NL Central Pissing Match - 2011

[Spotcheck Billy]

[MerrittsMustache]

This isn't the argument at all.  The argument is if Braun is cocky.  Yes, he is.

I don't get why it's so hard to admit a player is cocky.  Michael Jordan, Ryan Braun, Jim Edmonds, Manny Ramirez, Alfonso Soriano, Travis Diener, Dave Bolland, are all cocky players.  Most of them are on teams I cheer for.

Why can't you Brewers fans open your eyes and see everyone on your team isn't a saint?  There's nothing wrong with it.  Every team has them.

Titan - I've figured out our problem. We're trying to have a logical discussion with illogical people. I used to think Navin was a decent poster when it came to MU but it's seeming quite obvious that when it comes to the Brewers, he's a dumbass.

[TallTitan34]

Agreed.

[NavinRJohnson]

This isn't the argument at all.  The argument is if Braun is cocky.  Yes, he is.

Actually, the term first mentioned, by you BTW, is arrogant punk. I have implored both you and Tall Titan to provide some sort of factual evidence to support that claim, and you have provided none. You have provided your opinions of how he walks around, a false claim that he admitted that he was cocky, and charges against others of simply being biased. Case in point...

Titan - I've figured out our problem. We're trying to have a logical discussion with illogical people. I used to think Navin was a decent poster when it came to MU but it's seeming quite obvious that when it comes to the Brewers, he's a dumbass.

Who can argue with logic like that?

Again, waiting impatiently for any sort of objective evidence, video, audio, quote...anything beside your disapproval of him flipping his bat after drawing a walk to support your claim that Braun is an "arrogant punk."

But hey, when you can't win the argument, just call the other side names.

[MerrittsMustache]

Actually, the term first mentioned, by you BTW, is arrogant punk. I have implored both you and Tall Titan to provide some sort of factual evidence to support that claim, and you have provided none. You have provided your opinions of how he walks around, a false claim that he admitted that he was cocky, and charges against others of simply being biased. Case in point...

Who can argue with logic like that?

Again, waiting impatiently for any sort of objective evidence, video, audio, quote...anything beside your disapproval of him flipping his bat after drawing a walk to support your claim that Braun is an "arrogant punk."

But hey, when you can't win the argument, just call the other side names.

Since you missed it the first time...

A few examples...He struts around like he invented the game, he's a hot dog, he flips his bat away at times when he draws a walk, he has had altercations with several teams over his on-field antics, particularly his HR celebrations/trots, he talks trash on the field, and last but not least...he wears Ed Hardy-esque t-shirts.

Also, I asked that you Google "Ryan Braun arrogant" and see what comes up. I assume you didn't otherwise you'd see that Titan and I aren't the only ones who find this to be true.

I'm out!

Happy Easter!

[MUBurrow]

nm

[BrewCity83]

To me there's a big difference between calling someone an arrogant prick or an arrogant punk (both terms which you guys brought up) and calling someone cocky.  I think it's just fine to be a bit cocky in sports, especially when you can back it up with your talent.  But I don't like arrogant pricks.  

I will grant that Braun can be cocky.  An arrogant prick?  Nope.

[TallTitan34]

My apoligies.  I considered arrogant and cocky the same thing.  Everytime I said cocky in past posts, please replace it with arrogant.

[NavinRJohnson]

Since you missed it the first time...

A few examples...He struts around like he invented the game (your opinion. Please provide some evidence of this), he's a hot dog (your opinion. Please provide some evidence of this), he flips his bat away at times when he draws a walk (your opinion. Please provide some evidence of this.), he has had altercations with several teams over his on-field antics (show me one altercation that was caused by his on-field antics), particularly his HR celebrations/trots (let's see them. I showed you plenty where he simply headed to first base, and conceded the Brandon Backe (last) one three years ago. Please show me just one.), he talks trash on the field (please provide evidence of this - anything outside of the Dempster incident, that anyone would concede he was barking, based on Dempster trying to put one in his ear hole the previous at bat,, would be great.), and last but not least...he wears Ed Hardy-esque t-shirts.

Also, I asked that you Google "Ryan Braun arrogant" and see what comes up. I assume you didn't otherwise you'd see that Titan and I aren't the only ones who find this to be true our Cub fan opinion.

Fixed (Flips mouse away to the side, and struts slowly away from keyboard, admiring his post)!

[foreverwarriors]

LOL. I'm biased, and that's where this is all coming from? Whatever you say. I have presented facts and visual evidence to back up my claim. What have you offered up? Your own interpretation of things...

Why don't you go ahead and show me where in that article (which was written two years ago, BTW) that Braun "admits to being cocky." I'll save you the trouble, its not there.

From the article:

'Braun knows he walks that fine line between being confident and cocky.

"I definitely straddle that line, I do. I recognize that," the Brewers left fielder said. "My intent's never to disrespect anybody, never to show anybody up."'

Straddling requires coming down on both sides...there are times he's confident, there are times he's cocky...its not only a delicate line, but a completely objective one as well.

I do see a difference between arrogance and cockiness. I see arrogance as being undeservedly cocky. Braun to me is just the right level of cocky for what he has accomplished.

[TallTitan34]

How is Braun flipping his bat and strutting around an opinion?  It happens.  They are facts.  Saying he is a hot dog is an opinion.  The other two are not.

The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.  Is that just an opinion or did it happen?

[GGGG]

I'm a Brewer fan.  I know Braun is cocky.  I am also a Packer fan.  I know Aaron Rodgers is cocky. 

