The Official Cubs Win The World Series Thread

[Vander Blue Man Group]

It would be kind of nice if people wouldn't talk in absolutes.

"I don't think he uses PEDs."  or "I think he uses PEDs."

Because none of us here really knows either way...

Of course I don't know for sure but after gathering all of the information I think the logical belief by any general non-Cubs baseball fan should be that he is clean. 

[wadesworld]

Do folks think Daniel Murphy is on PEDs because he suddenly became one of the best hitters in baseball this year at the age of 31?

Yes.

[MerrittsMustache]

I also said this, for anyone who thinks I'm singling out Arrieta.  I'm not, at all.  I think a huge, huge majority of baseball (and football) players take some sort of PEDs at some point in their careers, and most throughout their entire careers.  There are people out there who have always been able to find a way to get a competitive advantage without it popping up on a drug test.  I have nothing against Arrieta.  I would be shocked if he has not taken PEDs in his career.  Just like I'd be shocked if many, many other professional athletes out there haven't, including players on my favorite Brewers and Packers teams.  Heck, I personally think Giannis has probably taken some sort of PEDs.  To me?  No big deal.  I just find it funny when people act so shocked that someone could actually question a guy's word of "I didn't take anything."

If you think that basically every pro athlete is on PEDs then what's the point in arguing about one specific player ad nauseam? Why such outrage over one player's statistical improvement if you think that nearly everyone is also cheating? Could it perhaps be related to the team for whom he plays? I mean, Mike Napoli had career highs in HR and RBI at age 34. I don't think he's juiced up. Where's your Mike Napoli outrage?

[DegenerateDish]

Davis stole second so easily, I don't know why he didn't just steal third on the very next pitch. He then would have scored the tying run on the fly to left that Zobrist stumbled under like a drunk sailor.

I like Francona, an excellent manager, but he waited one batter too long to let Davis stroll into third base with the easy steal.

I know it sounds like a bad idea, but there was zero chance of Chapman throwing over to third, and it would have put Bryant in a tough spot with Lindor up. Given your down one in the 8th with two out, I think it was worth considering. Yes, you potentially take the bat out of Lindor's hands there, but you'd have 3-4-5 up in the 9th. All hindsight now though.

[wadesworld]

If you think that basically every pro athlete is on PEDs then what's the point in arguing about one specific player ad nauseam? Why such outrage over one player's statistical improvement if you think that nearly everyone is also cheating? Could it perhaps be related to the team for whom he plays? I mean, Mike Napoli had career highs in HR and RBI at age 34. I don't think he's juiced up. Where's your Mike Napoli outrage?

I'm not the one who brought Arrieta's doping up. I'd be happy to participate in a discussion on any athlete. Feel free to start it and I'll jump right in.

No outrage at all from me.

[MU1992]

I don't know who is or isn't on PEDS.  Sandy Koufax and Randy Johnson got significantly better with age.

[buckchuckler]

I know it sounds like a bad idea, but there was zero chance of Chapman throwing over to third, and it would have put Bryant in a tough spot with Lindor up. Given your down one in the 8th with two out, I think it was worth considering. Yes, you potentially take the bat out of Lindor's hands there, but you'd have 3-4-5 up in the 9th. All hindsight now though.

The answer in so clear.  With Kipnis up and Davis in second, Davis should have stolen 3rd and Kipnis should have bunted.  Davis should have wheeled all the way around to score.  They had a chance to do a perfect Major league.  And they missed it.  WTF.

[mu03eng]

The answer in so clear.  With Kipnis up and Davis in second, Davis should have stolen 3rd and Kipnis should have bunted.  Davis should have wheeled all the way around to score.  They had a chance to do a perfect Major league.  And they missed it.  WTF.

Not sure they have the crotch grab signal in the book tho

[buckchuckler]

Not sure they have the crotch grab signal in the book tho

The sign is Kipnis calling his shot.

[LAZER]

I have said as much multiple times on here before.

Yeah, I guess I don't understand the point of the conversation then.  If you assume everyone is using PED's, what difference does it make if Arrieta is?

[mu03eng]

The sign is Kipnis calling his shot.

Technically that's part of the subterfuge not the signal.

[wadesworld]

Yeah, I guess I don't understand the point of the conversation then.  If you assume everyone is using PED's, what difference does it make if Arrieta is?

It doesn't.  Which is why I responded exactly the same way I responded to the other names thrown around here (Napoli, Garra, Murphy, etc.).  The difference is the Cubs fans jumped all over the Arrieta comment and have carried on about it.  So like I said, I'm happy to jump into discussions on any athlete.  The only player people here have felt the need to carry on a discussion about has been Arrieta, so that's why I've been discussing him.

