Todd Mayo is no longer with Marquette!

[Silkk the Shaka]

The best player on our second most successful team (Big East title, Elite 8) in the last 38 years was a bust? Really? You're embarrassing yourself.

Haha yep, anyone still clinging to the "Blue as a bust" party line at this point makes me cringe. Even ErickJD08 gave up on beating that drum after Blue's junior year.

[GGGG]

Look, as to Blue leaving early, he was a bust at Marquette, like it or not. He had two really weak years compared to his talent his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year was good but he left early apparently despite a strong urging not to by the Hillbilly. The fact that Blue did not trust the Hillbilly's judgment when he made his decision on going pro speaks volumes. Even though the Hillbilly was right about Blue!

Vander Blue was not a bust at Marquette.  Your expectations way exceeded his abilities.  Don't worry, you weren't alone in making that mistake.

Blue was RSCI #48 in the country in 2010.  Here is a list of the ten ranked higher than him....and the ten ranked behind:

38. Dwight Powell (Forward, Stanford...slightly better stats...2nd round pick this year)
39. Tyler Lamb (Guard, UCLA...started well, transferred to Long Beach midway though junior year where he had 21 ppg)
40. Jordan McRae (Guard, Tennessee...didn't play much as freshman but became 18 ppg scorer..2nd round pick)
41. Phil Pressey (Guard, Missouri....more of a PG...declared for 2013 draft and went undrafted)
42. Nate Lubik (Georgetown...decent role player)
43. Okaro White (Florida State...decent player with stats just under Vander's)
44. Dominique Ferguson (Two years at FIU....playing in England after declaring for 2012 draft)
45. Luke Cothron (Committed to Auburn, transferred all over the place...no idea what he is doing now)
46. Jayvaughn Pinkston (Villanova.  Suspended his freshman year.  Solid player for Nova)
47. KT Harrell  (Started at UVA, transferred to Auburn where he had 18 ppg year last year.  One year left.)
48. Vander Blue (Marquette)
49. Travis McKie  (Started every game in four years at Wake.  Decent stats on a terrible team)
50. Stacey Poole (One year at Kentucky, transferred to Georgia Tech.  Not much to show for it.)
51. JT Terrell (One year at Wake, transferred to USC.  9 ppg scorer last year)
52. Casey Prather (Florida.  Good player with nearly 20 ppg his senior year)
53. Keala King (Two years at Arizona State.  Transferred to Long Beach State.  10 ppg last year)
54. Anthony Brown  (Stanford.  Solid role player)
55. Mychal Parker (Two poor years at Maryland.  Ended career in NAIA.)
56. Lorenzo Brown (NC State.  Declared for 2013 draft, went undrafted, and spent most of year in D-League)
57. Gary Franklin (Baylor.  Role player.)
58. James Johnson (Started at Virginia.  Transferred to SDSU.  Bit player.)

I'm not going to debate who is better than Blue on this list, and who is worse.  But there is a couple of things that are clear.  There is not a single super-star player on here.  There isn't even a likely first round pick worthy player. (Maybe Pinkston with a good year).  There are a couple 2nd round picks.  Some good D-League players.  Pretty much what Vander is.

And there are some busts here (Ferguson, Cothron, Parker).  Vander certainly isn't one of them.

So again, calling Vander a bust is completely false.

[bilsu]

All these posts seem to indicate that Blue and Mayo were in the same recruiting class, which is not true. Smith and Blue were in the same class. Mayo was a year later.

[dgies9156]

I disagree with the entire post.

You are entitled!

I don't downplay his last year with us. He had a couple of great  games, including some when the money was on the line. But my perception is on his whole body of work and the fact that he was a flash in the pan.

Maybe I did expect too much out of him. I'm sure I did with Mayo. They are college kids, after all, and I sometimes forget that. I think we all do from time to time. But for some reason, other than an all-too-brief shining moment, expectations and reality did not match.

