an autograph, but he did. So I am not really sure why I continue to hear that he is not genuine.
I've had similar (not to that extent) experiences. The people who have disagreements about Crean's character may have had different experiences, I don't know. I've been very impressed by Crean's interest in random people: each time I've interacted with him he has come across as genuinely interested and appreciative of people's interest/devotion to the program. I've never heard otherwise from a single student.
I may be projecting my own disgust with the Administration (at the end of a long academic career at this place) into the following comment, but I think some of the criticism of Crean is somewhat misplaced disappointment in the manner in which Marquette operates, in this instance in the most publicly available forum, the basketball program.
Marquette has had great strides over the past couple decades but a number of business/academic/etc decisions have had people scratching their head (look at Gold, for example). I think, with Crean, people are upset that Wild "gives Crean too free a hand," or whatever, given that Crean is clearly one of the highest paid coaches in basketball and seems to have pretty free reign in his arena of the Athletic Dept.
I don't blame Crean for being self-interested; in fact as a student of economics I take it that every person is self-interested (not the same as selfish). Crean's smart to take whatever salary he can get out of MU. To some, though, Crean's huge salary and "free hand" don't equate with the results one might expect from someone getting such a high salary. I agree with many of these criticisms.
But the problem isn't (to a great extent) Crean, it's Wild's complete inability to play poker with Crean, to have a "more exact" - so to speak - cause/effect between Crean's performance and the reward for his performance. People see that MU appears to have the money to dish out for a high salary, and when the same results of other coaches with similar salaries achieving perhaps more in the tournament don't materialize at MU, they get upset.
That's how I see things anyways, or where any of my criticism might come from. Does the University have to offer Crean a premium for coming to Milwaukee because it's "such a horrible place" or something? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But I don't think that criticism of the University for opening up its coffers so willingly automatically earns one the pejoratives of "hater" or "basher" etc.
I too felt very frustrated with the administration at times during my MU days. What I came to realize is that, being a religious institution and more specifically a Catholic institution, MU often has a difficult conflict of interests within the staff and administration that makes for some questionable policies and decisions. Stay with me on this.
Planning is very important in my line of work and it is a collaborative effort. Whenever a poor plan is produced, the planning team often can't adequately explain the reasoning behind the plan. Poor plans are often the result of concessions and compromises that take from multiple ideas and the end state is a poor conglomeration of multiple ideas or a bastardized version of someones original plan. Such is the case with many MU decisions including the dreaded Gold. In an effort to offend no one, they offended everyone. Most of all, they un-intentionally insulted everyones intelligence.
Fr. Wild is in an awful position. He is the head of a major university that requires devotion to academic advancement and shrewd business acumen. On the other hand, he is a priest who has sworn a vow of obedience and ultimately answers to the church and depending on your affiliation God. So my point is, if you are expecting Fr. Wild SJ to be a steely eyed "poker player," and shrewd negotiator, you probably are going to be disappointed.
To the specific point of Crean's salary, I don't think he is overpaid. MU is at a disadvantage athletically for a lot of reasons that have been discussed here previously. If we want a good coach, we probably have to pay a little more than a lot of seemingly equal programs would pay for the same caliber coach.
As for the, "Crean's huge salary and "free hand" don't equate with the results one might expect from someone getting such a high salary," argument; what results do you and others expect? Sweet sixteen every year? Every other year? NCAAs every year? What is a final four worth? The point that many of us are trying to make, is that some people are simply malcontents and their expectations are unrealistic. Crean has been more successful than any coach since Al by any measure of success you might use.
Other Crean critics obviously have some personal problem with him and they rightfully get the label, "bashers/haters."
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To address the point about not being genuine, I have heard that from people before. Here is what happened to me.
My family finished eating at a restaurant and as we were walking out we saw Joani, Lazar, a recruit, and the recruits father waiting for a table. When we got outside and were walking away from the entrance we saw Crean walking toward the door after parking his car. My boys said "hi coach" and we kept walking. Crean then says "Hey guys, come here. Let me introduce you to some people" So we go back inside with him to get introduced to everyone. He then walks away and comes back with some menus and has Lazar and the recruit sign autographs for my kids.
I would think that the last thing he is interested in when trying to convince a recruit to come to MU is making sure that my kids get introduced and get an autograph, but he did. So I am not really sure why I continue to hear that he is not genuine.
I've had similar (not to that extent) experiences. The people who have disagreements about Crean's character may have had different experiences, I don't know. I've been very impressed by Crean's interest in random people: each time I've interacted with him he has come across as genuinely interested and appreciative of people's interest/devotion to the program. I've never heard otherwise from a single student.
I may be projecting my own disgust with the Administration (at the end of a long academic career at this place) into the following comment, but I think some of the criticism of Crean is somewhat misplaced disappointment in the manner in which Marquette operates, in this instance in the most publicly available forum, the basketball program.
Marquette has had great strides over the past couple decades but a number of business/academic/etc decisions have had people scratching their head (look at Gold, for example). I think, with Crean, people are upset that Wild "gives Crean too free a hand," or whatever, given that Crean is clearly one of the highest paid coaches in basketball and seems to have pretty free reign in his arena of the Athletic Dept.
I don't blame Crean for being self-interested; in fact as a student of economics I take it that every person is self-interested (not the same as selfish). Crean's smart to take whatever salary he can get out of MU. To some, though, Crean's huge salary and "free hand" don't equate with the results one might expect from someone getting such a high salary. I agree with many of these criticisms.
But the problem isn't (to a great extent) Crean, it's Wild's complete inability to play poker with Crean, to have a "more exact" - so to speak - cause/effect between Crean's performance and the reward for his performance. People see that MU appears to have the money to dish out for a high salary, and when the same results of other coaches with similar salaries achieving perhaps more in the tournament don't materialize at MU, they get upset.
That's how I see things anyways, or where any of my criticism might come from. Does the University have to offer Crean a premium for coming to Milwaukee because it's "such a horrible place" or something? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But I don't think that criticism of the University for opening up its coffers so willingly automatically earns one the pejoratives of "hater" or "basher" etc.
I too felt very frustrated with the administration at times during my MU days. What I came to realize is that, being a religious institution and more specifically a Catholic institution, MU often has a difficult conflict of interests within the staff and administration that makes for some questionable policies and decisions. Stay with me on this.
Planning is very important in my line of work and it is a collaborative effort. Whenever a poor plan is produced, the planning team often can't adequately explain the reasoning behind the plan. Poor plans are often the result of concessions and compromises that take from multiple ideas and the end state is a poor conglomeration of multiple ideas or a bastardized version of someones original plan. Such is the case with many MU decisions including the dreaded Gold. In an effort to offend no one, they offended everyone. Most of all, they un-intentionally insulted everyones intelligence.
Fr. Wild is in an awful position. He is the head of a major university that requires devotion to academic advancement and shrewd business acumen. On the other hand, he is a priest who has sworn a vow of obedience and ultimately answers to the church and depending on your affiliation God. So my point is, if you are expecting Fr. Wild SJ to be a steely eyed "poker player," and shrewd negotiator, you probably are going to be disappointed.
To the specific point of Crean's salary, I don't think he is overpaid. MU is at a disadvantage athletically for a lot of reasons that have been discussed here previously. If we want a good coach, we probably have to pay a little more than a lot of seemingly equal programs would pay for the same caliber coach.
As for the, "Crean's huge salary and "free hand" don't equate with the results one might expect from someone getting such a high salary," argument; what results do you and others expect? Sweet sixteen every year? Every other year? NCAAs every year? What is a final four worth? The point that many of us are trying to make, is that some people are simply malcontents and their expectations are unrealistic. Crean has been more successful than any coach since Al by any measure of success you might use.
Other Crean critics obviously have some personal problem with him and they rightfully get the label, "bashers/haters."
Nice post.
Also, as a long time reader of this board, I have to say that this thread contains some of the most well written, thoughtful and even insightful posts ever written around here.
Obviously it helps that most people agree on this subject.... but the depth and quality of the thought and writing is impressive in this case. Some interesting points are being made, and some interesting counter-points are being made... all within a productive, open discussion.
(also RawDog's tazer bit was good too)
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I have screamed at the TV or in the arena for years when Tom has made what I thought was the wrong substitution or didn't react to game situations the way I thought he should. I screamed Saturday when we didn't pressure the ball or double-team Lopez down low on the winning shot. He is not the world's best game coach. But he runs a clean program and his kids graduate and we are more than competitive in one of the best conferences in the country. Do we miss out on getting the one-and-done kids the big boys get? Yep, and I'm glad we do. I would hate to think MU would become a factory for guys like Oden and Anthony who come to school, take their six credits the first half of freshman year, and then say "see ya." Crean does things the right way and is a great ambassador for the school. Does he crave the limelight? Probably. So did Al.
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Basically, he's not a very likable guy and I would love it if he accepted another job.
Who do you want to get to replace him? It seems some people complain a lot without offering any solutions.
We've never had a problem attracting coaching candidates...ever. Kevin O'Neill was one of the hottest assistant coaches in the country when he took over. Deane was something of a hot commodity. Heck, even Bob Dukiet was one of the most highly regarded coaches in the country.
