The Gold?

[denverMU]

Congrats!  Now tell me how that would be relevant?

Hint: If we were debating the Sacramento Kings nickname it might be...but we aren't.

I just thought you would be more sensitive to Sultans, having read some of your posts I think you give Sultans a bad name.  Quite frankly, to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, I know Sultans, I have worked with Sultans , you are no Sultan!

[ChicosBailBonds]

TAMU....the SI Poll was conducted by the Peter Harris Research Group, an independent polling firm.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Spartans weren't an "ethnic group."  Sparta was a city you know.  It's like "Chicagoan."

Chicagoans are offensive!


Vikings slaughtered people, why do we celebrate them every Sunday (well, many of us don't celebrate them)?  




I'm finding some delicious irony that Lanny Davis is the attorney hired by Dan Snyder to make his case.  Lanny Davis.     The squirming going on by some folks is delicious with that one.  LOL

[forgetful]

They were Greek.  Being focused on military training doesn't make them a separate ethnic group.

Nice try though.

If you believe this, Keefe is right you know nothing about ancient greece.  

For one, yes Spartans were a different ethnicity.  Typically then referred to as Dorians.  Athenians were of Ionian descent and Thebes of Aeolian descent.  Greek was a hodgepodge of ethnicities, which is partially why the city states feuded so often.

Now back to whatever it is everyone is arguing about.

[keefe]

I find the irony rather delicious...

















Atta Girl, Hanoi!!!

[ChicosBailBonds]

TT and JF have been poster children for the Do as I say, Not as I do crowd for decades.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Some here want to ignore history because they want to be outraged.
Here's the bottom line:  warriors was picked because that is what we wished to emulate and think of As a powerful image of Marquette. Warriors were brave, strong and fearless. When I was at MU, WW was a student in buckskin and a headress. Native American students then didn't object. Previously  WW was more of a caracature because, I believe, it was the era of Disney and cartoonish mascots were the vogue. Nobody intended anything derogatory and no one ever intimated that it was.

[ChicosBailBonds]

[Jay Bee]

[Lennys Tap]

I'm finding some delicious irony that Lanny Davis is the attorney hired by Dan Snyder to make his case.  Lanny Davis.     The squirming going on by some folks is delicious with that one.  LOL

What irony? This has nothing to with right or left, pc or non pc. It's about common sense and the fact that words mean something. There are ignoramuses on both sides of the political spectrum. That's not exactly a relevation.

[keefe]

[Lennys Tap]

Some here want to ignore history because they want to be outraged.
Here's the bottom line:  warriors was picked because that is what we wished to emulate and think of As a powerful image of Marquette. Warriors were brave, strong and fearless. When I was at MU, WW was a student in buckskin and a headress. Native American students then didn't object. Previously  WW was more of a caracature because, I believe, it was the era of Disney and cartoonish mascots were the vogue. Nobody intended anything derogatory and no one ever intimated that it was.

Nothing at all wrong with warriors - best nickname ever. Those who lump warriors with Redskins, Chinks, etc., are not very smart, racist, or both.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We saw these hat images yesterday and discussed in our carpool...I pool with one Japanese, and two Chinese (my town is predominantly Asian).   The Chinese colleagues loved it and said they were going to start their own line like this.  One is an entrepreneur in these types of things, so I wouldn't put it past him.  

Go figure.  

Disappointed that the folks that did this ad stole the idea from the early 1990's, but what are you going to do.




In the meantime, enjoy these....that Celtic is not an appropriate symbol for Caucasians.  Not inclusive enough...it's a male, that is demeaning to women.  He smokes, which is a terrible habit.  

 

[ChicosBailBonds]

What irony? This has nothing to with right or left, pc or non pc. It's about common sense and the fact that words mean something. There are ignoramuses on both sides of the political spectrum. That's not exactly a relevation.

Oh are you naive....just look who is lining up on which sides of this (for the most part).  

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://deadspin.com/rick-reillys-american-indian-father-in-law-says-reilly-1443599450

In case anyone doubted that Rick Reilly sucks.

