Todd Mayo is no longer with Marquette!

[GGGG]

Bilsu was playing the hypothetical game of what could have been.  It is irrelevant because it wasn't the reality.  Blaming Buzz?  I wouldn't say blaming Buzz, but Buzz had a say and a role in Vander's decision - did not want him/think it was wise to turn pro - and apparently their relationship wasn't strong enough to where Vander took Buzz's advice to stay and play another year at MU.

You aren't blaming Buzz?  You said this.  "Vander and McKay both decided that they no longer wanted to play for Buzz/MU - so in my view, that's on Buzz."

To me...it sounds like you are blaming Buzz because Vander didn't listen to him.  Very odd.

[NersEllenson]

You challenged a guy to find a particular player with certain criteria. I did that. Now qualifying it, "oh, but Wragge is different" is crap - should have qualified it from the beginning. That said, I knew that is EXACTLY what you'd do and therefore I brought up another recent Bluejay in Korver, further pointing out his minutes, ORtg and usage. So you complaining about the Wragge example is goofy from a couple of perspectives.

Derrick & Jake - yes, a chance to be successful with certain other guys on the court, which didn't happen. Again, my jumping into this disgraceful "topic" was specifically on your statistical "claim", that's all.

Buzz's personnel decisions were completely flawed and that was clear before the conference season even began. It was bizarre. He had similar tendencies in past years, but in 2013-14 the specific groupings were worse than ever before and nothing short of strange *if* he had an interest in winning basketball games.

This December article tried to be kind about it.. "Marquette's Shots Aren't Adding Up", but the point was the starting group was flippin dumb. Nonetheless, things could have been remedied to a degree while still keeping Derrick and Jake together, but most certainly with Derrick still as starting point guard.

So, we're probably on the same page in large part.

BUT.. I will say this: I would not be surprised to see Derrick put together a solid senior year campaign and have some Scoopers change their tone a bit.

Interesting JayBee.  O Rating and Usage are interesting metrics to say the least - considering Wragge had an O-Rating higher than Doug McDermott last year, it shows how quirky the metric is.  Would anyone argue Wragge was a better player than Doug McDermott??  Absolutely not.  

Regarding Kaleb Korver in comparison to Derrick - that's quite a stretch - Korver looks a lot more like Jake Thomas, than does Jake look like Ethan Wragge.  Korver shot 38% on 3's in the season you reference.  Pretty sure that would require he need to be guarded everywhere on the floor.  That's the problem when you go all stat head - these ratings are assigned to the individual - but they cannot measure how such a huge deficit - such as not needing to be guarded everywhere on the floor negatively impact the whole team.  Other than of course looking at our team Offensive Efficiency Rating last season and seeing it was far and away the worst under Buzz in his 6 years...Our team O Efficiency Ratings under Buzz:

2009 - 12
2010 - 22
2011 - 21
2012 - 52
2013 - 25
2014 - 96

So basically in Buzz's first 5 years our average Offensive Efficiency Rating was 26.4.  Then in 2014 it falls all the way to 96th in the country??  Did Buzz somehow forget to coach offense last year?  As you said, the pairings and substitutions were awful..and it is really hard to fathom that Buzz didn't know it as well.

Here's Derrick, Jake and Korver compared:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jake-thomas&i=1&p1=kaleb-korver&p2=derrick-wilson

[NersEllenson]

You aren't blaming Buzz?  You said this.  "Vander and McKay both decided that they no longer wanted to play for Buzz/MU - so in my view, that's on Buzz."

To me...it sounds like you are blaming Buzz because Vander didn't listen to him.  Very odd.

I gave my explanation.  I don't care if you find it odd.  It wasn't in Vander's best interest to turn pro after his junior season, and Buzz is still his coach, and at that time also has a recruiting job to sell.  Vander didn't buy it.  And, it hasn't worked out very well for him.  Buzz failed to re-recruit Vander back to the program - a guy Buzz also bent over backward for during his time at MU...similar to Mayo.

[GGGG]

Interesting JayBee.  O Rating and Usage are interesting metrics to say the least - considering Wragge had an O-Rating higher than Doug McDermott last year, it shows how quirky the metric is.  Would anyone argue Wragge was a better player than Doug McDermott??  Absolutely not.

The metric isn't quirky if you understand what it is measuring.  Basically it measures how often a player does something positive offensively based on the number of possessions in which they are used.

Wragge was very efficient, but he was only used on just over a third of the possessions that McDermott was used.  If he was used more, he would become less efficient and his OR would decrease.

