2014 MLB Thread & Pissing Match

[Spotcheck Billy]

Was Yount's Brewers team any good?

good enough to play in a World Series in '82 and damn close in '81

[🏀]

good enough to play in a World Series in '82 and damn close in '81

Well, he didn't win a MVP award in '81. However, he did in '89 and they were exactly .500.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And they're choosing the most valuable player, not the best player. If one guy leads a team to a title while another leads a team to mediocrity (or worse) the former can be deemed more valuable even if he's not "the best" player.

Except one guy in a sport like baseball can't do it by himself.  You can have a guy hit 70 HRs, but if the pitching staff is horrendous it doesn't mean much.  It's not basketball where one guy can dominate a game, be involved in most of the plays for 48 minutes.  Baseball, you get 3 ABs, usually 4 out of a minimum of 27.  Your ability to dominate a game is much much smaller.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It is a case of new school versus old school.   In '12, the voters (rightfully, IMO) rewarded the first triple crown in 45 years.    Last year, the argument was the classic about whether a really good player on a .500 team should be rewarded over a really good player on a playoff team.    Age old arguments.   Good for beer summits.   I freely acknowledge that Mike Trout is the most impressive young player in the game.   He is awesome.   I would choose him first if I was starting a team.   But there were compelling arguments for someone other than him to be the MVP the last two years.   

I would love to see what the Angels would have done playing in the AL Central the last few years, one year alone I believe the AL Central had 4 of the 5 worst pitching staffs in the AL.  Baseball is a game of stats, but of course each team plays different teams more often than others based on their division.  Some guys can get very fat on some really bad pitching, much like the Halos did this weekend against the Astros.  Unfortunately for the Halos, they have to face Oakland and Seattle a bunch, and Texas (this year decimated by injuries).  It matters.

As for the record of the team, just a bit of irony but Trout's Angels had a BETTER record than Cabrera's Tigers two years ago, but because the Halos played in the AL West, they didn't go to the playoffs but the Tigers did.

[brandx]

I would love to see what the Angels would have done playing in the AL Central the last few years, one year alone I believe the AL Central had 4 of the 5 worst pitching staffs in the AL.  Baseball is a game of stats, but of course each team plays different teams more often than others based on their division.  Some guys can get very fat on some really bad pitching, much like the Halos did this weekend against the Astros.  Unfortunately for the Halos, they have to face Oakland and Seattle a bunch, and Texas (this year decimated by injuries).  It matters.

As for the record of the team, just a bit of irony but Trout's Angels had a BETTER record than Cabrera's Tigers two years ago, but because the Halos played in the AL West, they didn't go to the playoffs but the Tigers did.

There are teams that can make the same argument almost every year.

And you do realize that if it wasn't for the effects of elevation at Coors Field, the two worst staffs in the league this year are in the AL West.

[tower912]

As for the record of the team, just a bit of irony but Trout's Angels had a BETTER record than Cabrera's Tigers two years ago, but because the Halos played in the AL West, they didn't go to the playoffs but the Tigers did.

Yeah, but there was no way that advanced sabermetrics were ever going to overcome the first Triple Crown since 1967.   Particularly if the triple crown winner goes to the playoffs. 

[buckchuckler]

I would love to see what the Angels would have done playing in the AL Central the last few years, one year alone I believe the AL Central had 4 of the 5 worst pitching staffs in the AL.  Baseball is a game of stats, but of course each team plays different teams more often than others based on their division.  Some guys can get very fat on some really bad pitching, much like the Halos did this weekend against the Astros.  Unfortunately for the Halos, they have to face Oakland and Seattle a bunch, and Texas (this year decimated by injuries).  It matters.

As for the record of the team, just a bit of irony but Trout's Angels had a BETTER record than Cabrera's Tigers two years ago, but because the Halos played in the AL West, they didn't go to the playoffs but the Tigers did.

So last year the Royals had the best team ERA, the Tigers were 3rd and the Indians 7th.  That is 3 in the top half.  The Sox were 9th and the Twins a miserable 14th.  By comparison, the west had the A's at 2nd, the Rangers at 4th, the Angels, Mariners and Stros coming at 11, 13, and 15 respectively.  Advantage Central

You probably were thinking 2012, when the Tigers were 3rd, the Sox tied for 8th (with the Halos) followed by the Royals (10) Twins (13) and Indians (14).  So 3 in the bottom 5.  Advantage West

But that can certainly be skewed by giant parks like Oakland and Seattle compared with places like Chicago and Cleveland. 

Since 2010, the only year the Angels would have a complaint is 2012 when they won 89 and missed the playoffs.  Hard luck, but hardly the best team to miss the playoffs because of division alignments.  Other wise they have been a mid 80 win team.

I find the Trout v Cabrera argument to be very compelling.  I certainly see both sides.  The last 2 seasons, Cabrera has been the best hitter.  Over those 2 years, Cabrera has a lot more HR, better BA, better OBP, better SLG (so OPS too), more hits, less K's, and did a lot of it through injuries.  He has been a monster. 