We'd be fine if Crean left.
Are you forgetting these highly regarded coaches (besides KO) didn't work out? Dukiet locked the players out of the gym on accident, his tenure was rife with poor communication and poor performance. And Deane was let go because he didn't see eye-to-eye with Cords in the fact that Deane didn't think MU could compete on a national level it once enjoyed.
So, 1 out of 3 ain't bad I guess. Yes, Deane did "work out" in that he won lots of games, but did Deane get to an NCAA Final Four? He got to the NIT Finals on all borrowed players (players he never recruited).
So, we can live with 20+ win seasons, NCAA tournement invitations and solid student athletes that represent MU very well. Or, we can try Door #3 and possibly shoot it all to hell with the next "highly regarded" coach.
EDIT: And you think relying on a first time AD is going to find this next super-coach? I'm not so sure it was MU's repetation that got those folks interested, I think Cords should get much of the praise for landing those coaches.
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...and is attacked for trying to raise cash for a soccer field...
He was attacked for calling a press conference to announce this donation...and rightfully so!
Thanks for reminding me.
Can you please show us and/or tell us how you know that Crean wanted to call the presser?
Thanks.
Common sense tells me that MU wanted to do the presser to promote the soccer stadium and use the Crean's generous donation to kick off the campaign.
That makes sense, right?
You won't get an answer....the most ridiculous thing is that he really believes that Crean called a press conference to promote his own donation....
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...and is attacked for trying to raise cash for a soccer field...
He was attacked for calling a press conference to announce this donation...and rightfully so!
Thanks for reminding me.
Can you please show us and/or tell us how you know that Crean wanted to call the presser?
Thanks.
Common sense tells me that MU wanted to do the presser to promote the soccer stadium and use the Crean's generous donation to kick off the campaign.
That makes sense, right?
You won't get an answer....the most ridiculous thing is that he really believes that Crean called a press conference to promote his own donation....
You guys are clueless.
You are ridiculous. You honestly think that Crean said, "if I donate this $100,000 towards the campaign to build the new soccer stadium I demand that we hold a press conference to tell everyone how great I am."
What about the $1M donation that KBS Construction made for the same project...when Dennis Klein's (MU alum) name was plastered all over the press 3 weeks prior to the Crean announcement? Is Dennis Klein self-promoting too?
What about the $51M donation the Eckstein's made for the new law school? I can't believe we even know their names...how self-promoting of them.
Do you realize that Coach K and Roy Williams and SEVERAL other college coaches have charity organiaztions in their OWN name?! I can't imagine how you'd react to the "Tom Crean Charity Organization of Milwaukee!"
Coach K and Rick Pitino have their own frickin websites.
Ridiculous.
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...and is attacked for trying to raise cash for a soccer field...
He was attacked for calling a press conference to announce this donation...and rightfully so!
Thanks for reminding me.
Can you please show us and/or tell us how you know that Crean wanted to call the presser?
Thanks.
Common sense tells me that MU wanted to do the presser to promote the soccer stadium and use the Crean's generous donation to kick off the campaign.
That makes sense, right?
You won't get an answer....the most ridiculous thing is that he really believes that Crean called a press conference to promote his own donation....
You guys are clueless.
Hang on now... this shouldn't turn into a fight again. This has been a great thread, so let's keep up the good writing and insight.
The dollar value of the Crean's donation is tremendous... but MU would not be maximizing the true value of the donation without using such a generous gift to promote the soccer stadium and additional donations.
Therefore, MU (with Crean's input probably), called a press conference to promote the Crean's gift, and promote additional giving from other alumni.
It's a newsworthy story because not many (if any) other coaches are donating such large sums back to their university (and specifically another sport). The presser draws attention to the stadium and the need for donations. Tom Crean is MU's biggest celebrity, and biggest tool for promotion.
I'm really not sure why this doesn't seem to make sense to you.
PRN, I understand you think that Crean is a self-promoting a-hole... but honestly, the explanation I just provided above is far more likely than Crean demanding a presser to stroke his own ego.
I look forward to your perspective and insight.
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I think one of the issues with the soccer thing is that it was sold to us by people in the know on the Scout board as a "Major Annoucement at the Al"...
I think people were thinking major name assistant, new home and home series, etc etc. It just seemed oversold and mostly by the scout board folks.
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I encourage all of you to believe what you want. But do so with the knowledge that you're absolutely, 100 percent wrong.
This was a couple years ago. I'm betting he wouldn't make the same mistake again.
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I think one of the issues with the soccer thing is that it was sold to us by people in the know on the Scout board as a "Major Annoucement at the Al"...
I think people were thinking major name assistant, new home and home series, etc etc. It just seemed oversold and mostly by the scout board folks.
This is a fair criticism but I don't think that was Crean's call. Again, a poor execution by the administration.
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I think one of the issues with the soccer thing is that it was sold to us by people in the know on the Scout board as a "Major Annoucement at the Al"...
I think people were thinking major name assistant, new home and home series, etc etc. It just seemed oversold and mostly by the scout board folks.
I agree, it was oversold from the Scout people, but that's not Crean’s fault. I guess I could put on my Crean conspiracy theory hat for a moment, and say, "Crean told the Scout guys to promote his donation as a Major Announcement at the Al", but I have no evidence that ever occurred.
2002alum, I appreciate you trying to further the debate, but PRN has no insight or perspective to offer. We all know his position on Crean, as he has stated it over and over again. He has the right to that opinion, but let's stop pretending he holds insightful commentary.
Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).
What has been his response ... Let's see ... He ignored Pakuni request regarding assistant coaching salaries and fired back with the "You guys are clueless" comment when ask to produce evidence that Crean was the one who called the donation press conference.
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I encourage all of you to believe what you want. But do so with the knowledge that you're absolutely, 100 percent wrong.
This was a couple years ago. I'm betting he wouldn't make the same mistake again.
Hilarious. Just curious, was his mistake donating the money or the fact that MU held a press conference to announce it?
Maybe Crean should've annonymously given the $100k to Fr. Donnelly so that the press release could've read, "Long-time Western Civilization Professor Gives Boost to MU's New Soccer Stadium".....can you imagine the buzz and awareness for the fund raising campaign that would've created? They missed the boat.
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I think one of the issues with the soccer thing is that it was sold to us by people in the know on the Scout board as a "Major Annoucement at the Al"...
I think people were thinking major name assistant, new home and home series, etc etc. It just seemed oversold and mostly by the scout board folks.
2002alum, I appreciate you trying to further the debate, but PRN has no insight or perspective to offer. We all know his position on Crean, as he has stated it over and over again. He has the right to that opinion, but let's stop pretending he holds insightful commentary.
Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).
What has been his response ... Let's see ... He ignored Pakuni request regarding assistant coaching salaries and fired back with the "You guys are clueless" comment when ask to produce evidence that Crean was the one who called the donation press conference.
I agree, I'm just trying to offer up what I think is a rational explanation, and I'm interested why PRN (and or others) dismiss this explanation with no logical one to take it's place.
Honestly, I'm not trying to start a fight or harsh debate. The best part about this board is the free exchange of ideas and differing perspectives from fans/alumni.
I look forward to PRN's thoughts, and I hope it isn't just calling me clueless or saying that I can believe what I want.
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I think one of the issues with the soccer thing is that it was sold to us by people in the know on the Scout board as a "Major Annoucement at the Al"...
I think people were thinking major name assistant, new home and home series, etc etc. It just seemed oversold and mostly by the scout board folks.
So you got sold a bad bill of goods once from people other then Tom Crean and you hold it against our coach?
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Just wondering, what was meant by "coaching level" in the title of this thread?
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Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).
Evidence? Are you serious? Is there some burden of proof I need to meet? Laughable. If I felt like humoring you, I'd dig up "evidence," but for now just be assured that you are wrong and I am right.
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I think one of the issues with the soccer thing is that it was sold to us by people in the know on the Scout board as a "Major Annoucement at the Al"...
I think people were thinking major name assistant, new home and home series, etc etc. It just seemed oversold and mostly by the scout board folks.
2002alum, I appreciate you trying to further the debate, but PRN has no insight or perspective to offer. We all know his position on Crean, as he has stated it over and over again. He has the right to that opinion, but let's stop pretending he holds insightful commentary.
Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).
What has been his response ... Let's see ... He ignored Pakuni request regarding assistant coaching salaries and fired back with the "You guys are clueless" comment when ask to produce evidence that Crean was the one who called the donation press conference.
I agree, I'm just trying to offer up what I think is a rational explanation, and I'm interested why PRN (and or others) dismiss this explanation with no logical one to take it's place.
Honestly, I'm not trying to start a fight or harsh debate. The best part about this board is the free exchange of ideas and differing perspectives from fans/alumni.
