MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Goose on April 10, 2024, 05:24:06 PM
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I think this is a very important offseason and next recruiting class for Shaka. The last three years have been building the foundation and it is time to build off of that. I do not think you can count on catching lightning in a bottle, like Shaka did with Omax, TK and Oso, and the level of HS players and/or portal guys need to continue to get better.
Part of the beauty of the last three years was having guys we watched grow up and improve at crazy levels. Now, I love Shaka, but I do not believe he has Oso and TK type of improvement magic in his back pocket. The program is now at a fork in the road, and I am anxious to see if it Shaka sticks with his plan.
To be honest, the last two years were an unreal feel good story and we sucked every ounce out of it. IMO, we need to up the recruiting and at least dabble in the portal. If not, we will be cheering feel good stories every handful of years, but not hitting the next level. Hell, I am good with whatever Shaka decides, but he put the program in a great spot and hope he builds on it.
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Agree with most of this. Shaka must step up the recruiting and land some studs to keep up with Jones.
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Agree with most of this. Shaka must step up the recruiting and land some studs to keep up with Jones.
Johnny Jones isn’t coaching anymore
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The Owens/Parham class looks like a great start.
I know it's scattered throughout the recruiting thread but I'm not sure off the top of my head who the biggest targets are for this next class.
I know we're in on some highly-regards point guards.
Sounds like we're in a really good place with Ian Miletic from RMHS (would also like to see this as I went there)
Don't remember what other wings we are focused on.
We're not really focused on bigs for this class, right?
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Parham and Owens should be a great class. Add a portal PG and we should be a strong team again next year.
Give me a 2025 class of Nyk Lewis, Adrien Stevens, and Ian Miletic and we’ll be in good shape going forward.
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I think this is a very important offseason and next recruiting class for Shaka. The last three years have been building the foundation and it is time to build off of that. I do not think you can count on catching lightning in a bottle, like Shaka did with Omax, TK and Oso, and the level of HS players and/or portal guys need to continue to get better.
Part of the beauty of the last three years was having guys we watched grow up and improve at crazy levels. Now, I love Shaka, but I do not believe he has Oso and TK type of improvement magic in his back pocket. The program is now at a fork in the road, and I am anxious to see if it Shaka sticks with his plan.
To be honest, the last two years were an unreal feel good story and we sucked every ounce out of it. IMO, we need to up the recruiting and at least dabble in the portal. If not, we will be cheering feel good stories every handful of years, but not hitting the next level. Hell, I am good with whatever Shaka decides, but he put the program in a great spot and hope he builds on it.
Correct Goose. I would like to add s big and a PG.
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Why would Shaka change his plan? It worked.
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Fluff
Well, I do not believe you land or keep two guys like TK and Oso and have this type of success often. I loved it, but think it might have been a once in a career occurrence.
I think that once in a career event changes everything for Shaka. His recruiting philosophy is far different than it was at Texas and it could change again.
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Everything about the last two years reinforces his philosophy. He’s said as much. Primarily recruit and develop - add from the portal if it fits a need and the culture.
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Parham and Owens should be a great class. Add a portal PG and we should be a strong team again next year.
Give me a 2025 class of Nyk Lewis, Adrien Stevens, and Ian Miletic and we’ll be in good shape going forward.
Lewis, Stevens, and Miletic would be a homerun class. Nigel James is another bigtime PG option. So, either Lewis or James is fine by me.
If 2025 ends up being a 4 player class, give me Jamarion Batemon as well. Bigtime shooter, but I think his handle needs work.
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Fluff
Again, there is not many bigger fans of Shaka than I am, but if he is betting on having the same success as he has had the past two seasons, I think that is a big gamble.
In addition, if S16 is the ceiling for a dream two seasons then expectations need to be adjusted. I would bet a lot of money that he will never have two special players peak at the same time he has the last two years.
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Can’t wait to see who Shaka adds to the program and also looking forward to seeing how the returning players develop over the offseason. In particular, I am really excited for the return of a healthy Sean. Losing him this season was a huge blow.
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Lewis, Stevens, and Miletic would be a homerun class. Nigel James is another bigtime PG option. So, either Lewis or James is fine by me.
If 2025 ends up being a 4 player class, give me Jamarion Batemon as well. Bigtime shooter, but I think his handle needs work.
Amari Allen too. He will be visiting soon and he's started this AAU season really strong. Really versatile forward who would pair well with Miletic at the 3/4 spots.
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Why would Shaka change his plan? It worked.
Because it is unlikely that he will have as many open scholarships as he had Y1, when he brought in OMax, Kur, Tyler and Morsell. With fewer openings, he'll need to be more strategic in filling gaps, even if he retains his principal approach of recruit and develop.
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Why would Shaka change his plan? It worked.
Strategies have to be adaptable based on the turnover of the roster.
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Muggsy
Do not challenge Fluff. He knows all.
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With one open spot, I think the priority is a big man. I know people worry about not having a PG on the roster, but Kam averaged 4.5 apg while Tyler was out and Tyler came in as a shooting guard. Kam is much better suited and schooled in the sytem to take over the PG duties than Tyler was in 2021 when he arrived. Adding in Stevie and Tre Norman as additional ball-handlers gives us enough experience and skill to run the offense. I think reinforcing the front court is the bigger need.
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Strategies have to be adaptable based on the turnover of the roster.
He’ll be adaptable. People have read way too much into what Shaka said. No coach will ignore the portal.
The core of the roster will be his guys he recruited. When necessary, he’ll add players. I just wouldn’t expect him to build his roster solely on the portal.
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If Shaka isn’t adaptable it would shock me. He’s been adaptable to his roster every year in either construction or how he designs the game plan to win.
He doesn’t strike me as a coach that doesn’t embrace the pressure to win.
