Making a murder

[Benny B]

Whatever helps you cling to your conspiracy theory, it's cool. You want them to get a new trial and/or be freed. We get it. Fortunately, the folks in charge of these things are/will base their decisions on more than some trumped up, one-sided documentary. I was simply pointing out the irony that this show, designed to paint these murduring rapists as innocent victims, will absolutely not get them released, but in fact, has probably increased the likelihood of them being harmed or killed in prison.

Yeah.... you didn't watch the documentary at all, did you? 

Honestly, at the half-way point through episode 10, I'm less convinced of Avery's innocence now than I was at any point, whether before or during the series, but I believe that Avery should (or will) receive a new trial.  I don't recall who mentioned it in episode 9, but in all three cases, law enforcement and the prosecution was looking for a conviction, not the truth.

Regardless, I still think that more people should be in jail than Avery and Dassey... even if Avery did kill Halbach, Prosecution and law enforcement truly acted shamefully.  I'm sure they think they were doing the right thing as much as I'm sure that the State has properly gained convictions in numerous cases with much less evidence and/or much more doubt.

I still can't understand the rationale for the judge not allowing Avery's defense to present any evidence of another killer... not sure this would have swayed the jury, but it seems awfully suspect given all the circumstantial evidence against Avery that could have been circumstantial against someone else.

An officer calling in to confirm Information on a vehicle for which they have been told to be on the lookout...That's  really that odd to you? Did you hear the entire call?

If it's not that odd, why did he call it in rather than radio it in?  If he was just confirming something, he could have done that over the radio, no?  Heck, that way he could have done a favor for his entire squad and confirmed it everyone who was on their radio.  But Colborn wanted to keep that information to himself, or at least off the police band.  Why?

[Spotcheck Billy]

I'll admit its been a few weeks since watching it but as I recall things, Colburn ran the plates before Halbach was even reported missing by her platonic room mate

[GGGG]

I'll admit its been a few weeks since watching it but as I recall things, Colburn ran the plates before Halbach was even reported missing by her platonic room mate

That isn't true.  She had been reported as missing when he called it in.

[Coleman]

Whatever helps you cling to your conspiracy theory, it's cool. You want them to get a new trial and/or be freed. We get it. Fortunately, the folks in charge of these things are/will base their decisions on more than some trumped up, one-sided documentary. I was simply pointing out the irony that this show, designed to paint these murduring rapists as innocent victims, will absolutely not get them released, but in fact, has probably increased the likelihood of them being harmed or killed in prison.

In my opinion the documentary authors had no intention of being one sided. Only one side offered to cooperate with them.

And don't you think this side should be heard, since everyone was being fed only the prosecution's side for 10+ years?

I grew up an hour from Manitowoc, and all I've ever heard was the prosecution's talking points, until this documentary.

[Coleman]

Halbach's brother and ex girlfriend probably illegally trespassed onto Avery's property and found the car there, called the police, and Colburn probably went against protocol to go out to see for himself after receiving the call.  Hence why he had to call in the car rather than radio it in (as he would've if he was just sitting in his police car looking at the car on the side of some road).  This would explain why the ex boyfriend and the brother acted so weird at times in the documentary and why they would just coincidentally give out a single camera one time in the entire 3 day search, and it happened to be to the one person who found Halbach's car, which happened within 30 minutes of beginning to search the property.  Just got lucky, or "God led her there."  Or they knew exactly where the car was and who would find it, they just had to make it look coincidental because protocol had not been followed.

If true, this would be an illegal search and seizure, and the car would have to be excluded from evidence.

Even if you think Avery is guilty, you have to admit the investigation was so f*cked up, you need to acquit. You either believe in our constitution, or you don't. If you do, there's no way Steven Avery or Brendan Dassey should be behind bars.

[wadesworld]

If true, this would be an illegal search and seizure, and the car would have to be excluded from evidence.

Even if you think Avery is guilty, you have to admit the investigation was so f*cked up, you need to acquit. You either believe in our constitution, or you don't. If you do, there's no way Steven Avery or Brendan Dassey should be behind bars.

Or you believe you saw about 5% of the trial and it was a completely biased 5%.

[Coleman]

Or you believe you saw about 5% of the trial and it was a completely biased 5%.

I'm not talking about anything else besides what you just said. Everything else is irrelevant. If that is how the car was found, it would have been illegally allowed as evidence. Quit trying to put up smokescreens.

[GGGG]

Halbach's brother and ex girlfriend probably illegally trespassed onto Avery's property and found the car there, called the police, and Colburn probably went against protocol to go out to see for himself after receiving the call.  Hence why he had to call in the car rather than radio it in (as he would've if he was just sitting in his police car looking at the car on the side of some road).  This would explain why the ex boyfriend and the brother acted so weird at times in the documentary and why they would just coincidentally give out a single camera one time in the entire 3 day search, and it happened to be to the one person who found Halbach's car, which happened within 30 minutes of beginning to search the property.  Just got lucky, or "God led her there."  Or they knew exactly where the car was and who would find it, they just had to make it look coincidental because protocol had not been followed.