Want to discuss others?  Bring them up and carry on a discussion.  Otherwise it ends up like the Murphy name drop.  "Is Murphy doping because he suddenly became one of the best hitters in baseball?"  My response?  "Yes."  How is that any different than, "Arrieta should've kept doping."  with my response being, "Bingo."

Maybe the Cubs fans just got overly sensitive here?  Otherwise we can discuss Murphy, Napoli, Giannis, Clay, Braun, Sosa, or whoever else people would like to discuss.  I'm all for it.  Throw some names out and let's discuss.

[NotBuzzWilliams]

It doesn't.  Which is why I responded exactly the same way I responded to the other names thrown around here (Napoli, Garra, Murphy, etc.).  The difference is the Cubs fans jumped all over the Arrieta comment and have carried on about it.  So like I said, I'm happy to jump into discussions on any athlete.  The only player people here have felt the need to carry on a discussion about has been Arrieta, so that's why I've been discussing him.

Want to discuss others?  Bring them up and carry on a discussion.  Otherwise it ends up like the Murphy name drop.  "Is Murphy doping because he suddenly became one of the best hitters in baseball?"  My response?  "Yes."  How is that any different than, "Arrieta should've kept doping."  with my response being, "Bingo."

Maybe the Cubs fans just got overly sensitive here?  Otherwise we can discuss Murphy, Napoli, Giannis, Clay, Braun, Sosa, or whoever else people would like to discuss.  I'm all for it.  Throw some names out and let's discuss.

I've mostly been lurking in this thread, but I think the problem people have with what you've been arguing is that you've set it up that you can't possibly lose.  If a guy says he didn't cheat, you can say you don't believe him.  If a guy fails a test, you can say I told you so.

[MerrittsMustache]

It doesn't.  Which is why I responded exactly the same way I responded to the other names thrown around here (Napoli, Garra, Murphy, etc.).  The difference is the Cubs fans jumped all over the Arrieta comment and have carried on about it.  So like I said, I'm happy to jump into discussions on any athlete.  The only player people here have felt the need to carry on a discussion about has been Arrieta, so that's why I've been discussing him.

Want to discuss others?  Bring them up and carry on a discussion.  Otherwise it ends up like the Murphy name drop.  "Is Murphy doping because he suddenly became one of the best hitters in baseball?"  My response?  "Yes."  How is that any different than, "Arrieta should've kept doping."  with my response being, "Bingo."

Maybe the Cubs fans just got overly sensitive here?  Otherwise we can discuss Murphy, Napoli, Giannis, Clay, Braun, Sosa, or whoever else people would like to discuss.  I'm all for it.  Throw some names out and let's discuss.

Instead of wasting everyone's time "discussing" it. Let's just do this for reference...

Poster: I don't think (insert name of an athlete) is using PEDs.
wades: Yes, he is.

There. That pretty much ends the Arrieta discussion as well as any and all discussions involving wades and the PED use of athletes.

[StillAWarrior]

It doesn't.  Which is why I responded exactly the same way I responded to the other names thrown around here (Napoli, Garra, Murphy, etc.).  The difference is the Cubs fans jumped all over the Arrieta comment and have carried on about it.  So like I said, I'm happy to jump into discussions on any athlete.  The only player people here have felt the need to carry on a discussion about has been Arrieta, so that's why I've been discussing him.

Want to discuss others?  Bring them up and carry on a discussion.  Otherwise it ends up like the Murphy name drop.  "Is Murphy doping because he suddenly became one of the best hitters in baseball?"  My response?  "Yes."  How is that any different than, "Arrieta should've kept doping."  with my response being, "Bingo."

Maybe the Cubs fans just got overly sensitive here?  Otherwise we can discuss Murphy, Napoli, Giannis, Clay, Braun, Sosa, or whoever else people would like to discuss.  I'm all for it.  Throw some names out and let's discuss.

What the hell are you saying about Napoli using PEDs?  That's crap.  Next I suppose you'll say Travis Haffner was doping.


(Just trying to help, Wades)

[copious1218]

I don't recall any of those players going from a garbage pitcher to a historically good pitcher in 1 offseason's time.  But I could be wrong there.  There's a big difference dropping your ERA by 1 run to dropping your ERA by 4.5 runs at 28 years old.  Did those guys go 2 seasons of historical pitching, then vehemently deny any PED use, and then magically his average pitch speeds go back to what they were before he magically became the best pitcher in baseball at 28 years old?  If so, we can compare the situations.  I'm fairly confident in saying that wasn't the case though.