Trout on the other hand has been the better player, when you factor in what he does on defense (though Cabrera was certainly capable last year at third), and on the base paths (though interestingly enough, their SB% the last 2 years is just about the same.  Slight difference in attempts though)

I understand people pining for Trout and saying he should have won, but when you look at what Cabrera did, there isn't a complaint that makes sense.  His composite OPS was over 1.000 for those 2 years, just unreal.  He has just been a hitting machine.  He is basically a lock for 40 doubles, 35 hr, 120 RBI and .325/.400/.550 over his career and even better than that the last 5 years.   

[Henry Sugar]

Hey Brewers Fans

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-brewers-healthy-stealthy-starting-rotation/

Fangraphs checks in on the starting rotation. The tl;dr version is that the solid staff should get the brewers to the playoffs but probably won’t carry them all the way.

[chapman]

Hey Brewers Fans

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-brewers-healthy-stealthy-starting-rotation/

Fangraphs checks in on the starting rotation. The tl;dr version is that the solid staff should get the brewers to the playoffs but probably won’t carry them all the way.

Personally, I love the first comment:

Jimmy Nelson says:
July 8, 2014 at 9:33 am
You forgot about me.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So last year the Royals had the best team ERA, the Tigers were 3rd and the Indians 7th.  That is 3 in the top half.  The Sox were 9th and the Twins a miserable 14th.  By comparison, the west had the A's at 2nd, the Rangers at 4th, the Angels, Mariners and Stros coming at 11, 13, and 15 respectively.  Advantage Central

You probably were thinking 2012, when the Tigers were 3rd, the Sox tied for 8th (with the Halos) followed by the Royals (10) Twins (13) and Indians (14).  So 3 in the bottom 5.  Advantage West

But that can certainly be skewed by giant parks like Oakland and Seattle compared with places like Chicago and Cleveland.  

Since 2010, the only year the Angels would have a complaint is 2012 when they won 89 and missed the playoffs.  Hard luck, but hardly the best team to miss the playoffs because of division alignments.  Other wise they have been a mid 80 win team.

I find the Trout v Cabrera argument to be very compelling.  I certainly see both sides.  The last 2 seasons, Cabrera has been the best hitter.  Over those 2 years, Cabrera has a lot more HR, better BA, better OBP, better SLG (so OPS too), more hits, less K's, and did a lot of it through injuries.  He has been a monster.  

Trout on the other hand has been the better player, when you factor in what he does on defense (though Cabrera was certainly capable last year at third), and on the base paths (though interestingly enough, their SB% the last 2 years is just about the same.  Slight difference in attempts though)

I understand people pining for Trout and saying he should have won, but when you look at what Cabrera did, there isn't a complaint that makes sense.  His composite OPS was over 1.000 for those 2 years, just unreal.  He has just been a hitting machine.  He is basically a lock for 40 doubles, 35 hr, 120 RBI and .325/.400/.550 over his career and even better than that the last 5 years.  

Yes, two years ago and my point then was switch Angels with Tigers...Halos wouldn't have to face the Tigers pitching staff nearly as often.  Tigers had a much easier time winning the division, the Angels despite having a better record and having to play much better competition couldn't get it.


That explains partly why Detroit went 13-20 against the AL West that year.  Whereas the Halos went 25-20 against the AL Central.

That was my point with Trout as well. Trout had to face in his own division Oakland (#2 staff), Seattle (#4 staff), Texas (#7 staff)...Houston wasn't in the division yet.  Cabrera faced Cleveland (#14 staff & worst staff in AL), Minnesota (#13 staff & 2nd worst staff in AL), Kansas City (#10 staff), and ChiSox (#9 staff).   Who got fatter on crappy pitching?

There are plenty of complaints that make sense against Cabrera...starting with fielding, running, etc.  Otherwise he would have won the award unanimously, which he didn't.  Is it a hitting award?

[brandx]

Give it up already. Yes, Trout is a great player.

But only a homer would argue that a Triple Crown winner didn't deserve the MVP.

[Lennys Tap]

Except one guy in a sport like baseball can't do it by himself.  You can have a guy hit 70 HRs, but if the pitching staff is horrendous it doesn't mean much.  It's not basketball where one guy can dominate a game, be involved in most of the plays for 48 minutes.  Baseball, you get 3 ABs, usually 4 out of a minimum of 27.  Your ability to dominate a game is much much smaller.

No disagreement. But suppose one guy is worth 7 wins but his team only wins 82 games and misses the playoff. It's not his fault, but what real "value" has he produced. One could even argue the team would have been better off without those 7 extra wins and higher draft choices. Another guy worth 6 wins on a team that wins 93 games can be the difference between going home empty and having a shot at a World Championship. He may not have been as good as the former player but he certainly was more valuable.

