MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: wadesworld on February 03, 2017, 12:47:50 PM
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Mick Cronin didn't go to the NCAA Tournament once in his first four years at Cinci. In the 6 seasons since then he hasn't missed the NCAA Tournament.
Wojo has some work to do for sure. But the talent he has brought in in the short time he has been here is pretty remarkable compared to what he was left with. Next year's class should balance the roster for the first time in his time as our coach. Once he has all his guys in we will see the results we should expect here.
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Mick Cronin didn't go to the NCAA Tournament once in his first four years at Cinci. In the 6 seasons since then he hasn't missed the NCAA Tournament.
Wojo has some work to do for sure. But the talent he has brought in in the short time he has been here is pretty remarkable compared to what he was left with. Next year's class should balance the roster for the first time in his time as our coach. Once he has all his guys in we will see the results we should expect here.
Damn - there you go with common sense and sobering thoughts. Lol. Good job!!
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And Cronin brought in a major recruit in lance stephenson that was fantastic and nearly got them to the NCAA tournament but they fell short. Just a fun parallel
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Mick Cronin didn't go to the NCAA Tournament once in his first four years at Cinci. In the 6 seasons since then he hasn't missed the NCAA Tournament.
Wojo has some work to do for sure. But the talent he has brought in in the short time he has been here is pretty remarkable compared to what he was left with. Next year's class should balance the roster for the first time in his time as our coach. Once he has all his guys in we will see the results we should expect here.
Agreed. We've been getting better every year since Wojo started. I'm bullish on him.
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I get that and all - but not going to lie, I am going to be really f'in disappointed if we miss the tourney again this year. I know the trajectory looks good and all, but it will still be extremely disappointing.
That doesn't mean I will be less of a fan, yadayayaya, I just want to dance. That's what CBB is all about.
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I get that and all - but not going to lie, I am going to be really f'in disappointed if we miss the tourney again this year. I know the trajectory looks good and all, but it will still be extremely disappointing.
That doesn't mean I will be less of a fan, yadayayaya, I just want to dance. That's what CBB is all about.
There would be reasons to be disappointed but also reasons to think the future is still bright. Howard has hit a bit of a lull for him, but even so, the difference between his "bad" compared to his "good" is so much smaller than, say, Luke's or JJJ's. And he's a freshman. Same with Sam.
Whereas right now our upperclassmen can have pretty nice "highs," I'm thinking we see Sam and Markus more in the mold of Jenkins and Brunson where you know what you're getting pretty much every night (sure, some outliers here or there, but overall pretty dang good night in and night out). When you're led by guys who you have no idea how they will show up night in and night out (Luke, JJJ, Katin) seasons tend to go like this. Some great highs, and some awful lows.
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There would be reasons to be disappointed but also reasons to think the future is still bright. Howard has hit a bit of a lull for him, but even so, the difference between his "bad" compared to his "good" is so much smaller than, say, Luke's or JJJ's. And he's a freshman. Same with Sam.
Whereas right now our upperclassmen can have pretty nice "highs," I'm thinking we see Sam and Markus more in the mold of Jenkins and Brunson where you know what you're getting pretty much every night (sure, some outliers here or there, but overall pretty dang good night in and night out). When you're led by guys who you have no idea how they will show up night in and night out (Luke, JJJ, Katin) seasons tend to go like this. Some great highs, and some awful lows.
Ohh, I compeltely agree. The future appears to be bright. I believe in Wojo. Not sure next year will be much better than this year, but again, I just want to make the tourney.
I didn't suffer through the bad years like some (most) around here have. My fandom began in 2008, so call me spoiled, but I fell in love with MU basketball because they were good and nationally relevant every year. I wasn't a bball fan prior to college. I don't expect to be a blue blood or perennial top 15 squad, but I do expect to make the tournament every year. It today's NCAA - its not that hard. Good scheduling is such a huge component of it. We saw an improvement there from last year's debacle, but there is still a bunch of room for additional improvement. Not to mention leaving an un-used non-con game is just silly, if only for pure optics in win totals.