[GGGG]

I gave my explanation.  I don't care if you find it odd.  It wasn't in Vander's best interest to turn pro after his junior season, and Buzz is still his coach, and at that time also has a recruiting job to sell.  Vander didn't buy it.  And, it hasn't worked out very well for him.  Buzz failed to re-recruit Vander back to the program - a guy Buzz also bent over backward for during his time at MU...similar to Mayo.

So if you tell your kid "don't do that...it will hurt."  And they do exactly what you told them not to do, and they got hurt, would you blame yourself and not your kid?

I think you are going out of your way to blame Buzz for something he shouldn't be blamed for. 

[bilsu]

Bilsu was playing the hypothetical game of what could have been.  It is irrelevant because it wasn't the reality.  Blaming Buzz?  I wouldn't say blaming Buzz, but Buzz had a say and a role in Vander's decision - did not want him/think it was wise to turn pro - and apparently their relationship wasn't strong enough to where Vander took Buzz's advice to stay and play another year at MU.

Yes, I was playing the hypothetical game and it was not really about Buzz. It was about the posters on this board. Buzz would of technically been the same person either way. However. last year's team with Blue, McKay and a healthly Duane (minus Jake Thomas and maybe Juan Anderson) would of had a very good chance of winning the Big East and making the sweet 16 or elite 8. The point I was making was how many posters who are now attacking Buzz's character, would still be attacking him if the team would of won the Big East and had his typical run in the NCAA tournament. Especially, if he was still MU's coach. Remember before the season started most posters here were more worried about the Texas job opening up than what kind of season we were going to have.

[bilsu]

2009 - 12
2010 - 22
2011 - 21
2012 - 52
2013 - 25
2014 - 96

I find these offensive rating numbers to be very intereting. Not that last years were so poor. The fact that 2012 with DJO and Crowder averaging 18 points a game ranked significally
worse than the 2011 and 2013 teams. Of course when you have two players averaging that many points the team depends to be unbalanced, but if you had asked me I would of told you 2012 was a better team than 2013 even though the 2013 team made the elite 8.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yes, I was playing the hypothetical game and it was not really about Buzz. It was about the posters on this board. Buzz would of technically been the same person either way. However. last year's team with Blue, McKay and a healthly Duane (minus Jake Thomas and maybe Juan Anderson) would of had a very good chance of winning the Big East and making the sweet 16 or elite 8. The point I was making was how many posters who are now attacking Buzz's character, would still be attacking him if the team would of won the Big East and had his typical run in the NCAA tournament. Especially, if he was still MU's coach. Remember before the season started most posters here were more worried about the Texas job opening up than what kind of season we were going to have.

It's a sad but true fact, winning cures everything

[Galway Eagle]

It's a sad but true fact, winning cures everything

Nah Willie would still have his anti Buzz tirades

[mu03eng]

It's a sad but true fact, winning cures everything

I can't believe I'm about to type these next few words, but in Ners and Willies defense......if the team would have gone to the Elite Eight last year on Bilsu's premise that would change that something was rotten in Denmark.  I think the background issues that some of us either by willful ignorance or lack of access to the program would have been satisfied by everything but the issues still would have been there.

Winning would have made the whole thing harder for the administration to explain but knowing what I know now....I think they would have made the same moves anyway.

[MUDPT]

2009 - 12
2010 - 22
2011 - 21
2012 - 52
2013 - 25
2014 - 96

I find these offensive rating numbers to be very intereting. Not that last years were so poor. The fact that 2012 with DJO and Crowder averaging 18 points a game ranked significally
worse than the 2011 and 2013 teams. Of course when you have two players averaging that many points the team depends to be unbalanced, but if you had asked me I would of told you 2012 was a better team than 2013 even though the 2013 team made the elite 8.

These numbers have to be taken into context.  Last year's offenses, if I remember correctly, were more offensively efficient, with new foul rules.  Here are the raw numbers:

2009- 115.7
2010- 112.0
2011- 113.0
2012- 108.6
2013- 111.2
2014- 108.6

So the same rating 2 years later, results in a 44 point drop in rank. The 2012 team actually didn't shoot well.  Outside of DJO, Jae and Davante they weren't very skilled offensively.

[NersEllenson]

The metric isn't quirky if you understand what it is measuring.  Basically it measures how often a player does something positive offensively based on the number of possessions in which they are used.

Wragge was very efficient, but he was only used on just over a third of the possessions that McDermott was used.  If he was used more, he would become less efficient and his OR would decrease.

I believe we see this the same way.  But let's clarify:  Usage is simply defined as: assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.

Usage is valuable as a measure, because it essentially defines who a team's go to guy is, as you want your best player(s) taking the most shots/concluding possessions - and the best players typically are guys who can get their shot off anytime they want.