I look forward to PRN's thoughts, and I hope it isn't just calling me clueless or saying that I can believe what I want.
you are interested in his thoughts? It's like talking to a fundimentalist christian about evolution. You can pound him on this message board and he'll ignore anything you say that has meaning and just tell you that you are wrong because of things you don't know but he does and you should believe him because he says so. I assumed he was someone older than me based on his anger about stuff that happened in the 80's but i just have a hard time shaking the idea that some child did a bunch of research and gets mad about it... then again that would imply that prn has done research.
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To address the point about not being genuine, I have heard that from people before. Here is what happened to me.
My family finished eating at a restaurant and as we were walking out we saw Joani, Lazar, a recruit, and the recruits father waiting for a table. When we got outside and were walking away from the entrance we saw Crean walking toward the door after parking his car. My boys said "hi coach" and we kept walking. Crean then says "Hey guys, come here. Let me introduce you to some people" So we go back inside with him to get introduced to everyone. He then walks away and comes back with some menus and has Lazar and the recruit sign autographs for my kids.
I would think that the last thing he is interested in when trying to convince a recruit to come to MU is making sure that my kids get introduced and get an autograph, but he did. So I am not really sure why I continue to hear that he is not genuine.
I am a firm believer that you can find out a lot about someone from who they married. In other words, if the spouse is cool and genuine then usually so is the other one. Not always, but usually I have found this to be the case.
Joanie is a class act so that speaks volumes to me about the sincerity and genuineness of her husband.
The guy had basically no father, is a self starter, definitely a type A in a big way....that turns off some people. So be it. I want that kind of guy running my country, running our military, running my company and running my basketball team. I'll take different kind of people running other things in life, but those are the types I want for those leadership positions.
you are insufferable
I haven't been involved with this at all but, than again, neither has tony. Why are you leaving a three word insulting post directed at someone who's pontificating about personality types? Are you mad at him for saying good people mary good people? Is it because your wife isn't cool?
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I encourage all of you to believe what you want. But do so with the knowledge that you're absolutely, 100 percent wrong.
This was a couple years ago. I'm betting he wouldn't make the same mistake again.
What if I told you that the University asked him to make the statement, invite the cameras, etc to help maximize the message. Now, he could have said no, but what if I told you he was going along with the university / department's wishes on this.
Does this change your opinion a little bit?
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To address the point about not being genuine, I have heard that from people before. Here is what happened to me.
My family finished eating at a restaurant and as we were walking out we saw Joani, Lazar, a recruit, and the recruits father waiting for a table. When we got outside and were walking away from the entrance we saw Crean walking toward the door after parking his car. My boys said "hi coach" and we kept walking. Crean then says "Hey guys, come here. Let me introduce you to some people" So we go back inside with him to get introduced to everyone. He then walks away and comes back with some menus and has Lazar and the recruit sign autographs for my kids.
I would think that the last thing he is interested in when trying to convince a recruit to come to MU is making sure that my kids get introduced and get an autograph, but he did. So I am not really sure why I continue to hear that he is not genuine.
I am a firm believer that you can find out a lot about someone from who they married. In other words, if the spouse is cool and genuine then usually so is the other one. Not always, but usually I have found this to be the case.
Joanie is a class act so that speaks volumes to me about the sincerity and genuineness of her husband.
The guy had basically no father, is a self starter, definitely a type A in a big way....that turns off some people. So be it. I want that kind of guy running my country, running our military, running my company and running my basketball team. I'll take different kind of people running other things in life, but those are the types I want for those leadership positions.
you are insufferable
I'm guessing that comment was for me....thanks Tony, as always.
I still love this one from you the most..."Coach Crean will be in McCovey's cove retrieving baseballs during the HR hitting contest. No boat, he will simply walk on the water. "
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Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).
Evidence? Are you serious? Is there some burden of proof I need to meet? Laughable. If I felt like humoring you, I'd dig up "evidence," but for now just be assured that you are wrong and I am right.
You're correct ... I should have never doubted your claims. Who needs facts when you have an argument as sound as "I'm right and you’re wrong." :-\
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I encourage all of you to believe what you want. But do so with the knowledge that you're absolutely, 100 percent wrong.
This was a couple years ago. I'm betting he wouldn't make the same mistake again.
What if I told you that the University asked him to make the statement, invite the cameras, etc to help maximize the message. Now, he could have said no, but what if I told you he was going along with the university / department's wishes on this.
Does this change your opinion a little bit?
Yes, it would change it a little bit, but my suspicious nature would still lead me to believe it was his idea. As I recall, at the time many people thought the same thing.
For the rest of you guys, Buzz Williams makes 200K, which is borderline outrageous for a first year assistant at a school crying poor 365 days a year.
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I'd say $200k is commensurate with Buzz Williams' experience and with the market value of coaches salaries....he makes about 1/8 of what Coach Crean makes...seems about right.
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I encourage all of you to believe what you want. But do so with the knowledge that you're absolutely, 100 percent wrong.
This was a couple years ago. I'm betting he wouldn't make the same mistake again.
What if I told you that the University asked him to make the statement, invite the cameras, etc to help maximize the message. Now, he could have said no, but what if I told you he was going along with the university / department's wishes on this.
Does this change your opinion a little bit?
Yes, it would change it a little bit, but my suspicious nature would still lead me to believe it was his idea. As I recall, at the time many people thought the same thing.
For the rest of you guys, Buzz Williams makes 200K, which is borderline outrageous for a first year assistant at a school crying poor 365 days a year.
Kevin O'Neill signed as an assistant this year with Arizona for $375,000. It's not outrageous what Buzz is getting considering he was also a head coach and has provided some excellent recruiting connections.
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I encourage all of you to believe what you want. But do so with the knowledge that you're absolutely, 100 percent wrong.
This was a couple years ago. I'm betting he wouldn't make the same mistake again.
What if I told you that the University asked him to make the statement, invite the cameras, etc to help maximize the message. Now, he could have said no, but what if I told you he was going along with the university / department's wishes on this.
Does this change your opinion a little bit?
Yes, it would change it a little bit, but my suspicious nature would still lead me to believe it was his idea. As I recall, at the time many people thought the same thing.
For the rest of you guys, Buzz Williams makes 200K, which is borderline outrageous for a first year assistant at a school crying poor 365 days a year.
My suspicious nature leads me to believe the moon landing was a hoax, the holocaust never happened, and Hillary Clinton is actually a homosexual man.
I guess I'll assume those to be fact and spread my knowledge to the ignorant and naive internet community. Thank you PRN... Thank you.
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Chicos --
You're equating Buzz Williams with Kevin O'Neill -- a former NBA head coach and the former head man at schools in the SEC, Big Ten and at Marquette -- a guy who was (originally) brought in as the successor to Lute? You're being disingenious because you know damn well that you were surprised to learn how much he was making. I remember when it came up.
By the way, does Arizona claim they need to play a certain amount of home games against crappy non-conference opponents to meet their budget?
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Does $200,000 = $375,000? Can one really compare the Athletic Departments of Arizona and Marquette and actually think that's an apples-to-apples comparison? Wow....keeps getting better.
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Chicos --
By the way, does Arizona claim they need to play a certain amount of home games against crappy non-conference opponents to meet their budget?
Concordia University, Northern Arizona, Missouri-Kansas City, Adams State College, Cal State Fullerton...
I'd say yes.
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This thread is out of control. The major objection I read is that some are critical of TC because, having given $100,000 to the soccer program, it was announced that he was generous enough to do it?
He is being criticized for giving back to the school and the school trying to stir up a little publicity for the soccer program? That $100,000 did more for the athletic program, specifically for the soccer program, than all that has ever been done for soccer in the past via donations.
Personally, I wish the guys was twins. Enjoy and appreciate what you have, naysayers, but I doubt that you can. Apparently, the previous 20-30 years of wandering in the desert has not developed your appreciation of the program's current high profile. Unbelievable.
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For the rest of you guys, Buzz Williams makes 200K, which is borderline outrageous for a first year assistant at a school crying poor 365 days a year.
That $200K figure is meaningless unless you can put it into the context of what other assistants at major conference schools are earning. Likewise, it fails to offer any credence to your claim that Marquette is forced to overpay its assistants.
At most it shows that MU is paying a high salary to one assistant coach who already has paid significant dividends in return. If it even qualifies as a high salary. Certainly nothing to indicate MU was "forced" to do it because of Tom Crean.
I
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Chicos --
You're equating Buzz Williams with Kevin O'Neill -- a former NBA head coach and the former head man at schools in the SEC, Big Ten and at Marquette -- a guy who was (originally) brought in as the successor to Lute? You're being disingenious because you know damn well that you were surprised to learn how much he was making. I remember when it came up.
By the way, does Arizona claim they need to play a certain amount of home games against crappy non-conference opponents to meet their budget?
I was just giving an example....and $200K is a FAR FAR cry from $375K...almost half. I don't think it's out of the realm at all.
I was damn well surprised at the amount, only because I sometimes harken back to my days there. But after thinking about it, my days were quite some time ago....9 years now. Back then the assists were probably around $80K to $100K if I had to guess. But with success comes a higher payroll.
But, if O'Neill doesn't float your boat....how about Craig Neal. Who...that's right, Craig Neal at New Mexico.
