NL Central Pissing Match - 2011

[🏀]

Consider that the Reds play 81 games in what is widely considered the best offensive park in the NL... statistically, they may be the better team on offense, but if you could adjust stats for a neutral field setting (which I'm sure someone has), I would bet the Brewers come out on top.

Equivalent average or True average would be the stat you are looking for. Reds v. Brewers, top six hitters with over 150 PA.

Votto - .347
Bruce - .322
Hernandez - .314
Phillips - .278
Gomes - .267
Stubbs - .265

Braun - .352
Fielder - .325
Weeks - .298
McGehee - .246
Gomez - .245
Betancourt - .214

[wadesworld]

Equivalent average or True average would be the stat you are looking for. Reds v. Brewers, top six hitters with over 150 PA.

Votto - .347
Bruce - .322
Hernandez - .314
Phillips - .278
Gomes - .267
Stubbs - .265

Braun - .352
Fielder - .325
Weeks - .298
McGehee - .246
Gomez - .245
Betancourt - .214

Once Hart and Lucroy have enough ABs to see a legitimate sample size they will bump Gomez and Betancourt out and McGehee down.  I'm not sure what that would do overall with this comparison since I do not know how to calculate it or where to find those stats, but it would be close.

[mugrad2006]

Heard an interview with Ryan Dempster on AM radio today.  They asked what it was like to play in front of only 30K on Memorial Day.  His comment was along the lines of 'I guess when you're not winning some folks might just want to go to the beach, the weather here has been awful.'

After all the recent bashing of Brewers fans on this board, find it interesting that the Cubbies only draw 30k for an afternoon game on a national holiday when it was 80 and sunny.

[jmayer1]

As much as I would prefer the Brewers, I still think the Reds are a better team especially once they get Bailey back and can settle down their pitching.  Offensively, they are pretty much the best hitting team in the NL, Votto and Bruce are monsters, not to mention Phillips.  This is all moot unless the Brewers can find a way to win on the road.  They are the Wisconsin Badgers of the MLB at this point.

Thus far, the Cards have been far and away the best hitting team in the NL, and it's really not that close by most objective measuers. Who knows how long they'll keep this up, but that's pretty scary considering Pujols hasn't looked very good yet.

[JWags85]

Heard an interview with Ryan Dempster on AM radio today.  They asked what it was like to play in front of only 30K on Memorial Day.  His comment was along the lines of 'I guess when you're not winning some folks might just want to go to the beach, the weather here has been awful.'

After all the recent bashing of Brewers fans on this board, find it interesting that the Cubbies only draw 30k for an afternoon game on a national holiday when it was 80 and sunny.

Not sure what your point is.  The bashing of Brewers fans was mostly because Cubs fans are consistently called out for being fairweather or not true fans, and thus the retaliation comes.  But we don't need to get back into the population/attendance quagmire.

This spring has been a perfect storm in terms of attendance issues for the Cubs.  The weather has been horrific, the team is playing terribly, and people have yet to really buy into new ownership which plays a role (not as big as the first two, but still).

And not to be a homer, but it felt like ALOT of people left town this weekend.  Bars were not really that packed, and couple that with the insane number of people at the beaches on the first real beach day of the year, and I'm not that surprised with attendance.

[MerrittsMustache]

Heard an interview with Ryan Dempster on AM radio today.  They asked what it was like to play in front of only 30K on Memorial Day.  His comment was along the lines of 'I guess when you're not winning some folks might just want to go to the beach, the weather here has been awful.'

After all the recent bashing of Brewers fans on this board, find it interesting that the Cubbies only draw 30k for an afternoon game on a national holiday when it was 80 and sunny.

Cubs fans are fed up. The team keeps getting worse and is bringing in the likes of Doug Davis and Roddy Lopez to start while the new owner has proven to be a dunce and keeps raising ticket prices and making a fool of himself in his attempts to find "new revenue streams." This is all on top of the fact that the marketing department made the colassal blunder of offering smaller ticket packages. It's a mess on the North side right now and Ricketts hasn't done much to give fans confidence that he has any idea of how to run a baseball team.

[MUfan12]

The Brewers will land in Miami before Votto's HR lands.

Another road series loss. One that could have been prevented by having a manager with a brain.

[MUBurrow]

The Brewers will land in Miami before Votto's HR lands.

Another road series loss. One that could have been prevented by having a manager with a brain.