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Amari Allen too. He will be visiting soon and he's started this AAU season really strong. Really versatile forward who would pair well with Miletic at the 3/4 spots.
Didn't realize Marquette was still recruiting Allen. Since he didn't visit during the season (as far as I know), I had assumed Shaka was focusing elsewhere.
Like you said, Allen was terrific last weekend. Another recruit I'd love to see at Marquette.
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UConn is the new model and we are already replicating much of it. You need to have an unwavering culture/value system/approach and a specific way of doing everything. Incoming players whether they’re straight of high school or transfers have to commit to it. Your attrition is either guys who can’t handle the expectations or “matriculate” to the NBA. It doesn’t mean you need burger boy recruits, it just means you need guys that are all in.
I love the mix of players Hurley has brought in to UConn. Whether they played their first college game for UConn or not, they are all bought in to the culture and the system. Shaka didn’t have that at Texas but he can have it at MU.
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Can’t wait to see who Shaka adds to the program and also looking forward to seeing how the returning players develop over the offseason. In particular, I am really excited for the return of a healthy Sean. Losing him this season was a huge blow.
Unless something changes, you're going to be waiting a long time.
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Didn't realize Marquette was still recruiting Allen. Since he didn't visit during the season (as far as I know), I had assumed Shaka was focusing elsewhere.
Like you said, Allen was terrific last weekend. Another recruit I'd love to see at Marquette.
Yeah, I thought we were out on Allen. Would love one of him or Stevens and like you said, either Lewis or James would be a great get.
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Agree with most of this. Shaka must step up the recruiting and land some studs to keep up with Jones.
100%. UConn is Jones. MU had a nice season, for sure. However, I doubt Hurley would ever be satisfied with a Sweet 16. Hopefully Shaka isn’t either.
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o
Fluff
Again, there is not many bigger fans of Shaka than I am, but if he is betting on having the same success as he has had the past two seasons, I think that is a big gamble.
In addition, if S16 is the ceiling for a dream two seasons then expectations need to be adjusted. I would bet a lot of money that he will never have two special players peak at the same time he has the last two years.
Goose
You were all in on the Shaka/Kolek/OMax/Oso train long before Fluffy (and just about everyone else). And, of course, like you, Rico, Frenns, Muggsy, etc., know that Shaka will prove adaptable because it is what successful people do. Fluffy will remain stubborn. And wrong. Because it’s what people like Fluffy do. It’s in the DNA.
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I think this is a very important offseason and next recruiting class for Shaka. The last three years have been building the foundation and it is time to build off of that. I do not think you can count on catching lightning in a bottle, like Shaka did with Omax, TK and Oso, and the level of HS players and/or portal guys need to continue to get better.
Part of the beauty of the last three years was having guys we watched grow up and improve at crazy levels. Now, I love Shaka, but I do not believe he has Oso and TK type of improvement magic in his back pocket. The program is now at a fork in the road, and I am anxious to see if it Shaka sticks with his plan.
To be honest, the last two years were an unreal feel good story and we sucked every ounce out of it. IMO, we need to up the recruiting and at least dabble in the portal. If not, we will be cheering feel good stories every handful of years, but not hitting the next level. Hell, I am good with whatever Shaka decides, but he put the program in a great spot and hope he builds on it.
What do you mean by catching lightning in a bottle? Do you think that is what Shaka did?
He would call it developing his players.
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I think this is a very important offseason and next recruiting class for Shaka. The last three years have been building the foundation and it is time to build off of that. I do not think you can count on catching lightning in a bottle, like Shaka did with Omax, TK and Oso, and the level of HS players and/or portal guys need to continue to get better.
Part of the beauty of the last three years was having guys we watched grow up and improve at crazy levels. Now, I love Shaka, but I do not believe he has Oso and TK type of improvement magic in his back pocket. The program is now at a fork in the road, and I am anxious to see if it Shaka sticks with his plan.
To be honest, the last two years were an unreal feel good story and we sucked every ounce out of it. IMO, we need to up the recruiting and at least dabble in the portal. If not, we will be cheering feel good stories every handful of years, but not hitting the next level. Hell, I am good with whatever Shaka decides, but he put the program in a great spot and hope he builds on it.
Goose…imo, lightning in a bottle was probably more-so Crean w/DWade. I do agree that we need to up the recruiting. Maybe Shaka & staff have with the incoming freshmen. However, counting on freshmen to contribute is dicey. But, I feel like we are due to have a frosh be a stud outta the gate. I also think it would be foolish to ignore the portal, and I don’t think Shaka will. Having a taste of the second weekend, we all want more…and I’m confident speaking for all on Scoop…including Sultan…that a backslide to mid-pack BE and bubble team status will be frustrating.
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o
Goose
You were all in on the Shaka/Kolek/OMax/Oso train long before Fluffy (and just about everyone else). And, of course, like you, Rico, Frenns, Muggsy, etc., know that Shaka will prove adaptable because it is what successful people do. Fluffy will remain stubborn. And wrong. Because it’s what people like Fluffy do. It’s in the DNA.
😂😂😂 You’re the guy who insisted I was “wrong” on the Bill Self compensation…and then slunk away like without a peep after I posted evidence that I was indeed correct.
Even when you’re sure you finally got me…you didn’t. Sad.
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Yeah, I thought we were out on Allen. Would love one of him or Stevens and like you said, either Lewis or James would be a great get.
We have at least 4 to give in 2025. With the way Shaka prefers HS recruiting, and other teams are avoiding it, i wonder if he takes 4 in 2025.
PG Lewis or James
2G Stevens or Batemon
G/F Allen or Batemon
F Miletic
Some combo of 4 of those 6, combined with Owens and Parham in 2024 would have me stoked about the future.