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Can't go a couple weeks outout someone posting an example of a new coach struggling for X years, then doing well.
Curious, how about examples of new coaches who struggled for X years, then kept struggling and was fired?
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There is a big focus on the players and I get that. I really like who has been brought in.
But my concern is Wojo's defense seems to be going the wrong direction. We are ranked something like #150 according to Pomeroy. I don't think this team, with these players should be that bad.
Wojo has enough strengths that I can accept he might not be an defensive guru. But then he should recognize that and have someone on the bench who can install a better defense.
That is my concern that will go beyond whatever recruits are brought in.
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Can't go a couple weeks outout someone posting an example of a new coach struggling for X years, then doing well.
Curious, how about examples of new coaches who struggled for X years, then kept struggling and was fired?
Many. But I don't think that applies to Wojo because I don't think he is struggling.
But how about coaches that struggled, moved in a positive direction, but never were able to get over the hump of winning consistently.
So what if instead of Mick Cronin, he was more like Georgia's Mark Fox or ASU-era Herb Sendek?
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If Wojo sticks after Year 5, it's a great process. If he hightails to the ACC, then we're back to square 1. Unless of course we hire Stan and then we're rolling.
I'm all for a long term, well thoughtout plan as long as the coach stays.
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There is a big focus on the players and I get that. I really like who has been brought in.
But my concern is Wojo's defense seems to be going the wrong direction. We are ranked something like #150 according to Pomeroy. I don't think this team, with these players should be that bad.
Wojo has enough strengths that I can accept he might not be an defensive guru. But then he should recognize that and have someone on the bench who can install a better defense.
That is my concern that will go beyond whatever recruits are brought in.
I think you have to realize we have a bunch of non-athletic players right now at MU. If Wojo could have gotten someone who physically looks like Maurice Lucas
or Bob Lackey, different story. Luke, Hauser, Cheatham, Howard, Rowsey all good basketball players but together have no quickness. The one player that does plays
out of control and does not know how to play hard, particularly on the D side. Even the 2 bigs last spring that Wojo missed on, might not have helped this team either, they both play sparingly at there respective colleges. MU might not be as good next year but they will have a physical presence at least. John and Ike are
athletic and Cain maybe the most athletic recruit in years, at least on video clips. Really like to get Elliott for next year.
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I think you have to realize we have a bunch of non-athletic players right now at MU. If Wojo could have gotten someone who physically looks like Maurice Lucas
or Bob Lackey, different story. Luke, Hauser, Cheatham, Howard, Rowsey all good basketball players but together have no quickness. The one player that does plays
out of control and does not know how to play hard, particularly on the D side. Even the 2 bigs last spring that Wojo missed on, might not have helped this team either, they both play sparingly at there respective colleges. MU might not be as good next year but they will have a physical presence at least. John and Ike are
athletic and Cain maybe the most athletic recruit in years, at least on video clips. Really like to get Elliott for next year.
No doubt these players this year would never be a Top 50 defense. The issue is that they are #150. If they were #75 I could.accept it.
As low as it is I put it on the coaching.
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I respect the process. But I'm also not willing to dismiss our tournament chances for this season yet. Lunardi still has us in for Christsakes!
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No doubt these players this year would never be a Top 50 defense. The issue is that they are #150. If they were #75 I could.accept it.
As low as it is I put it on the coaching.
Then I would say the coaches recruited the wrong players, can not expect a bunch of skinny white kids to compete against quick black kids, it does not happen. Did
you watch the St. Johns game? MU can not defend that type of quickness, real simple. Luke, Hauser and Reinhardt barely can get off there feet on rebounding.
Good basketball players but to bad there all on the same team. Explain what any coach can do with that. Maybe a tight 2-1-2 zone might work or like Villy miss every
3 taken in the last five minutes of a game. Next year I expect a much different team on offense as well as D.
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Then I would say the coaches recruited the wrong players, can not expect a bunch of skinny white kids to compete against quick black kids, it does not happen. Did
you watch the St. Johns game? MU can not defend that type of quickness, real simple. Luke, Hauser and Reinhardt barely can get off there feet on rebounding.