I actually like Roenicke, much more than I liked Yost anyway. Watching tonight it seemed like he stuck with Marcum too long, but unlike Yost who stuck with all his pitchers far too long, I feel like Roenicke only makes that mistake with Marcum. Its almost as if because Marcum throws so few fastballs and so much trash, that Roenicke underestimates what will happen when he tires. In actuality, Marcums trash tends to hang just as hard throwers stuff tends to slow, and Marcum as a greater to equal chance to get taken yard. Either way, I'm thinking that by the break, Roenicke will have to learn his lesson about Marcum.

* I would love to see Marcum's stats until the last two outs or so of each of his outings. After being at the Grand Slam game friday and now watching tonight, it feels this is starting to be a pattern. I know that type of getting hit at the end of an outing is common to all SPs, but I feel like Marcum's stuff/how he is treated makes him particularly vulnerable.

[MUfan12]

I must be in the minority on Roenicke. I'm not a fan of his, to be honest, for several reasons.

-Leaving starters in too long, especially Marcum as you said.
-His insistence on using Loe in the 8th, for the full inning, no matter what. See tonight's game.
-Other bullpen blunders, like running Axford out for 28 pitches in a 5 run game last night.
-Batting Gomez second for two months.
-His torrid love affair with Mark Kotsay, to the point of playing him in CF.
-Running into a huge amount of outs, especially at home plate, and the only explanation is "aggressiveness."

I'm glad the players like him and all that, but I'm seeing some of these things cost them games. And with their defense and inconsistent hitting, they can't afford to give away a lot of games.

[MUBurrow]

I think a lot of those are fair. Especially the Marcum criticism and his use of Loe, particularly with Saito and Hawkins starting to come out of injury. I'm also not a fan of his use of Kotsay, particularly with the clocks ticking on the young OFs in the brewers system (the only relative minor league strength they have) as they sit on the big league bench.

I guess I always just attributed his baserunning aggressiveness to Sedar as much as anything - whether thats fair or not.  Also, while I don't like Gomez all that much, I'm not sure there were many other options while Nyjer was hurt.

[wadesworld]

I must be in the minority on Roenicke. I'm not a fan of his, to be honest, for several reasons.

-Leaving starters in too long, especially Marcum as you said.
But this wasn't a problem with Yost and Macha?  He is a HUGE improvement from these 2 in terms of this issue, and he is only going to get better as he becomes more comfortable with the pitchers he has and figures out their limits.
-His insistence on using Loe in the 8th, for the full inning, no matter what. See tonight's game.
Loe is our setup man until Saito returns from injury.  He has done well in the spot and sometimes you live and you die by that rotation, just like a closer.  It's his inning, regardless of what happens.
-Other bullpen blunders, like running Axford out for 28 pitches in a 5 run game last night.
He hadn't pitched in 3 days.  You can't give your closer 4 days without pitching.  What do you want him to do?  The bullpen has done a phenomenal job this year and he has managed it well.
-Batting Gomez second for two months.
Who did you want to hit 2nd with Hart, Lucroy, and Morgan out of the lineup due to injuries?  Katsay?  Bettancourt?  Nieves?  I'll take my chances with a guy who has 1 thing going for him (speed) over guys who have absolutely nothing going for them.  Would you move McGhee up to 2 and have absolutely no speed there, a struggling bat, and absolutely no protection behind Prince in the 5 hole?  And you can't just bring somebody fresh off the DL and put him in the 2 hole either.  You have to get them back into the swing of things.
-His torrid love affair with Mark Kotsay, to the point of playing him in CF.
Again, who are you going to start in center field when you want to give Gomez a day off and Morgan is on the DL?  It's not like Gomez is a player you must have in the lineup, a superstar.  He should be given days off, especially when he was struggling, and either Kotsay or Boggs was going to be that guy.  I'd take the veteran over the journeyman.
-Running into a huge amount of outs, especially at home plate, and the only explanation is "aggressiveness."
But their aggressiveness on the basepathes also win them some baseball games.

I'm glad the players like him and all that, but I'm seeing some of these things cost them games. And with their defense and inconsistent hitting, they can't afford to give away a lot of games.