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Shaka knows there is zero excuse for a rebuild year in this day and age. He’s more than earned the right to do it his way. Whether that’s through player development and retention or through the portal. It doesn’t matter to me how we get from Point A (today) to Point B (next march). I expect we’ll have a competing team we can be proud of one way or the other.
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Muggsy
Do not challenge Fluff. He knows all.
Always have to make it personal don’t you.
Really insecure I guess.
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Shaka knows there is zero excuse for a rebuild year in this day and age. He’s more than earned the right to do it his way. Whether that’s through player development and retention or through the portal. It doesn’t matter to me how we get from Point A (today) to Point B (next march). I expect we’ll have a competing team we can be proud of one way or the other.
agreed. Just win! btw, Marquette has always put players in the pros…Crean, Buzz, Wojo, Shaka…would be great to reach a F4 considering the pro talent we’ve had over the past 25 yrs. Just sayin’.
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Strategies have to be adaptable based on the turnover of the roster.
If f course they will be. But at his core he’s going to follow the blueprint that made Marquette successful the last two years.
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Always have to make it personal don’t you.
Really insecure I guess.
Says the guy who ALWAYS makes it personal. Not even a scintilla of self awareness. Sad.
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Says the guy who ALWAYS makes it personal. Not even a scintilla of self awareness. Sad.
Ah Lenny’s. Always attacking the messenger. But that’s what you do.
Anyway I had my fun today proving your absolute assertion was hilariously wrong. Like a cat playing with a mouse for amusement.
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😂😂😂 You’re the guy who insisted I was “wrong” on the Bill Self compensation…and then slunk away like without a peep after I posted evidence that I was indeed correct.
Even when you’re sure you finally got me…you didn’t. Sad.
You were right. Your information was more current than mine. It happens sometimes, abeit infrequently. Congratulations. Further congratulations for staying true to form and being an a$$hole about it.
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What do you mean by catching lightning in a bottle? Do you think that is what Shaka did?
He would call it developing his players.
Agreed. I really struggle with expectations given MU's resources. I don't know what MU has for NIL, but I've read and spoke with mid-major coaches saying their guys are being offered $400-$700k. I know specifically of one kid, a big from the ASUN, offered in that $400k range to be an emergency back-up at an SEC school. I believe Oates said he'll have $5 million at his disposal. So the portal may be an option for MU, but I think it's a really tricky situation for a school like MU. I firmly believe that Shaka is stretching MU $$$ as well as any coach could.
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You were right. Your information was more current than mine. It happens sometimes, abeit infrequently. Congratulations. Further congratulations for staying true to form and being an a$$hole about it.
The best part about it was you were so sure of yourself, that you used the simple word “Wrong.”
Only to be let down by an easy Google search. That’s rough.
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The best part about it was you were so sure of yourself, that you used the simple word “Wrong.”
Only to be let down by an easy Google search. That’s rough.
I mean how hard would it have been to look it up? The information was nearly five months old. But I guess in the rush to get Fluffy, corners were cut.
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Sultans of various kinds, Fluffys, Hippies and whateverI forgot! This is getting confusing. Who’s on 1st, what’s on 2nd…………………..
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I think this is a very important offseason and next recruiting class for Shaka. The last three years have been building the foundation and it is time to build off of that. I do not think you can count on catching lightning in a bottle, like Shaka did with Omax, TK and Oso, and the level of HS players and/or portal guys need to continue to get better.
Part of the beauty of the last three years was having guys we watched grow up and improve at crazy levels. Now, I love Shaka, but I do not believe he has Oso and TK type of improvement magic in his back pocket. The program is now at a fork in the road, and I am anxious to see if it Shaka sticks with his plan.
To be honest, the last two years were an unreal feel good story and we sucked every ounce out of it. IMO, we need to up the recruiting and at least dabble in the portal. If not, we will be cheering feel good stories every handful of years, but not hitting the next level. Hell, I am good with whatever Shaka decides, but he put the program in a great spot and hope he builds on it.
100% agree. And agree on TK and Oso, and the others, being a unique experience that if one assumes it will always work out that way, they are being naive.
I think Shaka's general plan will remain the same. Recruit guys that fit together, and fit his system and plan on developing them. You will always hope for a situation, where they develop, and play together seamlessly like TK and Oso, but also realize that things don't always work out, and you have to have a plan B, and C, and D.
I have no doubt that Shaka will adapt accordingly, plan first on developing internally, but also use the portal when needed and things don't go 100% to plan.
As you correctly indicate, the next recruiting class, and how he builds that next squad (portal or otherwise) is the next big step for the program.
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I mean how hard would it have been to look it up? The information was nearly five months old. But I guess in the rush to get Fluffy, corners were cut.
Paranoia strikes deep
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We R FF
Of course TK, Oso and others are great examples of player development and big time credit goes to Shaka, his staff and the players. That said, and I hope I am wrong, developing two guys to the same level of TK and Oso is going to be virtually impossible. More importantly, the complimentary style of their games might never be seen again.
If you expecting to see similar type development of two unique players that were attached at the hip, you likely have a long wait ahead of you. That is why I started the thread. The foundation was built in warp speed, now we will see how Shaka build on it.
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Always have to make it personal don’t you.
Really insecure I guess.
Didn’t you mock me for being a mascot in another thread?
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Man, it's really a treat to slog through all this ad hominem crap. Shaka's gonna do what Shaka's gonna do.
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Didn’t you mock me for being a mascot in another thread?
Yes. Now go off and entertain the children and let’s the adults talk here ok?
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Why would Shaka change his plan? It worked.
As stated earlier, Shaka caught lightning in a bottle. Now, it's going to be up to his recruiting/development that is relied upon.
Do you think that Shaka maximized our potential the last two years?