Good basketball players but to bad there all on the same team. Explain what any coach can do with that. Maybe a tight 2-1-2 zone might work or like Villy miss every
3 taken in the last five minutes of a game. Next year I expect a much different team on offense as well as D.
:o
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:o
Yeah, maybe rural kids opposed to inner city kids might have been a better comparison.
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Then I would say the coaches recruited the wrong players, can not expect a bunch of skinny white kids to compete against quick black kids, it does not happen. Did
you watch the St. Johns game? MU can not defend that type of quickness, real simple. Luke, Hauser and Reinhardt barely can get off there feet on rebounding.
Good basketball players but to bad there all on the same team. Explain what any coach can do with that. Maybe a tight 2-1-2 zone might work or like Villy miss every
3 taken in the last five minutes of a game. Next year I expect a much different team on offense as well as D.
Did you watch the St. Johns game? You must not have heard anyone mention that St. John's backcourt is among the best in the country and are too quick for most players to guard.
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If Wojo sticks after Year 5, it's a great process. If he hightails to the ACC, then we're back to square 1. Unless of course we hire Stan and then we're rolling.
I'm all for a long term, well thoughtout plan as long as the coach stays.
I don't really see Wojo hightailing to the ACC, honestly.
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If Wojo sticks after Year 5, it's a great process. If he hightails to the ACC, then we're back to square 1. Unless of course we hire Stan and then we're rolling.
I'm all for a long term, well thoughtout plan as long as the coach stays.
I'd be all about Wojo leaving for a big time ACC program. That would mean he had some great success at MU.
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Then I would say the coaches recruited the wrong players, can not expect a bunch of skinny white kids to compete against quick black kids, it does not happen. Did
you watch the St. Johns game? MU can not defend that type of quickness, real simple. Luke, Hauser and Reinhardt barely can get off there feet on rebounding.
Good basketball players but to bad there all on the same team. Explain what any coach can do with that. Maybe a tight 2-1-2 zone might work or like Villy miss every
3 taken in the last five minutes of a game. Next year I expect a much different team on offense as well as D.
Lol, time to fast forward to 2017, bud.
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I'd be all about Wojo leaving for a big time ACC program. That would mean he had some great success at MU.
Exactly, and I believe the next 2 recruiting classes will make a difference.
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Did you watch the St. Johns game? You must not have heard anyone mention that St. John's backcourt is among the best in the country and are too quick for most players to guard.
It was not just the backcourt, it was there whole team except Massino, who is pretty good shooter. Hauser could not guard his man nor could Luke, to quick of
jumpers off there feet.
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Lol, time to fast forward to 2017, bud.
What I have to be politically correct on a basketball board or can I just tell it like it really is???
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What I have to be politically correct on a basketball board or can I just tell it like it really is???
Well first of all, your initial statement was inaccurate. Our "black kids" can't stay in front of guys either.
Second, there is ZERO reason to insert race into it at all.
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Well first of all, your initial statement was inaccurate. Our "black kids" can't stay in front of guys either.
Second, there is ZERO reason to insert race into it at all.
This
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Yeah, maybe rural kids opposed to inner city kids might have been a better comparison.
traditionals to non-traditionals a ina?
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Well first of all, your initial statement was inaccurate. Our "black kids" can't stay in front of guys either.
This was my first thought too, lol
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Well first of all, your initial statement was inaccurate. Our "black kids" can't stay in front of guys either.
Second, there is ZERO reason to insert race into it at all.
When asked why Marquette was dominating Wisconsin in hoops Al replied that John Powless recruited big white slow-footed Scandinavian farm kids while he signed quick black kids from the inner cities.
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And a lot has changed since the 1970s. Just because Al said something then doesn't make it gospel today. Anyone believing otherwise is a fool.
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I don't really see Wojo hightailing to the ACC, honestly.
At this point, what ACC team is dumping its coach for Wojo? Unless it's Duke or NC, he probably wouldn't leave anyway. If he takes MU to the tournament (AND wins two games there next season AND Coach K's back goes out), perhaps Duke calls. In which case he's gone.
