MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: MU82 on December 12, 2017, 11:14:08 AM
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Here's the deal ...
Most of y'all know I was raised Jewish and am now an atheist. I try not to be an in-your-face atheist, but I probably have failed a few times here on Scoop. In general, I keep it pretty low-key, in great part because my wife is still uncomfortable admitting she doesn't believe in God - especially at Christmastime, and especially in the Bible Belt where we now live.
Anyhoo ...
We got new next-door neighbors about 2 years ago, Debi and Tim. They are 60-ish and very nice, although the woman is a bit eccentric. We have not socialized with them (in other words, have not gone out to eat with them or done other such activities) but we are friendly with them - say hi whenever we see each other, make conversation, etc. They have a great dog, and they love our dog, and the two dogs like to play together. A few months back, we were going out of town and our dog-sitter got sick, and this couple watched our dog for an entire week. Above and beyond the call of duty. We gave them a $100 gift card to a nice restaurant to show how much we appreciated it; they nicely said it was their pleasure.
Anyhoo ...
About an hour ago, my dog starts barking her head off. I finally get off my arse to see what's going on, and it's Debi putting Christmas ornaments on the little Japanese maple tree about 20 feet outside our front door. She knows we love the Panthers, and they are Panthers-themed orbs.
Frankly, I couldn't believe it. If I were still a practicing Jew, with it being Hanukkah, I never would stealthily go to a neighbor's house and decorate it with menorahs and dreidels. But that's life in the Bible Belt.
So we have a couple of choices:
1. Live with it even though I really, really don't want Christmas ornaments on my effen tree. We'll never be best friends with Debi and Tim, but they live right next door, we want to keep the peace, and we might need them to watch our dog again.
2. Remove the ornaments and return them to Debi and Tim. Tell them we love having them as neighbors and we know they did it out of friendship, kindness and neighborliness, but politely explain that we are not religious people and we really don't want Christmas ornaments on our tree. We probably could "pull it off" better if we claim to be Jewish - I have found that folks here don't want to offend those from other religions, but they're less worried about atheists - but I absolutely will not lie about my beliefs (or lack thereof).
It would be a difficult conversation to have, and maybe better handled by a very nicely worded note? Although that would be a more wussy way to do it.
If it were up to my wife, I think we would choose Door No. 1. But she knows how I feel about it and is supporting me. She just asked me to wait till she gets home from work so we can talk about it and formulate a plan. I of course agreed ... although I did say that if Debi happens to see me when I'm walking the dog and asks me about it, I will have little choice to very politely tell her the truth.
Suggestions?
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Here's the deal ...
Most of y'all know I was raised Jewish and am now an atheist. I try not to be an in-your-face atheist, but I probably have failed a few times here on Scoop. In general, I keep it pretty low-key, in great part because my wife is still uncomfortable admitting she doesn't believe in God - especially at Christmastime, and especially in the Bible Belt where we now live.
Anyhoo ...
We got new next-door neighbors about 2 years ago, Debi and Tim. They are 60-ish and very nice, although the woman is a bit eccentric. We have not socialized with them (in other words, have not gone out to eat with them or done other such activities) but we are friendly with them - say hi whenever we see each other, make conversation, etc. They have a great dog, and they love our dog, and the two dogs like to play together. A few months back, we were going out of town and our dog-sitter got sick, and this couple watched our dog for an entire week. Above and beyond the call of duty. We gave them a $100 gift card to a nice restaurant to show how much we appreciated it; they nicely said it was their pleasure.
Anyhoo ...
About an hour ago, my dog starts barking her head off. I finally get off my arse to see what's going on, and it's Debi putting Christmas ornaments on the little Japanese maple tree about 20 feet outside our front door. She knows we love the Panthers, and they are Panthers-themed orbs.
Frankly, I couldn't believe it. If I were still a practicing Jew, with it being Hanukkah, I never would stealthily go to a neighbor's house and decorate it with menorahs and dreidels. But that's life in the Bible Belt.
So we have a couple of choices:
1. Live with it even though I really, really don't want Christmas ornaments on my effen tree. We'll never be best friends with Debi and Tim, but they live right next door, we want to keep the peace, and we might need them to watch our dog again.
2. Remove the ornaments and return them to Debi and Tim. Tell them we love having them as neighbors and we know they did it out of friendship, kindness and neighborliness, but politely explain that we are not religious people and we really don't want Christmas ornaments on our tree. We probably could "pull it off" better if we claim to be Jewish - I have found that folks here don't want to offend those from other religions, but they're less worried about atheists - but I absolutely will not lie about my beliefs (or lack thereof).
It would be a difficult conversation to have, and maybe better handled by a very nicely worded note? Although that would be a more wussy way to do it.
If it were up to my wife, I think we would choose Door No. 1. But she knows how I feel about it and is supporting me. She just asked me to wait till she gets home from work so we can talk about it and formulate a plan. I of course agreed ... although I did say that if Debi happens to see me when I'm walking the dog and asks me about it, I will have little choice to very politely tell her the truth.
Suggestions?
You mean you aren't packing to deal with trespassers?
I've always thought that conversation is the best course of action. I have a similar view as you that I feel that avoidance (whether through acceptance or lying about your faith) is a means to an end but ultimately benefits no one. If I am unfortunate to find myself in mass around the holidays with my family, I know others who are like-minded non-believers who were raised Catholic and still go up for communion. To me, this is the ultimate sign of disrespect to avoid an uncomfortable situation (not likely to have a dialogue, mind you, given the context).
It's an uncomfortable conversation for anyone, much more so in your part of the country. But it's a conversation worth having - how one can have an ethical worldview without it being firmly grounded in faith. When asked about mine, I don't shy away from the fact that I felt 16 years of Catholic education benefited me. I pull no punches when saying that MU was the best of these because it didn't teach faith as a fact (topic for another thread - the pedagogy of religion in developing minds). But the ethical abstraction of those teachings undoubtedly benefit me and how I interact with the world unless MU or the Packers are losing.
I truly believe this is one of the only ways we can begin to move forward as a society, however incrementally that may be.
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It's a nice gesture and her heart is in the right place. If she set up a Nativity scene, that be one thing but they're sports-themed decorations. I'd say let it go and when you see her, mention somewhat light-heartedly that you were raised Jewish so Christmas ornaments are a new concept for you Haha...neighbor small-talk...move on. Ideally, she'd get the message that you don't celebrate Christmas without you being a d!ck and giving the ornaments back ;)
Side question: Do you simply not celebrate any sort of holiday(s) in December? As in, you don't acknowledge Hanukkah or Christmas are taking place? Have you given Festivus a try?
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MU82
I would live it with it and maybe mention it in passing down the road. The gesture was nice and why make her feel badly.
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Does she think it is her tree? Weird if religious or not to decorate my neighbor's tree unless joking or good natured about your team. Considering they are not close friends, she may be confused as to her propoerty line? That could be your conversation starter...
