MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Avenue Commons on February 07, 2022, 09:45:17 AM
-
Jimmy F’ing Butler has been named to his 6th All-Star team on top of his list of other accolades. Can’t imagine there are many players who make 6 All-Star teams and don’t get the nod.
Thoughts?
-
I mean, sure, maybe. Basketball Hall of fame is pretty easy to get into, they'll count his college career as well.
-
JFB's college career didn't come with many accolades though. Honorable mention All BE for two years...and that's about it.
-
JFB's college career didn't come with many accolades though. Honorable mention All BE for two years...and that's about it.
He earned the F middle initial. How many players can say that?
-
Notable guys with 6 or more all star games but no hall of fame are Amar'e Stoudemire, Jermaine O'Neal, and Shawn Kemp. Joe Johnson has 7 and is just becoming eligible, and I'm not sure he's a lock.
-
Jimmy F’ing Butler has been named to his 6th All-Star team on top of his list ther accolades. Can’t imagine there are many players who make 6 All-Star teams and don’t get the nod.
Thoughts?
There's a handful of 6 time All Stars not in the HoF, but it appears all 7+ time all stars are in.
-
There's a handful of 6 time All Stars not in the HoF, but it appears all 7+ time all stars are in.
Someone called Larry Foust made 8 all star games in the 50s and is not in, pretty much only him though. Just go again next year and you can basically not worry about it.
-
Notable guys with 6 or more all star games but no hall of fame are Amar'e Stoudemire, Jermaine O'Neal, and Shawn Kemp. Joe Johnson has 7 and is just becoming eligible, and I'm not sure he's a lock.
Stoudamire and O'Neal were really good players for awhile. Shawn Kemp was a very bright light for a relatively brief moment.
(https://c.tenor.com/0EO1SO02mB0AAAAM/shawn-kemp.gif)
-
Notable guys with 6 or more all star games but no hall of fame are Amar'e Stoudemire, Jermaine O'Neal, and Shawn Kemp. Joe Johnson has 7 and is just becoming eligible, and I'm not sure he's a lock.
If JFB had a bunch of injuries or his career fizzled starting now, I would say he would fit in on that list. So long as he keeps going at this level another 3+ years, he should be good.
-
Miami has a pretty loaded roster this year. If they win it all he will be without question.
-
JFB's college career didn't come with many accolades though. Honorable mention All BE for two years...and that's about it.
Am I misremembering or did Jimmy’s college career look much better to the advanced stat guys than the guys who vote for that sort of thing?
-
Would feel bad for the victims of the "F" in his middle name while he was at Marquette if he got that recognition. Least favorite MU player by a long shot.
-
Miami has a pretty loaded roster this year. If they win it all he will be without question.
Yeah a healthy Miami is clear top 2 in the east(if the Nets stay imploded). So a shot at a ring is def on the table again.
Get that and hes locked in.
-
Am I misremembering or did Jimmy’s college career look much better to the advanced stat guys than the guys who vote for that sort of thing?
Could be. He just did a ton of basketball stuff really well and never really stood out at one particular thing. Was never the leading scorer on his teams either.
-
Least favorite MU player by a long shot.
Really? Why? I loved the guy. Still do.
-
Really? Why? I loved the guy. Still do.
He was not a good human being in his time at Marquette, to put it lightly.
-
Am I misremembering or did Jimmy’s college career look much better to the advanced stat guys than the guys who vote for that sort of thing?
According to at least one advanced stat guy (Valueaddbasketball), he was the 5th best player in the country his junior year (48th his senior year). Jimmy was likely undervalued because so much of his value came on the defensive side on the ball and on his ability to get to the free throw line, two things that are very important but not as sexy as scoring and rebounding stats.
As all MU fans know, he was Jimmy Fing Butler for a reason.
-
According to at least one advanced stat guy (Valueaddbasketball), he was the 5th best player in the country his junior year (48th his senior year). Jimmy was likely undervalued because so much of his value came on the defensive side on the ball and on his ability to get to the free throw line, two things that are very important but not as sexy as scoring and rebounding stats.
As all MU fans know, he was Jimmy Fing Butler for a reason.
One of those advanced stat guys had Jae Crowder number one. Then Jae went in second round…….
Jae proved that guy right. He is a rock solid NBA contributor.
-
One of those advanced stat guys had Jae Crowder number one. Then Jae went in second round…….
Jae proved that guy right. He is a rock solid NBA contributor.
A friend of mine who models draft picks had Jae at 12. That year Jae was his biggest outlier from the conventional projections.
-
At this point I feel like he's in the "hall of very good for a long time" but not quite hall of fame.
His number one career comp on basketball reference is Kawhi Leonard who will be a hall of famer...but Kawhi has two rings, two finals MVPs and two defensive POYs under his belt. Jimmy doesn't have any of those. And while it might not be his fault for not having a ring or a finals MVP, things like that matter for HOF consideration.