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And a lot has changed since the 1970s. Just because Al said something then doesn't make it gospel today. Anyone believing otherwise is a fool.
It was nothing more than a comment by Al.
Anyone looking for more is an idiot. But then, some here pretend to be experts on things which they have no real knowledge of.
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Ok, here we go.......
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Why?
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It was nothing more than a comment by Al.
Anyone looking for more is an idiot. But then, some here pretend to be experts on things which they have no real knowledge of.
Lol
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I'd be all about Wojo leaving for a big time ACC program. That would mean he had some great success at MU.
You just want to be able to have more "respect the process" posts and threads.
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Anyone looking for more is an idiot. But then, some here pretend to be experts on things which they have no real knowledge of.
I know keefe. But we put up with you anyway.
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So right now are we supposed to be calling for Wojo's head on the chopping block, or are we supposed to be afraid he is leaving to take over at Duke.
Can we maybe add a tab right above SOTG with a color code.
Code Red: Fire Wojo
Code Green: Wojo takes over at Duke
We could add a:
Code Yellow: Wojo stays at MU and continues to grow are program.
But it seems like no one ever considers that an option so it would be fruitless.
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I know keefe. But we put up with you anyway.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo29kaSxg51qaky2jo1_500.gif)
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It was nothing more than a comment by Al.
Anyone looking for more is an idiot. But then, some here pretend to be experts on things which they have no real knowledge of.
It was a comment by Al in which he equated race to athleticism which was acceptable back then but isn't now.
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#TrustTheProcess
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#TrustTheProcess
No.
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Code Yellow: Wojo stays at MU and continues to grow are program.
But it seems like no one ever considers that an option so it would be fruitless.
I do.
Where we're going is good to great and while the jury is still out, the facts are clear. Just to remind everyone:
1) Wojo inherited seven scholarship players on his first team. The kids played hard and lost several games because they ran out of gas. Period.
2) His second team included a Top 10 recruiting class. It won 20 games on a weak schedule.
3) His third team may well make the NCAA tournament. As I have said before, if Henry had stayed one more year, we probably would be a Top 15 and maybe a Top 10 team.
4) His fourth team is on the road to filling out many of the weaknesses we currently have.
Look, the guys are "getting it" and beginning to do it. I have no way of knowing, but the fact that Wojo sat by Coach K for nearly two decades and waiting until the Marquette offer arose, says volumes about how we are still regarded. If he performs here -- and I think he will -- there will be a place for him at Marquette and I'm going to state for the record that Marquette will be his kind of place.
Just remember one thing about Duke: It's a National powerhouse and commends the attention of coaches that would never think of moving. Short of perhaps Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, Slick Rick and John Calipari, there isn't a coach in the country who would not jump at the chance to coach at Duke. Short of a national championship banner hanging in the Milwaukee Bucks Center, I don't see Coach Wojo being a top pick for Duke. Too many schools have gone down the slippery slope of decline by staying too close to their family tree instead of looking at the total of what's out there. I just don't see Duke doing that (See: Raymonds, Hank; Guthridge, Bill; or, Thompson III, John for starters).
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But how about coaches that struggled, moved in a positive direction, but never were able to get over the hump of winning consistently.
There are plenty of those, too, yes. But most of us who cite the Coach Ks and Jay Wrights and KOs are the more optimistic types here on Scoop. We want Wojo to succeed and we think he deserves the same chance ... especially since it is obvious to all but the real haters that the trend is a good one for the Warriors.
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There are plenty of those, too, yes. But most of us who cite the Coach Ks and Jay Wrights and KOs are the more optimistic types here on Scoop. We want Wojo to succeed and we think he deserves the same chance ... especially since it is obvious to all but the real haters that the trend is a good one for the Warriors.
I don't cite those guys because I'm an optimist, but rather because I think the cost of starting over is too high. Say we miss the tourney this year and fire Wojo, what happens? Here's my fear:
- Stan Johnson goes west: When MU refuses to give him the head job, he instead lands at Washington and retains key recruit Michael Porter.