[MUfan12]

Hey Brewers Fans

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-brewers-healthy-stealthy-starting-rotation/

Fangraphs checks in on the starting rotation. The tl;dr version is that the solid staff should get the brewers to the playoffs but probably won’t carry them all the way.

I'm not sold this team makes the playoffs, even with their above average rotation. Their bullpen is perilously thin, an issue compounded by keeping Wang on the 25 man roster. The bench is pitiful. And they don't do the things right that contending teams do. They can't advance runners. Their situational hitting is terrible. They swing at crap. All the time. Not to mention the boneheaded outs they make on the basepaths.

Yeah, they've made it through half a season in good position. But I think this stretch is when the regression really kicks in.

[4everwarriors]

Brew Crew will have to make some moves to get serious 'bout winnin' this year

[wadesworld]

Brew Crew will have to make some moves to get serious 'bout winnin' this year

Been saying it throughout.

[Benny B]

I'm not sold this team makes the playoffs, even with their above average rotation. Their bullpen is perilously thin, an issue compounded by keeping Wang on the 25 man roster. The bench is pitiful. And they don't do the things right that contending teams do. They can't advance runners. Their situational hitting is terrible. They swing at crap. All the time. Not to mention the boneheaded outs they make on the basepaths.

Yeah, they've made it through half a season in good position. But I think this stretch is when the regression really kicks in.

The bullpen's overall performance this year despite Wang's enduring presence should be, by most measures, a testament to its strength.  Pitching is not the problem with this team... it's more than good enough to get them into the post-season.  Hitting is what will decide how deep that post-season run will be.

Advancing runners, situational hitting, swinging at crap are all euphemisms for the underlying problem... too many K's.

Brewers need two things at the trade deadline - a RH reliever with an above-average K:BB ratio and an OF reserve who has an above average BB:K ratio.

[buckchuckler]

Is it a hitting award?

Usually it is yeah.  And those arguments don't hold up to his offensive production. 

[madtownwarrior]

Brew Crew will be lucky to hold third place in the central.   Lots of early lucky wins and hot pitching not happening anymore...

But glad they don't need a bench player instead of a pitcher slot that will never be used...

And I heard Estrada made the All-Star game - to be the designated pitcher for the home run derby...

Meanwhile, Jimmy Nelson wins another in Triple A....

 Hey wait, another base running error....

Brew Crew will have to make some moves to get serious 'bout winnin' this year

[ChicosBailBonds]

Usually it is yeah.  And those arguments don't hold up to his offensive production.  

They should rename the award then....perhaps use Greg Luzinski as the trophy model.

[wadesworld]

Brew Crew will be lucky to hold third place in the central.   Lots of early lucky wins and hot pitching not happening anymore...

But glad they don't need a bench player instead of a pitcher slot that will never be used...

And I heard Estrada made the All-Star game - to be the designated pitcher for the home run derby...

Meanwhile, Jimmy Nelson wins another in Triple A....

 Hey wait, another base running error....

Relax kid. They still hold the best record in the NL. You thought they were going to continue to keep their pace towards 100 wins from day 1 through day 162?

[buckchuckler]

They should rename the award then....perhaps use Greg Luzinski as the trophy model.

Just look at the history of the award.  Usually goes to the best offensive player. 

[MUDPT]

Give it up already. Yes, Trout is a great player.

But only a homer would argue that a Triple Crown winner didn't deserve the MVP.

I like the Cubs and Trout should have been MVP. The Triple Crown is some arbitrary thing that a writer made up 100 years ago.  What if he decided the Triple Crown should be HR, BA and SB?  RBIs are totally dependent on who bats in front of you.  Trout led off for most of that season as I remember. 

[Lennys Tap]

They should rename the award then....perhaps use Greg Luzinski as the trophy model.

Because Greg Luzinski was the best hitter of his generation...wait, no. That was Miguel Cabrera. Luzinski didn't make the team picture in his generation.

[NavinRJohnson]

Relax kid. They still hold the best record in the NL. You thought they were going to continue to keep their pace towards 100 wins from day 1 through day 162?

No kidding. Despite the terrible last week or two they are still sitting there with the best record in the NL, and people can still find reasons to complain. Seriously, what are the expectations for this team? Do they really need to win 100 games for some people to be happy?

Personally, my hope was that they would be in the playoff race into the final week of the season. That obviously looks highly likely at this point, and likely better than that. The Cardinals will still be heard from. Were  always going to be, but, save for a bunch of injuries, there is little to indicate the Brewers are going to play sub-.500 ball the rest of the year, which is pretty much what it would take for them to remove themselves from playoff contention.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Because Greg Luzinski was the best hitter of his generation...wait, no. That was Miguel Cabrera. Luzinski didn't make the team picture in his generation.

That wasn't my point.  If we're going to reward the MVP trophy for the best hitter, change the name of the award.  Otherwise, it might as well just be a fat, beer belly, softball award...aka Greg Luzinski the perfect model (as in picture, not ability).  Should have been clearer.