NL Central Pissing Match - 2011

[NavinRJohnson]

believe it or not, there are times when I, as a Brewers fan, don't agree with everything the Cubs fans say.

So...when they say something stupid and inaccurate, they shouldn't be called on it?

[foreverwarriors]

So...when they say something stupid and inaccurate, they shouldn't be called on it?

they can be called on it all you want...999 times out of 1000, you aren't going to change their opinion. They'll still think Ryan Braun is an arrogant punk just like I'll still think Jay Cutler is a whiny china-doll who quit on his team.

edit: I'm not saying people shouldn't argue things like this...but you've really gone overkill on this topic...you're repeating yourself consistently and coming across as a whiny Brewers fan ...

[TallTitan34]

Braun seems to be a great guy off the field.  I believe on Veterans Day he let's vets eat free at his restaurant. 

[shiloh26]

they can be called on it all you want...999 times out of 1000, you aren't going to change their opinion. They'll still think Ryan Braun is an arrogant punk just like I'll still think Jay Cutler is a whiny china-doll who quit on his team.

edit: I'm not saying people shouldn't argue things like this...but you've really gone overkill on this topic...you're repeating yourself consistently and coming across as a whiny Brewers fan ...

I dunno, not to speak for Navin, but I think that's what he was trying to do: show that its just an opinion.  Braun as arrogant punk was being presented as fact, or at least that it was ridiculous to have a different opinion, but really it is an opinion based on not a ton of evidence.  But a guy gets a rep, he gets a rep, I guess. 

All I care about is that he seems like a great teammate.  I would probably characterize him as a bit cocky on the field, but a team like the Brewers needs a little cockiness.  I think "strutting around like he is a baseball god" is just a tad excessive, but yeah, he is a little cocky and I think every team needs a bit of an edge like that.  Not a bad thing, again, as has been noted. 

Not to re-hijack, (or unhijack) but even though I love Braun, his contract made no sense to me timing wise.  I still haven't heard a good argument about why it was a good idea to extend him for 5 years 105MM when we have him under contract for 4 years.  That discussion was unnecessary for another 2 years at least.  I see way too much risk built into that extensive of a commitment, and am not happy with him starting in on this huge contract when he's 32. 

Note, that opinion has nothing to do with my opinion of Braun; I own a Braun jersey and routinely flip my pen when I'm done writing notes  .  Still don't like the extension.

[wadesworld]

For the record, I think Ryan Braun is a cocky baseball player.  Like TT said, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  Which is why I do NOT consider him an arrogant punk/prick (I think there is a big difference between this and a cocky baseball player).  I think being cocky comes with the territory.  To be a star professional baseball (or any other sport) player you almost HAVE to be cocky.  Where I think players become arrogant punks/pricks is when it is to a level that is noticeably different from other players of the same caliber.  I truly do not believe Ryan Braun is at this level.  Early on his career he was, but come on, he was young and excited to be where he was.  He did not know better and knew nothing other than being "the man" because that's what he had been in baseball for his whole life.  Now that he is a veteran he has learned what is within reason and what is not.

I have never seen "on field altercations" or "on field trash talk" from Ryan Braun.  I may just not remember them, but I really don't remember any.  I can't recall a time when he's ever been involved in any sort of scuffle between players.  I have heard he is a good guy.  He has a swagger about him, but he is a professional baseball player.

EDIT:  Also, not that this completely makes a player cocky or not cocky, but the fact that he agreed to an 8 year, $45 million deal with the Brewers when EVERYONE knew that he could get MUCH more if he could wait to be a free agent, and the fact that he extended in MILWAUKEE, a small market, midwest team for a guy from Southern California, for 5 more years shows that he truly is not all about himself.  His first contract allowed flexibility for the Brewers.  He is a team player first.  Not many players would do what he has done for the Brewers.  The guy wants to win and he truly appreciates the Brewers fans and organization.  To me, he has been a class act and a great face of the franchise.

[NavinRJohnson]

EDIT:  Also, not that this completely makes a player cocky or not cocky, but the fact that he agreed to an 8 year, $45 million deal with the Brewers when EVERYONE knew that he could get MUCH more if he could wait to be a free agent, and the fact that he extended in MILWAUKEE, a small market, midwest team for a guy from Southern California, for 5 more years shows that he truly is not all about himself.  His first contract allowed flexibility for the Brewers.  He is a team player first.  Not many players would do what he has done for the Brewers.  The guy wants to win and he truly appreciates the Brewers fans and organization.  To me, he has been a class act and a great face of the franchise.

Well said.