I just think it's funny that Chicago sports fans get all hot and bothered when someone even considers the possibility that a 28 year old started throwing the ball harder and went from a guy with a career ERA of over 5 to someone who had a couple of the best seasons in the history of baseball in one offseason probably used PEDs, but then cry and scream at every chance that "Oh my gosh an NFL linebacker took HGH!  Clay Matthews is such a doper!"  There's no doubt in my mind that Clay Matthews took PEDs.  BUT if either of Jake Arrieta's rise or Clay Matthews's rise makes sense as "natural" it's without a doubt Clay Matthews.  NFL bloodline, developed at 18-20 years old (you know, when athletes actually do develop physically), has been a fairly dominant, but not the greatest football player on the planet.  Meanwhile Arrieta is just as jacked up as the OLB that Clay Matthews is and completely stunk until he hit the age of 28 years old, where not only do his statistics suddenly become historically good, but his pitch speeds increase across the board.

Again, no doubt Clay Matthews did PEDs somewhere along the line.  But if there's one athlete whose development matches that of someone who did it "naturally" it is certainly not Jake Arrieta.  The guy PED'd his ass off.  And good for him, it's paid off and he's going to be an even richer man for it.  Again, those who don't have an insanely uphill battle in baseball.

Wades, I have no problem with you questioning whether Arrieta is on PEDs.  There are certainly some statistics that could suggest it is not natural.  But that is not what you are doing.  You are not merely "considering the possibility" as you claim in the second paragraph.  You have declared that he has in the third paragraph.  That's personally what bothers me about your posts on this subject and I think there's where most people have the objection.  Then again, I cannot speak for others. 

[mikekinsellaMVP]

It doesn't.  Which is why I responded exactly the same way I responded to the other names thrown around here (Napoli, Garra, Murphy, etc.).  The difference is the Cubs fans jumped all over the Arrieta comment and have carried on about it.  So like I said, I'm happy to jump into discussions on any athlete.  The only player people here have felt the need to carry on a discussion about has been Arrieta, so that's why I've been discussing him.

Want to discuss others?  Bring them up and carry on a discussion.  Otherwise it ends up like the Murphy name drop.  "Is Murphy doping because he suddenly became one of the best hitters in baseball?"  My response?  "Yes."  How is that any different than, "Arrieta should've kept doping."  with my response being, "Bingo."

Maybe the Cubs fans just got overly sensitive here?  Otherwise we can discuss Murphy, Napoli, Giannis, Clay, Braun, Sosa, or whoever else people would like to discuss.  I'm all for it.  Throw some names out and let's discuss.

Wades - if you haven't checked this out yet, I suggest you do so.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jake-arrieta-is-not-your-normal-ace/

Baseball has been so dirty over the last 30 years, I view every dominant or record-breaking performance with an eye of skepticism.  You are absolutely right - the transformation in Arrieta's performance is highly unusual.  But at the same time, so is the degree to which his mechanics have changed.

I don't think Cub fans are being overly sensitive about Arrieta and juicing.  Rather, I think it's an annoyance that a guy is being definitively branded as a juicer when there is a plausible (though also not definitive) alternative that has been thoroughly observed, measured, and noted.

(That being said, this article was written last year.  I would love to see if his regression correlates to additional movement of his release.)

[brandx]

I don't know who is or isn't on PEDS.  Sandy Koufax and Randy Johnson got significantly better with age.

Koufax had a normal progression where he reached his peak in his late 20's. There have been enough studies to show that the age at which Koufax was at his best is the age where historically, the vast majority of players are at their best.

RJ pitched at the height of the steroid era.

[brewcity77]

As they say, "The lady doth protest too much."

Yes, she does. Except in this case, you're the lady.

It wasn't in one offseason, it was actually virtually overnight. Look at the difference in 2013:

Orioles: 5 GS, 1-2 Record, 7.23 ERA, 1.775 WHIP, 1.35 K/BB ratio
Cubs: 9 GS, 4-2 record, 3.33 ERA, 1.123 WHIP, 1.54 K/BB ratio

So just changing addresses, he improved his record, ERA, WHIP, and K/BB ratio. He also allowed fewer hits per nine, fewer walks per nine, and averaged more than an additional inning per outing. So either he started juicing and saw instant results, or maybe the coaching had something to do with it.

[naginiF]

Instead of wasting everyone's time "discussing" it. Let's just do this for reference...

Poster: I don't think (insert name of an athlete) is using PEDs.
wades: Yes, he is.

There. That pretty much ends the Arrieta discussion as well as any and all discussions involving wades and the PED use of athletes.

Reading the PED portion of this thread i'm amazed anyone would say a professional athlete wouldn't use EVERY possible advantage and angle he/she could to gain an advantage.  By nature, they are super competitive and are constantly in an environment where options are available to them - PED's, opioids, stimulants, alien placenta....whatever.  The only realistic defense is personal knowledge or complete homerism.