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Side question: Do you simply not celebrate any sort of holiday(s) in December? As in, you don't acknowledge Hanukkah or Christmas are taking place? Have you given Festivus a try?
Correct. No holidays. Not even Festivus for the bestuvus.
We actually got invited to a non-religious gathering on Christmas Eve this year from one of my wife's work friends. It will be interesting to see. The hosts are non-practicing Christians but they do celebrate Christmas, but several of our fellow guests are atheists.
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A challenge for sure. Struggling to get my arms around putting decorations on someone else's tree. Personally I find that pretty presumptuous. While I wouldn't 'let it go', I'd find the least confrontational way possible to deal with it. The 'I was raised Jewish' is good. This is legitimate white lie time. Good luck and happy Festivus!
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Does she think it is her tree? Weird if religious or not to decorate my neighbor's tree unless joking or good natured about your team. Considering they are not close friends, she may be confused as to her propoerty line? That could be your conversation starter...
Definitely nowhere near the property line. 100% our tree. She knew exactly what she was doing ... just didn't know the beliefs (or lack thereof) of the people she was doing it for.
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It's a nice gesture and her heart is in the right place. If she set up a Nativity scene, that be one thing but they're sports-themed decorations. I'd say let it go and when you see her, mention somewhat light-heartedly that you were raised Jewish so Christmas ornaments are a new concept for you Haha...neighbor small-talk...move on. Ideally, she'd get the message that you don't celebrate Christmas without you being a d!ck and giving the ornaments back ;)
Side question: Do you simply not celebrate any sort of holiday(s) in December? As in, you don't acknowledge Hanukkah or Christmas are taking place? Have you given Festivus a try?
This response is absolutely perfect.
Bro, you need to resist being "that guy"
Which guy?
(http://cdn-webimages.wimages.net/0517ab00d9343c634428d48da2c83cb61f6349-wm.jpg?v=3)
That guy. Don't be that guy.
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Definitely nowhere near the property line. 100% our tree. She knew exactly what she was doing ... just didn't know the beliefs (or lack thereof) of the people she was doing it for.
Plot twist: She, too, is an atheist, which is why she put Cam Newton--rather than an angel-- on top of the tree.
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I think a polite conversation -- expressing your appreciation for the obvious attempt to be thoughtful and generous -- is the way to go. I wouldn't focus on the "I grew up Jewish" angle, or you'll find a menorah on your front lawn at some point in the future. I say go with total honesty, but tempered with a sincere expression of appreciation for the fact that she was trying to be kind.
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If you have this lying around your house, put it up on top of your tree and thank your neighbor for reminding you that, while not a Christian (or a practicing Jew), you are still a monotheist:
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/a2/62/7b/a2627bc8dfded4e709bf0f9255e7116c.jpg)
You can’t spell “Almighty” without “Al!”
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Christmas is December 25. The NFL season ends December 31, and I presume that the general consensus is that Carolina will be playing into January.
So let's assume 82 takes no action... are the "orbs" otherwise being taken down on December 26th or are they going to be left up until Carolina's season is over. Seriously. Because if it's the latter, then that means they could still be hanging on February 4th, and honestly, I don't know of anyone who leaves Christmas decorations up until February.
So has anyone considered the possibility that these are "Carolina Panthers" ornaments and not Christmas ornaments? Frankly, I don't see how anything sporting a Panther logo (or the logo of any NFL team, for that matter) could in any manner be construed by an objective person as being a symbol or celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. So don't ascribe something that isn't there to something you're otherwise happy to support.
In other words, eye of the beholder. If you look at them as a celebration of your love of the Panthers and not as some sort of religious symbol, it will be all good in the neighborhood.
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MU82
I would live it with it and maybe mention it in passing down the road. The gesture was nice and why make her feel badly.
This. She is trying to be a good neighbor and is doing something from her heart. Be grateful she isn't a bad neighbor. Have a conversation sometime later when the time is right.
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It's a bit of a tough one but I don't get the putting decorations on someone else's tree. That feels invasive and not "just being nice". Not saying that she is doing it to be mean or something but I wouldn't be surprised if she has some inkling of your affiliations or lack thereof and is being passive aggressive about it.
Either way I stand with Tecumseh on this one "So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours....". I wouldn't deflect behind the Jewish faith simply because it's not the reason it bothers you. I think Merritt's idea of turning it into a joke is the right approach, something like "It was pretty funny to see the Panther ornaments, we don't do Christmas, so I didn't know they came in those flavors" or something to that effect. I think you want to walk the line between confrontation but making sure to establish that this wasn't cool but without being a pain about it.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/3f/3f5243228fc05f42c957998f1959363ad01445a3baec687ee606a5390dfeffc4.jpg)
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MU82
I would live it with it and maybe mention it in passing down the road. The gesture was nice and why make her feel badly.
I agree here with Goose & and Sultan, but don't wait too much long, I would before the end of January, so it's not even that much awkward and it's like mid-May and you come along, hey remember back in the first week of December, you did that weird thing with the ornaments?!?!
Maybe around New Years (eve of Panther's playoff game?), return the favor, and decorate one of her trees and leave a nice note?
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But does your or their dog piss on that tree?
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I agree here with Goose & and Sultan, but don't wait too much long, I would before the end of January, so it's not even that much awkward and it's like mid-May and you come along, hey remember back in the first week of December, you did that weird thing with the ornaments?!?!
Maybe around New Years (eve of Panther's playoff game?), return the favor, and decorate one of her trees and leave a nice note?
Don't get mad, get even. Invite them over to share some holiday cheer...or put a Bo Ryan Grinch blow up in their yard. Form a witch and warlock circle on their driveway.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/46/c9/de/46c9deb0a9a4778d269142a41a081fc9--family-christmas-photos-christmas-trees.jpg)
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This response is absolutely perfect.
Bro, you need to resist being "that guy"
Which guy?
That guy. Don't be that guy.
Assuming they are not Panther ornaments but were meant as Christmas ornaments....why is it OK for her to assume he's christian and put celebratory religious objects in his yard and its not OK for 82 to tell her he's atheist?
To the situation I, as an atheist, would VERY graciously thank them for they gesture and make sure they understood my beliefs. Just like if a thoughtful neighbor gifted you a Quran - they may think you are scholarly and wish to learn about religions or they may think you're Muslim. I'm going to graciously explain to them I'm neither.
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Always make someone else the scapegoat. ;)
"This was a lovely gesture, but my Jewish mother would have a literal stroke if she saw anything remotely resembling a Christmas tree on my property."
"I really, really like my landscape designer, and if she saw that I made any changes to her carefully-planned scheme without consulting her first, she would drop me as a client."
"I don't want to get in trouble with the HOA, and I am not sure these decorations are within the covenants. I'd better take them down just to be on the safe side."
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Correct. No holidays. Not even Festivus for the bestuvus.