I think a ring or two and a finals MVP would go a long way to getting Jimmy in.
-
I would say no, but he's had a better career than Sidney Moncrief who is in the HoF. So maybe.
-
I mean, he ain't done yet guys. It's certainly within reach.
-
At this point I feel like he's in the "hall of very good for a long time" but not quite hall of fame.
His number one career comp on basketball reference is Kawhi Leonard who will be a hall of famer...but Kawhi has two rings, two finals MVPs and two defensive POYs under his belt. Jimmy doesn't have any of those. And while it might not be his fault for not having a ring or a finals MVP, things like that matter for HOF consideration.
I think a ring or two and a finals MVP would go a long way to getting Jimmy in.
Sheesh. Jimmy is very good, but he is not Kawhi. Kawhi has been arguably the best basketball player in the world a number of different years. Jimmy has been somewhere between the 10th best and maybe like 30th best in the NBA in his prime.
-
Sheesh. Jimmy is very good, but he is not Kawhi. Kawhi has been arguably the best basketball player in the world a number of different years. Jimmy has been somewhere between the 10th best and maybe like 30th best in the NBA in his prime.
Yeah I think the win shares added methodology they use to generate comps can create some pretty odd matchups. I mean, Jimmy's number two 10 year comp is Horace Grant which is doubly odd since Horace played a different position and their games were totally different in pretty much every way.
I don't know, maybe I'd be comfortable with saying that Jimmy is a poor man's version of Kawhi? (but def not poor since he's on a max contract)
-
I would say no, but he's had a better career than Sidney Moncrief who is in the HoF. So maybe.
He has?
-
Really? Why? I loved the guy. Still do.
I'm kinda in-between.
Loved him at MU. Very lukewarm on him as a pro.
-
I lean toward yes.
-
Really? Why? I loved the guy. Still do.
He's cocky and brash and has played on teams that are rivals to many Eastern Conference teams that many here like. Also a bunch of people apparently are old school and think his actions in Minnesota were pearl clutching worthy. Dude is a leader and his teammates in Miami love him and get fired up by him, so that speaks volumes.
Amar'e would have been a lock if not for injuries. He got all those ASG and All-NBA appearances before age 30.
I think Jimmy's first 2-3 seasons being a bench/role player definitely hurt him. But pick up another few 1-2 All NBA nods, another ASG next year, he's looking pretty tough for it.
I mean, Chris Webber just got in and I think Jimmy has had a better career than Webber. Maurice Cheeks got in a few years ago and Jimmy's unquestionably had a better career than him, outside of a ring. Hell, Bob Dandrige has 2 rings, but thats literally all he has over Jimmy.
-
He has?
I thought "no way" when I read that, but I went back and compared the stats (just the basic ppg, rpg, apg), and Jimmy is slightly better in all three. And while Sidney was better defensively (2x DPOY), Jimmy is no slouch on that end with several all-defensive team awards. On balance, I'd say it's pretty close to a wash.
And to me, Jimmy is probably in. Not a lock, but well better than 50-50.
-
He's cocky and brash and has played on teams that are rivals to many Eastern Conference teams that many here like. Also a bunch of people apparently are old school and think his actions in Minnesota were pearl clutching worthy. Dude is a leader and his teammates in Miami love him and get fired up by him, so that speaks volumes.
The Bucks are my favorite professional team across all sports and I love Jimmy. I loved him as a Bull. I gained respect for him on how he barrelled out of Minny. I knew Philly made a mistake letting him walk and I am not at all surprised by the success in Miami.
-
I thought "no way" when I read that, but I went back and compared the stats (just the basic ppg, rpg, apg), and Jimmy is slightly better in all three. And while Sidney was better defensively (2x DPOY), Jimmy is no slouch on that end with several all-defensive team awards. On balance, I'd say it's pretty close to a wash.
And to me, Jimmy is probably in. Not a lock, but well better than 50-50.
The advanced stats give Jimmy a slight edge. Jimmy has more win shares, a higher win share per 48 minutes, and a higher value over replacement player. They're all pretty close, but Jimmy owns the lead.
The accolades are also pretty close. Jimmy was just chosen for his 6th all star game, compared to 5 for Moncrief. Jimmy also has a great chance to make his 5th All NBA team this year, which would tie Moncrief. And you already covered their defensive accomplishments.
They are very, very close but I think Jimmy has the edge. And Jimmy still has time to add to his career, which could make the difference more pronounced.
-
The is no NBA Hall of Fame. It's the Basketball Hall of Fame. Still, Jimmy's college accomplishments will not have a huge impact on whether he's honored.
IMHO, Jimmy would be seen as Borderline now but would be close to a lock with another 2-3 years at this level.