"Alford's top assistant coach at Iowa, Craig Neal, is coming with him to UNM. He will be paid $250,000 a year, more than twice any of McKay's assistant coaches made and more than twice what former head coach Dave Bliss was hired for in 1988."
http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2007/mar/24/lobos-coachs-salary-worth-wins-come/
If New Mexico is paying their assistant $250K, then I don't feel one bit upset about MU paying someone (with head coaching experience) $200K.
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OMG - ENOUGH ALREADY >:(
argue, argue, argue, nitpick, nitpick, nitpick ........ Can't we just appreciate what Crean has done for this program and for his generous donation to the soccer team??????? You all think the grass is greener on the other side..... Like him or not, he has done a great job of turning this program around ..
some people are never satisfied...... geez, this is going to be a long offseason...............
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OMG - ENOUGH ALREADY >:(
argue, argue, argue, nitpick, nitpick, nitpick ........ Can't we just appreciate what Crean has done for this program and for his generous donation to the soccer team??????? You all think the grass is greener on the other side..... Like him or not, he has done a great job of turning this program around ..
some people are never satisfied...... geez, this is going to be a long offseason...............
who is this 'you all'? i think it's only prn.
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Warriorette...I think there are just a few here that have trouble with him. Most realize the great job he's doing, the city is going to games like never before, we're getting good student athletes.....a lot of very good things going on right now and in the last 10 years. It's a great time to be a fan.
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OMG - ENOUGH ALREADY >:(
argue, argue, argue, nitpick, nitpick, nitpick ........ Can't we just appreciate what Crean has done for this program and for his generous donation to the soccer team??????? You all think the grass is greener on the other side..... Like him or not, he has done a great job of turning this program around ..
some people are never satisfied...... geez, this is going to be a long offseason...............
who is this 'you all'? i think it's only prn.
Well, he isn't the only one but he sure is at the top of the list.......Now I know why Nightmare is in his screen name ;)
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Yes, please. Crean has taken this program to places I never thought possible after having to stomach Majerus and Dukiet.
Also, enough of the guess who I know in the Athletic Dept that you don't talk. Jeez, lets cool the name dropping :)
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Warriorette...I think there are just a few here that have trouble with him. Most realize the great job he's doing, the city is going to games like never before, we're getting good student athletes.....a lot of very good things going on right now and in the last 10 years. It's a great time to be a fan.
And I certainly agree with you Chicos --
I understand that this is a message board and people are free to say what they want; however, if I were TC and read all this negativity and criticism, I would begin to wonder if I wouldn't be appreciated somewhere else.......
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I LOVE that we're now at 6 pages. Every time I see a new page begin past the standard 2 or 3 pages that most threads have I think of this brilliant Onion article:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930
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Chicos --
By the way, does Arizona claim they need to play a certain amount of home games against crappy non-conference opponents to meet their budget?
Concordia University, Northern Arizona, Missouri-Kansas City, Adams State College, Cal State Fullerton...
I'd say yes.
cal state fullerton is good though, they made the tourney. ::)
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Just one guy, and everyone has been using him as a PRNata. (pinata)
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Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).
Evidence? Are you serious? Is there some burden of proof I need to meet? Laughable. If I felt like humoring you, I'd dig up "evidence," but for now just be assured that you are wrong and I am right.
C'mon dude.
Respond to me directly.
I didn't ask for evidence, because I don't really have any either... I'm just asking for your realistic interpretation of the situation.
I'm not exactly sure how the whole donation thing plan was concocted, but my educated guess is that MU asked Coach Crean to be apart of the press conference to help promote his own generous donation as well as promote the campaign for more donations to the stadium.
I'm just not sure how you are coming to another conclusion as the one I'm talking about seems VERY, VERY likely.
Re-read my previous post, and just tell me what you think.
I'm not attacking you... I'm trying to give you a chance to offer up your solution. In the end we may not agree... but at least you can provide some actual perspective/insight rather than resorting to "believe what you want".
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I think one of the issues with the soccer thing is that it was sold to us by people in the know on the Scout board as a "Major Annoucement at the Al"...
I think people were thinking major name assistant, new home and home series, etc etc. It just seemed oversold and mostly by the scout board folks.
2002alum, I appreciate you trying to further the debate, but PRN has no insight or perspective to offer. We all know his position on Crean, as he has stated it over and over again. He has the right to that opinion, but let's stop pretending he holds insightful commentary.
Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).
What has been his response ... Let's see ... He ignored Pakuni request regarding assistant coaching salaries and fired back with the "You guys are clueless" comment when ask to produce evidence that Crean was the one who called the donation press conference.
I agree, I'm just trying to offer up what I think is a rational explanation, and I'm interested why PRN (and or others) dismiss this explanation with no logical one to take it's place.
Honestly, I'm not trying to start a fight or harsh debate. The best part about this board is the free exchange of ideas and differing perspectives from fans/alumni.
I look forward to PRN's thoughts, and I hope it isn't just calling me clueless or saying that I can believe what I want.
you are interested in his thoughts? It's like talking to a fundimentalist christian about evolution. You can pound him on this message board and he'll ignore anything you say that has meaning and just tell you that you are wrong because of things you don't know but he does and you should believe him because he says so. I assumed he was someone older than me based on his anger about stuff that happened in the 80's but i just have a hard time shaking the idea that some child did a bunch of research and gets mad about it... then again that would imply that prn has done research.
I know what you mean... but like I said, the best part of this board is the free exchange of ideas and thoughts.
Personally, I disagree with PRN 99% of the time, but that doesn't mean that we can't have an exchange of thoughts and theories in a respectful manner.
If PRN claims Crean isn't what he seems (specifically in this situation), then I'm interested in how he has come to this conclusion.
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If PRN claims Crean isn't what he seems (specifically in this situation), then I'm interested in how he has come to this conclusion.
He just doesn't like Crean and uses any situation to spin it so Crean comes out looking like a) the bad guy, b) a douchebag, or, c) both. Of course, he feels anyone who doesn't agree with him does exactly the same spin except they a) think he walks on water, b) blindly believe everything he says/does, or, c) both.
This will go on for the next 6 months with a little sprinkle of how cool Bruce Pearl is from 4ever. L'chaim!!
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"Personally, I disagree with PRN 99% of the time, but that doesn't mean that we can't have an exchange of thoughts and theories in a respectful manner.
If PRN claims Crean isn't what he seems (specifically in this situation), then I'm interested in how he has come to this conclusion."
I think Crean is really a woman. Are you interested in how I came to that conclusion?
Exchange of thoughts and theories is fine when you are talking about what defense we should have run at the end of the Stanford game or what types of players we should recruit. When you basically call someone dishonest and a shameless self-promoter without providing any evidence other than your suspicious mind, people have the right to call you on it. An opinion is based on facts. When you have no facts to support your opinion, I don't have to respect it. I don't respect the opinions of people that think God punished New Orleans or that man once rode around in T-Rex taxi cabs and I don't respect PRNs opinion on TCs motivations for holding that press conference.
The key to your first sentence is, "in a respectful manner." There is nothing respectful about attacking someone's personality traits and integrity without any substantial evidence to back it up. PRN is a big boy and I'm sure he knows what he is doing. I think we don't need to keep the kid gloves on when he starts going after TC.
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It took me a few days to make my way back here after the loss...and I find this mammoth of a thread. Just in case anybody is still reading this, I'll throw in my thoughts.
Let me start by laying out my situation. I am a student at MU. I have followed the team only since the Deane days and not closely until Crean was here. I do consider myself much more knowledgeable about our history than the average 20 y/o, but obviously I can't judge it like all the older posters can. I consider myself a hardcore dedicated fan, but I have no insider connections to the team, program, athletic dept, etc. I don't sit within earshot of the bench, I don't hang out with the team, and I'm not the mascot like TT. I have no special knowledge.
I usually look forward to posts by PRN and DKCL and sometimes 4ever. They are some of the most prominent posters who hold the minority view on Crean (especially) and other aspects of the program. It's nice to hear from the other side like that. However PRN, I think your latest posts have been pointless because you are being completely dismissive of any alternative ideas without explaining why.
I agree that Crean is not the greatest game coach. The way we have defended big men, the way he has subbed, etc. have left something to be desired. On the other hand, I don't know the whole situation. Maybe his players aren't getting the message in the huddle or practice, maybe they just can't execute when the whistle blows. Maybe the refs of a bad shooting day negate his strategy.
I obviously would like more size on this team. Once again, there might be more issues. I'm sure a year ago he expected we'd get more production from Barro/Blackledge/Burke/Mbakwe/Hazel/Saunders than we ended up getting. We are getting solid recruits. You'd have to be a voter to know, but I'm guessing Taylor and Williams got solid consideration for McD's AA. We were in the final 3 for Shumpert. It seems to me we are rising through the recruiting ranks, and one would have to assume we'll continue that rise. And if I have to choose, I'll take our current front court shortcomings over an injury away from not having a point guard.
I can't judge anything about player development. I think you have to be present at practice to really get a feel for how players are developing and what aspects of that can be attributed to player/assistant/Crean.