I'm a little surprised to hear that, although of course that is absolutely fine. Over the years, it seems to me that Christmas has morphed into a secular holiday for a large part of the non-Christian world. I work with several folks from India, none of whom are Christian, but most of whom put up Christmas trees and have Santa Claus bring gifts to their kids. They look at it as joining American culture more than Christian culture.
As for your issue, I always find being direct and honest is the best policy. If it really offends you to have the ornaments on the tree, tell your neighbors in the nicest way possible that the gesture was wonderfully nice of them, but that you are not particularly religious and would prefer to avoid the trappings of Christmas. You could say non-Christian rather than non-religious, as that would certainly be the truth. I wouldn't lie and say Jewish. Tell them you value their friendship and hope this doesn't cause an issue. Most people are very understanding about such things. (And if they're not, well, you don't need that in your life anyway.)
I'm a mid 50s Catholic and I would not be the least bit upset or offended if my neighbors told me they were atheist, and I would retain friendship with them. After all, going to Hell is their business. Of course I would never presume to decorate someone else's yard, either.
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I am reading all of these, folks. Please keep 'em coming.
The funny ones made me chuckle, but I especially appreciate the serious ones. It really is a difficult dilemma for me and my wife.
My wife (who is at work) just asked me to take a pic and send it to her, which I did. Here's the response she texted back to me:
"WOW ... that is ballsy. Lots of nerve, I must say. And they light up? Of course they do. Why do I even ask? We'll talk about this later and figure it out."
I am not going to answer every one of your comments because I don't want to start arguing Point A, B and C, and then having others come back arguing their points. I do appreciate the gentle debate between some of you.
I plan to share this thread with my wife so she can read others' ideas as we discuss our options ... so please keep it clean!
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Decorating someone else's property? That's a bold strategy Cotton.
I tend to do a risk/benefit analysis in these situation. Is the benefit of not having your tree forcibly decorated (now and in the future, because this could happen every year) worth the risk of possibly damaging the neighborly relationship you have with these people? Only you can answer that.
FWIW, I think you are well within your rights to take the ornaments down and talk to your neighbor. As others have said, her actions come from a good place so recognizing that would be important.
Personally, I am non-confrontational so I probably wouldn't say anything (even if I wanted to). Lucky for me I married a New Yorker so my wife would go confront them for me! ;D
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It's too bad you actually caught them in the act.
Otherwise, you could have called the police and reported it as an act of vandalism.
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It's too bad you actually caught them in the act.
Otherwise, you could have called the police and reported it as an act of vandalism.
It's only vandalism if it's Vikings-themed.
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LXXXII,
Man, you fooked dis up major already. Ya gotta cum clean. Tell’m ya got your schmeckel snipped on da ate dey, married a Catholic, and y’all are just kumbain’ to da beet of a different drumma. Honesty is yo best choice, dude, ai na?
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MU 82:
You are in Charlotte, so the question is whether the neighbors are long-termers and subscribers to a fundamentalist Christian sect common to the Southeast? It's been awhile since I lived in the south, but I tended to see more of this there than in the Midwest, for example.
I'd suggest a couple of answers:
1) Is this a common custom in your neighborhood? If so, you may be swimming upstream.
2) How important is "going along to getting along" in your neighborhood? If it's a Big Deal, you may want to choose Door Number 1 to avoid being the neighborhood pariah.
I don't know how important your neighborhood relations overall might be, but in our community we're careful. We tend to avoid politics, for example, because it's a volatile issue and we don't always think the way our neighbors do. Sometimes you just have to look beyond the slights that others post.
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Cut down the fuggin' tree and throw it in her yard.
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Or buy them a freedom from religion foundation membership for the year.
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So I googled "Neighbors decorated my tree" to see if this was a common occurrence because I was genuinely curious. It doesn't seem to be...but I found this in one of the first couple of links
(http://i.redd.it/2lj8t6c7e61y.jpg)
Is this your tree 82?
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Is this a Carolina Panther thing? #keeppounding
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/superbowl/2016/01/30/neighbors-decorate-coach-riveras-yard/79567476/
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MU82
I would live it with it and maybe mention it in passing down the road. The gesture was nice and why make her feel badly.
Mike, I agree with Merritt and Goose.
It would be the same in my household if the same situation arose and my wife would be giving the same advice as yours. She is Buddhist, but does not object to celebrating Christmas.
Since it is sports-themed, I don't think it needs to be called out to a neighbor.
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Honesty and kindness, two things done together that never go out of style.
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So I googled "Neighbors decorated my tree" to see if this was a common occurrence because I was genuinely curious. It doesn't seem to be...but I found this in one of the first couple of links
(http://i.redd.it/2lj8t6c7e61y.jpg)
Is this your tree 82?
It looks like if an alien is ummm, ya know...
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Tell 'em to lick ur matzo ballz
C'mon man.. is this really a topic?
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I'd just go out in the dark of night, pull 'em all down and trash 'em...and then tell the neighbor that you heard a racket in the yard in the middle of the night.
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Must be something about you that would make ppl think it’s cool to decorate your yard. Y’all swinging over there or what?
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Must be something about you that would make ppl think it’s cool to decorate your yard. Y’all swinging over there or what?
I've never heard the phrase "swinging christian" before but i like it. It's anyone that professes to be christian but is openly hostile to 'others' right?
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give 'em another C-note to take 'em off ;D or start off every morning walkin out to get the charlotte observer in your tighty whitey's pulled into an atomic wedgie-you'll see a for sale sign faster than chester the molester's first happy ending watching the baywatch intro
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Is this a Carolina Panther thing? #keeppounding
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/superbowl/2016/01/30/neighbors-decorate-coach-riveras-yard/79567476/
Considering 60-ish and eccentric, I could see how one might mistake 82 for a professional athlete if you added senile and legally blind to the neighbors’ description.
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Here's what we decided ...
I decided to let my wife take the lead. She is more sensitive about our atheism and about being potentially ostracized.
She thinks that Debi will be embarrassed that she assumed we were Christian. She thinks that as long as we handle it well, she will gladly remove the ornaments and there will be no backlash whatsoever.
Rather than approach them in person - which would elicit an immediate, face-to-face reaction - my wife is going to write Debi a nice text in the morning. She is going to politely explain that we are not religious people and that we are uncomfortable having Christmas ornaments on our tree, but she is going to make sure she says how much we like having them as our neighbors and that we know it was a gesture of kindness on their part.
This seems the right course of action to me, too.
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Here's what we decided ...
I decided to let my wife take the lead. She is more sensitive about our atheism and about being potentially ostracized.
She thinks that Debi will be embarrassed that she assumed we were Christian. She thinks that as long as we handle it well, she will gladly remove the ornaments and there will be no backlash whatsoever.
Rather than approach them in person - which would elicit an immediate, face-to-face reaction - my wife is going to write Debi a nice text in the morning. She is going to politely explain that we are not religious people and that we are uncomfortable having Christmas ornaments on our tree, but she is going to make sure she says how much we like having them as our neighbors and that we know it was a gesture of kindness on their part.
This seems the right course of action to me, too.