[MUfan12]

1) But this wasn't a problem with Yost and Macha?  He is a HUGE improvement from these 2 in terms of this issue, and he is only going to get better as he becomes more comfortable with the pitchers he has and figures out their limits.
2) Loe is our setup man until Saito returns from injury.  He has done well in the spot and sometimes you live and you die by that rotation, just like a closer.  It's his inning, regardless of what happens.
3) He hadn't pitched in 3 days.  You can't give your closer 4 days without pitching.  What do you want him to do?  The bullpen has done a phenomenal job this year and he has managed it well.
4) Who did you want to hit 2nd with Hart, Lucroy, and Morgan out of the lineup due to injuries?  Katsay?  Bettancourt?  Nieves?  I'll take my chances with a guy who has 1 thing going for him (speed) over guys who have absolutely nothing going for them.  Would you move McGhee up to 2 and have absolutely no speed there, a struggling bat, and absolutely no protection behind Prince in the 5 hole?  And you can't just bring somebody fresh off the DL and put him in the 2 hole either.  You have to get them back into the swing of things.
5) Again, who are you going to start in center field when you want to give Gomez a day off and Morgan is on the DL?  It's not like Gomez is a player you must have in the lineup, a superstar.  He should be given days off, especially when he was struggling, and either Kotsay or Boggs was going to be that guy.  I'd take the veteran over the journeyman.
6) But their aggressiveness on the basepathes also win them some baseball games.

Responding in order-

1. Agree on Yost, not so much with Macha. Just because Macha was ornery doesn't mean he wasn't a good baseball mind. I rarely had issue with his managing. Also keep in mind Macha never had pitching like this. As far as Ron needing time, they don't have time. They've essentially mortgaged the future for this year. Can't afford to have the skipper on training wheels.

2) He's overused an average pitcher, and Loe is no more than an average pitcher. It being "his inning" is garbage. He's not a closer, do what you have to do to win. Look at tonight, Votto now has 4 hits against Loe, and 3 of them are homers. He plunks Phillips, and there should have been someone else ready to go for Votto.

3) Could have used him Sunday if you just wanted to break up his inactive days. This one I get more than some of his other decisions, though.

4) I understand the injuries, but even with guys healthy, he stuck with Gomez. That's what got me. Hart has always been more effective in the 2 hole. Lo and behold, he got hot this year after Ron finally moved him there.

5) Boggs has more speed and more pop in his bat than Kotsay. Give me that in a bench player any day.

6) Outside of the suicide squeeze (ballsy call, I admit) when has that won a game for them this season?

[Benny B]

Haven't you guys figured it out yet... when the Brewers win, the manager is a genius.  When they lose, he's an idiot.

Currently, Ron Roenicke is an idiot.  He will maintain that title until the Brewers win again.  At that point, he will once again be a genius.

Throughout the history of baseball, there has never been a consensus on who's a good or bad manager.  Not until a team goes 162-0 or 0-162 will we ever see either.

[muwarrior87]

Haven't you guys figured it out yet... when the Brewers win, the manager is a genius.  When they lose, he's an idiot.

Currently, Ron Roenicke is an idiot.  He will maintain that title until the Brewers win again.  At that point, he will once again be a genius.

Throughout the history of baseball, there has never been a consensus on who's a good or bad manager.  Not until a team goes 162-0 or 0-162 will we ever see either.

Then he's brilliant at home and on the road he's a moron.

[Benny B]

Then he's brilliant at home and on the road he's a moron.

In my experience, most guys are considered morons at home.

[mugrad2006]

Roenicke's looking far from a moron right now.  Crew is on a role after sweeping the Marlins on the road.  Team looks pretty good now that they are finally getting healthy.

I'd make a comment on the Cubbies, but I really don't feel like heading down into the cellar

[whodem]

How many times has Loe given up the lead in the 8th inning?

[whodem]

How many times has Loe given up the lead in the 8th inning?

NYJER MORGAN!!!!

[LON]

NYJER MORGAN!!!!

Tony Plush!

[BrewCity83]

This weekend series with the Cards is shaping up to be a big one.  Although it's still really early, the Brewers are hot right now and could take the division lead.  It'll be fun to watch how this shapes up.

[mugrad2006]

This weekend series with the Cards is shaping up to be a big one.  Although it's still really early, the Brewers are hot right now and could take the division lead.  It'll be fun to watch how this shapes up.

It's a lot of fun to be watching the Crew in June and having this much excitement over a series, not just because of the opponent but because of the division implications.

Here's to hoping we hear a lot of complaining from LaRussa et. al on the swagger Braun and Prince showed over the weekend come Monday morning.

[GGGG]

Braun and Fielder hold nothing on Morgan these days...he apparently didn't remember what inning they were in last night.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Nyjer-Morgan-doesn-t-realize-it-s-9th-inning-unt?urn=mlb-wp8998

[GGGG]

More Nyjer Morgan.  What a goof.

http://deadspin.com/5810351/

[mosarsour]

I love that kid's energy! That was an amazing win for the Crew last night!

[mugrad2006]

More Nyjer Morgan.  What a goof.

http://deadspin.com/5810351/

That's not Nyjer Morgan.  That's Tony Plush.