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56-17 says yes. Remember, 18 months ago, MU was picked 9th in the Big East. Then he ran it back despite a run of injuries and illness. Don't equate a poorly timed abysmal shooting day with underachieving.
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I think Shaka gets an A+++ for maximizing the potential over the last two years. Now, I am hoping there are better players coming to MU and they do not need to overachieve. I think the last two years were worked to perfection by all parties in the program.
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I think this is a very important offseason and next recruiting class for Shaka. The last three years have been building the foundation and it is time to build off of that. I do not think you can count on catching lightning in a bottle, like Shaka did with Omax, TK and Oso, and the level of HS players and/or portal guys need to continue to get better.
Part of the beauty of the last three years was having guys we watched grow up and improve at crazy levels. Now, I love Shaka, but I do not believe he has Oso and TK type of improvement magic in his back pocket. The program is now at a fork in the road, and I am anxious to see if it Shaka sticks with his plan.
To be honest, the last two years were an unreal feel good story and we sucked every ounce out of it. IMO, we need to up the recruiting and at least dabble in the portal. If not, we will be cheering feel good stories every handful of years, but not hitting the next level. Hell, I am good with whatever Shaka decides, but he put the program in a great spot and hope he builds on it.
So you want Shaka to deviate from his plan that has brought success the last 3 years? Deviate from the plan that was built after his time at Texas that proved to not work, and thus he developed his current plan?
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Irwin
The game has changed a great deal since he left Texas. I do not want him to change anything other than recruiting higher level recruits and filling in with the right portal guys when he needed. I just do not think we will ever see development from lower end recruits like we saw from TK and Oso again. That said, I think this incoming freshman class is the best we have seen in the Shaka era. I hope that trend continues.
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I get what Goose is saying and I get Irwin's rebuttal. Shaka came to MU determined to do it his way and not chase 5 stars that didn't mesh. At MU, he has gone with character, retention, and development. It worked pretty well. But now the anchors of the last two seasons are leaving. And the existential question is whether or not Shaka stays his course or chases an impact transfer.
IMO, that will be answered by who remains. If the other 12 stay, Shaka doesn't have room. Again, IMO, the only thing I can see him chasing is a PG as an insurance policy for Sean. But I just don't see him doing a bag drop.
All of this becomes moot if there are a lot of departures.
So, I see him holding to his principles until there is a wave of departures.
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As stated earlier, Shaka caught lightning in a bottle.
He did? How is that?
Maybe he's a really good coach who knows what he is doing.
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So you want Shaka to deviate from his plan that has brought success the last 3 years? Deviate from the plan that was built after his time at Texas that proved to not work, and thus he developed his current plan?
Yeah you'd think that after the last couple of years, people would be happy over how he is building the program. Way ahead of schedule with results greater than anyone should reasonably expect.
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Weird that the same folks that want to bring in multiple players, therefore cutting someone, are the same that insisted that an Omax replacement was coming this time last year.
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tower
I am 100% behind retention of players and hope that trends continues. By no means do I want Shaka chasing guys out to hit the portal. My point is simple, I think Shaka needs to recruit higher level players that he can retain. Probably not 5 star players, but possibly not all around 100 in rankings.
Fluff
I know you read every post on scoop and I have ever given any indication that I do not think Shaka is a great coach or I am not 100% supportive of any way he runs the program? You are a smart basketball guy and am surprised that you do not think there was some luck in the development of TK and Oso. Probably the biggest stroke of luck was how they complimented each other.
There is no doubt that Shaka has developed players at a very high level, but no other player comes close to TK and Oso in development. I am very happy that we were able to witness the growth of those two, but I am not expecting it again anytime soon.
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I have no idea how much luck was involved with either of them. Maybe they were fortunate in some respects sure, but using phrases like "genie in a bottle" suggests that Shaka just manage to stumble across these guys. Oso was here, but Tyler and OMax were recruited here as transfers.
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Yes. Now go off and entertain the children and let’s the adults talk here ok?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/rulNY1vmfEtqg/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47czuemanikrfdd7ct8n27nk5kl9754p8ok15kgty4&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
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Fluff
I am pretty sure that I know the history of the players being discussed but thank you for the reminder. Again, I am a vocal Shaka guy and will be here for as long as he is here because I think he is great for the university, not just the basketball program. That said, if Shaka expected this type of growth from TK and Oso he is the greatest scout of talent in the history of the game. Of course there was some luck in the development. Biggest stroke of luck might be that they were best friends, similar goals and had zero problem complimenting each other on and off the court. IMO, that probably added a great deal to the success on the court.
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Mark this thread down as one of the rare times that I completely agree with Goose.
The rarity of a mid-major transfer turning into a 2x All-American is the definition of lightning in a bottle. Without TKO, it's a nice team, top 4 in the BE, but nowhere near a team that spends a lot of time top 10 nationally.
Next year, I think, is the biggest coaching challenge in what will be Shaka's 4 years here. What he has delivered here in his first three years has been nothing short of amazing and far, far exceeded expectations. If I have one niggling question mark, it's about his HS recruiting. Given that his first class are just rising juniors, the jury is still out, but I also am of the opinion that for sustained success we'll need to recruit at a higher level as I think the chance of finding another TKO is about nil.
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Goose, I know this is heresy, but ponder Bo Ryan. He retained and developed. Every year, his recruiting classes were disparaged. Every year, his team ended up in the mix. He caught lightning with Kaminsky and basketball-boumcing-off-his-face-guy.
Shaka is basically trying to replicate that. I know it is an anachronism in current college basketball. But watching players get better over 3-4 years used to be the norm.
On the other hand, MU has always had transfers and once upon a time used JUCO's. Part of the MU heritage. I am not anti-transfer.