I came here to post that these pud whacks can think whatever the hell they want. They're wrong, plain and simple.

Getting back to the contract, they posted a graphic during the game tonight (seconds before Braun launched a three run HR, put his head down and rounded the bases). Since he made his debut on 5/25/2007, his MLB ranks are as follows:

Hits - 2nd
Runs - 2nd
Total Bases -2nd
Extra Base hits - 2nd
RBI - 6th
HR - 8th

The contract extension is good for the Brewers and good for Braun, who has been more about the Milwaukee Brewers, than he has Ryan Braun since he's been here.

You jealous Cub fans can think whatever you want about Braun, Tom Brady, or any other young, rich, good looking, gifted athlete with great hair who bangs models. When you're wrong, you're wrong.

[MUBurrow]

The contract extension is good for the Brewers and good for Braun, who has been more about the Milwaukee Brewers, than he has Ryan Braun since he's been here.

This is getting a little lovey-dovey on the whole Ryan Braun cares more about the Brewers than Ryan Braun thing. If thats true, he's stupid. He's a professional athlete who is making his livelihood off his body, and before this contract I liked to think that the Brewers would do what's right for the Brewers, not Ryan Braun.

Sure his current deal is incredibly team friendly, but I think that has more to do with he and his agent being risk averse than getting wood over Milwaukee.  When that deal was signed, it bought out all of his arbitration years, and wasn't a sure thing for the Crew at the time. A great deal given all the Brewers knew at the time? Absolutely. But to assert Ryan Braun signed that for the good of the honest people of Milwaukee is horsecrap.  He didn't sign that for the Brewers, he signed that because it meant he would be able to live the rest of his life off a contract that was signed VERY early into his career by baseball standards.  

[NavinRJohnson]

But to assert Ryan Braun signed that for the good of the honest people of Milwaukee is horsecrap.  

Show me one person who has made that assertion. Of course he is benefiting greatly from all of this, but so is the team. He could have gone the route Fielder is/has, which I have absolutely no problem with, and gotten paid just as much, if not more. He didn't. He took care of himself by simultaneously taking care of the the team.

[MUBurrow]

apples to oranges. Fielder didn't have the opportunity Braun did because there was huge risk his knees would have broken down by now. The same reason the Brewers are paying Braun now and not Fielder is why Fielder couldn't have gone the Braun route. (I understand that to say that Fielder couldn't do what Braun did isn't a good logical counterpoint to the idea that Braun could have done what Fielder did)
I overreacted, my bad. That came from the frustration over the idea that to bash the contract has been answered with "what do you have against Ryan Braun?" in my Brewer circles.  I'm just saying that because the first team-friendly deal has been referenced by most experts as a big rationale for the rich extension (a 'good faith' type of thing) I think that when analyzing the extension, its important to keep in mind that Braun took care of Braun while Melvin took care of the Brewers in the first deal. They might have conveniently overlapped, but I don't think either side was looking out for the other. Its tough to see the extension that way though, because from a strictly fiscal standpoint, it really is irresponsible from the Brewers, in my opinion.

[MUfan12]

Fun little anecdote from tonight's game.

Some girl in the crowd had a sign that said "Marry me Ryan" and put her cell number on it.

After the game, Braun tried to call and her voicemail was full. Awesome.

[NavinRJohnson]

apples to oranges. Fielder didn't have the opportunity Braun did because there was huge risk his knees would have broken down by now. The same reason the Brewers are paying Braun now and not Fielder is why Fielder couldn't have gone the Braun route.

Untrue. The Brewers already offered Fielder a $100M contract (last year I believe), that he turned down.

[MUBurrow]

but thats not even close to the same situation, either in the risk taken on by the club or in the player's "doing what's best for the team"  

First, that team friendly deal that Braun has been applauded for was never offered to Fielder.  The reason Braun's agent agreed to that deal was because of how early in his career it was offered and how many arbitration years it bought out.

Second, I thought that the argument was Braun was doing what's best for the team by not going the Fielder route. Then yet you're (if I'm reading you right, which I admit I may not be) arguing that Braun and Fielder were offered similar deals - which I also disagree with because Fielder's was offered only a year out from him hitting the open market and bought out only one arbitration years, and provided much more certainty as to a) what type of Fielder would be when he hit the market and b) what the market would bring for him. This as opposed to Braun's deal which projects what type of decline he will have in five years then offers him a contract assuming basically none.

edit for me being an idiot and saying no arbitration years when it would clearly be one

[🏀]

FanGraphs take...

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-ryan-brauns-extensions-worse-than-ryan-howards/

[NavinRJohnson]

FanGraphs take...