And I honestly don't care.

[TallTitan34]

The caption of this photo:
Brewers leftfielder Ryan Braun flips his bat after taking a pitch for ball four.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/antlers2/5627806391/in/photostream

Based on the guys other Brewer game pictures this comment comes from a Brewer fan!

[TallTitan34]

I'm a Brewer fan.  I know Braun is cocky.  I am also a Packer fan.  I know Aaron Rodgers is cocky. 

And I honestly don't care.

EXACTLY!  And you shouldn't care.  There is nothing wrong with having a guy like that on your team.  But at least admit it.

Thank you Sultan.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.  Is that just an opinion or did it happen?

I think someone disagrees with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI

[TallTitan34]

I think someone disagrees with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI

Haha I was hoping someone would post this.

[GGGG]

And honestly, don't you think that the three goggles are a little cocky...and the screaming of "AND ONE!!!" when that opportunity arises???

That is honestly part of sports today.

[NavinRJohnson]

How is Braun flipping his bat and strutting around an opinion?  It happens.  They are facts.  Saying he is a hot dog is an opinion.  The other two are not.

Depends on your definition I guess. Fine. He flipped his bat. Was there intent behind it? Was it done in a way to show up the pitcher, draw attention to himself? I don't know that, and neither do you, but you are choosing to be offended by it. That's where the opinion that he's arrogant comes in.

Strutting around is a statement of fact? Saying he walks around the field would be a statement of fact, claiming that walking is "strutting around like he is a baseball god" is an obvious statement of opinion (by a Cub fan). C'mon, you're smarter than that.

[NavinRJohnson]

I'm a Brewer fan.  I know Braun is cocky.  I am also a Packer fan.  I know Aaron Rodgers is cocky. 

Do you consider either one of those guys arrogant punks? That's what this is about. The Cub fans among us clearly believe so, as they have said so.

[foreverwarriors]

I'm a Brewer fan.  I know Braun is cocky.  I am also a Packer fan.  I know Aaron Rodgers is cocky. 

And I honestly don't care.

+1

Depends on your definition I guess. Fine. He flipped his bat. Was there intent behind it? Was it done in a way to show up the pitcher, draw attention to himself? I don't know that, and neither do you, but you are choosing to be offended by it. That's where the opinion that he's arrogant comes in.

Strutting around is a statement of fact? Saying he walks around the field would be a statement of fact, claiming that walking is "strutting around like he is a baseball god" is an obvious statement of opinion (by a Cub fan). C'mon, you're smarter than that.

Navin...what is it exactly that you are trying to prove? What position are you trying to take? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? and this is an honest question...I've been reading the entire thread and have now gotten to the point where I actually don't understand what you are trying to accomplish...

[GGGG]

Do you consider either one of those guys arrogant punks? That's what this is about. The Cub fans among us clearly believe so, as they have said so.

*I* don't consider them arrogant punks, but they are on my teams.  If they think that way, that's their deal.

[TallTitan34]

Even as a Bears fan I found the imaginary title belt to be awesome.  Definatly arrogant, but awesome.  But hey he backed his crap up and took home the title.

[foreverwarriors]

Do you consider either one of those guys arrogant punks? That's what this is about. The Cub fans among us clearly believe so, as they have said so.

believe it or not, there are times when I, as a Brewers fan, don't agree with everything the Cubs fans say. Similar to how Bears or Vikings fans might not always agree with what I say about their players...

[NavinRJohnson]

Navin...what is it exactly that you are trying to prove? What position are you trying to take? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? and this is an honest question...I've been reading the entire thread and have now gotten to the point where I actually don't understand what you are trying to accomplish...

I am trying to demonstrate that Ryan Braun is anything but an "arrogant punk." That they guy has a reputation (mostly among Cub fans) that he absolutely does not deserve, based on a couple of incidents. 1) He made a huge mistake after a HR against Brandon Backe in 2008, and Ned Yost tore him a new one as a result, and he hasn't done it since. 2) He took heat for the Dempster thing, fueled largely by frankly irresponsible comments by Bob Brenly who was too stupid or too Cubbed to connect the dots back to the previous AB, that would have upset any MLB hitter. 3) He took offense when Jeff Karstens drilled him intentionally back in 2009? Why, because Braun had the audacity to hit a HR off of him in his previous AB.

I have begged and pleaded all afternoon for someone to provide some sort of evidence, something, anything  that exposes this obvious pattern of "arrogant punk" behavior. What I have received in return is false statements and Cub fans' opinions on him (see Dempster incident above), and one picture of him "flipping his bat" after a walk.

I stated that he puts his head down and runs to first after a HR. The response I got was, "Wow." I then was able to demonstrate the truth behind my claim by providing double digit examples of him doing just that over the past two seasons.

My point. If someone wants to make a claim that someone is an arrogant punk, they best be able to back it up.

[cheebs09]

I don't think anyone is denying Braun is cocky. I think we are disagreeing that he is an arrogant asshat who should keep his mouth shut when people throw at his head. He's passionate and sometimes the other team views that as him showing them up I guess, but I don't think I've seen him go out of his way to show up a team outside of early in his career and Yost screamed at him for it and it doesn't seem to be an issue.

If people are talking about off the field, I have heard he is both an arrogant person and he is down to earth and was very nice when they've spoken with them. Those also aren't from team sponsored functions like an autograph session where he may just be "putting on a show" for the people there. I guess it's all about where you catch him and what mood he's in. Goodness that sounds like a human being.