Not really.  Two sides to every story.  Let's hear Rick's....weird that Deadspin didn't include his side....weird.


http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rpkd7s

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

1. American Indian....excuse me
2. As I just showed Spartans is an ethnicity.
3. What does this matter, there are still people who still relate back to that history or are you saying that if we had wiped out the entire "American Indian" population it would be ok for MU to use Warrior?
4. This makes no sense.  What you seem to be saying is it is ok to use a derogatory term (your assertion not mine) if somehow you are part of the group.  So a football team on an Indian reservation could call themselves the Warriors?  Org rambling could call themselves The Ni@@ers?
5. When I attended MU the mascot was an Native American Indian who was dressed in traditional American Indian clothes and performed traditional American Indian dances and was awarded a full scholarship for his troubles.
6. See #5

Try coming up with some more, that are accurate.  While you are at it, try to explain to me how a name of a team, obviously, meant to be positive because you do not name your something negative that you hate, is offensive.

1. You're excused
2. By my understanding of the culture, Spartans refer to Greeks from the city of Sparta. Therefore, their ethnicity would be Greek, not Spartan. However as someone pointed out (Keefe I think) Greece was divided into city states and an argument could be made that it was a specific ethnicity.
3. Yes I am saying that. No one has referred to themselves as a Spartan in the sense that Michigan State uses it in over  1500 years. Even if we had completely wiped out that American Indians, I would guess that not enough time would have passed at this point. But I don't know. Who can say how long is enough? Fortunately, we live in a world where that didn't happen.
4. Absolutely. And the NCAA agrees with me. When they forced the mascot changes back in 2005, they included a clause that said that Tribal Colleges (universities whose population is at least 20% native american...I'm pretty sure its 20%) could keep their mascots without penalty. That's why UNC-Pembroke still is and always will be the Braves. Who says the word matters. Its similar to how it is more socially acceptable (I include the qualifier more because I know some disagree) for black men and women to use the n-word but not for white people.
5. What I'm referring to is Willie Wampum, one of the most racist mascots of all time. He is an embarrassment to all Marquette alums and I can't believe how many people still glorify him. But it sounds like Willie was gone when you went to school. Using a native american in traditional garb is much better, but still not good, which I'll explain in #6. I don't know but I'm hoping that the mascot actually was native american and his garb and dances were actually from his own tribe? Cause if we dressed some white boy up and asked him to be the mascot, that's just awful (Florida State used to do that, I think they changed recently).
6. What many people fail to understand is that just because traditional garb and music is used does not mean it is respectful. Do you know what native americans wore as every day clothing? It's not what the mascots are wearing on the court. Headdresses and war paint were used almost exclusively as symbols of power and religion. The dances and music that you heard were sacred prayers that are central to their faith. How do you think a native student would feel watching their religion being reduced to a sideshow attraction? It would be like having a team called Imams and using the muslim call to prayer as pump up music.

And to answer your last question look at answers 1-6. But also, think about what mascots are. They are animals, occupations, landmarks, verbs, astrological bodies. To put a group of living people in that same category is demeaning. Think about it. You wouldn't be comfortable being named the Marquette Jews, or the Marquette Arabs, or the Marquette Africans. So why is it ok to do for Native Americans?

Look, I love the name Warriors. On its own, it is not offensive in the slightest. We made it offensive. It became offensive the day we rolled out Willie Wampum.  From then on, the name was associated with a big headed, buck toothed, red skinned monstrosity. I know it was the sixities, I know we didn't mean any harm, but it was still wrong. Could the 1993 administration have handled it better? Yes. Could they have taken some time to ween us off the native american imagery? Yes. Could we have become a generic Warrior without too much fuss? Probably. I don't agree with how it was handled, but they thought the name change was necessary. And now we only hurt our own cause by continuing to curse the bleeding heart liberals and the natives for making us get rid of our precious mascot and by glorifying Willie Wampum. If you want Warriors back, stop complaining, get rid of any native american imagery in your profiles, stop wearing willie wampum memorabilia to games, and someone steal that sham of a headdress that the student section passes around and burn it.