Scene from 82's neighborhood tomorrow...
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/creepypasta/images/0/05/House-on-fire-o.gif/revision/latest?cb=20130528190013)
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Scene from 82's neighborhood tomorrow...
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/creepypasta/images/0/05/House-on-fire-o.gif/revision/latest?cb=20130528190013)
Well, at least it's not a burning cross.
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Here's what we decided ...
I decided to let my wife take the lead. She is more sensitive about our atheism and about being potentially ostracized.
She thinks that Debi will be embarrassed that she assumed we were Christian. She thinks that as long as we handle it well, she will gladly remove the ornaments and there will be no backlash whatsoever.
Rather than approach them in person - which would elicit an immediate, face-to-face reaction - my wife is going to write Debi a nice text in the morning. She is going to politely explain that we are not religious people and that we are uncomfortable having Christmas ornaments on our tree, but she is going to make sure she says how much we like having them as our neighbors and that we know it was a gesture of kindness on their part.
This seems the right course of action to me, too.
Over-sensitive pansies, IMO
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Here's what we decided ...
I decided to let my wife take the lead. She is more sensitive about our atheism and about being potentially ostracized.
She thinks that Debi will be embarrassed that she assumed we were Christian. She thinks that as long as we handle it well, she will gladly remove the ornaments and there will be no backlash whatsoever.
Rather than approach them in person - which would elicit an immediate, face-to-face reaction - my wife is going to write Debi a nice text in the morning. She is going to politely explain that we are not religious people and that we are uncomfortable having Christmas ornaments on our tree, but she is going to make sure she says how much we like having them as our neighbors and that we know it was a gesture of kindness on their part.
This seems the right course of action to me, too.
Did she though? As someone mentioned above, Christmas--especially in the US--is almost a national holiday rather than a religious one. I mean, look at Halloween. Does anyone who "celebrates" Halloween actually care about its origins?
Take a look at the decadent Christmas lights in Japan, a country that loves Christmas but is apathetic about Christianity:
https://www.accessible-japan.com/christmas-lights-japan/
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Did she though?
Well, assuming we stay friendly enough with them to have casual conversations, we eventually might find out what she thought our religious affiliation was.
As for one of your earlier posts ... I already had said I am not an in-your-face atheist. If I were, I'd already have handled this and I certainly wouldn't have reached out to my Scoop friends for their take.
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Over-sensitive pansies, IMO
Skol, Panthers, IMO
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I think your neighbors are just being festive and from all accounts you get along with them. Life has all sorts of twists and turns and keeping good neighbor relations is a good asset. So if it was up to me I would just let it go. Then deal with it in advance next year. Let your wife handle that discussion.
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Probably a little late. But one route would be to thank them for the decorations, and mention that it was very kind of them to go with a sports theme as you are not religious and would usually not want any Christmas themed decorations.
It would simultaneously thank them, make it seem like they were being thoughtful of your religious stance (even though they were actually unaware), but also let them know where you stand so there are not issues down the road.
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if you've ever watched ID tv, they have a whole slew of episodes on stuff like this-it's called "fear thy neighbor". after watching a few of those, i think you might be better off smiling and trying to make light of it or getting yourself a couple of guns
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Probably a little late. But one route would be to thank them for the decorations, and mention that it was very kind of them to go with a sports theme as you are not religious and would usually not want any Christmas themed decorations.
It would simultaneously thank them, make it seem like they were being thoughtful of your religious stance (even though they were actually unaware), but also let them know where you stand so there are not issues down the road.
This has definitely been my favorite option so far. Seems like everyone wins while still addressing the problem at hand.
Thought I'm probably not the person to ask about neighbor relations seeing as I've only lived in condos/apartments my entire life.
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Thought I'm probably not the person to ask about neighbor relations seeing as I've only lived in condos/apartments my entire life.
You don’t have neighbors in apts/condos?
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Maybe she's really into practical jokes. She realized that in all these years of being neighbors, not once has Mike mentioned Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So she's suspicious and decides to play a friendly practical joke to say "I'm onto you." What better way than to hang some Christmas ornaments in the yard of her non-Christian neighbor. But she uses secular ornaments so as not to offend and knows Mike is a Panthers fan, since he's mentioned that more than Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Now she's sitting back and waiting for Mike to return the favor with his own practical joke. A way to say, "I know what you did.". But you gotta up the ante. So when she heads off to Sunday Mass, break into her house, steal her best leather bound bible, make it into a belt, wrap it up, and stick it under the Christmas tree. She opens the gift on Christmas morning and voila! she now owns her very own bible belt.
As for my serious advice, I was thinking something along the lines of forgetful's advice. A polite thanks but no thanks.
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Turnabout is fair play.
You need to create a Panthers-themed Kinara and put that in their yard:
(http://www.museumofplay.org/online-collections/images/Z000/Z00038/Z0003810.jpg)
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Well, at least it's not a burning cross.
what good what that be to an atheist?
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I am with TAMU and JayBee...a little weird that neighbors start decorating your yard. Appeasement is not an option. Blow up Easter Bunnies will be next.
I say Santa's sleigh visits overnight.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xHhjcK7y3XM/S_Xl-Pu6KhI/AAAAAAAAEW0/fCJvIrWmOIE/s1600/lawn+job.jpg)
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Well, it's done.
As I said, I followed my wife's lead. She texted Debi this morning say that while we really appreciated her obvious act of kindness, we do not celebrate Christmas and would rather not have ornaments on our tree. She mentioned our Jewish background but said we don't celebrate Jewish holidays, either. (As you can see, Mrs. 82 is still uncomfortable publicly acknowledging she's an atheist; I said I'd prefer to leave Jewishness out of it, but I deferred to her because I wanted her to be comfortable.) She said we value them as neighbors and friends, and that we hope they understand.
Debi responded that she knows we're Panthers fans and she was inspired by Sunday's game to put the ornaments in our tree. But she said she fully understands and, "of course we value you as neighbors and friends, too." She says she'll remove the ornaments when she's done with work.
I thank all Scoopers, both the serious folks and the more "hilarious" ones, for helping me (and my wife) think this through.
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Did you ever consider that due to the nature of the ornaments this was meant as a celebration of the Carolina Panthers and not the birth of Jesus? After all, a tree decorated with images of Newtons, Riveras and sleek black cats isn't exactly what I would call in your face religiosity. My guess is they knew you shared (with them) fandom to a particular football team and wanted to have some fun with it - nothing more, nothing less. If you wanted to have a discussion about your atheism with neighbors this might provide an easy segue - otherwise, I think you're being a bit too sensitive.
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Did you ever consider that due to the nature of the ornaments this was meant as a celebration of the Carolina Panthers and not the birth of Jesus? After all, a tree decorated with images of Newtons, Riveras and sleek black cats isn't exactly what I would call in your face religiosity. My guess is they knew you shared (with them) fandom to a particular football team and wanted to have some fun with it - nothing more, nothing less. If you wanted to have a discussion about your atheism with neighbors about your atheism this might provide an easy segue - otherwise, I think you're being a bit too sensitive.