[bilsu]

38. Dwight Powell (Forward, Stanford...slightly better stats...2nd round pick this year)
39. Tyler Lamb (Guard, UCLA...started well, transferred to Long Beach midway though junior year where he had 21 ppg)
40. Jordan McRae (Guard, Tennessee...didn't play much as freshman but became 18 ppg scorer..2nd round pick)
41. Phil Pressey (Guard, Missouri....more of a PG...declared for 2013 draft and went undrafted)
42. Nate Lubik (Georgetown...decent role player)
43. Okaro White (Florida State...decent player with stats just under Vander's)
44. Dominique Ferguson (Two years at FIU....playing in England after declaring for 2012 draft)
45. Luke Cothron (Committed to Auburn, transferred all over the place...no idea what he is doing now)
46. Jayvaughn Pinkston (Villanova.  Suspended his freshman year.  Solid player for Nova)
47. KT Harrell  (Started at UVA, transferred to Auburn where he had 18 ppg year last year.  One year left.)
48. Vander Blue (Marquette)
49. Travis McKie  (Started every game in four years at Wake.  Decent stats on a terrible team)
50. Stacey Poole (One year at Kentucky, transferred to Georgia Tech.  Not much to show for it.)
51. JT Terrell (One year at Wake, transferred to USC.  9 ppg scorer last year)
52. Casey Prather (Florida.  Good player with nearly 20 ppg his senior year)
53. Keala King (Two years at Arizona State.  Transferred to Long Beach State.  10 ppg last year)
54. Anthony Brown  (Stanford.  Solid role player)
55. Mychal Parker (Two poor years at Maryland.  Ended career in NAIA.)
56. Lorenzo Brown (NC State.  Declared for 2013 draft, went undrafted, and spent most of year in D-League)
57. Gary Franklin (Baylor.  Role player.)
58. James Johnson (Started at Virginia.  Transferred to SDSU.  Bit player.)

I am not going to try to identify them, but I bet there was at least 21 better players than this group that were ranked worse than 58. So much for the value of ranking recruits.

[/quote]

[MU82]

Vander Blue was not a bust at Marquette.  Your expectations way exceeded his abilities.  Don't worry, you weren't alone in making that mistake.

Blue was RSCI #48 in the country in 2010.  Here is a list of the ten ranked higher than him....and the ten ranked behind:

38. Dwight Powell (Forward, Stanford...slightly better stats...2nd round pick this year)
39. Tyler Lamb (Guard, UCLA...started well, transferred to Long Beach midway though junior year where he had 21 ppg)
40. Jordan McRae (Guard, Tennessee...didn't play much as freshman but became 18 ppg scorer..2nd round pick)
41. Phil Pressey (Guard, Missouri....more of a PG...declared for 2013 draft and went undrafted)
42. Nate Lubik (Georgetown...decent role player)
43. Okaro White (Florida State...decent player with stats just under Vander's)
44. Dominique Ferguson (Two years at FIU....playing in England after declaring for 2012 draft)
45. Luke Cothron (Committed to Auburn, transferred all over the place...no idea what he is doing now)
46. Jayvaughn Pinkston (Villanova.  Suspended his freshman year.  Solid player for Nova)
47. KT Harrell  (Started at UVA, transferred to Auburn where he had 18 ppg year last year.  One year left.)
48. Vander Blue (Marquette)
49. Travis McKie  (Started every game in four years at Wake.  Decent stats on a terrible team)
50. Stacey Poole (One year at Kentucky, transferred to Georgia Tech.  Not much to show for it.)
51. JT Terrell (One year at Wake, transferred to USC.  9 ppg scorer last year)
52. Casey Prather (Florida.  Good player with nearly 20 ppg his senior year)
53. Keala King (Two years at Arizona State.  Transferred to Long Beach State.  10 ppg last year)
54. Anthony Brown  (Stanford.  Solid role player)
55. Mychal Parker (Two poor years at Maryland.  Ended career in NAIA.)
56. Lorenzo Brown (NC State.  Declared for 2013 draft, went undrafted, and spent most of year in D-League)
57. Gary Franklin (Baylor.  Role player.)
58. James Johnson (Started at Virginia.  Transferred to SDSU.  Bit player.)