Nonetheless, when you have an O-Rating of 132.4, you are performing at a much higher efficiency and productivity than a guy with a 108 rating (the difference between Wragge and Jake and Wragge was used slightly more 14.8 to Jake's 13.1)

[NersEllenson]

So if you tell your kid "don't do that...it will hurt."  And they do exactly what you told them not to do, and they got hurt, would you blame yourself and not your kid?

I think you are going out of your way to blame Buzz for something he shouldn't be blamed for. 

Fair enough.  I see your point.

[dgies9156]

OK, let me leave this subject with this thought:

We had one of the best pairs of incoming guards in Blue and Mayo that Marquette has seen in years. We were up there, possibly, with Diener and Wade, Walton and Lee or Meminger and Washington. They were talented, highly recruited and we got them.

Throughout my time on this board, I've argued that the Hillbilly would be measured in a large way by what he did with these two highly sought after recruits. You can argue that Vander Blue had a break-out junior year but by-and-large both players had very disappointing careers at Marquette. Neither got a degree and both left under very cloudy circumstances.

That neither guard had confidence in the Hillbilly, as another poster pointed out, is incredibly evident. Todd Mayo's inability to be a team leader, play shut down defense and start for us is a huge indictment of the Hillbilly. To have that much talent with that little success suggests something wasn't right at the Al.

I do blame the Hillbilly for this. Either we were not recruiting the "right" kids or somehow the Hillbilly wasn't reaching them and getting what he should have been getting from them.

If I'm Wojo with Mayo at this point, I'm candid with him and would let him know that my focus is own my future and that of the team. It aint Mayo at this point in his career. I'm convinced Todd left because he knew he was going to be a role player and nothing more next year.

It's too bad.

[GGGG]

OK, let me leave this subject with this thought:

We had one of the best pairs of incoming guards in Blue and Mayo that Marquette has seen in years. We were up there, possibly, with Diener and Wade, Walton and Lee or Meminger and Washington. They were talented, highly recruited and we got them.

Throughout my time on this board, I've argued that the Hillbilly would be measured in a large way by what he did with these two highly sought after recruits. You can argue that Vander Blue had a break-out junior year but by-and-large both players had very disappointing careers at Marquette. Neither got a degree and both left under very cloudy circumstances.

Todd Mayo wasn't "highly recruited" in the sense that Blue was.  He was an unranked, three-star guard.  When he chose MU he had offers from Providence and Central Florida, with a late offer from West Virginia. 

Also I don't view Vander's MU career as a "disappointment" other than it ended a year earlier than it should have.  Furthermore, he didn't leave under "very cloudy circumstances."  He left because he thought he could make it in the NBA.

Others may view his career as a disappointment because of their outsized expectations...but that's their problem.

[Silkk the Shaka]

OK, let me leave this subject with this thought:

We had one of the best pairs of incoming guards in Blue and Mayo that Marquette has seen in years. We were up there, possibly, with Diener and Wade, Walton and Lee or Meminger and Washington. They were talented, highly recruited and we got them.

Throughout my time on this board, I've argued that the Hillbilly would be measured in a large way by what he did with these two highly sought after recruits. You can argue that Vander Blue had a break-out junior year but by-and-large both players had very disappointing careers at Marquette. Neither got a degree and both left under very cloudy circumstances.

That neither guard had confidence in the Hillbilly, as another poster pointed out, is incredibly evident. Todd Mayo's inability to be a team leader, play shut down defense and start for us is a huge indictment of the Hillbilly. To have that much talent with that little success suggests something wasn't right at the Al.

I do blame the Hillbilly for this. Either we were not recruiting the "right" kids or somehow the Hillbilly wasn't reaching them and getting what he should have been getting from them.

If I'm Wojo with Mayo at this point, I'm candid with him and would let him know that my focus is own my future and that of the team. It aint Mayo at this point in his career. I'm convinced Todd left because he knew he was going to be a role player and nothing more next year.

It's too bad.

The most talented guards in years... if you ignore the James/McNeal/Matthews trio that graduated only a couple years before those two stepped on campus... and DJO was a better college guard than either Mayo or Blue. I'm not a Mayo or Blue (or Buzz) hater, but that statement was blatantly false.

[keefe]

would you blame yourself and not your kid?
 

Most American parents never find fault with their precious spawn...

[Lennys Tap]

The most talented guards in years... if you ignore the James/McNeal/Matthews trio that graduated only a couple years before those two stepped on campus... and DJO was a better college guard than either Mayo or Blue. I'm not a Mayo or Blue (or Buzz) hater, but that statement was blatantly false.

Dead on jajuannaman. I watched Meminger, Butch, DJ, Jerel, Wesley and Diener play as freshmen. Some way better than Blue and Mayo as frosh (Dean, Butch, DJ), some a little better (Jerel, Wesley and Travis). Wade was light years better than all of them (dominated Wardle in practice) but we didn't get to see him officially until sophomore year. In addition, Mayo was a couple of years older than your average freshman when he arrived so big time development was less likely.