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-ryan-brauns-extensions-worse-than-ryan-howards/

That "analysis" is just plain stupid as it is based on a completely faulty premise, that "they don't have to sign the guy since they already have him for two more years." While that is true, the only risk they seem to want to look at is the last couple years of the contract. What about the years in between? What about the risk of losing the guy altogether by letting him hit the open market? Hanging onto a great player comes with a price. Would Ryan Braun or Ryan Howard give up their Free Agency for significantly less (seemingly 2-3 years and $30-$50M) than what the signed, that would make those contracts "good?" Of course not. What's in it for them to do so? Some security if they have a couple of bad years I suppose, but it isn't going to happen.

I believe Albert Pujols will end up staying in StL, but his leaving is a possibility since they weren't able to lock him up when they had the chance. If he walks away, would signing him to a deal through is 32-36 year old years a couple years ago have been a bad contract? No. I realize that kind of argues the other side, that you don't have to sign him, but I also think he is a unique case, and he will sign a new deal next year before he hits the open market anyway.

[MUBurrow]

Again, I disagree and think that analysis is spot on, but I'm sounding like a broken record. I really don't understand what risk you are alluding to with Braun or Howard. He doesn't hit the open market until after 2015 - I think you're granting the temptation of free agency being 2 years away as opposed to 5 too much value.  
Do you think that 3 years from now, Braun would have signed the same extension he did today if it were put in front of him? I absolutely do. But even if you don't and think it would take a little more, how much more is the uncertainty of the next three years worth? If 3 years from now, he signs a 5 year $115 million extension, I think thats a better deal for the brewers because 3 years of certainty only cost you $10 million.  When it comes to a guy I'm evidently willing to pay more than $20 million/year, I'll take a $2 million/year uncertainty premium all day long.

[wadesworld]

Here is a reason the extension works.  Ryan Braun's career numbers vs. NL Central opponents:

vs. Houston: .348 BA, 1.098 OPS, 49 runs, 20 home runs, 58 RBI in 57 games
vs. St. Louis: .330 BA, .963 OPS, 40 runs, 13 home runs, 40 RBI in 56 games
vs. Chicago: .326 BA, .915 OPS, 42 runs, 10 home runs, 47 RBI in 60 games (59 started)
vs. Pittsburgh: .315 BA, .991 OPS, 55 runs, 16 home runs, 57 RBI in 59 games (58 started)
vs. Cincinnati: .267 BA, .837 OPS, 44 runs, 13 home runs, 31 RBI in 61 games (60 started)

Wow.  Those are some ridiculous numbers.

That could also be why other teams/fans hate Ryan Braun.  Again, I think he is cocky, but not to the point where he is an arrogant punk/prick.

And if he keeps up those numbers against NL Central teams, his extension will have been a steal.

Do you think that 3 years from now, Braun would have signed the same extension he did today if it were put in front of him? I absolutely do.

If he continues to play like he has throughout his career so far?  Absolutely not.  If we wait until he's going into his free agent year and he's still 1 of the top 5 players in the MLB, there is no way he signs a 5 year, $105 million deal.  And I couldn't blame him for not.  The Cardinals probably felt the same way about Pujols.  "We don't need to extend him right now, he's played his entire career here.  We can wait until he's going into his contract year and offer $100 million and we'll be set."  Going into his contract year: "You want WHAT?  TWO HUNDRED MILLION?!  We'll talk after the season."  Lock them up while you can.

[🏀]

And if he keeps up those numbers against NL Central teams, his extension will have been a steal.

There are zero circumstances where an extension, that many years early, for those dollars, at those ages is a steal for any team or any player. If you think that about Braun you're a dumbass homer.

[wadesworld]

There are zero circumstances where an extension, that many years early, for those dollars, at those ages is a steal for any team or any player. If you think that about Braun you're a dumbass homer.

Just like I would've been had I been a Cards fan and thought Pujols would just resign with us because we're the Cards and he's played here his whole life and there's no way he could be this productive by the end of his contract.  Oh wait...

[GGGG]

So after three weeks, the Brewers, Cardinals and Reds are equally mediocre...and the Clubs slightly less so.

[wadesworld]

So after three weeks, the Brewers, Cardinals and Reds are equally mediocre...and the Clubs slightly less so.

Yup.  Good thing the Brewers still have a Cy Young winner coming back and Corey Hart.  Hart is going to help more than I think most people expect.  I like Carlos Gomez's speed, but Cargo should be nowhere near the top 5 in the lineup.  Getting Hart into the 2 spot will be great for the offense.  Then there really is no hole in the lineup in spots 1-5, and 6 and 7 are very good for being 6 and 7 hitters (Bettencort and Gomez/Morgan when he comes back).