I'm not going to debate who is better than Blue on this list, and who is worse.  But there is a couple of things that are clear.  There is not a single super-star player on here.  There isn't even a likely first round pick worthy player. (Maybe Pinkston with a good year).  There are a couple 2nd round picks.  Some good D-League players.  Pretty much what Vander is.

And there are some busts here (Ferguson, Cothron, Parker).  Vander certainly isn't one of them.

So again, calling Vander a bust is completely false.

Outstanding work here, Sultan. Can't argue with a single word. Lots of facts and sound opinions based on the facts.

I hope Wojo is able to recruit a bust or two like Vander every year!

[4everwarriors]

Yeah, recruitin' a bust like this would be great, hey?

[GGGG]

I am not going to try to identify them, but I bet there was at least 21 better players than this group that were ranked worse than 58. So much for the value of ranking recruits.

Sure, and I am sure there are a bunch above that are worse.

But the point is that whenever you use a term like "bust" it is relative to expectations coming in.  And expectations coming in have to be closely tied to recruiting ranking.

[GGGG]

You are entitled!

I don't downplay his last year with us. He had a couple of great  games, including some when the money was on the line. But my perception is on his whole body of work and the fact that he was a flash in the pan.

He was a good, solid player for three years.  It took him awhile to be an effective scorer, but he played 19, 25 and 33 mpg in his three years because he played incredibly good defense and rebounded well for his position.  In his last year, he was the teams leading scorer and arguably MU's best player.

I'm not sure what you expected of him, but he wasn't a "bust" nor was he a "flash in the pan."

[dgies9156]

He was a good, solid player for three years.  It took him awhile to be an effective scorer, but he played 19, 25 and 33 mpg in his three years because he played incredibly good defense and rebounded well for his position.  In his last year, he was the teams leading scorer and arguably MU's best player.

I'm not sure what you expected of him, but he wasn't a "bust" nor was he a "flash in the pan."

I am impressed with the recruiting research and how everyone turned the data out. But given the hype at the time, I expected a lot more out of Blue than we received. Not withstanding the statistical data, I am disappointed in the outcome.

Mayo is another ball game altogether. Maybe I expected OJ instead of Todd! Regardless, we never got what we thought we should have.

Bottom line -- one year good, one year mediocre and one freshman year for Vander and full disappointment for Todd. I suppose my attitude would be different if Vander followed his junior year with a more impressive senior year. But that never happened. Something did not gel between Vander and the Hillbilly and, as my first "incorrect" post pointed out, I do hold the coach responsible. I respectfully think the Hillbilly should have obtained more out of Vander and Todd, just as I think the Hillbilly should have obtained more from Jamil and Jujuan last year.

[Lennys Tap]

He was a good, solid player for three years.  It took him awhile to be an effective scorer, but he played 19, 25 and 33 mpg in his three years because he played incredibly good defense and rebounded well for his position.  In his last year, he was the teams leading scorer and arguably MU's best player.

I'm not sure what you expected of him, but he wasn't a "bust" nor was he a "flash in the pan."

Only disagreement is the word "arguably". I'd say without a doubt.

[augoman]

Yeah, recruitin' a bust like this would be great, hey?

while she is lovely, 4ever, I prefer the natural breasticles.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

He was a good, solid player for three years.  It took him awhile to be an effective scorer, but he played 19, 25 and 33 mpg in his three years because he played incredibly good defense and rebounded well for his position.  In his last year, he was the teams leading scorer and arguably MU's best player.

I'm not sure what you expected of him, but he wasn't a "bust" nor was he a "flash in the pan."

He wasn't a bust and he wasn't a "good, solid player for three years." He was awful as a freshman, marginally better as a sophomore and had flashes his junior year. I'd say his heroics vs. st,John's, Davidson and Butler (justifiably?) covered up for what was also a very inconsistent, if not downright mediocre, junior year.

I will give him credit for this, his improvement between sophomore and junior year HAD to be the result of some very hard work.