This is an example of bad history (Washington and Meminger didn't play together) mixed with poor analysis. Typical here since Buzz left - why deal in facts when making stuff up is so easy. Throw the requisite "hillbilly" or "lonesome cowboy" reference into the mix of BS, rinse, repeat.

[leever]

OK, let me leave this subject with this thought:

We had one of the best pairs of incoming guards in Blue and Mayo that Marquette has seen in years. We were up there, possibly, with Diener and Wade, Walton and Lee or Meminger and Washington. They were talented, highly recruited and we got them.

Even considering that you qualified this with "up there, POSSIBLY" - this is crazy!  There is no possible way that Blue and Mayo rank anywhere near the pairs you mentioned (even though Meminger and Washington were never a pair).  I suppose POSSIBLY if you just look at potential and not actual performance, they might make the top 10, maybe.

[tower912]

Almost nothing in there that is accurate. 

[dgies9156]

OK guys, I goofed on Meminger and Washington. Old age does that sometimes. And I should have included the Amigos. But I still think coming in Blue and Mayo had the potential to be a set of really great guards who could lead us very, very well. The talent appeared to be there coming in.

Look, as to Blue leaving early, he was a bust at Marquette, like it or not. He had two really weak years compared to his talent his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year was good but he left early apparently despite a strong urging not to by the Hillbilly. The fact that Blue did not trust the Hillbilly's judgment when he made his decision on going pro speaks volumes. Even though the Hillbilly was right about Blue!

If your general comparison is the Dukiet years or even the Deane years, I'm wrong -- Blue was good. But over our history, Blue was a disappointment.

For the most part, Mayo could not even get off the bench. Given what I thought his potential might be, he wasn't even close to what he could have been. I had kinda hoped that after Blue left, Mayo could have stepped up. I was wrong there, for sure!

Finally, to re-emphasize, I do blame the Hillbilly for not developing either of these guys the way I saw he could have. Maybe he recruited guys he should not have recruited or perhaps I overestimated their ability as a fan. But either way, neither of these guys developed as quickly or as thoroughly as they should have.

[brandx]

OK guys, I goofed on Meminger and Washington. Old age does that sometimes. And I should have included the Amigos. But I still think coming in Blue and Mayo had the potential to be a set of really great guards who could lead us very, very well. The talent appeared to be there coming in.

Look, as to Blue leaving early, he was a bust at Marquette, like it or not. He had two really weak years compared to his talent his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year was good but he left early apparently despite a strong urging not to by the Hillbilly. The fact that Blue did not trust the Hillbilly's judgment when he made his decision on going pro speaks volumes. Even though the Hillbilly was right about Blue!

If your general comparison is the Dukiet years or even the Deane years, I'm wrong -- Blue was good. But over our history, Blue was a disappointment.

For the most part, Mayo could not even get off the bench. Given what I thought his potential might be, he wasn't even close to what he could have been. I had kinda hoped that after Blue left, Mayo could have stepped up. I was wrong there, for sure!

Finally, to re-emphasize, I do blame the Hillbilly for not developing either of these guys the way I saw he could have. Maybe he recruited guys he should not have recruited or perhaps I overestimated their ability as a fan. But either way, neither of these guys developed as quickly or as thoroughly as they should have.

I disagree with the entire post.

[Lennys Tap]

Look, as to Blue leaving early, he was a bust at Marquette, like it or not.

The best player on our second most successful team (Big East title, Elite 8) in the last 38 years was a bust? Really? You're embarrassing yourself.

[CTWarrior]

The best player on our second most successful team (Big East title, Elite 8) in the last 38 years was a bust? Really? You're embarrassing yourself.

He was very disappointing his first two years, but was, as Lenny said, the best player on an Elite 8 team his junior year, including making huge baskets at crunch time in the Big East regular season clincher and our opening round NCAA game.  He saw the second weekend of the NCAAs all three years at MU.  You can be disappointed in his overall career and you may have a point, but calling him a bust is ridiculous.

[Lennys Tap]

For the most part, Mayo could not even get off the bench. Given what I thought his potential might be, he wasn't even close to what he could have been. I had kinda hoped that after Blue left, Mayo could have stepped up. I was wrong there, for sure!

Revisionist history. Todd played more than half the time (21 mpg) as a freshman and was ineligible or suspended much of his sophomore year. After an ankle injury and another suspension limited his time early in his junior year he played big minutes down the stretch last year.

Regarding his "potential", don't forget he was a very old freshman (turned 21 that year).