We did consider it.
We still didn't want Christmas ornaments - which they unmistakenly are - in the tree that sits 20 feet in front of our door.
I don't feel the neighbor did anything with "bad intent." We're not angry about it. We didn't rip the down the ornaments, put them in a box and leave them on the neighbor's porch.
We simple don't want the ornaments in our tree. I haven't heard one reason it's a bad thing for atheists to not want people coming into their yard and putting Christmas ornaments in their tree.
I mean, I could go with all kinds of analogies, but I don't see why it's necessary. The more my wife and I discussed it, the simpler it became: We didn't want the ornaments in our tree.
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Option #2 in due time. They'll notice that you don't put up a tree in the window for all to see or decorate with elves humping reindeer soon enough.
When you do, make a point to mention something about your value system/philosophy. I think there's a lot of folk that believe atheists to have no values or amoral.
And Panthers fan??? Jebus H Crackers!
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And Panthers fan??? Jebus H Crackers!
That's way more offensive than being an atheist.
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We did consider it.
We still didn't want Christmas ornaments - which they unmistakenly are - in the tree that sits 20 feet in front of our door.
I don't feel the neighbor did anything with "bad intent." We're not angry about it. We didn't rip the down the ornaments, put them in a box and leave them on the neighbor's porch.
We simple don't want the ornaments in our tree. I haven't heard one reason it's a bad thing for atheists to not want people coming into their yard and putting Christmas ornaments in their tree.
I mean, I could go with all kinds of analogies, but I don't see why it's necessary. The more my wife and I discussed it, the simpler it became: We didn't want the ornaments in our tree.
With all due respect...Why does it matter so much? Why are you so adamant about not having a few Panthers decorations on your tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of Christmas? Does the idea of God offend you in some great capacity? Or is it a matter of not wanting clutter in your yard?
Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm genuinely curious.
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With all due respect...Why does it matter so much? Why are you so adamant about not having a few Panthers decorations on your tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of Christmas? Does the idea of God offend you in some great capacity? Or is it a matter of not wanting clutter in your yard?
Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm genuinely curious.
Why does it matter? This literally is invading his personal space (his own property) the reasons don't matter.
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Did you ever consider that due to the nature of the ornaments this was meant as a celebration of the Carolina Panthers and not the birth of Jesus? After all, a tree decorated with images of Newtons, Riveras and sleek black cats isn't exactly what I would call in your face religiosity. My guess is they knew you shared (with them) fandom to a particular football team and wanted to have some fun with it - nothing more, nothing less. If you wanted to have a discussion about your atheism with neighbors this might provide an easy segue - otherwise, I think you're being a bit too sensitive.
All kidding aside, and Lenny you just moved to the South (but I suspect in a Northern Enclave), but this incident isn't unusual. Luckily, in this case, it was in fun and good natured. Living in the Bible Belt is unusual, to say the least. Mike and his wife handled it in the right way.
I have a good friend, raised in the rural South. Highly educated, liberal. When she moved north, she was stunned to learn their are other religions or beliefs or lifestyles than born-again Christians. Diversity was a culture shock for her, one that she has fully embraced.
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Why does it matter? This literally is invading his personal space (his own property) the reasons don't matter.
I don't want to speak for MU82, but since he brought up being atheist and not celebrating Christmas, it seems to me that the issue was less about "invading his personal space" and more about religious decorations on his property.
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Way to stay classy, Mike.
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I don't want to speak for MU82, but since he brought up being atheist and not celebrating Christmas, it seems to me that the issue was less about "invading his personal space" and more about religious decorations on his property.
Sure, but what if he hated the Panthers? He could be just as "disgruntled", the reason for the discomfort is somewhat immaterial...it's the presumption by the neighbors that MU82's position aligns with their own and that they can invade their personal space with that presumption.
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With all due respect...Why does it matter so much? Why are you so adamant about not having a few Panthers decorations on your tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of Christmas? Does the idea of God offend you in some great capacity? Or is it a matter of not wanting clutter in your yard?
Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm genuinely curious.
MM, I take this as an opportunity to get to know each other better, so I do not feel disrespected by you.
The "idea of God" doesn't offend me. I simply do not believe that God is real. I am not opposed to "the concept of Christmas." I simply do not want the concept of Christmas forced upon me.
My wife and I joke all the time about the alleged "war against Christmas" because we think it's the exact opposite. Christmas is everywhere, all the time, from Nov. 1 on. It's in everybody's faces, day and night, like it or not. It's inescapable. People don't even think for a second that the person they're wishing Merry Christmas to might not be a Christian. "I'm a Christian, so this guy is gonna hear about Christmas from me." I'm not a jerk, so I smile and respond, "Thanks, same to you." It doesn't matter to me.
But my house and my yard and, as mu03 eloquently put it, my "personal space" ... those matter to me. I don't believe in either Christmas or God, and I don't want symbols of Christmas hanging in a tree that sits 20 feet in front of my door. If I had to have any ornaments, sure Panthers ornaments or Marquette ornaments are what I'd choose, but we don't want any ornaments - and THAT is what we choose.
I love Marquette, and I own lots of Marquette stuff, but I don't own a big cross that says Marquette on it, or a sweatshirt with Gesu church on it. It doesn't bother me in the least if some do, but if somebody gives me a sweatshirt with a church on it, it's getting donated to charity.
I'll flip this around, MM - again, with respect - because I also am curious.
Why are some Scoopers (perhaps even you) so adamant that my wife and I should be willing to leave Christmas decorations we didn't want in our tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of non-Christians choosing not to celebrate Christmas? Does the idea of atheism offend you in some great capacity?
Hey, this is always an interesting discussion. It's easier here in an anonymous interwebs setting. It's much more difficult to have, face-to-face, with friends and family.
When we told my wife's side of the family (Catholics) years ago that we were going to raise our children without religion, most of them cut off any association with her. One day, they "loved" her; the next, they wanted nothing to do with her. They're a bunch of a-holes and racists - I'm not misusing either term; they use all kinds of slurs, with their favorite being "tacos" for Mexicans - but we're the immoral ones because we choose not to believe in God. It would be funny if not so sad. This could have harmed our marriage, but my very strong wife's reaction was, "Eff 'em then!"
There are some who believe one can't be moral and decent if one doesn't include God in their lives. We obviously feel differently. There are good and bad people who call themselves Christians, good and bad people who call themselves Jewish, good and bad people who call themselves Muslim, etc ... and good and bad people who call themselves atheists. I won't speak for myself, but I haven't met many people as kind, moral, ethical, decent and big-hearted as Mrs. 82.
I try not to get high-falootin' when discussing this subject. I like talking about religion (and atheism). It's an interesting subject. I even took a class called "Theism and Atheism" at Marquette. Many folks who never thought about being atheists are genuinely curious, and I try to have calm, intelligent discussions with them. This is one of those occasions.