I don't see a problem with our assistant situation. Yes it would be nicer if they stuck around, but I have no problem with those guys moving on to bigger and better things. Maybe one day we'll be able to look at a Crean coaching tree like there have been Knight or Izzo trees. (Calm down. I said maybe.)
I love the reputation Crean has given our program. We are known for exciting basketball, graduating our players, no NCAA violations/arrests, and classy players. I think this is HUGE. I would take what we have right now rather than perennial top 10's/sweet 16's and beyond if we had a team like UC did under Huggins. And yes I genuinely mean that. I'd pass up a title right now if it came with a reputation of dirty play, criminal behavior, and laughable academic rates. I believe this program should represent this school, and I believe ours does wonderfully.
Maybe Crean is a self-promoter/full of himself. So what? As stated by others, what top level coach isn't? I don't care if he called the press conference himself to announce his soccer donation. It makes sense because the attention he draws is very valuable for that campaign. Just like the attention he draws to Al's Run. I'm not saying that's all him, but he does not hurt it at all. Also PRN you didn't quite answer Chico's question. What if you knew Crean had no input in the calling of that press conference? Is there anything negative about his actions in that case? I can't see how there could be.
To sum it all up, I am a very big fan of Crean. I love what he has done for our school and program. I love the idea of a long long term coach becoming a staple at Marquette and consistently building our program up. I think he has shown he has the potential to take our program to a championship level. I think he is improving each year. I think his shortcomings pale in comparison to the wonderful things he has done and continues to do.
I disagree that we'd be fine if he left. We are stable enough because we're in the BE and have that reputation, but we could easily be reduced to a USF/St. John's/DePaul level within a couple of years. I don't want to take a chance that we'd snag an ideal coach. I don't even know what coach we would look to as a step up from Crean who would see this place as a destination, not a stepping stone. I am happy to see that nobody is calling for him to leave. If all we have is 3 people saying they wouldn't mind if he left, I think I feel good about this board and our fan base.
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I think some people resent when the media tends to focus more on Crean than the team and university as a whole. Often it appears that we are the Crean Golden Eagles vs the Marquette Golden Eagles. For some reason the media has a fascination with Tom Crean and the Izzo/Harbaugh connections. They love his antics on the sidelines, his practices, his knowledge of the game, and his "legendary" preparation, you name it. Personally, I don't have an issue with Crean being an equal opportunity promoter of himself and our program. If he continues to have success, it shouldn't be an issue.
In the end, it comes down to basketball philosophy. I don't agree with his brand of basketball. It's that simple. Now, that's not to say that he isn't successful. Obviously, Crean's system works as or W/L record shows over the past 8 years, but for me, it's not the kind of basketball I tend to favor.
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In the end, it comes down to basketball philosophy. I don't agree with his brand of basketball. It's that simple. Now, that's not to say that he isn't successful. Obviously, Crean's system works as or W/L record shows over the past 8 years, but for me, it's not the kind of basketball I tend to favor.
That's a pretty fair statement.
I feel the same way about Bo Ryan. I fully realize he is a very good coach... but his teams just don't do anything for me.
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Yeah, I think some people are taking issue with Crean on a personal level and I think it's very unfair unless you really know him personally. I have met crean once and I don't think that qualifies me to speak about his character. However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.
In the end, the positives Crean brings to our program and his accomplishments are something that cannot be overlooked. That goes a long way today where perception is sometimes greater than reality. At this point, I can't think of anyone who is better for our program. Even if he was to leave, our program has a solid foundation for a new coach to come in and continue the success.
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However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.
And while he was late for that, at least he made it, he was a no-show at the B&G Outing which caused a little scene.
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However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.
And while he was late for that, at least he made it, he was a no-show at the B&G Outing which caused a little scene.
These last two posts only confirm my long-running suspicion that most of those unhappy with Tom Crean's tenure feel that way because he's failed to properly kiss their rear ends.
By nearly all accounts, Crean has been a fantastic ambassador for MU. I have no personal experiences with the man, but I've read dozens of accounts here about him going well out of his way to make team/university supports feel welcome. If he misses a function now and again because he's doing his real job or dresses like a - gasp! - basketball coach on occasion, big freakin' deal.
By the way, have we set the record for longest MU Scoop thread yet?
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However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.
And while he was late for that, at least he made it, he was a no-show at the B&G Outing which caused a little scene.
These last two posts only confirm my long-running suspicion that most of those unhappy with Tom Crean's tenure feel that way because he's failed to properly kiss their rear ends.
By nearly all accounts, Crean has been a fantastic ambassador for MU. I have no personal experiences with the man, but I've read dozens of accounts here about him going well out of his way to make team/university supports feel welcome. If he misses a function now and again because he's doing his real job or dresses like a - gasp! - basketball coach on occasion, big freakin' deal.
By the way, have we set the record for longest MU Scoop thread yet?
Ding ding ding ding. Or didn't have a beer with them at Turners after the game like Mike Deane did.
Part of it is a "Milwaukee thing" where they expect their coaches to be in the Doug Moe, Mike Deane...one of the guys mold. Crean is a bit more polished then what some of Milwaukeans are used to so they call it "fake", but he's no different then many coaches in bigger cities who are used to having to deal with all the nonsense.
The group from previous teams in the 1970's is another issue. Kiss they ring or feel their wrath. Do it how it used to be done or be questioned on it. At MU it's not only hard to follow a legend, it's hard to follow a legend 30 years later.
Meanwhile in addition to the New Mexico assistant making $250K and O'Neill making $375K I've since found a few more without much trouble on Google.
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I think Mbakwe's thread was at least 7, if not 8 pages long.
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But for me, it's not personal and my comments were somewhat tongue and cheek. If you read my comments I was trying to make the point that I don't have any basis to judge crean on a personal level, other than I thought he should have been on time and wore proper attire to an event like the Tip Off luncheon. I guess he was recruiting Shumpert that day and as we all know traffic on the Eisenhower is awful, so he was late. But that's not the issue for me. I don't feel slighted personally. For me its all about hoops. All the outside things don't really matter. First and foremost, he's a coach. I'm just at odds with the Crean system for the most part for a number of reasons. But like I said, I can't argue with his success. He gets through to the kids and they produce on the floor.
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Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach?
It's not the Whitefish Bay Rotary club, it's a collection of two major donor groups.
No one is asking for butt kissing but rather the courtesy of showing up period, relatively on time (Chicago traffic) and with some impression that you'd like to be there. These are both summer events planned by the University. They can (or should) be planned around recruiting black out periods, camps etc.
As for the Turners comment, while many loved the fact our coach would close the bar with us, we were all smart enough to know that the long-term effects of that practice were not too good. We may be dumb, hick Milwaukeeans or Chicagoans, but we're not that dumb. We are hicks though...we love rumpled Doug Moe...he's so real!!
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However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.
And while he was late for that, at least he made it, he was a no-show at the B&G Outing which caused a little scene.
These last two posts only confirm my long-running suspicion that most of those unhappy with Tom Crean's tenure feel that way because he's failed to properly kiss their rear ends.
By nearly all accounts, Crean has been a fantastic ambassador for MU. I have no personal experiences with the man, but I've read dozens of accounts here about him going well out of his way to make team/university supports feel welcome. If he misses a function now and again because he's doing his real job or dresses like a - gasp! - basketball coach on occasion, big freakin' deal.
By the way, have we set the record for longest MU Scoop thread yet?
Ding ding ding ding. Or didn't have a beer with them at Turners after the game like Mike Deane did.
Part of it is a "Milwaukee thing" where they expect their coaches to be in the Doug Moe, Mike Deane...one of the guys mold. Crean is a bit more polished then what some of Milwaukeans are used to so they call it "fake", but he's no different then many coaches in bigger cities who are used to having to deal with all the nonsense.
That is so ridiculous, but so true. Ah, Milwaukee can't handle the class!
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Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach?
No one is asking for butt kissing but rather the courtesy of showing up period, relatively on time (Chicago traffic) and with some impression that you'd like to be there. These are both summer events planned by the University. They can (or should) be planned around recruiting black out periods, camps etc.
I'm inclined to agree... however I've never worked in the athletic department or walked a mile in a coach's shoes. I can only imagine that EVERYBODY is wants him everywhere all of the time.
PLUS: Let's say he sacrifices a recruiting trip to a 7'5" stud to make sure he is on time for a luncheon. If we miss out on a recruit, people will BLAST him for not landing a big man.
I'm just saying, a coach is damned either way most of the time.
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So it sounds like TC goes out of his way to reach out to the average joe fan but doesn't pander to the important alumni donors.
Wow, what an ass. Sounds fake to me. ;)
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Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach?
No one is asking for butt kissing but rather the courtesy of showing up period, relatively on time (Chicago traffic) and with some impression that you'd like to be there. These are both summer events planned by the University. They can (or should) be planned around recruiting black out periods, camps etc.
I'm inclined to agree... however I've never worked in the athletic department or walked a mile in a coaches shoes. I can only imagine that EVERYBODY is wants him everywhere all of the time.