[GGGG]

I am impressed with the recruiting research and how everyone turned the data out. But given the hype at the time, I expected a lot more out of Blue than we received. Not withstanding the statistical data, I am disappointed in the outcome.

Mayo is another ball game altogether. Maybe I expected OJ instead of Todd! Regardless, we never got what we thought we should have.

Bottom line -- one year good, one year mediocre and one freshman year for Vander and full disappointment for Todd. I suppose my attitude would be different if Vander followed his junior year with a more impressive senior year. But that never happened. Something did not gel between Vander and the Hillbilly and, as my first "incorrect" post pointed out, I do hold the coach responsible. I respectfully think the Hillbilly should have obtained more out of Vander and Todd, just as I think the Hillbilly should have obtained more from Jamil and Jujuan last year.

So you blame Buzz for not getting Vander's production to match your misplaced "hype?"  

As for Mayo, that's all on him.  He clearly had the potential to produce better than a non-rated, three star guard, and oftentimes matched that potential.  But Buzz can't make people go to class.  Buzz can't make people show up on time for practice.  Buzz can't make someone a better teammate.  

Really Buzz can be blamed for a number of things, but you are grasping at straws here.

[Lennys Tap]

He wasn't a bust and he wasn't a "good, solid player for three years." He was awful as a freshman, marginally better as a sophomore and had flashes his junior year. I'd say his heroics vs. st,John's, Davidson and Butler (justifiably?) covered up for what was also a very inconsistent, if not downright mediocre, junior year.

I will give him credit for this, his improvement between sophomore and junior year HAD to be the result of some very hard work.

When a team's best player falls in the area between very inconsistent and downright mediocre that team's outlook is bleak. Instead, we were Big East co-champs and made the Elite 8. Whoever was coaching must have been a freakin' genius.

[GGGG]

When a team's best player falls in the area between very inconsistent and downright mediocre that team's outlook is bleak. Instead, we were Big East co-champs and made the Elite 8. Whoever was coaching must have been a freakin' genius.

POINTS!!!!!  I ONLY LOOK AT POINTS!!!!

[dgies9156]

So you blame Buzz for not getting Vander's production to match your misplaced "hype?"  

As for Mayo, that's all on him.  He clearly had the potential to produce better than a non-rated, three star guard, and oftentimes matched that potential.  But Buzz can't make people go to class.  Buzz can't make people show up on time for practice.  Buzz can't make someone a better teammate.  

Really Buzz can be blamed for a number of things, but you are grasping at straws here.

Sultan, you're a joy to argue with man. That's why I love this forum! The job of a coach is to teach and motivate. If my boss gets inconsistent and subpar performance from me, sure I get blamed. So does my boss. Ultimately, if we don't do what we say we do, we both are given our walking papers.

For Vander, I know he had some great moments. I also know that even in his junior year, he was inconsistent. He quit before we could see the full benefit of teaching and motivating -- Vander's senior year. I do blame the Hillbilly and Vander. The former because he could not find the key to unlock consistent greatness and could not keep him in the fold when it got to the point where maybe we were on the verge of a breakout year; the latter because he didn't do the things he needed to do to be great.

Ditto for Mayo.

Let me leave you with this thought (and then I promise, no more). In the mid-1960s, Steve Carlton came up with the St. Louis Cardinals. He had good years in 1967 and 1968 when the Cardinals were in the World Series. By 1970, he had a horrible year (10-19, worst in the NL) and was traded after the season to the Philadelphia Phillies. Compared to what he became as a Phillie, and what his talent made him, he was a bust with the St. Louis Cardinals. I'm measuring him against what he could have been rather than what he actually was.

I hope for both Vander and Todd's sake, the bust as a Warrior turns into something really great at some point in the future.

[bilsu]

So you blame Buzz for not getting Vander's production to match your misplaced "hype?"  

As for Mayo, that's all on him.  He clearly had the potential to produce better than a non-rated, three star guard, and oftentimes matched that potential.  But Buzz can't make people go to class.  Buzz can't make people show up on time for practice.  Buzz can't make someone a better teammate.  

