Making a murder

[Spotcheck Billy]

The guy who killed Dahmer and another that day was already serving a life sentence... he came out last year and said that the prison guards deliberately left him alone with Dahmer and another guy, though that seems a bit misleading.  I don't think the guards were following every one of these inmates every second while the inmates are on cleaning duty, and of course, no cameras in the showers to tell what happened.  I don't think there were any allegations of misconduct or negligence by the guards, though Dahmer wasn't exactly popular with the general population or the guards, so it stands to reason that the guards at least looked the other way. 

Whether there was some sort of plan or conspiracy to his death, I don't know, but at least McCann (the DA who prosecuted Dahmer) immediately acknowledged the incident for what it was  (a homicide) - even if it was the death of the most notorious serial killer in Wisconsin's history (that we know of), not to mention someone he put behind bars - and urged the public, media and victims not to hold it up as some sort of vindication or excusable action.

If Avery or Dassey happened to die in prison, I'm taking the under on how many days before Kratz is dancing on a grave.

I have a cousin that was a guard at Columbia, he said Dahmer was a model prisoner.

But someone definitely had to put those 3 together.

[Dahmerville]

Dahmer seemed like a model citizen when I lived in his neighborhood, too. 

[Benny B]

Had an interesting conversation today with an attorney friend who knows Zellner professionally... basically, the gist of the conversation was that Avery is going to walk.  Said Avery's guilt or innocence is essentially irrelevant at this point... the 2005 case was so poorly mishandled that not only is the verdict definitely going to get tossed, but Zellner might blow up so much of it that there will be nothing left to re-try the case. A few interesting comments, some of which are not news, some of which I hadn't heard before:

Said that forensics/ballistics on the .22 bullet (that supposedly killed Halbach) was royally botched... either a test to show if the bullet exited Halbach's skull was never performed (but should have been), or it was performed but the results were suppressed by investigators and/or the prosecution.  Either way, this is going to blow a hole (pun intended) in the prosecution's case that Halbach was shot with Avery's .22.  Said this would be enough to get the case tossed on its own, but also given the state of the remains found in the burn pit and the pit's proximity to the garage, temperatures would have had to be so high for so long that there would have at least been heat damage to Avery's garage, if it hadn't burnt it down completely.  Said there's no way her remains were cremated there.  Science is not on the State's side here.

Now for the real interesting one...

Kratz may have exceeded the bounds of his authority in conducting the pre-trial press conference to the point where he could lose immunity and be exposed personally should Avery bring a defamation suit against him.  Also, depending on what he knew about the ballistics testing (or should have known) and the forensics that uncovered Avery's DNA in multiple places (the key, the car hood, etc.), there's an outside chance he might one day be sleeping in Avery's cell in Waupun.

He wasn't clear on who was financing Zellner, but made a point that she doesn't take cases pro bono unless she's going to win.

[keefe]

Had an interesting conversation today with an attorney friend who knows Zellner professionally... basically, the gist of the conversation was that Avery is going to walk.  Said Avery's guilt or innocence is essentially irrelevant at this point... the 2005 case was so poorly mishandled that not only is the verdict definitely going to get tossed, but Zellner might blow up so much of it that there will be nothing left to re-try the case. A few interesting comments, some of which are not news, some of which I hadn't heard before:

Said that forensics/ballistics on the .22 bullet (that supposedly killed Halbach) was royally botched... either a test to show if the bullet exited Halbach's skull was never performed (but should have been), or it was performed but the results were suppressed by investigators and/or the prosecution.  Either way, this is going to blow a hole (pun intended) in the prosecution's case that Halbach was shot with Avery's .22.  Said this would be enough to get the case tossed on its own, but also given the state of the remains found in the burn pit and the pit's proximity to the garage, temperatures would have had to be so high for so long that there would have at least been heat damage to Avery's garage, if it hadn't burnt it down completely.  Said there's no way her remains were cremated there.  Science is not on the State's side here.

Now for the real interesting one...

Kratz may have exceeded the bounds of his authority in conducting the pre-trial press conference to the point where he could lose immunity and be exposed personally should Avery bring a defamation suit against him.  Also, depending on what he knew about the ballistics testing (or should have known) and the forensics that uncovered Avery's DNA in multiple places (the key, the car hood, etc.), there's an outside chance he might one day be sleeping in Avery's cell in Waupun.

