2014-15 NFC North/NFL Thread

[FartyEightHours]

Ron Wolf for President

[wadesworld]

I would expect stupid comments from MUArmy, you at least make a reasonable argument.

There’s plenty of blame to go around here, but McCarthy didn’t lose them this game. Running the ball with 5 minutes to go was the correct call. Had they passed, and it stopped the clock or they got an interception everyone would have grilled  McCarthy for that.  Players need to make plays.  If they make 1 or 2 plays in that last 5 minutes, the Packers win going away and everyone is talking about what a hell of job McCarthy did winning on the road as an underdog.

The Packers will be back. They are a young ascending team and have cap space. It’s tough to get that far though, everything has to go right.

To be honest, the Packers would've won IN SPITE of Mike McCarthy.  What did his offense do?  They used the defense's 5 created turnovers and turned them into 6 points.  They were set up with great field position all game and couldn't stick the ball in the end zone with multiple great opportunities.  McCarthy did not call a good game at all, yet the Packers were still on the cusp of going to the Super Bowl.  You are right, there were about 20 things the Packers had to do to screw that game up...and unfortunately they did.  Mike McCarthy was not the reason they were in the position to win that game though.

[RushmoreAcademy]

Me neither. I usually can let these things go after a short amount of time, but this one has really stuck with me.

SF in '98, 4th and 26, NYG in '08. All were really tough, but this was the worst. The only one I can think of that comes close is MU-Stanford.

MU-Stanford was one of the toughest for me.... for sure my toughest MU game, without a doubt.
Being a Chicago fan, obviously 2003 was the biggest sports disappoint.... also being a Chicago fan, yesterday was not a disappointment at all.  I did feel a little sympathy for all my Packer fan friends though. Tiny bit.

[wadesworld]

By the way, my biggest pet peeve with the Packers offense is on their 3rd (and 4th) and a yard situations.  They either go empty backfield (okay, they're not running the ball) or they bring in an extra lineman with 2 tight ends and Kuhn (okay, they're only running the ball).  Why not at least make the defense consider both options?  Split Cobb and Jordy out wide, have 2 tight ends in the game, and have Lacy in the backfield.  Give Rodgers an option to see the defense and check into a quick slant or run the ball.  I would prefer in those situations to take 3 defenders off of the line with the threat of the pass and then give it to Lacy.  Having 11 defenders key on the run isn't going to be overly successful.

[MerrittsMustache]

To be honest, the Packers would've won IN SPITE of Mike McCarthy.  What did his offense do?  They used the defense's 5 created turnovers and turned them into 6 points.  They were set up with great field position all game and couldn't stick the ball in the end zone with multiple great opportunities.  McCarthy did not call a good game at all, yet the Packers were still on the cusp of going to the Super Bowl.  You are right, there were about 20 things the Packers had to do to screw that game up...and unfortunately they did.  Mike McCarthy was not the reason they were in the position to win that game though.

So it's McCathy's offense when they play poorly but Rodgers' offense when they play well?

[wadesworld]

So it's McCathy's offense when they play poorly but Rodgers' offense when they play well?

Who said that?

[MerrittsMustache]

Who said that?

No one said it specifically, but I inferred it from your comments. I guess I'm just curious why you blame McCarthy but fail to even mention that Rodgers put up a dud of a game.

[wadesworld]

No one said it specifically, but I inferred it from your comments. I guess I'm just curious why you blame McCarthy but fail to even mention that Rodgers put up a dud of a game.

Okay.  Rodgers wasn't himself.  He missed Jordy in the end zone and threw high on Cobb.  He also threw a ball he shouldn't have to Cobb, who ran a different rout than Rodgers expected, and he hesitated just enough to let Sherman make a great play on the ball in the first quarter.  He certainly wasn't great.  But he also certainly wasn't the reason we didn't win the game.  1st and goal at the 9, run Lacy to the 1.  2nd and goal at the 1, run Kuhn for nothing.  3rd and goal at the 1, run Lacy for nothing.  That's not on Rodgers.  1st 10 late in the game up 12, run Lacy for -2, 2nd and 12 run Lacy for -3.  3rd and 15 (at this point, you run the ball...you're simply not picking up the first down there, so keep the clock ticking and force them to use timeouts), incomplete pass, clock stops.  Again, we aren't picking up 15 there, so hard to put that on Rodgers.  1st and 10 even later up 12, run, 2nd and 8, run, 3rd and 6, split Quarless out wide, Rodgers puts it on his numbers, it gets broken up.  I'm not going to fault Rodgers for that, not sure what Quarless is doing out there.