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Well, it's done.
As I said, I followed my wife's lead. She texted Debi this morning say that while we really appreciated her obvious act of kindness, we do not celebrate Christmas and would rather not have ornaments on our tree. She mentioned our Jewish background but said we don't celebrate Jewish holidays, either. (As you can see, Mrs. 82 is still uncomfortable publicly acknowledging she's an atheist; I said I'd prefer to leave Jewishness out of it, but I deferred to her because I wanted her to be comfortable.) She said we value them as neighbors and friends, and that we hope they understand.
Debi responded that she knows we're Panthers fans and she was inspired by Sunday's game to put the ornaments in our tree. But she said she fully understands and, "of course we value you as neighbors and friends, too." She says she'll remove the ornaments when she's done with work.
I thank all Scoopers, both the serious folks and the more "hilarious" ones, for helping me (and my wife) think this through.
Know doubt Debi will give y’all da cold tit goin’ forward, ai na?
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You don’t have neighbors in apts/condos?
He always gets the one's that have empty apartments next to him. He has a very..... Distinct... Smell.
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We did consider it.
We still didn't want Christmas ornaments - which they unmistakenly are - in the tree that sits 20 feet in front of our door.
I don't feel the neighbor did anything with "bad intent." We're not angry about it. We didn't rip the down the ornaments, put them in a box and leave them on the neighbor's porch.
We simple don't want the ornaments in our tree. I haven't heard one reason it's a bad thing for atheists to not want people coming into their yard and putting Christmas ornaments in their tree.
I mean, I could go with all kinds of analogies, but I don't see why it's necessary. The more my wife and I discussed it, the simpler it became: We didn't want the ornaments in our tree.
I'm still with Lenny on this one (or maybe he's with me... whatever), but maybe it's because I'm much more familiar with Catholicism, Judaism and Agnosticism than I am with Atheists, the South or Protestants. So I've got questions:
1) Can you post a picture? I'd honestly like to see what these ornaments look like.
2) Hypothetically, had your neighbor put them up back in Week 1, would you still be looking at these as Christmas ornaments?
3) Presuming there's no religious iconography on or about the ornaments, what's precluding a perception that they're simply a display of Panther pride?
4) Is atheistic opposition to "Christmas Trees/Ornaments" made any more/less palatable by the fact that they're not actually a Christian tradition but rather an extension of Paganism?
5) If you were an Atheistic Bills fan, would this be offensive?
(http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/13-buffalo-bills-fans-bunny-masks-creepy-nfl-fans.jpg)
(Nice touch with the eye black)
Honestly, I would be pissed off if a neighbor did this to me, too. But I would be too upset about the invasion of my space/property that I wouldn't even get around to giving a rat's behind about the religious part.
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I'm still with Lenny on this one (or maybe he's with me... whatever), but maybe it's because I'm much more familiar with Catholicism, Judaism and Agnosticism than I am with Atheists, the South or Protestants. So I've got questions:
1) Can you post a picture? I'd honestly like to see what these ornaments look like.
2) Hypothetically, had your neighbor put them up back in Week 1, would you still be looking at these as Christmas ornaments?
3) Presuming there's no religious iconography on or about the ornaments, what's precluding a perception that they're simply a display of Panther pride?
4) Is atheistic opposition to "Christmas Trees/Ornaments" made any more/less palatable by the fact that they're not actually a Christian tradition but rather an extension of Paganism?
5) If you were an Atheistic Bills fan, would this be offensive?
(http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/13-buffalo-bills-fans-bunny-masks-creepy-nfl-fans.jpg)
(Nice touch with the eye black)
Honestly, I would be pissed off if a neighbor did this to me, too. But I would be too upset about the invasion of my space/property that I wouldn't even get around to giving a rat's behind about the religious part.
1. Ornaments gowne. She took them down about an hour ago. No pics.
2. Yes. They were obviously Christmas ornaments. In addition to not wanting them in my tree, I'd wonder if she had a screw loose for putting up ornaments in September.
3. They might have been a display in Panther pride for the neighbors. Probably were. But these were Christmas ornaments. Period.
4. I didn't know that. And no.
5. No. I'd just think it was stupid.
And while we're being honest, Benny, I'll say this:
If they had put up one of those small NFL yard flags with a Panthers symbol on it next to the driveway, we almost surely would have been fine with it. But if they had put what we believed to be an ugly Panthers symbol, we probably would have taken it down. So was it about "invasion of space," partly.
But, honestly, this was more about us not wanting Christmas ornaments in our tree. Which I think I might have mentioned once or twice earlier.
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I'm still with Lenny on this one (or maybe he's with me... whatever), but maybe it's because I'm much more familiar with Catholicism, Judaism and Agnosticism than I am with Atheists, the South or Protestants. So I've got questions:
1) Can you post a picture? I'd honestly like to see what these ornaments look like.
2) Hypothetically, had your neighbor put them up back in Week 1, would you still be looking at these as Christmas ornaments?
3) Presuming there's no religious iconography on or about the ornaments, what's precluding a perception that they're simply a display of Panther pride?
4) Is atheistic opposition to "Christmas Trees/Ornaments" made any more/less palatable by the fact that they're not actually a Christian tradition but rather an extension of Paganism?
5) If you were an Atheistic Bills fan, would this be offensive?
(http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/13-buffalo-bills-fans-bunny-masks-creepy-nfl-fans.jpg)
(Nice touch with the eye black)
Honestly, I would be pissed off if a neighbor did this to me, too. But I would be too upset about the invasion of my space/property that I wouldn't even get around to giving a rat's behind about the religious part.
regarding #4, as an atheist raising kids without religion in the house, we celebrate a secular christmas with trees decorated with ornaments/stockings/santas etc. (oddly enough we also have a Japanese Maple in our front yard that we do put ornaments on). We use it as an occasion to celebrate the love and family we've had throughout the year and build our traditions around that - easy to have a christmas without Christ.
I am with 82 in the fact that there are many examples of people pushing their religion on us - most are passive/not intentional but a lot are pretty overt.
regarding #5 - wait? easter is about more than a magical bunny?
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You don’t have neighbors in apts/condos?
Well, no yard or property issues rather. I would probably be a little more upset than 82 if someone came into my apartment to redecorate. Luckily haven't come across that issue yet.
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I am with 82 in the fact that there are many examples of people pushing their religion on us - most are passive/not intentional but a lot are pretty overt.
regarding #5 - wait? easter is about more than a magical bunny?
I absolutely agree with not pushing religion on someone, so here's a little gift from me to you (to be clear, this is not a Christmas gift, just a friendly, secular, non-denominational-who-the-f-cares-what-season-it-is internet gift)... it's called Matthew, chapter 6, verse 5.
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men."
Just play that puppy back next time someone wants to push the Jesus on you, and then sit back and watch their heads a'splode.
And re: the bunny... you've not heard of the Hare Club for Men?
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Well, at least it's not a burning cross.