He wasn't clear on who was financing Zellner, but made a point that she doesn't take cases pro bono unless she's going to win.

I hope the 2005 case gets tossed.

This is no longer about Avery's guilt or innocence but, rather, about a judicial system run amok.

If a society is predicated on the rule of law, and that the system exists to protect the liberty of all its members, then what the system seems to have done to Avery is unconscionable.

Taking away a man's liberty is a huge decision for society to undertake. There is no room for foul play on such a significant decision.

America is about freedom. What those cops and lawyers did to Avery and Dassey is inexcusable.

[wadesworld]

I'll believe he even gets a new trial when I see it.

[Benny B]

I'll believe he even gets a new trial when I see it.

That's cool.  At least you acknowledge something when it's right in front of you... unlike Peterson and Kusche who can't even acknowledge to this day that Avery wasn't guilty of the 1985 attack.

[rocket surgeon]

The guy who killed Dahmer and another that day was already serving a life sentence... he came out last year and said that the prison guards deliberately left him alone with Dahmer and another guy, though that seems a bit misleading.  I don't think the guards were following every one of these inmates every second while the inmates are on cleaning duty, and of course, no cameras in the showers to tell what happened.  I don't think there were any allegations of misconduct or negligence by the guards, though Dahmer wasn't exactly popular with the general population or the guards, so it stands to reason that the guards at least looked the other way. 

Whether there was some sort of plan or conspiracy to his death, I don't know, but at least McCann (the DA who prosecuted Dahmer) immediately acknowledged the incident for what it was  (a homicide) - even if it was the death of the most notorious serial killer in Wisconsin's history (that we know of), not to mention someone he put behind bars - and urged the public, media and victims not to hold it up as some sort of vindication or excusable action.

If Avery or Dassey happened to die in prison, I'm taking the under on how many days before Kratz is dancing on a grave.

the other dude killed along with dahmer was jesse anderson.  anderson killed his wife in the former northridge(brown deer) parking lot outside of TGIF's and initially claimed it was done by a black guy or guys.  big manhunt ensued until they figured out he was lying-i'm sure the african-americans did not appreciate the notoriety as they had enough of their own to deal with

[Jay Bee]

Dahmer should have been well protected. He shared openly his history and line of thinking - some of the interviews are extremely intriguing and helpful for the study of such minds. Unfortunate he was murdered.

Avery is a slime-ball killer. Keep him locked up forever.

[wadesworld]

Had an interesting conversation today with an attorney friend who knows Zellner professionally... basically, the gist of the conversation was that Avery is going to walk.  Said Avery's guilt or innocence is essentially irrelevant at this point... the 2005 case was so poorly mishandled that not only is the verdict definitely going to get tossed, but Zellner might blow up so much of it that there will be nothing left to re-try the case. A few interesting comments, some of which are not news, some of which I hadn't heard before:

Said that forensics/ballistics on the .22 bullet (that supposedly killed Halbach) was royally botched... either a test to show if the bullet exited Halbach's skull was never performed (but should have been), or it was performed but the results were suppressed by investigators and/or the prosecution.  Either way, this is going to blow a hole (pun intended) in the prosecution's case that Halbach was shot with Avery's .22.  Said this would be enough to get the case tossed on its own, but also given the state of the remains found in the burn pit and the pit's proximity to the garage, temperatures would have had to be so high for so long that there would have at least been heat damage to Avery's garage, if it hadn't burnt it down completely.  Said there's no way her remains were cremated there.  Science is not on the State's side here.

Now for the real interesting one...

Kratz may have exceeded the bounds of his authority in conducting the pre-trial press conference to the point where he could lose immunity and be exposed personally should Avery bring a defamation suit against him.  Also, depending on what he knew about the ballistics testing (or should have known) and the forensics that uncovered Avery's DNA in multiple places (the key, the car hood, etc.), there's an outside chance he might one day be sleeping in Avery's cell in Waupun.

He wasn't clear on who was financing Zellner, but made a point that she doesn't take cases pro bono unless she's going to win.