Rodgers played sub par for himself.  We were also facing a defense that is one of the best ever assembled, so I wouldn't expect 400 yards and 4 TDs.  What I would expect is for our coach to not take the air out of the ball for the last 25 minutes of the game offensively.  When you're up 16 points in the 3rd quarter the game is not over, and McCarthy coached the game like we simply had to run the clock out.  He stopped coaching to win and coached not to lose.  Heck, the most knowledgeable football person on Scoop is a Bears fan and even he said it was painful to watch McCarthy's playcalling.

It's certainly not all on McCarthy.  But he definitely didn't help the cause.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

We were also facing a defense that is one of the best ever assembled, so I wouldn't expect 400 yards and 4 TDs.  What I would expect is for our coach to not take the air out of the ball for the last 25 minutes of the game offensively.

Point #1 has something to do with point #2.

While I agree, McCarthy wasn't exactly calling a bunch of exotic plays, Seattle also was able to lock them down. They are good at football, and they are at home.

And, for as bad as the first half was for Seattle, Seattle's defense did a relatively good job given the position they were in. It's not like they were giving up 90 yard drives.

[MerrittsMustache]

Okay.  Rodgers wasn't himself.  He missed Jordy in the end zone and threw high on Cobb.  He also threw a ball he shouldn't have to Cobb, who ran a different rout than Rodgers expected, and he hesitated just enough to let Sherman make a great play on the ball in the first quarter.  He certainly wasn't great.  But he also certainly wasn't the reason we didn't win the game.  1st and goal at the 9, run Lacy to the 1.  2nd and goal at the 1, run Kuhn for nothing.  3rd and goal at the 1, run Lacy for nothing.  That's not on Rodgers.  1st 10 late in the game up 12, run Lacy for -2, 2nd and 12 run Lacy for -3.  3rd and 15 (at this point, you run the ball...you're simply not picking up the first down there, so keep the clock ticking and force them to use timeouts), incomplete pass, clock stops.  Again, we aren't picking up 15 there, so hard to put that on Rodgers.  1st and 10 even later up 12, run, 2nd and 8, run, 3rd and 6, split Quarless out wide, Rodgers puts it on his numbers, it gets broken up.  I'm not going to fault Rodgers for that, not sure what Quarless is doing out there.

Rodgers played sub par for himself.  We were also facing a defense that is one of the best ever assembled, so I wouldn't expect 400 yards and 4 TDs.  What I would expect is for our coach to not take the air out of the ball for the last 25 minutes of the game offensively.  When you're up 16 points in the 3rd quarter the game is not over, and McCarthy coached the game like we simply had to run the clock out.  He stopped coaching to win and coached not to lose.  Heck, the most knowledgeable football person on Scoop is a Bears fan and even he said it was painful to watch McCarthy's playcalling.

It's certainly not all on McCarthy.  But he definitely didn't help the cause.

The psychology of sports fans fascinates me. We can spin situations to fit what we want to believe. Not singling you out. I'm guilty of it too. That said...

Rodgers "hesitated just enough to let Sherman make a great play on the ball in the first quarter" or was it that the pass was simply late and underthrown?

"Rodgers played sub par for himself" or did he simply play poorly, especially in a conference championship game?

"at this point, you run the ball......so keep the clock ticking and force them to use timeouts), incomplete pass, clock stops" or did Rodgers force a pass to a well-covered receiver which stopped the clock? Also, you had that switched around - GB ran the ball on 3rd and 16 but threw it to Quarless on 3rd and 4.

"We were also facing a defense that is one of the best ever assembled, so I wouldn't expect 400 yards and 4 TDs." But wouldn't you expect better than 178 yards, 1 TD, 2 picks and a mere 6 points off of 5 TOs?

Interesting Stat of the Game: Rodgers' QB Rating of 55.8 was the exact same QB Rating that Jay Cutler had against NO...just before being benched.

(Not comparing Cutler to Rodgers or even saying QB Rating is a solid stat for comparison, etc, etc. Just found that interesting.)

[wadesworld]

The psychology of sports fans fascinates me. We can spin situations to fit what we want to believe. Not singling you out. I'm guilty of it too. That said...