That'll come later after you neglect to move away
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That'll come later after you neglect to move away
I shyte you not: When I was in HS, I dated the daughter of the Grand Imperial Wizard of the Connecticut KKK.
I knew he was a bigot, but didn't know he was a Klansman until a few years later. He used to introduce me as his "Jewish friend" and would say, "He's not a bad guy considerin' he's a bagel boy."
If he had known I was shtuppin' his daughter, I'm pretty sure there might have been a burning cross in my parents' yard!
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I shyte you not: When I was in HS, I dated the daughter of the Grand Imperial Wizard of the Connecticut KKK.
I knew he was a bigot, but didn't know he was a Klansman until a few years later. He used to introduce me as his "Jewish friend" and would say, "He's not a bad guy considerin' he's a bagel boy."
If he had known I was shtuppin' his daughter, I'm pretty sure there might have been a burning cross in my parents' yard!
Went for the girl with “Daddy Issues”, aina?
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I shyte you not: When I was in HS, I dated the daughter of the Grand Imperial Wizard of the Connecticut KKK.
I knew he was a bigot, but didn't know he was a Klansman until a few years later. He used to introduce me as his "Jewish friend" and would say, "He's not a bad guy considerin' he's a bagel boy."
If he had known I was shtuppin' his daughter, I'm pretty sure there might have been a burning cross in my parents' yard!
Hope ya used a raincoat. Might have been battery acid in dat cave, ai na?
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Tanks fore yoor cunsern!
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Wish I would have read this earlier... my first advice probably would have been to cut down the tree!
My best advice would have been to claim offense, not on the basis of religion, but on the basis of being a Green Bay Pakers fan!
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Hey, this is always an interesting discussion. It's easier here in an anonymous interwebs setting. It's much more difficult to have, face-to-face, with friends and family.
When we told my wife's side of the family (Catholics) years ago that we were going to raise our children without religion, most of them cut off any association with her. One day, they "loved" her; the next, they wanted nothing to do with her. They're a bunch of a-holes and racists - I'm not misusing either term; they use all kinds of slurs, with their favorite being "tacos" for Mexicans - but we're the immoral ones because we choose not to believe in God. It would be funny if not so sad. This could have harmed our marriage, but my very strong wife's reaction was, "Eff 'em then!"
There are some who believe one can't be moral and decent if one doesn't include God in their lives. We obviously feel differently. There are good and bad people who call themselves Christians, good and bad people who call themselves Jewish, good and bad people who call themselves Muslim, etc ... and good and bad people who call themselves atheists. I won't speak for myself, but I haven't met many people as kind, moral, ethical, decent and big-hearted as Mrs. 82.
Wow.
Religion almost always is a contentious issue, but this seems a little over the top. I feel for you and the difficulty of relationships with Mrs. MU82's parents. That's really sad.
The beauty of our country is you can be a druid if you want. Heck, the constitution even protects snake handling religions in the hills of Kentucky. We may think worshiping through snake handling is for the birds, but we continue to treat our peers with respect and we don't cut 'em off. That's because the framers of our constitution recognized that we're all equal and we're all in this together.
For those of us who believe, being a Christian means loving everybody, even if we don't share their views, beliefs and thoughts about the betterment of humanity. I believe Jesus once urged us, "love your neighbor as yourself."
Good luck and we do feel for you.
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Wow.
Religion almost always is a contentious issue, but this seems a little over the top. I feel for you and the difficulty of relationships with Mrs. MU82's parents. That's really sad.
The beauty of our country is you can be a druid if you want. Heck, the constitution even protects snake handling religions in the hills of Kentucky. We may think worshiping through snake handling is for the birds, but we continue to treat our peers with respect and we don't cut 'em off. That's because the framers of our constitution recognized that we're all equal and we're all in this together.
For those of us who believe, being a Christian means loving everybody, even if we don't share their views, beliefs and thoughts about the betterment of humanity. I believe Jesus once urged us, "love your neighbor as yourself."
Good luck and we do feel for you.
Very nice sentiments, dg. Honestly, I wasn't trying to get anybody to feel sorry for us. We have a GREAT life. If I ever write my memoirs, the word "lucky" will be in the title somewhere. Despite a little adversity (something pretty much everybody faces sometimes), I've been a very lucky guy!
It's actually my wife's extended family that are the a-holes. Her mom died before we had kids, and her dad, although distant, has been OK. She has a small family, so the few aunts, uncles and cousins are very close-knit. It was the "top cousin" who cast aside my wife, and many others followed. Their loss! For me, the bonus is that I don't have to go to any more of their racist family events - ha!
I find religion to be a fascinating topic but it of course it also can be a divisive one. I try not to "pick fights" with anybody, so that means tempering the conversation for the audience. One of my best friends became a born-again Christian, and he's now almost impossible to have a conversation with, and that's OK because I know it. We talk almost exclusively about sports now.
I remember that after ex-Twin Gary Gaetti became born-again, it changed the dynamic in the Twins clubhouse. Asked about the effect of Gaetti's new-found religion on their friendship, Kent Hrbek likened it to "a death in the family." That's harsh, but it was Hrbek expressing his honest feelings. They didn't suddenly hate each other, but the once-almost-brother bond was gone. It was nobody's "fault." It just happened.
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A healthy take. I generally try to live my faith, not evangelize it. I have had co workers over the years who tried to evangelize me, the Catholic, as I wasn't a true Christian and needed to be born again. It puts a strain on the relationship. I remember having a theological argument with a co worker, a CRC-Calvinist. Tempers were getting heated. I sent him completely around the bend when I said "What are you getting pissed at? According to your faith, we were pre-destined to have this bull**** argument. According to mine, I freely chose it." Bobber down. He didn't find that funny at all.
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A healthy take. I generally try to live my faith, not evangelize it. I have had co workers over the years who tried to evangelize me, the Catholic, as I wasn't a true Christian and needed to be born again. It puts a strain on the relationship. I remember having a theological argument with a co worker, a CRC-Calvinist. Tempers were getting heated. I sent him completely around the bend when I said "What are you getting pissed at? According to your faith, we were pre-destined to have this bull**** argument. According to mine, I freely chose it." Bobber down. He didn't find that funny at all.
I haven't been evangelized since that Spring Break shuttle back in 99, which didn't go too well for the thumpers (think Bartleby sitting in General Mitchell Airport... that was me), so I have to give it to the evangelicals, they know when to quit. Even the elders and witnesses skip my house now (evidently they do keep very good records).
Either that, or they've collectively decided they don't want me in their club.
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I'll flip this around, MM - again, with respect - because I also am curious.
Why are some Scoopers (perhaps even you) so adamant that my wife and I should be willing to leave Christmas decorations we didn't want in our tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of non-Christians choosing not to celebrate Christmas? Does the idea of atheism offend you in some great capacity?
Thanks for responding, MU82.