...Sorry, didn't mean for this post to get this long. Hope you enjoyed my soapbox!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU....the SI Poll was conducted by the Peter Harris Research Group, an independent polling firm.

That's great. How much I think that matters? Maybe 12%?

You are a smart guy Chicos. You can find every poll that you want that says that Native Americans approve of the Washington Redskins. I wouldn't believe any of it for a second. I know you are going to jump all over that comment so wait a sec. You know as well as I do that stats do lie. Depending on how you look at and interpret the numbers you could make that data say anything that you want. I could take a poll of MUScoopers and easily twist the data to say that eveyone believes that Notre Dame is a jolly good place and that you are a kind old soul who has an undying hatred of Tom Crean.

The reason that I bring up SI sponsoring it is because they would never publish a study that criticized schools or franchises for using native american imagery. They, just like every other form of media, pander to their subscribers. Do you think the Florida State fans and Redskins fans are going to approve when SI releases data that says their beloved team is racist?

However, the opposite is also true. It could be that 91% of natives are happy being called redskins by suburban white folk. The native americans I know personally certainly are not but that is a small sample size. Maybe I hang out with the 9% of angry bitter native americans who take offense at everything.

Here is what I know for sure. Someone else used this example but I liked it so I'm going to use it again. If you truly believe that native americans aren't offended by white people calling them redskins, take the drive up to Lac Du Flambeau, WI. Its a small town in the middle of the Lac Du Flambeau Ojibwa Nation Reservation. Order a beer from Cricket's Pub and call the bartender a redskin. I've spent many a night in that pub and I don't think you would like what the regulars would want to do to you. Be sure to tell them you mean in a respectful way that should bring them pride. I'm sure they will love that.

[brewcity77]

This is rapidly approaching The Everlasting Craptastical Mystery Thread in terms of stupidity.

Guys...you will never agree. You can parrot all the statistics, pics, and arguments you want, this is a completely inane discussion that will never go anywhere. Ever.

[ATL MU Warrior]

fits you perfectly

[GGGG]

If you genuinely believe that ancient Greece had a defined sense of nationhood then you really do not understand the socio-political milieu.

I never said that the Greeks had a defined sense of nationhood.

[GGGG]

If you believe this, Keefe is right you know nothing about ancient greece. 

For one, yes Spartans were a different ethnicity.  Typically then referred to as Dorians.  Athenians were of Ionian descent and Thebes of Aeolian descent.  Greek was a hodgepodge of ethnicities, which is partially why the city states feuded so often.

Now back to whatever it is everyone is arguing about.

Dorians are oftentimes considered part of a greater Greek ethnicity.  Probably like how certain native american tribes were different from one another, but are now considered part of a larger native american ethnicity.

But whatever.  MSU is not only not called the "Michigan State Dorians," but they aren't called whatever derogatory nickname that the Dorians might have had.

It's simply a bad parallel. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's great. How much I think that matters? Maybe 12%?

You are a smart guy Chicos. You can find every poll that you want that says that Native Americans approve of the Washington Redskins. I wouldn't believe any of it for a second. I know you are going to jump all over that comment so wait a sec. You know as well as I do that stats do lie. Depending on how you look at and interpret the numbers you could make that data say anything that you want. I could take a poll of MUScoopers and easily twist the data to say that eveyone believes that Notre Dame is a jolly good place and that you are a kind old soul who has an undying hatred of Tom Crean.

The reason that I bring up SI sponsoring it is because they would never publish a study that criticized schools or franchises for using native american imagery. They, just like every other form of media, pander to their subscribers. Do you think the Florida State fans and Redskins fans are going to approve when SI releases data that says their beloved team is racist?

However, the opposite is also true. It could be that 91% of natives are happy being called redskins by suburban white folk. The native americans I know personally certainly are not but that is a small sample size. Maybe I hang out with the 9% of angry bitter native americans who take offense at everything.