That is probably the best explanation of what happened there and one I had not thought of. 

EDIT:  I wonder if the key was in the car at that point and it was grabbed too.

[Benny B]

Here's an interesting twist that actually might have some legs despite Cameron's disjointed connections and theories behind some of the most famous unsolved homicides over the past few decades.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/former-cop-believes-notorious-serial-190919339.html

Incidentally, the Yahoo article leaves out a very interesting piece in the linked story.

http://uproxx.com/tv/making-a-murderer-edward-wayne-edwards/2/

"Avery’s new lawyer Kathleen Zellner has already freed one of the men wrongfully convicted of a crime Cameron attributes to Ed Edwards – Ryan Ferguson spent nearly 10 years in jail for the death of Columbia Daily Tribune sports editor Kent Heith. That murder went down on Halloween night."

------

If you don't want to believe that the MCSD framed Avery - which is perfectly fine - you have to at least acknowledge that framing Avery would have been a cake walk for someone with minimal resources.

The question boils down to motivation, i.e. why would anyone want to kill an innocent woman for no reason at all?  Though atypical, some murders fall into the "for sport" category rather than in one of the usual categories, e.g. rage, passion, revenge, witness-elimination, etc.

Consider this... you just saw Steven Avery on the news being released from prison a couple years ago, now you see he's going after the corrupt sheriff's dept. that wrongfully convicted him 20 years ago, and all of the sudden, your bloodlust starts to boil and spin the turbine in your head.  So you track the guy for a couple weeks, learn the lay of his land, and then you wait for an opportunity to present itself.  It might seem far-fetched to go to all this trouble when - if all you want is to kill - you could just as easily drive into any inner-city on a given night and pick up a prostitute... but if you have a fetish for both killing and framing, Steve Avery is something of a holy grail in your world - only in this case, it's easily within reach.

This is so far fetched that I'm sure many will have difficulty comprehending this as having even a 0.00000000000000000000001% chance of being true, but the odds - in reality - are so much greater than the average person would think.  There are some sick, twisted people out there, and they thrive on the general public's inability (or outright refusal) to acknowledge that they exist.

[wadesworld]

I'm not talking about anything else besides what you just said. Everything else is irrelevant. If that is how the car was found, it would have been illegally allowed as evidence. Quit trying to put up smokescreens.

That was my guess.  There is like a 0.01% chance that is actually what happened.  Unless it can be proven that that's what happened, you can't rule out the car as evidence.

[NavinRJohnson]

There are some sick, twisted people out there, and they thrive on the general public's inability (or outright refusal) to acknowledge that they exist.

On this point we completely agree, and I think it applies in this case (though the rape aspect also introduces lust, obsession, witness elimination, etc). More to the point, my first comment in this thread was as to people wanting to believe the conspiracy, and my inability to understand why. That wanting to believe is still going on, and I honestly think it's because folks would rather believe that, than to have to admit to themselves that there are people as purely evil as Steven Avery walking down the same streets as the rest of us.

I don't know why I keep sucking myself into this ridiculous thread, because I just don't care, so I will move on again (for the time being anyway). This s morning, I just thought it was interesting that if one of these guys ends up with a broomstick in his skull, it will likley be as a direct result of this TV show, that pretty clearly had a very different intent.

[Benny B]

I don't know why I keep sucking myself into this ridiculous thread, because I just don't care, so I will move on again (for the time being anyway). This s morning, I just thought it was interesting that if one of these guys ends up with a broomstick in his skull, it will likley be as a direct result of this TV show, that pretty clearly had a very different intent.

Well... Dassey is certainly being housed in the right place for such an incident to occur.

Fortunately for Avery, his prison doesn't have a Netflix subscription, so he isn't the only one who won't see the series.

[Sir Lawrence]

Well... Dassey is certainly being housed in the right place for such an incident to occur.

A reference to the Dahmer demise? 

[NavinRJohnson]

Well... Dassey is certainly being housed in the right place for such an incident to occur.

Just to prove I look at these things logically and with an open mind, in that case, I do not believe for one second those three monsters were left alone by accident. How it came to be, or who was behind it, I don't know. Nor do I recall what if anything ever came of it.

[mu03eng]

A couple of things:
-The rape thing only came into play because of the story Dassey told, there is no physical evidence to indicate she was raped. Not saying she wasn't but if Dassey hadn't said anything that wouldn't have been a thing
-Avery was acquitted on the mutilating a corpse charge, Dassey was found guilty. It either happened the way Dassey said or it didn't happen at all, it which case logic would dictate you can't have the two different outcomes. (I get that things happen at trial, but I'm talking from a pure logic standpoint)

Avery probably killed Halbach, but I would guess it was a straight up murder(without all the rape, imprisonment stuff) and the PD trumped up additional evidence and further sensationalized it with the Dassey "confession".