- Transfers galore: Duane Wilson and Andrew Rowsey both leave as grad transfers. Markus Howard follows Stan to Washington. Sam Hauser gives the new coach a chance, but with a severe talent drop-off, he leaves for Virginia in December.
- Recruiting class lost: Theo John and Jamal Cain both go elsewhere. Ike Eke stays but isn't nearly ready, however a lack of depth forces him to start until Froling is available.
- Wojo to Georgetown: JTIII misses the tournament for the third time in four years and is fired. Wojo takes their job, getting closer to home. He keeps Tremont Waters and the current roster intact, leading the Hoyas to a NCAA berth his first year before landing a top-10 recruiting class in 2018, headlined by Joey Hauser, David McCormack, and TJ Moss.
- Marquette stagnates: The new coach takes over a threadbare roster with Cheatham, Hauser, Heldt, Froling, and Anim the only returning scholarship players. Ike Eke and Philip Flory highlight the recrutiing class, but neither are ready to contribute at this level. The team is worse than 2014-15 and Hauser leaves as a mid-season transfer. We land a grad transfer, but not close to the level of Carlino. We spend our first two years looking up in the standings at DePaul, St. John's, and a resurgent Georgetown squad.
Any changeover at this point would lead to mass departures and a depleted roster. It would lead to starting over from both a talent and recruiting perspective. It would have us chasing grad transfers just to cobble a viable roster together. How is any of that good?
We saw it with Buzz, when recruits departed and players were kicked off the team only to be begged to return later. We saw it with Wojo, where Buzz may have left "Seven top-100 recruits", but three of those were Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, and Sandy Cohen, and another wouldn't make it to the new year on the roster (Burton).
Maybe Wojo will succeed. Maybe he won't. But now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We went from an abysmal 2015 to a 20-win 2016 to a likely NCAA berth in 2017. We're clearly getting better. We're not where we want to be, but you have to walk before you can run and I sure as hell enjoy watching this team more than I did that 2015 wreck (and frankly, more than Buzz's last team in 2014).
I don't want next year to be worse than 2 years ago, which would almost undoubtedly happen if we changed course. If Wojo doesn't get over the hump, you make the change when we haven't yet made a tournament after a year in the new arena. If he can't get there with Cheatham, Howard, and Hauser as upperclassmen, along with the added talent and a potential big 2018 recruiting class, then by all means, start looking. But that's not today. That's a question for two years from now.
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Brew, all great points. There is no reason to even think Wojo is in any trouble right now, or even if the team falls on its face the next 10 games. Can MU do better?
Not sure, it is really hard to get free agents to the Bucks or even the Pack, so recruiting MU is not easy either. The new arena is going to be the best selling point
for WOJO the next 2 years and 2018 will be a critical recruiting year. He might already have 2 in his head, so he needs to find one other. If he can not do that, there
might be an issue moving forward then.
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Recruiting so that Marquette can be a solid, competitive basketball team with regular NCAA appearances is completely doable. At the elite level? No, but the only way you do that is to start winning at an elite level.
And recruiting free agents to the Bucks and the Packers isn't hard either if you have the $$ and the chance at winning titles. For years people have used this excuse and that's all it really is.
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Recruiting so that Marquette can be a solid, competitive basketball team with regular NCAA appearances is completely doable. At the elite level? No, but the only way you do that is to start winning at an elite level.
And recruiting free agents to the Bucks and the Packers isn't hard either if you have the $$ and the chance at winning titles. For years people have used this excuse and that's all it really is.
Great point. Remember when most folks believed the Pack would never compete again and that minority players wouldn't come? Reggie and winning changed a lot. It's now one of the handful of places any football player would love to be.
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Great point. Remember when most folks believed the Pack would never compete again and that minority players wouldn't come? Reggie and winning changed a lot. It's now one of the handful of places any football player would love to be.
If Green Bay would ever try to sign some...
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If Green Bay would ever try to sign some...
Exactly, they sure seem to gravitate to New England. He wants to win every year and seems to be able to fill easier than the Pack. I do believe there is a difference
in GB, if you are a single person, do you want to go to a bigger city or GB? Pack have to over pay to get some free agents to GB, plus easier if they are married. Then
you have Ted....