I am standing by my opinion. Shaka is doing things how he wants to and will continue to do so until there are mass unexpected departures. I think he likes the potential of next season's roster and if no one else leaves, then no one else comes in.
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Goose, I know this is heresy, but ponder Bo Ryan.
^ ban dis guy
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If Shaka brings in a transfer to replace OMax as you desired, two things happen. That incoming transfer may very well leave for the pros or for another school after the season AND that player who was “skipped” over also very well leaves because they saw their spot filled. I know, I know….if he was good enough he would have played, right?
At that point, Shaka is back in the portal attempting to stop gap this position again with no continuity. Its not what he is doing here.
I have absolutely no problem with Shaka’s approach.
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I am little confused. A lot of talk about Shaka must recruit at a "higher level", yet for the class of 2024, he has a Top 40 recruit in Owens and a Top 90 recruit in Parham. Even Goose stated the 2024 is the best class in Shaka era. Then some state don't go after the Burger Boys, because one and dones don't fit in his system. Don't over recruit current players because it may affect the "culture".
So, what is the definition of recruiting at a higher level? Is the 2024 class of Owens and Parham not a higher level for the two openings that were available? Shaka is in on two highly rated point guards, plus others in 2025, but that's a ways off. I am hoping that the higher level means starting with the 2025 class, because 2024 was pretty good with two players.
The class of 2023 with Norman, Lowery and Amadou was underwhelming to say the least, especially with Norman and Lowery not playing one minute in last two NCAAT games, with a beat up MU squad. Hamilton is a player no one has any clue as to how he plays. I'll wait for the usual freshman into sophomore improvement responses, but hopefully super, super improvements.
2025 will be the barometer of how Shaka can continue from 2024 class.
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Tower
I am 95% in agreement with you. My OP was more in lines of MU being a top ten program vs a top 25 program. I have zero doubt what he is done the last three years gives me confidence in being a top 25 program. My curiosity is based off of the game has changed a great deal in three years and seeing how Shaka responds.
Again, as a fan, I hope he recruits higher level kids that hang around for 3-4 years and portal when needed. While I would be disappointed if MU does not build off of the last two years and becomes a top 10 program, I support Shaka regardless. I am not suggesting wholesale change in philosophy, maybe a tweak to compete with other ways of building a top 10 team.
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The thing I can't quite wrap my head around is that if a team is very close to winning a national championship, and one piece (a la Cam Spencer) could put you over the Top why not get him? It's not upsetting the culture, IMO, because if player(s) are upset that playing time is being taken away for 1 year because of an increased chance to win it all, does that upset player really fit the culture?
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To me, assuming Kam comes back, the keys to how high the ceiling of the team will be next season are Ross, Gold, Norman and Lowery. I suppose that's a pretty obvious statement.
I think Kam, Stevie and Jop can continue to improve but they're closer to their ceilings. Can Kam be more of a playmaker while continuing to score at such a high, efficient level. Can Stevie take another step offensively and become more consistent from 3? Can Jop become more consistent in general, tighten up his handle, etc?
Anything we get from Al, Caedin, Parham and Owens will be a bonus.
Hopefully all these guys have great, healthy offseasons. Shaka has definitely earned the benefit of the doubt as far as the development we can expect.
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The thing I can't quite wrap my head around is that if a team is very close to winning a national championship, and one piece (a la Cam Spencer) could put you over the Top why not get him? It's not upsetting the culture, IMO, because if player(s) are upset that playing time is being taken away for 1 year because of an increased chance to win it all, does that upset player really fit the culture?
Probably not. And Shaka did reach out to a couple - and maybe more because he plays it close to the vest. So he's not against using the portal - he's reached out to guys this year too.
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MU reaches out to more players than what hits twitter, both with the portal and HS guys. They like to stay close to the vest. It's how they were able to snag Tre when all the big names started to take notice.
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ED: This was in response to nyg
I don't think you are confused at all, you pretty much reiterated the idea that recruiting at a higher level is ideal. Hopefully Owens is just the start of top 50 recruits.
The 2023 class is still somewhat of an unknown. I liked what I saw of Zaide in terms of potential if not immediate results, and Tre certainly showed improvement as the year went on. And, it isn't necessarily surprising they got limited opportunities given there were 8 returning rotation players, but they didn't exactly seize the moment when injuries popped up.
I am not at all saying Shaka should change his philosophy, but I am hoping he can find move 4 stars that buy into his program. I'm hopeful/optimistic that the success that he has already delivered will make that easier to achieve.
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tower
I am 100% behind retention of players and hope that trends continues. By no means do I want Shaka chasing guys out to hit the portal. My point is simple, I think Shaka needs to recruit higher level players that he can retain. Probably not 5 star players, but possibly not all around 100 in rankings.
Fluff
I know you read every post on scoop and I have ever given any indication that I do not think Shaka is a great coach or I am not 100% supportive of any way he runs the program? You are a smart basketball guy and am surprised that you do not think there was some luck in the development of TK and Oso. Probably the biggest stroke of luck was how they complimented each other.
There is no doubt that Shaka has developed players at a very high level, but no other player comes close to TK and Oso in development. I am very happy that we were able to witness the growth of those two, but I am not expecting it again anytime soon.
Shaka has recruited two guys coming in that are in the back half of the Top 50 lists. If you start chasing higher recruits, you start infringing on the issues that Shaka ran into at Texas. One and done types (or at least believing that is the case, guys demanding playing time and transferring out if it isn't there, not committing if they know playing time isn't there etc).
And can we stop with the argument that Shaka doesn't use the portal? He has brought in a handful of guys that have led to the resurgence of the program and gotten us to where we are today, which is Top 15 in the way to early polls for year #4. Just because he didn't grab anyone last year doesn't mean that he has abandoned the portal. It simply didn't fit what he felt was needed. And if no one leaves (and based on comments from last night at the banquet I am not sure anyone is) don't expect a lot of portal activity again this year.