Rodgers "hesitated just enough to let Sherman make a great play on the ball in the first quarter" or was it that the pass was simply late and underthrown?

"Rodgers played sub par for himself" or did he simply play poorly, especially in a conference championship game?

"at this point, you run the ball......so keep the clock ticking and force them to use timeouts), incomplete pass, clock stops" or did Rodgers force a pass to a well-covered receiver which stopped the clock? Also, you had that switched around - GB ran the ball on 3rd and 16 but threw it to Quarless on 3rd and 4.

"We were also facing a defense that is one of the best ever assembled, so I wouldn't expect 400 yards and 4 TDs." But wouldn't you expect better than 178 yards, 1 TD, 2 picks and a mere 6 points off of 5 TOs?

Interesting Stat of the Game: Rodgers' QB Rating of 55.8 was the exact same QB Rating that Jay Cutler had against NO...just before being benched.

(Not comparing Cutler to Rodgers or even saying QB Rating is a solid stat for comparison, etc, etc. Just found that interesting.)

By "hesitating just enough," I meant exactly what you said, it was thrown too late and it allowed Sherman to make a great play.  I didn't think Rodgers played awful, but he obviously didn't take the game over either.  He missed some throws he typically makes.  I would've expected a better performance from him, and I would've expected McCarthy to call a better game.  Maybe if Rodgers comes out hot McCarthy calls it differently.  Maybe if McCarthy calls it differently Rodgers gets hot.  Who knows?  Rodgers did not go out and win us the game like he is capable, but I did not feel as though Rodgers was someone who greatly contributed to the loss, while I thought McCarthy's playcalling and tentative playcalling for the last 25 minutes of the game greatly contributed to the loss.

And by the way, you're comparing a QB rating of a terrible defense (Saints) to what some people are trying to argue is the best defense ever assembled (I don't buy that, but I do think they deserve much of the praise they get, they are as good of a defense as I can remember since at least the Ravens of the early-mid 2000s).

Fact of the matter is the Packers had to royally screw up about 10-15 things over the last 8 minutes of the game to lose it, and they did.  There is a lot of blame to go around, and not 1 person/play lost the game for the Packers.  The Packers (offense, defense, special teams) put it into cruise control way too early and paid big time for it.  They had a chance to grab this decade and put its mark on it, but instead it was one of the biggest choke jobs I can ever think of.

[brandx]

Hey, good try guys.

Next year you probably won't need to worry about losing in the playoffs.

SKOL VIKINGS!

The Queens may actually be less irrelevant than the Bears next year.

[GooooMarquette]

Hey, good try guys.

Next year you probably won't need to worry about losing in the playoffs.

SKOL VIKINGS!

I live in MN so I hear that every year.  Pretty amusing.

[DegenerateDish]

I don't know if we'll ever know this, but one thing I'm curious about is if someone radio'd into Rodgers that Sherman was down to one arm late in the game.

One play I would like to have seen them try (given this injury info) was some type of jet sweep with Cobb, right at Sherman's side. Get Nelson isolated on Sherman, force him to use both arms to get out of the block and come up and try to make a tackle. I don't believe Sherman was really forced to do too much of anything after he got injured. The Packer late FG drive, I believe all those pass plays were either up the middle or semi quick outs to the left side of the field (away from Sherman).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't know if we'll ever know this, but one thing I'm curious about is if someone radio'd into Rodgers that Sherman was down to one arm late in the game.

One play I would like to have seen them try (given this injury info) was some type of jet sweep with Cobb, right at Sherman's side. Get Nelson isolated on Sherman, force him to use both arms to get out of the block and come up and try to make a tackle. I don't believe Sherman was really forced to do too much of anything after he got injured. The Packer late FG drive, I believe all those pass plays were either up the middle or semi quick outs to the left side of the field (away from Sherman).

That's a good idea. I don't know if throwing at Sherman was the answer because he likely could have still enured the pain of reaching or defending a pass. (adrenaline + a quick reaction/reach)

But, taking on a blocker, shedding a block, and then tackling probably would have been difficult. The one tackle he did make, he came up grabbing at his arm again, so it likely caused him a lot of pain.

[wadesworld]

That's a good idea. I don't know if throwing at Sherman was the answer because he likely could have still enured the pain of reaching or defending a pass. (adrenaline + a quick reaction/reach)

But, taking on a blocker, shedding a block, and then tackling probably would have been difficult. The one tackle he did make, he came up grabbing at his arm again, so it likely caused him a lot of pain.