Here is what I know for sure. Someone else used this example but I liked it so I'm going to use it again. If you truly believe that native americans aren't offended by white people calling them redskins, take the drive up to Lac Du Flambeau, WI. Its a small town in the middle of the Lac Du Flambeau Ojibwa Nation Reservation. Order a beer from Cricket's Pub and call the bartender a redskin. I've spent many a night in that pub and I don't think you would like what the regulars would want to do to you. Be sure to tell them you mean in a respectful way that should bring them pride. I'm sure they will love that.

So you will believe the data when it suits your beliefs but not when it doesn't?  Sure, stats can lie, but that's why when you have multiple studies, or polls, etc, done differently by different firms each time and they use the scientific method AND they all come out the same, well that's when it becomes a bit more than just a random statistic.

I like your example, but no one ever responds to mine.  Say I go to any of the Native American high schools with the Redskins name and I wear a Redskins shirt and I cheer at the top of my lungs saying GO REDSKINS.  I make up a sign, run around like a mad man with war paint on my face.  Think the other fans there are going to come down on me?  Think they are going to think it's problematic...afterall this is the name of their team.  That is what we are talking about, right, the name of a team? 

[ATL MU Warrior]

So you will believe the data when it suits your beliefs but not when it doesn't?  Sure, stats can lie, but that's why when you have multiple studies, or polls, etc, done differently by different firms each time and they use the scientific method AND they all come out the same, well that's when it becomes a bit more than just a random statistic.

I like your example, but no one ever responds to mine.  Say I go to any of the Native American high schools with the Redskins name and I wear a Redskins shirt and I cheer at the top of my lungs saying GO REDSKINS.  I make up a sign, run around like a mad man with war paint on my face.  Think the other fans there are going to come down on me?  Think they are going to think it's problematic...afterall this is the name of their team.  That is what we are talking about, right, the name of a team? 

I think if a white dude started doing what you are describing at this imaginary game there would definitely be issues.

There is your response.  Now please respond to the scenario posed by TAMU.

This should be entertaining.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think if a white dude started doing what you are describing at this imaginary game there would definitely be issues.

There is your response.  Now please respond to the scenario posed by TAMU.

This should be entertaining.

You think a lot of things that you have been wrong on, so why should this be any different?  How's that debt and deficit going...you were spectacular on that one the other day.  Spectacular.

With your logic when Notre Dame had an African American student play the leprechan a few years ago there should be mass protests, etc. Or are you trying to have it both ways again?  I'll bet there were people outraged, there always are.  I'll bet most people had no issue, especially Irish Americans.  Sort of like...drumroll...most Native Americans don't care either in poll after poll after poll.

Your example and TAMUs I have addressed already in this very thread.  It is not only stupid, it is not practical.  Would I go into a bar in Minnesota with a bunch of Norwegians and say "Hey Viking, get me a drink"?  Of course not, that's not how we communicate with people.  Just as I wouldn't go to a tall guy and say "hey Giant".  Does that make Vikings a bad nickname or Giants?  Would you say "Hey Celtic" to a bunch of Scots?  Well, if not, then is Celtic not appropriate?  Would I go up to an Irish person and call them Irish, or would I just say "Hi Sean, can can I have a beer?"    So the example is absurd because that's not how we talk to people,  That doesn't mean we can't have symbols, names, etc for sports teams.  Quite a different argument.  

TAMU has an issue with the Cleveland Browns name as well, so it's hard for me to really understand where he is coming from.  Is that because he couldn't go into a bar and say "Hey Brown, get me a drink?"  No one would do that anyway, but does that make the Browns name off base...a name that came about because of....drum roll...PAUL BROWN?   So I think the straw man example you guys give is just that....a straw man and absolutely absurd because no one communicates like that one to one.   Doesn't mean you can't have a team name like the All Blacks from New Zealand, or the Celtics, or the Indians, or the Redskins, or the Fighting Irish or the Braves or the Giants, etc, etc.

[GGGG]

You think a lot of things that you have been wrong on, so why should this be any different?  How's that debt and deficit going...you were spectacular on that one the other day. 

Says the guy who was wrong about Deadspin less than 30 minutes ago.

Very odd.  Strange.  Weird.