I personally wasn't adamant about keeping the decorations up. I thought that it would be a nice gesture to keep them up (especially since they were sports-themed) and then casually mention you were raised Jewish so ornaments are new to you/aren't your thing. It would show that you appreciate the gesture but it wasn't necessarily wanted. As an outsider, I viewed it as a neighbor attempting to be neighborly and not as a Christian attempting to push her beliefs on someone else.
As for me, I'm Catholic and I 100% believe in God. If someone doesn't want to believe in God, that's his or her prerogative. If someone thinks it's ridiculous to believe in God, that's his or her prerogative. I wouldn't try to push my beliefs onto someone of a different faith. Religion is a very personal thing.
There's a Jewish family at my kids' Catholic school. At drop-off on Tuesday, the mom wished me a Happy Hanukkah. She obviously knows that I don't celebrate Hanukkah but I didn't view that interaction as her attempting to push her beliefs on me. I think it was a simple pleasantry from someone who was excited to be celebrating an important holiday to her faith. In the same respect, I don't think that anyone wishing another person a Merry Christmas is doing anything other than saying "Have an enjoyable few weeks."
Yes, Christmas is by pure definition a Christian holiday, but I feel like Christmas and the "Christmas season" can be about whatever you want it to be about. In my family, we try to stress that it's about celebrating the birth of Jesus, but also that it's an opportunity to time spend with loved ones and to be reminded of how blessed we are and that we should be doing more to help the less fortunate, not only now but throughout the year. In other words, I don't think that Christmas HAS to be about religion.
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I remember having a theological argument with a co worker, a CRC-Calvinist. Tempers were getting heated. I sent him completely around the bend when I said "What are you getting pissed at? According to your faith, we were pre-destined to have this bull**** argument. According to mine, I freely chose it."
I love it!
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Thanks for responding, MU82.
I personally wasn't adamant about keeping the decorations up. I thought that it would be a nice gesture to keep them up (especially since they were sports-themed) and then casually mention you were raised Jewish so ornaments are new to you/aren't your thing. It would show that you appreciate the gesture but it wasn't necessarily wanted. As an outsider, I viewed it as a neighbor attempting to be neighborly and not as a Christian attempting to push her beliefs on someone else.
As for me, I'm Catholic and I 100% believe in God. If someone doesn't want to believe in God, that's his or her prerogative. If someone thinks it's ridiculous to believe in God, that's his or her prerogative. I wouldn't try to push my beliefs onto someone of a different faith. Religion is a very personal thing.
There's a Jewish family at my kids' Catholic school. At drop-off on Tuesday, the mom wished me a Happy Hanukkah. She obviously knows that I don't celebrate Hanukkah but I didn't view that interaction as her attempting to push her beliefs on me. I think it was a simple pleasantry from someone who was excited to be celebrating an important holiday to her faith. In the same respect, I don't think that anyone wishing another person a Merry Christmas is doing anything other than saying "Have an enjoyable few weeks."
Yes, Christmas is by pure definition a Christian holiday, but I feel like Christmas and the "Christmas season" can be about whatever you want it to be about. In my family, we try to stress that it's about celebrating the birth of Jesus, but also that it's an opportunity to time spend with loved ones and to be reminded of how blessed we are and that we should be doing more to help the less fortunate, not only now but throughout the year. In other words, I don't think that Christmas HAS to be about religion.
The word literally means the mass of Christ.
I’m a big proponent of it’s not pushing religion saying merry Christmas or happy Hanukkah but to say merry christmas can mean anything seems a bit much. If that were the case there’s no reason not to just say happy holidays.
Better yet we should all say merry winter solstice since that’s the whole reason Christmas (and the older pagan holidays) are when they are in the first place.
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Thanks for responding, MU82.
I personally wasn't adamant about keeping the decorations up. I thought that it would be a nice gesture to keep them up (especially since they were sports-themed) and then casually mention you were raised Jewish so ornaments are new to you/aren't your thing. It would show that you appreciate the gesture but it wasn't necessarily wanted. As an outsider, I viewed it as a neighbor attempting to be neighborly and not as a Christian attempting to push her beliefs on someone else.
As for me, I'm Catholic and I 100% believe in God. If someone doesn't want to believe in God, that's his or her prerogative. If someone thinks it's ridiculous to believe in God, that's his or her prerogative. I wouldn't try to push my beliefs onto someone of a different faith. Religion is a very personal thing.
There's a Jewish family at my kids' Catholic school. At drop-off on Tuesday, the mom wished me a Happy Hanukkah. She obviously knows that I don't celebrate Hanukkah but I didn't view that interaction as her attempting to push her beliefs on me. I think it was a simple pleasantry from someone who was excited to be celebrating an important holiday to her faith. In the same respect, I don't think that anyone wishing another person a Merry Christmas is doing anything other than saying "Have an enjoyable few weeks."
Yes, Christmas is by pure definition a Christian holiday, but I feel like Christmas and the "Christmas season" can be about whatever you want it to be about. In my family, we try to stress that it's about celebrating the birth of Jesus, but also that it's an opportunity to time spend with loved ones and to be reminded of how blessed we are and that we should be doing more to help the less fortunate, not only now but throughout the year. In other words, I don't think that Christmas HAS to be about religion.
Thanks for the post, MM.
I understand your reasoning. I just disagreed with it because, simply, we don't want Christmas ornaments in our tree. I doubt our neighbors had an "agenda." I do think they were being nice.
I do not try to push my atheism on anybody. I rarely even mention it. If somebody asks me, or if we get a discussion going, I'll talk about it.
There are 325 million people in America and the person you mentioned who said Happy Hanukkah to non-Jews is probably one of less than a dozen people who does that. I have joked about saying it as a response to those who wish me a Merry Christmas but I've decided it's not worth the time or potential confrontation.
I wonder if your Jewish lady is being something other than merely "pleasant." Seems passive-aggressive to me to wish Happy Hanukkah to somebody you KNOW isn't Jewish. Hanukkah is a relatively unimportant Jewish holiday, anyway ... but most American Jews feel they have to compete with the Christians in the gift-giving realm.
Folks who say Merry Christmas ... I'm immune to it. It's white noise to me. "Thanks, same to you." They might as well be saying, "Enjoy this stalk of celery." I realize the default assumption in America is that everybody celebrates Christmas. I try not to take silly stuff like that personally.
If I were a serious Catholic or any other kind of Christian, I'd be bummed that Christmas has been hijacked by corporations, the media and political d-bags. Fox News (and its favorite viewer's) constant whining about "the war on Christmas" is embarrassing. But I'm not Christian, serious or otherwise, so I'm mostly bemused by it. From this outsider's perspective, Christmas seems to have very, very little to do with Jesus Christ. I mean, Jesus doesn't care if you get a new iPhone or beer-of-the-month club membership. It's a consumer orgasmatron.
I also get a kick out of people who never even consider helping those less fortunate the other 11 months of the year suddenly feeling generous in December. It's nice that they're generous at all, I get that, but there are homeless people in February, impoverished families in May and needy orphans in September, too.