My question is if he can get beat.  I didn't really get a chance to see, but the way he was lining up with his hand pulled tight to his chest it looked like he was avoiding moving it at all.  If that's the case and he wasn't using 1 of his arms to swing in order to run, that significantly slows him down.  Plus he can't really effectively press a receiver with one hand.

By the way, Sherman playing through that and Earl Thomas playing through whatever should injury he had is exactly what allowed the Seahawks to make that comeback (or more accurately, is why the Packers choked that game away).  Sherman is literally playing with one arm and Thomas is playing with what looked like a pretty painful shoulder injury, and when the game is on the line there's Lacy and Matthews on the sidelines with what I would assume are a bruised knee and a tight hammy, respectively.  No killer instinct.

[shiloh26]

I don't know if we'll ever know this, but one thing I'm curious about is if someone radio'd into Rodgers that Sherman was down to one arm late in the game.

One play I would like to have seen them try (given this injury info) was some type of jet sweep with Cobb, right at Sherman's side. Get Nelson isolated on Sherman, force him to use both arms to get out of the block and come up and try to make a tackle. I don't believe Sherman was really forced to do too much of anything after he got injured. The Packer late FG drive, I believe all those pass plays were either up the middle or semi quick outs to the left side of the field (away from Sherman).

In retrospect, on that 2nd and 14 after the Burnett pick, where the Seahawks, the stadium and everyone watching expected run, it would've been interesting to see an inside slant on Sherman, who would not have been able to knock the receiver off his route.  But in the vast universe of shoulda-coulda-woulda's in that game, it rates fairly low.  

[Benny B]

My thoughts:

1) I really hate to blame one guy for a team loss when everyone is out there doing their job and giving it their all; however, I have no qualms calling out the guy who abandoned his job, even if to give it his all.  If Bostwick comes down with the ball cleanly, I still would have deactivated him for the next game just to drive home the point - as Wayne Larrivee said this morning - "you do your job and trust that your teammates around you will do theirs".  The loss isn't on Bostwick alone... you can win playing on the razor's edge so long as no one screws up, or you can win after screwing up so long as you're not playing on the razor's edge.  But it's damn near impossible to win doing both.

2) Unless you have the top 3 DLs in the NFL, don't ever rush three guys... I don't care if it's third and goal from your opponent's 1-yard line.  20 years ago, sure.  But QBs and WRs are elite enough these days that even if you could drop all 11 guys back into deep coverage against 5 receivers, given enough time, they will still complete a pass.  You need to put pressure on the QB, otherwise, a receiver is eventually going to find a seam and the QB is going to put it right on the money.

3) Do I really have to say #2, especially in the place where you got royally burned just a few short years ago on a hail mary pass (guess how many rushed Wilson on that play).

4) I don't fault Burnett for going down after the INT, and I don't think it would be fair for anyone else to either.  He did his job and trusted his teammates to do their job; it just so happened to be the case that one of his teammates dropped the ball (literally).

5) http://www.amfam.com/dreams/ -- Glad to see the dream is living on for most Packer fans, even if they don't even realize it.   Instead of donating a few million to a charity or reducing their rates, good ol' Madison-HQ'd American Family Insurance decided to pay the opposing QB to the Packers in the NFC Championship a few million dollars because they knew some suckers would buy their product if they did (or wouldn't care enough to cancel it).  I'm taking great pleasure asking all of my die-hard Packer fan family members (who have American Family) how much money they put in Russell Wilson's pockets last year.  I encourage my fellow Packer fans to do the same... it will help lift the sorrows.

[DegenerateDish]

I guess my larger point is this...

These are billion dollar business organizations, producing wins/losses in environments where information on the fly is vital. I believe the current coaching structure and in-game communication is way outdated.

I'd argue a head coach is way better off sitting in the press box than on the sideline. NFL sidelines are chaotic, can't see much, too many people around. A head coach should prepare his team as best as possible during a week, develop a game plan with his coordinators, and then on game day, a head coach should be using information quickly to make decisions. Boggles my mind week in and week out how awful certain decisions or lack there of happen each and every week by the same coaches over and over.