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I think Shaka gets an A+++ for maximizing the potential over the last two years. Now, I am hoping there are better players coming to MU and they do not need to overachieve. I think the last two years were worked to perfection by all parties in the program.
Agree
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I honestly do not get caught up with the number or stars next to a guys name. Here are the top recruits of this past year, outside of Castle and a few others, there is not many that made a massive impact in their first year in the top 30. Fit, culture and the ability to want to be coached are invaluable and I trust Shaka to make that choice of who to bring in.
https://247sports.com/Season/2023-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool/
If you have not heard this - Hurley sums this up perfectly when it comes to team culture and even talks about the helicopter parents:
https://twitter.com/TaylorTwellman/status/1777845078628688191
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I'm not overly concerned about Norman and Lowey not playing much in the tournament. The freshman versions of Oso, Stevie, Jop, and Gold wouldn't have played either.
If Kam returns, along with Stevie and Chase, we just need Tre and Zaide to grow into 15-18 mpg rotation players (think Sean Jones and Ben Gold sophomore year playing time). If Damarius Owens is good enough to beat them out, then that's a bonus to have a freshman that good.
We'll know a lot more about Tre and Zaide a year from now.
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Tower and Goose are barking up the same tree and both are correct.
Tower is correct about retention and development. Forget Bo Ryan as the example and focus on Jay Wright. Wright’s best teams got old together. I’d also challenge you to go look at the recruiting classes that built the dynasty. They look pretty familiar.
What Wright’s success got him was, the ability to recruit top-30 guys like Spellman, Quinerly and Jermaine Robinson-Earl. The type of players Goose is referring to.
We have to take into account the new era, but I’d rather fill around the edges on recruiting misses and early entries that developed faster than they anticipated.
Trust the process.
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Irwin
Unlike some on here, I definitely think Shaka will use the portal when needed. I give him an A for the use the portal thus far. I believe he has brought in five and two will be playing in the NBA next year and was an incomplete due to injury. As for recruiting higher ranked guys, there is no doubt in mind that there are high quality guys, that are not top 15 recruits, that fit the culture and can be here 2-3 years.
For better or worse, Shaka has now put himself and the program in a position to be judged by March/April success. He is a top tier coach, and the bar gets set higher when you reach that level. Again, I am curious and excited to see how he navigates the next couple of seasons. I always thought Crean's biggest test was the year post Wade and feel the same way about Shaka going into next season.
MU has garnered a very high level of national respect over the past two seasons and that only lasts so long. They basically wrapped up a top three seed prior to Xmas and were consistently ranked in the top ten, even with the most losses of that group. I believe this a time to step it up to the next level and take advantage of the success over the past two years.
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For better or worse, Shaka has now put himself and the program in a position to be judged by March/April success. He is a top tier coach, and the bar gets set higher when you reach that level. Again, I am curious and excited to see how he navigates the next couple of seasons. I always thought Crean's biggest test was the year post Wade and feel the same way about Shaka going into next season.
Likewise, Buzz's biggest test was the year after the Amigos graduated. He passed. Guys we didn't expect (Jimmy, Cubi, etc) stepped up and the new guys (Buycks, DJO) were better than expected.
Wojo's biggest tests were the years after the Hausers left (barely passing, at best) and the year after Markus left (failure that got him fired).
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SaveOD
Good points. Only thing I disagree on is that the bar is higher for Shaka than the other guys. He is a top tier coach and spoiled us with quick success. I am not concerned he will pass the test but is a harder test.
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MU reaches out to more players than what hits twitter, both with the portal and HS guys. They like to stay close to the vest. It's how they were able to snag Tre when all the big names started to take notice.
Trilly even mentioned recently how it's hard to get information out of Marquette.
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Trilly even mentioned recently how it's hard to get information out of Marquette.
I love this actually. I know people complain about not having box scores for Italy, etc. - but loose lips sink ships and Shaka keeps everything close to him.
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Tower and Goose are barking up the same tree and both are correct.
Tower is correct about retention and development. Forget Bo Ryan as the example and focus on Jay Wright. Wright’s best teams got old together. I’d also challenge you to go look at the recruiting classes that built the dynasty. They look pretty familiar.
What Wright’s success got him was, the ability to recruit top-30 guys like Spellman, Quinerly and Jermaine Robinson-Earl. The type of players Goose is referring to.
We have to take into account the new era, but I’d rather fill around the edges on recruiting misses and early entries that developed faster than they anticipated.
Trust the process.
The challenge that coaches have with this "model" is having the cred to impose it. Jay Wright obviously had it and Hurley now certainly has it. He can tell players and parents the truth and they can't argue with him.
Shaka is getting there. He is lacking the post season success, but being in the Top 10 for the last 30 polls carries some weight. It is easier to tell guys to wait their turn and have them listen when you can point to internal successes that are similar.
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Shaka's biggest successes so far have been:
1. Watching a decent 2-guard play at an A-10 school, deciding that player could be a standout Big East PG, convincing him to transfer to Marquette, and helping him develop into an All-American.
2. Re-recruiting a 5 who had played only 38 minutes as a freshman, convincing him to stay at Marquette, watching him play as a decent backup as a sophomore, believing he could become the most unique 5 in the country, and helping him develop into a cornerstone player.
I agree with Goose and others that the odds of those kinds of things happening again are very, very long. I also agree that the most recent recruiting class looks very promising; it will be interesting to see if one or both of them play more next season than most of Shaka's freshmen have.
As for what it will take to reach the "next level" ... the answer is the same as it always has been for every coach in every program: always bring in talented prospects. Successfully recruit players with great potential, develop them, and re-recruit them so that they stay for multiple years. Which isn't exactly a revelation.