Wouldn't the bolded have more to do with the mutilation of a corpse charge than the murder charge?  The one that Avery was found not guilty on?

[mu03eng]

Wouldn't the bolded have more to do with the mutilation of a corpse charge than the murder charge?  The one that Avery was found not guilty on?

Brings reasonable doubt if the prosecutions theory of the crime (the whole "story") can be brought into question.

Side note, one thing that stuck with me from one of the last episodes was when the juror was dismissed. Maybe I've watched too much Law and Order but it sounded like Avery had 3 choices when the juror had to be dismissed: seat an alternate(what they did), stay at 11, or mistrial. The last one wasn't clear if he had that option, if he did, why wouldn't they go with the mistrial? Yes you have to retry the case but now you know the prosecutions case and all their tricks, doesn't it make sense to go at it again? Or are we to assume the defense lawyers thought they already had a winning case in hand?

This is more of a legal strategy question then anything having to do with the Avery crime specifically.

[🏀]

Pretty sure I've said several times that Zellner is going to blow this up, right?

The level of lawyering in this case is pretty poor and she's probably drooling at the publicity.

[wadesworld]

Pretty sure I've said several times that Zellner is going to blow this up, right?

The level of lawyering in this case is pretty poor and she's probably drooling at the publicity.

And I'm pretty sure I've said several times that Avery will never be a free man.

[Coleman]

Brings reasonable doubt if the prosecutions theory of the crime (the whole "story") can be brought into question.

Side note, one thing that stuck with me from one of the last episodes was when the juror was dismissed. Maybe I've watched too much Law and Order but it sounded like Avery had 3 choices when the juror had to be dismissed: seat an alternate(what they did), stay at 11, or mistrial. The last one wasn't clear if he had that option, if he did, why wouldn't they go with the mistrial? Yes you have to retry the case but now you know the prosecutions case and all their tricks, doesn't it make sense to go at it again? Or are we to assume the defense lawyers thought they already had a winning case in hand?

This is more of a legal strategy question then anything having to do with the Avery crime specifically.

I'm guessing either Avery or his lawyers (or both) were so convinced of his innocence and the case they made for it, they were expecting a not guilty verdict.

[Coleman]

Dahmer should have been well protected. He shared openly his history and line of thinking - some of the interviews are extremely intriguing and helpful for the study of such minds. Unfortunate he was murdered.

Avery is a slime-ball killer. Keep him locked up forever.

We all know how you feel about Avery.  If you're going to keep chiming in like this, at least add something substantive, like Wades, who I disagree with but at least contributes to the conversation.

You still never answered my question about Dassey. I don't know how anyone, even someone convinced of Avery's guilt, could excuse what law enforcement, and his own court-appointed lawyer, who conspired with law enforcement against him, did to him.

[🏀]

And I'm pretty sure I've said several times that Avery will never be a free man.

She's freed convicted in worse situations than Avery, she's famous for it.

[Benny B]

Brings reasonable doubt if the prosecutions theory of the crime (the whole "story") can be brought into question.

Exactly.  Where the body was incinerated might be an immaterial difference per se, but to achieve that state/condition of the remains found in the burn pit, the bonfire would have had to have been so hot for so long that it would have damaged any nearby structures.  The lack of any physical evidence of such damage would mean that the remains were cremated elsewhere and were moved to Avery's burn pit later.

So unless one believes that Avery burned Halbach's body somewhere else and, for some reason, then scattered a portion of  her remains on his lot, it would be irrefutable that someone had planted evidence on Avery's property in order to build (or win) a case against him.

Again... this doesn't say that Avery is innocent; it merely substantiates reasonable doubt to the prosecution's case.  At the very least, the case will be re-tried, but the prosecution has to come up with another theory for her death, which probably isn't the tough part... the tough part is likely going to be tying Avery's involvement into the new theory.