[MU B2002]

Yes.  Here is what I don't understand about the fake FG.  The Packer's clearly went for the block, which IMO is nonsensical considering that Carroll likes rolling the dice and that it was a relatively short FG.  Furthermore holding them to a FG at that point is a defensive "win" IMO.  They still would have a 13 point lead.  The smart thing would have been to play it safe there.

They didn't go for the block... Seahwaks had a plan for Brad Jones.


http://deadspin.com/this-is-how-close-the-seahawks-came-to-never-even-start-1680433146?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[jesmu84]

They didn't go for the block... Seahwaks had a plan for Brad Jones.


http://deadspin.com/this-is-how-close-the-seahawks-came-to-never-even-start-1680433146?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

That is incredible

[shiloh26]

They didn't go for the block... Seahwaks had a plan for Brad Jones.


http://deadspin.com/this-is-how-close-the-seahawks-came-to-never-even-start-1680433146?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

HA! HAHA! Maniacal laughter! The one time AJ Hawk and Brad Jones share the field is on FG coverage, and they combine to totally ruin everything (Hawk should've still followed that receiver). Poetic.

[wadesworld]

I think we all know I'm not the biggest McCarthy fan in the world, although I like to think I give him credit when it's due.  Here's what I will say, based on yesterday's game.  From the head coach on down to special teams play, this Packers team has been way too soft for way too long. As much as I despise Pete Carroll, he coaches every game and every moment of every game to win the game. He does not lay off the gas pedal or run and hide from a team that might have a good player on the other side of the ball. And, most importantly, he motivates his players and gets the absolute most out of them every game. By far the biggest difference between the Seahawks and the Packers is that while guys like Clay Matthews and Eddie Lacy are on the sidelines when the game is on the line because of (I would assume) a tight hammy and a bruised knee, respectively, guys like Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas are playing through things like a broken arm and a separated shoulder. Heck, even the Seahawks to can't stand Carroll (see: Lynch, Marshawn - won't say a word to him) plays like his hair is on fire TO SPITE of Pete Carroll. If that's what it takes to motivate your players, then I hope Mike McCarthy is able to find a way to make them hate him.  Can McCarthy force Lacy and Matthews to go out there despite possibly having some dings?  No, but does anybody really think that if they played for Pete Carroll all year long that there would be any question as to whether they were finishing that game out, even if it meant shredding the hammy or tearing an ACL?

IF, obviously barring a significant injury to a major contributor, the Packers do not WIN a Super Bowl next year, I do not want Mike McCarthy on the sidelines for the Packers in 2016. IF he cannot motivate his team and get them to play with a chip on their shoulder for the first time since 2010 after a Playoff loss like the one we just had, he will never get a team motivated to play at the highest level. I want 1 of 2 things in a coach, and preferably both. I want a coach who gets his team playing as hard as they can every time they step onto the field, whether they're down 59-0 or up 59-0 or somewhere in between (had to get at least a little bit of humor in there with the score...O-H-I-O). Someone like Pete Carroll who is going to have his team fighting even when they SHOULDN'T have a chance to win the game. And I want a coach who will NOT play scared and will NOT steer away from what has given you success in your time in Green Bay. While McCarthy decided to take the air out of the ball up by 12 points with 25 minutes left to go, a guy like Bill Belichick is saying, "I'm up 35-7 in the rain and I'm going to throw the ball all over the dang field and run the score up on you, I don't care who is on the other side of the ball." Could it come back and bight you in the ass at some point? Certainly. You could be up 12 with 25 minutes left and throw a pick 6. But I'll take my chances playing to win over not playing to lose every day of the week. I want a coach who coaches to win, not one who coaches to hope the clock strikes 0:00 before the other team can catch up.

In years past, McCarthy has done the most with what he's had.  There have been some major holes in these Packer teams, and even through the first half of this season there were major holes.  AWFUL defenses at times, no running game at times, poor/injured offensive line at times, and even an injured Rodgers and we have consistently won and made the Playoffs.  But this loss is not acceptable.  And I know this post looks like I'm putting it 100% on McCarthy and it simply isn't that way, but again, if he cannot motivate his team next year to play balls to the wall after this happened, I do not have faith that he ever will.

[GGGG]

McCarthy just signed an extension.  He isn't going anywhere.

[jesmu84]

Interesting question I heard today...

If Rodgers doesn't win another Super Bowl, how does he compare to Manning, Brady, Brees? (the other great QBs of his era)