I would expect that Shaka will continue to not use the portal much, but I do think he is open to doing so if presented with what he thinks are the right circumstances.
(Mostly) good discussion, folks.
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Irwin
Unlike some on here, I definitely think Shaka will use the portal when needed. I give him an A for the use the portal thus far. I believe he has brought in five and two will be playing in the NBA next year and was an incomplete due to injury. As for recruiting higher ranked guys, there is no doubt in mind that there are high quality guys, that are not top 15 recruits, that fit the culture and can be here 2-3 years.
For better or worse, Shaka has now put himself and the program in a position to be judged by March/April success. He is a top tier coach, and the bar gets set higher when you reach that level. Again, I am curious and excited to see how he navigates the next couple of seasons. I always thought Crean's biggest test was the year post Wade and feel the same way about Shaka going into next season.
MU has garnered a very high level of national respect over the past two seasons and that only lasts so long. They basically wrapped up a top three seed prior to Xmas and were consistently ranked in the top ten, even with the most losses of that group. I believe this a time to step it up to the next level and take advantage of the success over the past two years.
The college BB landscape is now firmly entrenched in judging programs by March/April success.
By that standard, Shaka must I'm prove. The winning BEast tourney started in the right direction last year but 2 straight years of fading with 2 seeds puts the program in a state of wondering what is next.
The current roster at best puts MU around top 25, but no where elite. Hopefully the incoming recruits may work out, but Shaka needs studs to improve the status. When will we see some real studs again?
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We need more studly piles of dung.
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The college BB landscape is now firmly entrenched in judging programs by March/April success.
By that standard, Shaka must I'm prove. The winning BEast tourney started in the right direction last year but 2 straight years of fading with 2 seeds puts the program in a state of wondering what is next.
The current roster at best puts MU around top 25, but no where elite. Hopefully the incoming recruits may work out, but Shaka needs studs to improve the status. When will we see some real studs again?
This is a fun conversation to have about sports in general. Just look at how devalued the NBA regular season has become. Teams don't even play guys 25% of the year. All that matters is being rested & healthy for postseason. I'm honestly surprised that elite college teams don't do more "load management" although we kinda did exactly that with Tyler this year.
I definitely see a college world where the conference tournaments become devalued -- the committee has proven you can't really improve your seeding much, and the risk of tired legs & injuries right before the tournament (as long as your spot is already assured) are too much.
How much different is MU's postseason run if Oso sat the Big East tournament & never picked up whatever nagging injury it was that clearly limited his explosiveness?
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We need more studly piles of dung.
Fans like Willie aren’t the ones I worry about the program appeasing.
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I honestly do not get caught up with the number or stars next to a guys name. Here are the top recruits of this past year, outside of Castle and a few others, there is not many that made a massive impact in their first year in the top 30. Fit, culture and the ability to want to be coached are invaluable and I trust Shaka to make that choice of who to bring in.
https://247sports.com/Season/2023-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool/
If you have not heard this - Hurley sums this up perfectly when it comes to team culture and even talks about the helicopter parents:
https://twitter.com/TaylorTwellman/status/1777845078628688191
I agree completely. First, who can assess talent better: Shaka and his staff or the writer handing out stars? Second, recruiting random players with lots of stars (the Dodds/Wojo approach) does not make much sense. You need to recruit guys that fit with how you want to play. Shaka generally wants guys who are not athletically limited and can learn to play on both ends of the floor. Guys generally get stars based solely on how they play on offense and the star system does not take into account the fact that some kids physically mature faster than others.
It seems like I am a lot higher on Norman and Lowery than some others. IMO, both were far ahead of the game defensively compared to most frosh and both were more physical than the upperclassmen on the perimeter. Athletically and physically, both are BE players in my mind. We'll see.
Finally, I see a lot of posters comparing MU to where UConn is under Hurley. I do not see anyone comparing MU to where MU was under Wojo. That seems like a lot of progress even in a glass-is-half-empty world.
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Goose makes a couple of very good points. If MU wants more than S16 success, one simple thing needs to happen - more / better players. Take a look at UConn's team compared to ours. Other than Tyler, I am not sure we had one player who could start for UConn. Kam, of course, would get significant minutes but would be a role player. They simply had better players, and more of them, than we had. Their roster was a combination of highly touted recruits like Castle, players they recruited from HS and developed, and portal transfers.
In this day and age, getting top players costs a lot of money, and I do not think MU can really compete in that way. And, I do not necessarily want them to simply be buying players. But, Goose is right; you cannot count on catching lightning in a bottle all the time.
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Goose makes a couple of very good points. If MU wants more than S16 success, one simple thing needs to happen - more / better players. Take a look at UConn's team compared to ours. Other than Tyler, I am not sure we had one player who could start for UConn. Kam, of course, would get significant minutes but would be a role player. They simply had better players, and more of them, than we had. Their roster was a combination of highly touted recruits like Castle, players they recruited from HS and developed, and portal transfers.
In this day and age, getting top players costs a lot of money, and I do not think MU can really compete in that way. And, I do not necessarily want them to simply be buying players. But, Goose is right; you cannot count on catching lightning in a bottle all the time.
Or how about gigantic & powerful size both years? I'm already having nightmares of Ben Gold getting absolutely dislodged trying to grab rebounds in the Big East.
That's one reason it makes sense to go to the portal for a graduate-senior type 5. We really, really need a bridge year before our current roster can hold down 40 minutes at the 5 spot for the next few seasons.
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Or how about gigantic & powerful size both years? I'm already having nightmares of Ben Gold getting absolutely dislodged trying to grab rebounds in the Big East.