 

[brewcity77]

Reading the PED portion of this thread i'm amazed anyone would say a professional athlete wouldn't use EVERY possible advantage and angle he/she could to gain an advantage.  By nature, they are super competitive and are constantly in an environment where options are available to them - PED's, opioids, stimulants, alien placenta....whatever.  The only realistic defense is personal knowledge or complete homerism.

I don't think most mind the discussion, it's the blatant, unquestioned accusation without any rationale or knowledge. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I'm not going to sweat that much over it and I think there's an argument both ways. But it's not like his head size changed three sizes that offseason.

[naginiF]

I don't think most mind the discussion, it's the blatant, unquestioned accusation without any rationale or knowledge. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I'm not going to sweat that much over it and I think there's an argument both ways. But it's not like his head size changed three sizes that offseason.

I understand the opposition to how the conversation was structured.  But if you take the conversation out of Chicago for a second and say it was Adrien Peterson a couple of years ago......none of us were there during the knee repair surgery so we don't know the extent of the injury or the exact skill of the repair.  Therefore, his recovery could be argued as solely due to a highly skilled surgeon and a super dedicated athlete.  Even I, a life long Vikings fan, would say that arguing AD is 'clean' is blind homerism - it was definitely a skilled surgeon and dedicated athlete, but that wasn't all it was (ditto Cutler tonight apparently  )

[wadesworld]

Yes, she does. Except in this case, you're the lady.

It wasn't in one offseason, it was actually virtually overnight. Look at the difference in 2013:

Orioles: 5 GS, 1-2 Record, 7.23 ERA, 1.775 WHIP, 1.35 K/BB ratio
Cubs: 9 GS, 4-2 record, 3.33 ERA, 1.123 WHIP, 1.54 K/BB ratio

So just changing addresses, he improved his record, ERA, WHIP, and K/BB ratio. He also allowed fewer hits per nine, fewer walks per nine, and averaged more than an additional inning per outing. So either he started juicing and saw instant results, or maybe the coaching had something to do with it.

No.  Switching leagues and pitching against a bunch of teams who have literally never played against you very well should increase your statistics for the first half of a season to full season.  See what Mike Fiers did a few years ago.  See what Junior Garra just did.  It's what happens when there is no book on you.

But sure, if you want to believe that the Cubs brought in Arrieta and, in the middle of that season, had him entirely change all of his fundamentals that season and he magically figured it out on the fly, more power to you.  I'll go ahead and say they didn't make any drastic changes to his mechanics until the offseason between the 2013 and 2014 seasons.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

No.  Switching leagues and pitching against a bunch of teams who have literally never played against you very well should increase your statistics for the first half of a season to full season.  See what Mike Fiers did a few years ago.  See what Junior Garra just did.  It's what happens when there is no book on you.

But sure, if you want to believe that the Cubs brought in Arrieta and, in the middle of that season, had him entirely change all of his fundamentals that season and he magically figured it out on the fly, more power to you.  I'll go ahead and say they didn't make any drastic changes to his mechanics until the offseason between the 2013 and 2014 seasons.

Except you'd be wrong, yet again. Arrieta spent time in the minors after the trade to start the adjustment process.

Not to mention the development of his "slutter" has played a large part in his success. A pitch he did not use during his time in Baltimore.

[wadesworld]

Except you'd be wrong, yet again. Arrieta spent time in the minors after the trade to start the adjustment process.

Not to mention the development of his "slutter" has played a large part in his success. A pitch he did not use during his time in Baltimore.

Sorry, I trusted that a Cubs fan was providing accurate information in saying that he went from sucking in Baltimore one day to kicking ass in Chicago the next.

Yes, she does. Except in this case, you're the lady.

It wasn't in one offseason, it was actually virtually overnight. Look at the difference in 2013:

Orioles: 5 GS, 1-2 Record, 7.23 ERA, 1.775 WHIP, 1.35 K/BB ratio
Cubs: 9 GS, 4-2 record, 3.33 ERA, 1.123 WHIP, 1.54 K/BB ratio

So just changing addresses, he improved his record, ERA, WHIP, and K/BB ratio. He also allowed fewer hits per nine, fewer walks per nine, and averaged more than an additional inning per outing. So either he started juicing and saw instant results, or maybe the coaching had something to do with it.

So there was definitely some time for him between being in Baltimore and being in the majors to receive some...treatment...

Weird.

Anyway, I'll stick to a guy having a career (did you miss it again?  I bolded it for you.  CAREER) ERA of well over 5 to suddenly cutting that in less than half at the young, blossoming age of 28 in a game where just about every player has been using banned substances of some sort for decades and decades was probably using PEDs.