PLUS: Let's say he sacrifices a recruiting trip to a 7'5" stud to make sure he is on time for a luncheon. If we miss out on a recruit, people will BLAST him for not landing a big man.
I'm just saying, a coach is damned either way most of the time.
Why would these two events be planned within recruiting periods?
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Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach?
No one is asking for butt kissing but rather the courtesy of showing up period, relatively on time (Chicago traffic) and with some impression that you'd like to be there. These are both summer events planned by the University. They can (or should) be planned around recruiting black out periods, camps etc.
I'm inclined to agree... however I've never worked in the athletic department or walked a mile in a coaches shoes. I can only imagine that EVERYBODY is wants him everywhere all of the time.
PLUS: Let's say he sacrifices a recruiting trip to a 7'5" stud to make sure he is on time for a luncheon. If we miss out on a recruit, people will BLAST him for not landing a big man.
I'm just saying, a coach is damned either way most of the time.
Why would these two events be planned within recruiting periods?
My guess (and Chico's can probably speak to this better) is that there really isn't an "offseason" for coaches anymore. I would bet the calender is pretty full.
These events are probably planned on those particular weekends because it works for MU, Fr. Wild, the venue, Crean, etc. Trying to balance all of the schedules is a challenge, I'm sure.
I'm not saying what you are proposing is impossible (certainly anything is possible), it's just my best guess that Coach Crean is on the run the majority of the year... so logistical challenges/issues are always going to come up.
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Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach?
Of course they're important, and I suspect Tom Crean believes they're important. That's why - to my knowledge - his absence at one particular event, or lateness at another, are exceptions to the rule. I'm not aware of him skipping out on these events regularly, but then again, I don't often rub elbows with the "major donors," so maybe I'm wrong. Am I?
Assuming otherwise though, I'm not going to rip the guy for missing a single event when I don't even know why he missed it. For all I know, he had a darned good reason. If I were to learn that he skipped it because he scored seats behind the dugout at Wrigley, then I'd question it (especially because it may be an indicator of Cubs loyalty ... yuck). But otherwise, if it's not a recurring problem and he presumably had a good reason to miss it, I don't think it's a big deal. A college head coach has many important responsibilities and sucking up to donors - while not entirely trivial - shouldn't rank too high on the list.
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For the record, I have no desire or need to have my ass kissed.
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I've heard point blank some MU alumni say "he's not Midwestern enough". To which I laughed...the guy is from Michigan, what the hell do you want.
At any rate, some people believe the coach in charge has to be from the state or a "MU" guy or whatever. I see this all the time at UCLA and USC with some of their alumns. Kentucky and IU were so guility of it as well.
It's only some people, but it's surprising. Don't these people just want to win? Who gives a crap if they grew up in the city and or are from another part of the country or talk a little faster. Win, graduate your players, keep out of trouble with the NCAA and I'm a happy camper.
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Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much. Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.
In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things? Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)
We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance?
Weren't we 5th in operating budget? Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.
Why are we looking up at Xavier?
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Win, graduate your players, keep out of trouble with the NCAA and I'm a happy camper.
Amen, Chicos, amen. I don't think a lot of folks know how difficult it is to do those three things simultaneously. I couldn't be any more proud of our program. Well, i guess I could be more proud if we go to the Final Four again, but ......
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Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much. Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.
In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things? Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)
We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance?
Weren't we 5th in operating budget? Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.
Why are we looking up at Xavier?
Looking up at Xavier.....haha.
If Marquette was playing in the Atlantic 10 (which they will be in its glorified version in 8 years) the uproar from folks would be deafening.
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Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much. Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.
In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things? Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)
We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance?
Weren't we 5th in operating budget? Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.
Why are we looking up at Xavier?
What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.
The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?
Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.
Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.
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Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much. Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.
In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things? Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)
We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance?
Weren't we 5th in operating budget? Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.
Why are we looking up at Xavier?
What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.
The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?
Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.
Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.
+1
Because to use this logic we are "better" than these programs
Arizona
Kentucky
UCONN
Duke
Etc. It's kind of silly. Some people want to put 100% on the NCAA tournament. To each their own. I divide things into three. Non conference, conference, post season.
In other words, if we had a crappy non-conference and conference season but somehow won the Big East tournament and got to the second round, is that the same as what we did this year? Not even close, but some want to judge on NCAA tournament only. Give me Wisconsin's NCAA opponents and we'd be in the Elite 8 as well. Hell, give me Wisconsin's Big Ten Schedule and we would have a 3 seed also, but that's not how it works.
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Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much. Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.
In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things? Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)
We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance?
Weren't we 5th in operating budget? Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.
Why are we looking up at Xavier?
What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.
The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?
Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.
Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.
XU has been much more consistent than we have the past 8 years (when TC' started to get his own players). Since 2001 they've been in 7 of 8 NCAAs, 3 2nd Rounds + a Sweet 16 + an Elite 8. That's 5 seasons of progress in the NCAAs. Just b/c we're in the Maui Invite or the GAS that doesn't mean we're better.
Don't get me wrong, this was a pretty good year and the NCAA loss to me is a wash. IMO once you get to the 2nd round it's all about match ups etc. We lost in OT to a really good team. But look at the season, we ranked up our usual 8 wins vs cupcakes (I know everyone plays them but if you use the wins measurement these must be discounted) and then we had a slightly worst conf record (pct wise) than last year even though we returned every major contributor and all 5 starters. We did make progress in the BET and the NCAA so that is really good to see.
But look to next year, why should we believe we'll finish any better than 6th again? We're going to lose our best player (at least everyone on Scout concedes this) and we don't add a true PG.
What are my expectations...I guess Coach Crean has met them (be relevant) but my mission in life is the fans realize that we still could improve. People act like this program is a national force just b/c we're in the Maui or the GAS. I guess I'd trade that stuff for playing on the 2nd weekend of the Dance more than ONCE in 9 years. It's great that Jay Bilas LOVES Tom Crean but rather than a glowing article in December I'd like to not get embarrassed on the road consectuatively @West Va, @UL & @UConn by a team that has nearly 200 starts in it's starting 5.
Look. I'm rambling, I'll admit, I just think given all the resources MU Hoops now has, it can do better. IMO Xavier is living proof of that.
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PS...I have West Va in my pool but just explained to my wife that I am sort of cheering for XU to support my MUscoop arguement..she reminded me how much of a dork I am now, taking a message board arguement over my own pool. MUScoop is in my kitchen. I need help.
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PS...I have West Va in my pool but just explained to my wife that I am sort of cheering for XU to support my MUscoop arguement..she reminded me how much of a dork I am now, taking a message board arguement over my own pool. MUScoop is in my kitchen. I need help.
That's funny. My wife won't say it, but she feels the same way.
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DKCL, I think you are right that we can do better, and I think we will. Right now we are a pretty good team, but I think we get even better during the next decade. We got a huge monkey off our back this year and I think we'll build on that.
How do you think we'll do in the coming years???
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Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much. Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.
In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things? Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)
We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance?
Weren't we 5th in operating budget? Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.
Why are we looking up at Xavier?
What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.
The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?
Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.
Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.
XU has been much more consistent than we have the past 8 years (when TC' started to get his own players). Since 2001 they've been in 7 of 8 NCAAs, 3 2nd Rounds + a Sweet 16 + an Elite 8. That's 5 seasons of progress in the NCAAs. Just b/c we're in the Maui Invite or the GAS that doesn't mean we're better.
Don't get me wrong, this was a pretty good year and the NCAA loss to me is a wash. IMO once you get to the 2nd round it's all about match ups etc. We lost in OT to a really good team. But look at the season, we ranked up our usual 8 wins vs cupcakes (I know everyone plays them but if you use the wins measurement these must be discounted) and then we had a slightly worst conf record (pct wise) than last year even though we returned every major contributor and all 5 starters. We did make progress in the BET and the NCAA so that is really good to see.
But look to next year, why should we believe we'll finish any better than 6th again? We're going to lose our best player (at least everyone on Scout concedes this) and we don't add a true PG.
What are my expectations...I guess Coach Crean has met them (be relevant) but my mission in life is the fans realize that we still could improve. People act like this program is a national force just b/c we're in the Maui or the GAS. I guess I'd trade that stuff for playing on the 2nd weekend of the Dance more than ONCE in 9 years. It's great that Jay Bilas LOVES Tom Crean but rather than a glowing article in December I'd like to not get embarrassed on the road consectuatively @West Va, @UL & @UConn by a team that has nearly 200 starts in it's starting 5.
Look. I'm rambling, I'll admit, I just think given all the resources MU Hoops now has, it can do better. IMO Xavier is living proof of that.
I see your point on Xavier and it is valid, but I still don't think we are looking up at them. If you use the NCAAs as your only criteria, then a lot of powerhouse programs are looking up at Xavier. It just doesn't pass the smell test. You said it yourself, once you get past the 2nd round it is all about matchups. That is not to diminish the performance of Xavier. They are a legit top 25 program. I just think, all things considered, there program is not overall better than ours. Am I biased? Yes, but I am sure there are many others who would agree with me.