That's one reason it makes sense to go to the portal for a graduate-senior type 5. We really, really need a bridge year before our current roster can hold down 40 minutes at the 5 spot for the next few seasons.
Did you have the same fears about Oso after Kur left? Because Ben and Oso's respective Sophomore year's were remarkably similar from a rebounding perspective.
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To be fair, there was concern about whether Oso was ready for 30 minutes a night.
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Did you have the same fears about Oso after Kur left? Because Ben and Oso's respective Sophomore year's were remarkably similar from a rebounding perspective.
at this point, however, we know that Ben isn’t very athletic, slow afoot.
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at this point, however, we know that Ben isn’t very athletic, slow afoot.
If anything that would make me more optimistic about his rebounding. Less switching so he’s down in the paint more where Oso would occasionally get caught up on the perimeter after a rotation.
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at this point, however, we know that Ben isn’t very athletic, slow afoot.
Ben isn't as quick as Oso. Ben is quicker than Henry, Luke, Theo, or a Hauser. Oso is the outlier.
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Ben isn't as quick as Oso. Ben is quicker than Henry, Luke, Theo, or a Hauser. Oso is the outlier.
Quicker than Henry surprises me.
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Ben isn't as quick as Oso. Ben is quicker than Henry, Luke, Theo, or a Hauser. Oso is the outlier.
agreed on Oso. Quicker than Luke, for sure. Sam Hauser? Imo Sam is quicker than Ben. Henry and Theo too.
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Man, I think Gold is pretty athletic for a guy who’s 6’10”. His lateral movement has improved a lot and he’s fast down the court. When he puts it on the floor, he gets to the hoop in a hurry.
Gold is ahead of where Oso was at the same point in their careers. I think big guys generally take a little longer to develop.
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Man, I think Gold is pretty athletic for a guy who’s 6’10”. His lateral movement has improved a lot and he’s fast down the court. When he puts it on the floor, he gets to the hoop in a hurry.
Gold is ahead of where Oso was at the same point in their careers. I think big guys generally take a little longer to develop.
The shin splints over the summer really had a big impact. I thought he improved defensively as the season went on.
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agreed on Oso. Quicker than Luke, for sure. Sam Hauser? Imo Sam is quicker than Ben. Henry and Theo too.
Go watch some of his moves from this year where he pump fakes and blows by his guy. He’s definitely quicker than Sam, Henry, and Theo. He just hasn’t put it together yet.
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Also watch the videos of his help and recovery defense. At least as good as Otule.
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Also watch the videos of his help and recovery defense. At least as good as Otule.
hmm…I leave that one alone 👁️
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I feel attacked.
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agreed on Oso. Quicker than Luke, for sure. Sam Hauser? Imo Sam is quicker than Ben. Henry and Theo too.
Yes. Sam is significantly quicker than the three you mentioned.
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I feel attacked.
I'm constantly attacked. Shake it off Tower. :)
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I will grudgingly concede a healthy Sam, but not Joey.
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I'm constantly attacked. Shake it off Tower. :)
I am constantly disagreed with. Like I care.
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agreed on Oso. Quicker than Luke, for sure. Sam Hauser? Imo Sam is quicker than Ben. Henry and Theo too.
What?
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Yes. Sam is significantly quicker than the three you mentioned.
Sam also is a significant upgrade from Gooollldbrick.
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Sam also is a significant upgrade from Gooollldbrick.
Not as good as Ramsey
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I am constantly disagreed with. Like I care.
You are not. And you do care.
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I don't have obsessed stalkers like you and Sultan.
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Sam also is a significant upgrade from Gooollldbrick.
Your shrewdness of judgement is dizzying, Dung Willie
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Sam also is a significant upgrade from Gooollldbrick.
100%. I do think, however, Gold is more consistent, more impactful, next season. If, for no other reason, good health from the get-go.
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A couple of Scoopers opined that Gold is quicker than Sam was. I happen to disagree but it's not really possible for anyone to know for sure.
But I haven't seen a Scooper say that Gold is better than Sam was at Marquette. And for obvious reasons - Sam was a consistently good player who was able to parlay his elite shooting ability into an NBA career.
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A couple of Scoopers opined that Gold is quicker than Sam was. I happen to disagree but it's not really possible for anyone to know for sure.
But I haven't seen a Scooper say that Gold is better than Sam was at Marquette. And for obvious reasons - Sam was a consistently good player who was able to parlay his elite shooting ability into an NBA career.
Maybe Sam improved his quicks after he left MU but he always had a pretty good 1st step. Benny does as well. It's also conceivable that that Sam rarely displayed his quickness off the dribble because of incompetent coaching/tutelage.
Ben has a lot of talent with great size. Hopefully he can put it all together in '24-25.
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Ben Gold is 6-11, 245. He is plenty quick for his size. He's just not freakishly fast like Oso.
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Exactly. And he has the athleticism to be projected as both a national team rugby player and an Olympic athlete prior to him growing to 6'11. I said earlier in the year that he just needs (A) to knock an opponent on their a$$, or (B) a swift kick in the butt from the coaches. He has all the athleticism he needs and has shown flashes of it. Next season, he needs confidence. He needs to know that he is the man and that no other 6'11 player can do what he does. And then go do it night in and night out.
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Exactly. And he has the athleticism to be projected as both a national team rugby player and an Olympic athlete prior to him growing to 6'11. I said earlier in the year that he just needs (A) to knock an opponent on their a$$, or (B) a swift kick in the butt from the coaches. He has all the athleticism he needs and has shown flashes of it. Next season, he need confidence. He needs to know that he is the man and that no other 6'11 player can do what he does. And then go do it night in and night out.
Exactly right. This is why I reiterate attacking with fury. Ben has the goods. It's time for the young man to play with relentless force and confidence. Hopefully he gains a little muscle.