[whodem]

Yup.  Good thing the Brewers still have a Cy Young winner coming back and Corey Hart.  Hart is going to help more than I think most people expect.  I like Carlos Gomez's speed, but Cargo should be nowhere near the top 5 in the lineup.  Getting Hart into the 2 spot will be great for the offense.  Then there really is no hole in the lineup in spots 1-5, and 6 and 7 are very good for being 6 and 7 hitters (Bettencort and Gomez/Morgan when he comes back).

I would put Hart 5 or 6. I keep Gomez in the second spot right now.  Either he cools down and Morgan takes over, or he keeps this up.  Either way and effective two slot hitter deepens this lineup a lot.

[shiloh26]

Yup.  Good thing the Brewers still have a Cy Young winner coming back and Corey Hart.  Hart is going to help more than I think most people expect.  I like Carlos Gomez's speed, but Cargo should be nowhere near the top 5 in the lineup.  Getting Hart into the 2 spot will be great for the offense.  Then there really is no hole in the lineup in spots 1-5, and 6 and 7 are very good for being 6 and 7 hitters (Bettencort and Gomez/Morgan when he comes back).

I agree with the general sentiment, but Betancourt is not a good hitter at any spot in the lineup.  Honestly, he's been a godawful offensive player his entire career.  If Gomez wasn't 25 and having come off a pretty good week where he's had a lot of nice at bats, and looks to have toned down that stupid uppercut swing (I like to hold out hope for him), I'd say the same for him.  Guys that consistently produce sub .300 OBP's are just producing way too many outs to provide much value offensively. 

Obviously, getting Greinke and Hart back is going to be huge.  Right now Braun and Fielder is the best 3-4 in the game, and Hart should give them even more opportunities to drive in runs.  Greinke is slotting into an already solid rotation.  So happy that Wolf and Narveson have stepped up and let him come back without feeling like he has to press.  I'm also been very happy with Lucroy's play since he's been back.  Looks like he's getting much more comfortable hitting major league pitching, which I'm very excited about.  If he can hit .270 and take some walks down at the bottom of the order, which he looks capable of, he's going to provide value down there that the Brewers haven't had in years. 

I think Hart strikes out too much as a 2 hitter, but he takes more walks than he used to so maybe I'm wrong.  And, I have to believe that hitting in front of Braun and Prince is probably the best protection a guy can have. In my dream world, Gomez reins it in, or Morgan has a come back year and eats up those 2 at bats, and Hart slides back behind McGehee.  That's a really fast, aggressive 1-2, and then a power hitting 3-6 that doesn't give up average anywhere except potentially Hart.  Betancourt can afford to suck if that's the top of the lineup.   

[Benny B]

I would put Hart 5 or 6. I keep Gomez in the second spot right now.  Either he cools down and Morgan takes over, or he keeps this up.  Either way and effective two slot hitter deepens this lineup a lot.

From Webster's Dictionary:

Carlos Gomez (KAR-lows GO-mez): one who, when he/she is on the verge of being demoted, does just enough to get taken off that list, but once off the list, becomes mediocre until he/she is back on the list.

Nyjer isn't going to hit >.350 all year, but I see his presence and gameplay as an inspiration to the rest of the team.  Who doesn't want to see

Corey needs to bat behind Casey until he finds his groove... how many times have Prince and Casey been LOB this year so far?  At least two games have been left on the table because the Brewers' 6-hole couldn't deliver.  You could have moved Lucroy to 6, but then 7-8-9 would have been a deadzone.

Either way you slice it, Corey Hart - if he returns to his productive form - is going to be a major boon to the lineup no matter where he goes.  I'm sure DM already has his sights set on SS candidates at the trade deadline.

[MUBurrow]

I think it'll be interesting to see if once Hart comes back and bats 6 behind McGehee, you see Lucroy get bumped to 7 and Betancourt drop to 8.  Having Betancourt ahead of Lucroy is fine now, since McGehee/Kotsay doesn't really have the speed necessary to make Lucroy's singles that much more valuable run scoring-wise than Yuniesky's violent flailing.  But when Hart comes in and provides 20+ steal speed, Lucroy's aptitude with the bat (which for average is clearly trending higher than Betancourt's) might enable the manufacturing of some runs at the tail end of that lineup. (which, with Betancourt hanging around, I would take a manufactured run every other or every third game out of the 7-8-9 all day)

[Hards Alumni]

Make no mistake, Hart will come back and be batting second immediately.