I also agree that we can get better. I don't think anyone here is content with never advancing past the second round again. I am just trying to stay realistic and I thing if we keep doing what we are doing, those tourney wins will come. It matters that TC got us to a final four once and that we have now made the tourney 3 straight years. I think he is continuing to improve as a coach and our program is also improving. Now, as I have said before, if he plateaus and it is clear that we are not able to take the next step, then we may want to look for a new coach. I think we are a long way from that point.
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I'm not in any way looking for a new coach...I just hope our current one understand he can do better. Hiring an old sage type asst might help.
XU is more than just a NCAA tourney cinderella their SOS was 4 spots behind us. Their recent regular seasons have out shown us.
And, look at their opponent, West Va: 2 Sweet 16s, Elite 8 & NIT Champ. Why can these schools with seemingly less resources, less tradition and worse recruiting areas be out doing us?
I agree the 3 NCAAs is fantastic, a huge huge milestone, I just hope we can build on it.
Bottomline is everyone perceives XU as worst off than us but with 7 of 8 NCAAs, two Elite 8s and 3 more 2nd Rds, ho has had the better decade? We seem to get caught up in the PR of glowing Jay Bilas articles and fawning praise from Seth Davis.
BTW, 60% of me is only arguing to get this to 8 pages. ;)
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XU has two significant advantages over MU. Their own new on campus arena. A softer conference in which to get a great seed in the NCAA tournament.
They get 2 or 3 conference losses and end up with 3 seeds. My guess is they finish with 6 or 7 losses in the Big East and would get about a 5 or 6 seed.
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Please don't use the argument that Xavier's soft conference allows them to advance further in the Tourney. This just makes us sound like a bunch of pissers and moaners. BTW, if I recall correctly MU was a 3 seed in 2003 having played in that kitten Conference USA.
Facts are Xavier is having a terrific season and have had a better NCAA record than MU as of late. Give them their due. They also have this year's version of "coach du jour." Sorry if Sean Miller has stolen TC's thunder.
And, yes we are looking up at them because the last time I looked, the Musketeers are playing again on Saturday and Tom's team will be busy washing out their jockstraps.
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Please don't use the argument that Xavier's soft conference allows them to advance further in the Tourney. This just makes us sound like a bunch of pissers and moaners. BTW, if I recall correctly MU was a 3 seed in 2003 having played in that kitten Conference USA.
Facts are Xavier is having a terrific season and have had a better NCAA record than MU as of late. Give them their due. They also have this year's version of "coach du jour." Sorry if Sean Miller has stolen TC's thunder.
And, yes we are looking up at them because the last time I looked, the Musketeers are playing again on Saturday and Tom's team will be busy washing out their jockstraps.
That's right....and when MU was a 3 how far did they go? Odds are, if you are a 1-4 seed, you're going to go farther than if you're 5-9 (and don't say it's only because they are better teams...that's not always true...MU in the Big Ten or A-10 this year would have done just as well at Wisconsin-madison or Xavier). Seeding and matchups are EVERYTHING in the NCAA tournament. Absolutely everything. You get a breeze game in round 1 and get to play a team that had to fight in round 2. It means everything (but for the record, I do think Xavier is ahead of us).
I'm just glad Duke, Kentucky, Gonzaga, Vanderbilt, USC, Indiana, BYU, Notre Dame, UNLV and others are looking up to us since they were washing their jockstraps while we were still playing.
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Please don't use the argument that Xavier's soft conference allows them to advance further in the Tourney. This just makes us sound like a bunch of pissers and moaners. BTW, if I recall correctly MU was a 3 seed in 2003 having played in that kitten Conference USA.
Facts are Xavier is having a terrific season and have had a better NCAA record than MU as of late. Give them their due. They also have this year's version of "coach du jour." Sorry if Sean Miller has stolen TC's thunder.
And, yes we are looking up at them because the last time I looked, the Musketeers are playing again on Saturday and Tom's team will be busy washing out their jockstraps.
MU was in that kitten Conference USA in 2003 which probably gave us a few more wins in conf. than we would have had in the BE which allowed us to get a higher seed. You are making Chico's point.
No one said Xavier isn't having a great season.
Finally, if the only reason we are looking up at them is because they are playing and we are not, then we are also looking up at Western Kentucky, Davidson, and Washington State. And guess what. Duke, UCONN, Arizona, and GTown are looking up at them too.
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College basketball success can be judged in different ways. For me, winning in March, aka the post season , is the standard of success I prefer to use.
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Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much. Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.
In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things? Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)
We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance?
Weren't we 5th in operating budget? Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.
Why are we looking up at Xavier?
What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.
The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?
Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.
Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.
XU has been much more consistent than we have the past 8 years (when TC' started to get his own players). Since 2001 they've been in 7 of 8 NCAAs, 3 2nd Rounds + a Sweet 16 + an Elite 8. That's 5 seasons of progress in the NCAAs. Just b/c we're in the Maui Invite or the GAS that doesn't mean we're better.
Don't get me wrong, this was a pretty good year and the NCAA loss to me is a wash. IMO once you get to the 2nd round it's all about match ups etc. We lost in OT to a really good team. But look at the season, we ranked up our usual 8 wins vs cupcakes (I know everyone plays them but if you use the wins measurement these must be discounted) and then we had a slightly worst conf record (pct wise) than last year even though we returned every major contributor and all 5 starters. We did make progress in the BET and the NCAA so that is really good to see.
But look to next year, why should we believe we'll finish any better than 6th again? We're going to lose our best player (at least everyone on Scout concedes this) and we don't add a true PG.
What are my expectations...I guess Coach Crean has met them (be relevant) but my mission in life is the fans realize that we still could improve. People act like this program is a national force just b/c we're in the Maui or the GAS. I guess I'd trade that stuff for playing on the 2nd weekend of the Dance more than ONCE in 9 years. It's great that Jay Bilas LOVES Tom Crean but rather than a glowing article in December I'd like to not get embarrassed on the road consectuatively @West Va, @UL & @UConn by a team that has nearly 200 starts in it's starting 5.
Look. I'm rambling, I'll admit, I just think given all the resources MU Hoops now has, it can do better. IMO Xavier is living proof of that.
In this case, I think I agree with you.
I'd say my expectations are rising... by I'm still patient because I like the direction of the program.
Given what I have seen from MU, I still think the program is getting better. If MU had just lost the stanford game with a roster loaded with seniors and a sub-par recruiting class coming in, I'd be much more upset.
But, given MU's current roster, and relatively short renaissance (still have only been in the BEAST for 3 seasons), I would say that the program is still gaining momentum. MU might not get better EVERY season... but the overall performance levels are still on the rise. I think H. Sugar had a great post about this in a previous thread.
PS Everybody, when you have your cereal tomorrow morning, please check your milk cartons for Puertoricannightmare's picture.
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College basketball success can be judged in different ways. For me, winning in March, aka the post season , is the standard of success I prefer to use.
Nothing really wrong with that... but let's be honest... you are going to be disappointed almost every season, no matter what school you are a fan of.
There is only 1 champ.
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BTW, 60% of me is only arguing to get this to 8 pages. ;)
Trevor Mbakwe knows where you sleep.
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XU has two significant advantages over MU. Their own new on campus arena. A softer conference in which to get a great seed in the NCAA tournament.
They get 2 or 3 conference losses and end up with 3 seeds. My guess is they finish with 6 or 7 losses in the Big East and would get about a 5 or 6 seed.
SOS MU #20, XU #24...seems to be like we played essentially the same schedule. Out of 319 some schools, that's statistically even.
And I didn't cite XU b/c they were in the Sweet 16 (now the Elite 8) this season, I cited them b/c they have been in 7 of the last 8 tourney's, have won at least a game 5 times and are Jesuit in an undesirable Midwestern city.
Finally, I thought the Big East was a value not a burden? Shouldn't XU's recruiting be hurt by their lower profile, weaker conf?
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XU has two significant advantages over MU. Their own new on campus arena. A softer conference in which to get a great seed in the NCAA tournament.
They get 2 or 3 conference losses and end up with 3 seeds. My guess is they finish with 6 or 7 losses in the Big East and would get about a 5 or 6 seed.
SOS MU #20, XU #24...seems to be like we played essentially the same schedule. Out of 319 some schools, that's statistically even.
And I didn't cite XU b/c they were in the Sweet 16 (now the Elite 8) this season, I cited them b/c they have been in 7 of the last 8 tourney's, have won at least a game 5 times and are Jesuit in an undesirable Midwestern city.
Finally, I thought the Big East was a value not a burden? Shouldn't XU's recruiting be hurt by their lower profile, weaker conf?
Big East is a value to get into the tournament, a burden to get a top seed.
Xavier's non-conference SOS was 15. MU's was 134. Xavier, thus, cleaned up in their league and in the last 15 games because of their schedule while MU was having to slug it out with 6 top 30 teams...Xavier had to play NONE.
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i just want post in this thread
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Good work Chili...we'll get 8 pages with help like yours. Heck I may start argueing against myself if it gets us to 8 pages.
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Please don't use the argument that Xavier's soft conference allows them to advance further in the Tourney. This just makes us sound like a bunch of pissers and moaners. BTW, if I recall correctly MU was a 3 seed in 2003 having played in that kitten Conference USA.