[Coleman]

Had an interesting conversation today with an attorney friend who knows Zellner professionally... basically, the gist of the conversation was that Avery is going to walk.  Said Avery's guilt or innocence is essentially irrelevant at this point... the 2005 case was so poorly mishandled that not only is the verdict definitely going to get tossed, but Zellner might blow up so much of it that there will be nothing left to re-try the case. A few interesting comments, some of which are not news, some of which I hadn't heard before:

Said that forensics/ballistics on the .22 bullet (that supposedly killed Halbach) was royally botched... either a test to show if the bullet exited Halbach's skull was never performed (but should have been), or it was performed but the results were suppressed by investigators and/or the prosecution.  Either way, this is going to blow a hole (pun intended) in the prosecution's case that Halbach was shot with Avery's .22.  Said this would be enough to get the case tossed on its own, but also given the state of the remains found in the burn pit and the pit's proximity to the garage, temperatures would have had to be so high for so long that there would have at least been heat damage to Avery's garage, if it hadn't burnt it down completely.  Said there's no way her remains were cremated there.  Science is not on the State's side here.

Now for the real interesting one...

Kratz may have exceeded the bounds of his authority in conducting the pre-trial press conference to the point where he could lose immunity and be exposed personally should Avery bring a defamation suit against him.  Also, depending on what he knew about the ballistics testing (or should have known) and the forensics that uncovered Avery's DNA in multiple places (the key, the car hood, etc.), there's an outside chance he might one day be sleeping in Avery's cell in Waupun.

He wasn't clear on who was financing Zellner, but made a point that she doesn't take cases pro bono unless she's going to win.

Super interesting. Hadn't even realized Zellner was taking the case. That is huge. It looks like she is doing it pro bono as well.

[mu03eng]

Exactly.  Where the body was incinerated might be an immaterial difference per se, but to achieve that state/condition of the remains found in the burn pit, the bonfire would have had to have been so hot for so long that it would have damaged any nearby structures.  The lack of any physical evidence of such damage would mean that the remains were cremated elsewhere and were moved to Avery's burn pit later.

So unless one believes that Avery burned Halbach's body somewhere else and, for some reason, then scattered a portion of  her remains on his lot, it would be irrefutable that someone had planted evidence on Avery's property in order to build (or win) a case against him.

Again... this doesn't say that Avery is innocent; it merely substantiates reasonable doubt to the prosecution's case.  At the very least, the case will be re-tried, but the prosecution has to come up with another theory for her death, which probably isn't the tough part... the tough part is likely going to be tying Avery's involvement into the new theory.

If it is scientifically proven that the bonfire could not have cremated the remains, that completely destroys the case against Dassey as half of his "confession" is predicated on him saying he saw toes in a bonfire, which was originally specified by the female cousin who recanted during the trial. If the body in the bonfire didn't happen Dassey goes free at worst.

One thing to note, in fairness to the prosecution, they are always trying to create a narrative based on the evidence that fits their theory of the crime. So if they got the story wrong because there is new evidence that doesn't indicate malfeasance, just a lack of enough evidence to get it "right". However, IF this bonfire evidence is correct and IF Kratz had it, that is malfeasance and he should probably be prosecuted.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Kratz is writing a book now
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/making-a-murderer-prosecutor-ken-kratz-is-writing-a-book-about-the-steven-avery-case-w162416

[Benny B]

Kratz is writing a book now
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/making-a-murderer-prosecutor-ken-kratz-is-writing-a-book-about-the-steven-avery-case-w162416

SMH.  This guy's narcissism is going to bite him in the ass.

The appropriate way to respond would be to say something along the lines of "yes, we did follow up on those fingerprints, but the investigators found that they were not relevant to this case."  End of story.  Not "hey, jackhole, if you want to be famous, why don't you tell me your story, and I'll go out and get me a book deal."

[mu03eng]

Kratz is writing a book now
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/making-a-murderer-prosecutor-ken-kratz-is-writing-a-book-about-the-steven-avery-case-w162416

Damn that guy's gross

[Coleman]

Damn that guy's gross

His reaction to the reporter when the whole sexting scandal broke out gave me chills.

[keefe]

Damn that guy's gross

Marquette grad. Was he in NROTC?

[mu03eng]

Marquette grad. Was he in NROTC?

I said gross, not bad ass.....I know reading is phundemental for zoomies

[warriorchick]

I said gross, not bad ass.....I know reading is phundemental for zoomies

He went there for law school, not undergrad.  You can look him up on LinkedIn if you want....