The process for enshrinement in basketball is nothing like that of the Baseball HoF. It's more like the way the veteran's committee makes its baseball selections -- there's a 24-person panel that consists of "Hall of Famers, basketball executives and administrators, members of the media, and other experts in the game of basketball." Candidates need 18 votes to get in the Hall.
-
Notable guys with 6 or more all star games but no hall of fame are Amar'e Stoudemire, Jermaine O'Neal, and Shawn Kemp. Joe Johnson has 7 and is just becoming eligible, and I'm not sure he's a lock.
Joe Johnson just signed a 10 day contract recently. I wonder if that "resets" his eligibility for the HoF.
One of the most underrated scorers in NBA history.
-
The is no NBA Hall of Fame. It's the Basketball Hall of Fame. Still, Jimmy's college accomplishments will not have a huge impact on whether he's honored.
IMHO, Jimmy would be seen as Borderline now but would be close to a lock with another 2-3 years at this level.
The process for enshrinement in basketball is nothing like that of the Baseball HoF. It's more like the way the veteran's committee makes its baseball selections -- there's a 24-person panel that consists of "Hall of Famers, basketball executives and administrators, members of the media, and other experts in the game of basketball." Candidates need 18 votes to get in the Hall.
I agree with this analysis
-
yes
JFB might be the worst player in the NBA to have a team built around him, but he's a player you build a team around, as Miami has done.
10 years of 18+ points 5+ boards and 5+ assists... not a lot of guys with those kinds of stats will get left out.
A championship would help.
As for the Kawhi comparisons... it's chalk vs cheese. JFB is a leader and a team guy who would play every minute of every game. Kawhi has great talent (probably more) but doesn't use it. Only 5 years over 18ppg, never been an assist guy, rebounds well for his position.
Let's hope he wins a championship.
-
yes
JFB might be the worst player in the NBA to have a team built around him, but he's a player you build a team around, as Miami has done.
I mean, if you mean of the title contenders? Then perhaps. But if you look at the max deal guys who are supposed to be the core building block of the team, then no way. Plenty worse
-
yes
JFB might be the worst player in the NBA to have a team built around him, but he's a player you build a team around, as Miami has done.
10 years of 18+ points 5+ boards and 5+ assists... not a lot of guys with those kinds of stats will get left out.
A championship would help.
As for the Kawhi comparisons... it's chalk vs cheese. JFB is a leader and a team guy who would play every minute of every game. Kawhi has great talent (probably more) but doesn't use it. Only 5 years over 18ppg, never been an assist guy, rebounds well for his position.
Let's hope he wins a championship.
As Jwags said, among the legit title contenders? Probably close.But hes a far better "build around guy" then lots of other teams.
Also, if we are talking right now and not over the next 5 years. The heat are much better of with Jimmy this year than say a Donovan Mitchell. Hell, id even argue someone like Booker.
-
MU could use a few more HoFers wouldn't be my personal choice but Matthews was never the same post ACL and Crowder could never take that next step. Not exactly holding my breadth for Markus or Juan.
-
As Jwags said, among the legit title contenders? Probably close.But hes a far better "build around guy" then lots of other teams.
Also, if we are talking right now and not over the next 5 years. The heat are much better of with Jimmy this year than say a Donovan Mitchell. Hell, id even argue someone like Booker.
Yep - in general, among the title contenders. KAT is worse than JFB and has a team built around him, but no team built around him will ever win anything. Most of the bottom dwellers are just random collections of guys. Of the bad teams "built around" someone, you really have only the Hawks, Blazers, and Lakers and IMHO Lillard, Trae and LeBron are better than JFB, albeit at different points in their careers and game development.
-
At this point I feel like he's in the "hall of very good for a long time" but not quite hall of fame.
His number one career comp on basketball reference is Kawhi Leonard who will be a hall of famer...but Kawhi has two rings, two finals MVPs and two defensive POYs under his belt. Jimmy doesn't have any of those. And while it might not be his fault for not having a ring or a finals MVP, things like that matter for HOF consideration.
I think a ring or two and a finals MVP would go a long way to getting Jimmy in.
Jimmy had one of the best individual Finals performances of all time against the Lakers.
Dwyane Wade '06 NBA Finals (MVP)
-34.7 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.7 SPG, 1.0 BPG
Jimmy Butler '20 Finals
-26.2 PPG, 8.3 RPG, 9.8 APG, 2.2 SPG, .8 BPG
Those are HISTORICAL and Wade had 4 other Finals performances that were quite Hall of Fame worthy. Marquette has some All Timers and my goodness is it beautiful.
-
MU could use a few more HoFers wouldn't be my personal choice but Matthews was never the same post ACL and Crowder could never take that next step. Not exactly holding my breadth for Markus or Juan.
At least there's O-Max