Xavier's high seed allows them to advance farther in the Tourney.
Their soft conference gives them the record that enables them to get a high seed.
That's the way it is. Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, Drake all get the same benefit of running up a good record by playing in a weak conference. Their seed gives them a better opportunity to win early round games in the NCAA tournament. That's not pissing and moaning--that's just basic fact.
MU could easily duplicate the effort--we could petition to join the Summit or the Horizon, win 14 to 16 conference games each year, and we'd regularly get 3 seeds just like Xavier or Butler or Drake or Gonzaga--and we wouldn't have to play any better than we do to finish 5th in the Big East.
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84, could TC recruit as well in the A10? We've heard how the Big East has been great for MU recruiting. Would we roll up that many wins in the A10? Would we play such a stronger non conf and would we win those? Our SOS is nearly identical to XU's...I don't think they're a product of a soft sked, if they are, then we are too.
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84, could TC recruit as well in the A10? We've heard how the Big East has been great for MU recruiting. Would we roll up that many wins in the A10? Would we play such a stronger non conf and would we win those? Our SOS is nearly identical to XU's...I don't think they're a product of a soft sked, if they are, then we are too.
I don't think that's what 84 was getting at.
Xavier's position allows them to go out and play a tougher non-conference to make-up for the lack of conference strength, same as Memphis. With that they can play those tougher games early on, and coast into the easier play. Whether or not having tougher games up front and be rested for the tournament is good or not. Crean's teams have died off at the end of the season, maybe that would be good.
All in all, I'd still rather be in the Big East for one reason, Exposure.
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I like the idea of adding an "old sage" type assistant. And can we get somebody to develop bigs specifically again? Please? I think that would be huge for this program.
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Can we you imagine the screaming from some people if our home schedule was Fordham, St. Bonaventure, George Washington, Temple and Duquesne instead of Louisville, Pitt, Gtown, etc.? Somehow I don't think Xavier and Dayton have quite the impact of those games.
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Can we you imagine the screaming from some people if our home schedule was Fordham, St. Bonaventure, George Washington, Temple and Duquesne instead of Louisville, Pitt, Gtown, etc.? Somehow I don't think Xavier and Dayton have quite the impact of those games.
But Ecompt, that's the only way we're going to get a high seed. The Big East is too tough for us.
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I like the idea of adding an "old sage" type assistant. And can we get somebody to develop bigs specifically again? Please? I think that would be huge for this program.
Haven't we had a couple of those? Jerry Sichting and that other former NBA guy? I hate to add fuel to PRN's fire, but "been there, done that."
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Can we you imagine the screaming from some people if our home schedule was Fordham, St. Bonaventure, George Washington, Temple and Duquesne instead of Louisville, Pitt, Gtown, etc.? Somehow I don't think Xavier and Dayton have quite the impact of those games.
But Ecompt, that's the only way we're going to get a high seed. The Big East is too tough for us.
;D THE ONLY WAY...nope. Yes, I saw the sarcasm font.
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College basketball success can be judged in different ways. For me, winning in March, aka the post season , is the standard of success I prefer to use.
So, then, your boy Bruce must really be a disappointment this season. And before that. :'(
Pearl is not so good in the SEC Tournament (1 win in 3 years). Was a 2 seed that needed a last second Lofton shot to beat Winthrop and then lost to Wichita State a couple of years ago and then choked out that massive lead to Ohio State last season.
Add to that, the struggle to shake American and the near blowing of the lead against Butler but hanging on overtime which served only to delay the inevitable by 4 days.
The Volunteers looked shaken from the start. When that happens to Marquette, it's the coach's fault.
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Coobey, why did it take you so long to post? If you remember correctly going back to the night UT beat Memphis was that I liked Pearl as a coach and the style of ball he teaches. Check back to the posts, you'll also see where I said his team was not my pick to win it all. They didn't have enough.
To be honest, this season's Vols team underachieved by one game in the Tourney. I had them going out vs. UNC in the Elite 8. FYI, UT has a very good class coming in next season led by Woolridge, a kid Tom is well acquainted with.
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Coobey, why did it take you so long to post? If you remember correctly going back to the night UT beat Memphis was that I liked Pearl as a coach and the style of ball he teaches. Check back to the posts, you'll also see where I said his team was not my pick to win it all. They didn't have enough.
To be honest, this season's Vols team underachieved by one game in the Tourney. I had them going out vs. UNC in the Elite 8. FYI, UT has a very good class coming in next season led by Woolridge, a kid Tom is well acquainted with.
As I thought, you feel Pearl was a disappointment and ultimately unsuccessful given his talent.
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BTW, 60% of me is only arguing to get this to 8 pages. ;)
Trevor Mbakwe knows where you sleep.
Trevor's time has come and gone, Crean's Coaching Level is the "I Love Lamp" of Spring 2008
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Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).
Evidence? Are you serious? Is there some burden of proof I need to meet? Laughable. If I felt like humoring you, I'd dig up "evidence," but for now just be assured that you are wrong and I am right.
C'mon dude.
Respond to me directly.
I didn't ask for evidence, because I don't really have any either... I'm just asking for your realistic interpretation of the situation.
I'm not exactly sure how the whole donation thing plan was concocted, but my educated guess is that MU asked Coach Crean to be apart of the press conference to help promote his own generous donation as well as promote the campaign for more donations to the stadium.
I'm just not sure how you are coming to another conclusion as the one I'm talking about seems VERY, VERY likely.
Re-read my previous post, and just tell me what you think.
I'm not attacking you... I'm trying to give you a chance to offer up your solution. In the end we may not agree... but at least you can provide some actual perspective/insight rather than resorting to "believe what you want".
At the risk of starting a crapping exchange...
PRN, I still haven't seen you post your theory on the subject of Crean's presser.
I realize you think he is an a-hole, I'm just curious how you make the jump to "he call's his own pressers to promote himself".
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Basically, he's not a very likable guy and I would love it if he accepted another job.
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Who do you want to get to replace him? It seems some people complain a lot without offering any solutions.
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We've never had a problem attracting coaching candidates...ever. Kevin O'Neill was one of the hottest assistant coaches in the country when he took over. Deane was something of a hot commodity. Heck, even Bob Dukiet was one of the most highly regarded coaches in the country.
We'd be fine if Crean left.
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Wow, Deane and Dukiet???? you really must have your head up your ass. Crean is doing a great job at Marquette. It is a tough sell, urban, catholic campus in a frigid city. give me a break. just look down the road to Chicago and see how easy it has been for DePaul.
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Hey check it out - Crean must have read scoop!
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don't forget this one for yuks.... some gems in this one
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20524.0
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Some 5 year Hoopin'. Impressive.
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This time of year both my MU bball obsession and the time between games are too much
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Again, when I say I wouldn't be upset if he left, I'm not advocating dismissing him by any means. That's insanity! But if took another job it wouldn't bother me at all.
Amen. And why do people always think we'd hire Deane II or Dukiet II, why couldn't we just hire KO II or TC II?
Because there are alot more Deanes and Dukiets out there than KOs and TCs. By the way KO II would be a step down from TC by any measure you want to use. In fact, any coach since Al is a step below Crean. Why not just keep Crean I around instead of hoping for Crean II.
The wisdom of MUSF. A retrospective.
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How do you get on this e-mail list?
Favre retired and the sun came up the next day. If Crean bolts, we'd be just fine. Just think maybe we'll attract someone even more capable. I mean, is that even a possibility? Yeah, Tom's been here 9 seasons, but he's not the Second Coming. He'll be a much better coach at his next gig. Has been learning on the job here and slowly at that.
I agree with Rican. Talent level overall is subpar for a power conference like the BE. Maybe Tom's a better coach than I think. Has a knack for rubbing some the wrong way. Not believable when listening to him. Would make a great used car salesman, though. In summary, doesn't float my boat.
4ever. Insight. A more accurate retrospective.
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He was attacked for calling a press conference to announce this donation...and rightfully so!
Thanks for reminding me.
Nightmare
Has he cut the first check yet?
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keefe, it may be time for a break.
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I'm a 1970 Engineering grad and a very long time season ticket holder.
I had the pleasure of knowing Coaches Al and Ric personally.
I believe what made Coach Al "special" was his ability to control his team, change with the times, (accommodating the Black Athletics within the civil rights movement and early NBA signing),
and being an entertainer. He also brought a sense of professionalism to the college coaching.
He also had a great relationship with the students and alumni.
Coach Crean was just different. He "required" loyalty from the students and alumni but gave "little" in return.
Even though he and the AD discontinued the very popular Tip Off Club, I attended most basketball luncheons and banquets. I'd ask him questions regarding upcoming important games against the Badgers or ND. He always respond in generalities like: we need to get bigger, faster, and stronger". dah.
With all that said, I believe that he was a good recruiter, and a decent bench coach. Yet he is weird.
BB
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C'mon Page 9 of this soon-to-be epic thread!
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C'mon Page 9 of this soon-to-be epic thread!
9? Why limit ourselves!
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What's up?