[Benny B]

Just to prove I look at these things logically and with an open mind, in that case, I do not believe for one second those three monsters were left alone by accident. How it came to be, or who was behind it, I don't know. Nor do I recall what if anything ever came of it.

The guy who killed Dahmer and another that day was already serving a life sentence... he came out last year and said that the prison guards deliberately left him alone with Dahmer and another guy, though that seems a bit misleading.  I don't think the guards were following every one of these inmates every second while the inmates are on cleaning duty, and of course, no cameras in the showers to tell what happened.  I don't think there were any allegations of misconduct or negligence by the guards, though Dahmer wasn't exactly popular with the general population or the guards, so it stands to reason that the guards at least looked the other way. 

Whether there was some sort of plan or conspiracy to his death, I don't know, but at least McCann (the DA who prosecuted Dahmer) immediately acknowledged the incident for what it was  (a homicide) - even if it was the death of the most notorious serial killer in Wisconsin's history (that we know of), not to mention someone he put behind bars - and urged the public, media and victims not to hold it up as some sort of vindication or excusable action.

If Avery or Dassey happened to die in prison, I'm taking the under on how many days before Kratz is dancing on a grave.

[StillAWarrior]

An officer calling in to confirm Information on a vehicle for which they have been told to be on the lookout...That's  really that odd to you? Did you hear the entire call?

This is the explanation he offers, and it makes sense.  There is, of course, the alternate explanation that he was looking at the vehicle at the time he called it in.  But even though I tend to think Colburn and Lenk were not completely on the up and up -- and I'm troubled by the sheer number of coincidences involving them (including this one) -- I think it's a viable explanation to say that he was checking to make sure he had accurate information on the vehicle he was supposed to be looking for.

[NavinRJohnson]

The other inmate killed was none other than Jesse Anderson, who killed his wife in a TGi Fridays parking lot in an extremely high profile case at the time. Of all the prisoners in all the prisons, for those two notorious guys to be left alone to clean with that nut job is quite convenient (or inconvenient in their case).

[mu03eng]

The other inmate killed was none other than Jesse Anderson, who killed his wife in a TGi Fridays parking lot in an extremely high profile case at the time. Of all the prisoners in all the prisons, for those two notorious guys to be left alone to clean with that nut job is quite convenient (or inconvenient in their case).

So as long as its your crazy conspiracy it's an acceptable if not likely conspiracy?

[Eldon]

Quite possible.  Kratz is an MU Law School grad, so he could have already been a Scooper.

Finkle is Einhorn?...Einhorn is Finkle...Finkle is Einhorn...Einhorn is Finkle!

It all makes sense now

[NavinRJohnson]

So as long as its your crazy conspiracy it's an acceptable if not likely conspiracy?

Based on the available information (or absence of) which I use to draw my own conclusions, yes. Not sure why you would imply there's some sort of inconsistency in that. Maybe it's a conspiracy! The difference of course is that I'm not suggesting a murdering rapist (or two) should be set free because I watched a TV show.

[brandx]

I just don't get 14 pages in this thread debating whether a guy is guilty or not based on a biased TV show.

Now, if someone wants to go over all the evidence and transcripts from the trial and then comes to a conclusion on guilt of innocence, more power to them and they have a valid point.

But a TV show that does not do that? I can't figure out how anyone can make a decision on guilt based on just this.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

This is the explanation he offers, and it makes sense.  There is, of course, the alternate explanation that he was looking at the vehicle at the time he called it in.  But even though I tend to think Colburn and Lenk were not completely on the up and up -- and I'm troubled by the sheer number of coincidences involving them (including this one) -- I think it's a viable explanation to say that he was checking to make sure he had accurate information on the vehicle he was supposed to be looking for.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.  When he was being cross-examined on the stand on this topic it seemed pretty clear to me that he was not being honest.  I absolutely believe he was looking at the car in person a day or two before it was found on the Avery property. 

[Coleman]

So as long as its your crazy conspiracy it's an acceptable if not likely conspiracy?

Right?

[Vander Blue Man Group]

On this point we completely agree, and I think it applies in this case (though the rape aspect also introduces lust, obsession, witness elimination, etc). More to the point, my first comment in this thread was as to people wanting to believe the conspiracy, and my inability to understand why. That wanting to believe is still going on, and I honestly think it's because folks would rather believe that, than to have to admit to themselves that there are people as purely evil as Steven Avery walking down the same streets as the rest of us.

I don't know why I keep sucking myself into this ridiculous thread, because I just don't care, so I will move on again (for the time being anyway). This s morning, I just thought it was interesting that if one of these guys ends up with a broomstick in his skull, it will likley be as a direct result of this TV show, that pretty clearly had a very different intent.

You did not watch the entire documentary, correct?