Really Buzz can be blamed for a number of things, but you are grasping at straws here.

I was very hard on Blue his first couple of years. However, that was because he continuosly made dumb decisions on the court His junior year he did not make many dumb decisions on court, but he did after the season was over.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When a team's best player falls in the area between very inconsistent and downright mediocre that team's outlook is bleak. Instead, we were Big East co-champs and made the Elite 8. Whoever was coaching must have been a freakin' genius.

Apparently the genius switch can be turned off, despite that mantra that it cannot.

[BM1090]

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/vander-blue-1/gamelog/2013/

In his "mediocre" Junior year, Vander scored in double figures in 26 out of 34 games. He scored 16+ points in 18 of those 26 games. He shot 46% for the year with the best mid range game in the country according to Synergy.

EDIT: Didn't read the whole thread. Looks like others also made similar arguments. Bottom line, in no way was Vander a bust or mediocre. Not a chance.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/vander-blue-1/gamelog/2013/

In his "mediocre" Junior year, Vander scored in double figures in 26 out of 34 games. He scored 16+ points in 18 of those 26 games. He shot 46% for the year with the best mid range game in the country according to Synergy.

EDIT: Didn't read the whole thread. Looks like others also made similar arguments. Bottom line, in no way was Vander a bust or mediocre. Not a chance.

Thank you. I'm Curious what stats people have that prove that Vanders junior season was mediocre or a bust.

[NersEllenson]

When a team's best player falls in the area between very inconsistent and downright mediocre that team's outlook is bleak. Instead, we were Big East co-champs and made the Elite 8. Whoever was coaching must have been a freakin' genius.

Sounds an awful lot like the Chicos of the last 6 years...

But, Buzz did do a very good job his first 5 years at MU.  Best in my view since Al.  Too bad he had to lose himself along the way and have his ego spiral out of control.  Not entirely uncommon in the profession, nor unique to Buzz.  But, he wore out his welcome.  NO reason MU would let a coach basically walk, if they felt he was truly worth keeping.  He became higher maintenance and more of a diva than he was worth.  In some ways, not a whole lot different than Crean, but at least it took Crean 9 years to turn into a douche.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Well...Vander had more turnovers than assists, which last time I checked is actually less than mediocre. He was also awful in our final two NCAA games and was actually pretty terrible against Davidson as well (but look 14 points!!!).

His Game against Butler was, by far, the best game of his career and props to him for that.

What are you guys trying to sell? He wasn't a bust. He was pretty much OK.

[NersEllenson]

Well...Vander had more turnovers than assists, which last time I checked is actually less than mediocre. He was also awful in our final two NCAA games and was actually pretty terrible against Davidson as well (but look 14 points!!!).

His Game against Butler was, by far, the best game of his career and props to him for that.

What are you guys trying to sell? He wasn't a bust. He was pretty much OK.

I've felt some have greatly exaggerated the accomplishments of Vander's junior year.  He had a solid to good season - nothing spectacular.  Think the real reality is, is that all of us were so caught off guard by it, given what he'd shown as a freshman and sophomore - it seemed like a great year.  I don't recall another MU player improving so much between sophomore and junior year.  For that, above all else Vander deserves credit as he must have put in a ton of work, and he did have a few clutch games for us down the stretch.  But, his junior season was really nothing better than what Todd Mayo authored last year...hard as it is for some of Vander's biggest supporters here to acknowledge, even though the stats bear it out.

[GGGG]

But, his junior season was really nothing better than what Todd Mayo authored last year...hard as it is for some of Vander's biggest supporters here to acknowledge, even though the stats bear it out.

But see that's just not true because Mayo was used significantly less.  10 minutes less per game.  Blue pretty much had the same OR as Todd, but because he played almost 50% more, he clearly had a better year.

You *could* argue that if Mayo was used as much as Blue was the year before, that he could have had a better year.  But that would have meant being as offensively efficient over an extra 10 mpg.  Not saying it couldn't have happened....

Not to mention that Blue was the better defender.