The Bucks, name me a free agent in the upper tier that wants to come here?? Let's see if Parker wants to stay her in the future.
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I don't cite those guys because I'm an optimist, but rather because I think the cost of starting over is too high. Say we miss the tourney this year and fire Wojo, what happens? Here's my fear:
- Stan Johnson goes west: When MU refuses to give him the head job, he instead lands at Washington and retains key recruit Michael Porter.
- Transfers galore: Duane Wilson and Andrew Rowsey both leave as grad transfers. Markus Howard follows Stan to Washington. Sam Hauser gives the new coach a chance, but with a severe talent drop-off, he leaves for Virginia in December.
- Recruiting class lost: Theo John and Jamal Cain both go elsewhere. Ike Eke stays but isn't nearly ready, however a lack of depth forces him to start until Froling is available.
- Wojo to Georgetown: JTIII misses the tournament for the third time in four years and is fired. Wojo takes their job, getting closer to home. He keeps Tremont Waters and the current roster intact, leading the Hoyas to a NCAA berth his first year before landing a top-10 recruiting class in 2018, headlined by Joey Hauser, David McCormack, and TJ Moss.
- Marquette stagnates: The new coach takes over a threadbare roster with Cheatham, Hauser, Heldt, Froling, and Anim the only returning scholarship players. Ike Eke and Philip Flory highlight the recrutiing class, but neither are ready to contribute at this level. The team is worse than 2014-15 and Hauser leaves as a mid-season transfer. We land a grad transfer, but not close to the level of Carlino. We spend our first two years looking up in the standings at DePaul, St. John's, and a resurgent Georgetown squad.
Any changeover at this point would lead to mass departures and a depleted roster. It would lead to starting over from both a talent and recruiting perspective. It would have us chasing grad transfers just to cobble a viable roster together. How is any of that good?
We saw it with Buzz, when recruits departed and players were kicked off the team only to be begged to return later. We saw it with Wojo, where Buzz may have left "Seven top-100 recruits", but three of those were Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, and Sandy Cohen, and another wouldn't make it to the new year on the roster (Burton).
Maybe Wojo will succeed. Maybe he won't. But now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We went from an abysmal 2015 to a 20-win 2016 to a likely NCAA berth in 2017. We're clearly getting better. We're not where we want to be, but you have to walk before you can run and I sure as hell enjoy watching this team more than I did that 2015 wreck (and frankly, more than Buzz's last team in 2014).
I don't want next year to be worse than 2 years ago, which would almost undoubtedly happen if we changed course. If Wojo doesn't get over the hump, you make the change when we haven't yet made a tournament after a year in the new arena. If he can't get there with Cheatham, Howard, and Hauser as upperclassmen, along with the added talent and a potential big 2018 recruiting class, then by all means, start looking. But that's not today. That's a question for two years from now.
Realistic, well-laid-out and calmly presented.
Nicely done, brew.
Now, as some Scoopers like to say ... Wojo better win tonight!
(And then, as I like to say, "or else what?")
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Exactly, they sure seem to gravitate to New England. He wants to win every year and seems to be able to fill easier than the Pack. I do believe there is a difference
in GB, if you are a single person, do you want to go to a bigger city or GB? Pack have to over pay to get some free agents to GB, plus easier if they are married. Then
you have Ted....
My point is that the Packers don't try to sign them. But when they do, they come to Green Bay if they get paid and/or have a chance to win a title. Reggie White, Ryan Pickett, Charles Woodson, etc.
Remember these guys don't live in Green Bay. They come here to work a limited career. Would they prefer a big city? Perhaps. But they aren't turning down lucrative contracts to play in New York for less money.
If the Bucks start winning and compete for titles, free agents will come to Milwaukee.
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I don't cite those guys because I'm an optimist, but rather because I think the cost of starting over is too high. Say we miss the tourney this year and fire Wojo, what happens? Here's my fear:
I know you love doing these random story deals, but Wojo isn't getting fired. You know that, I know that. I think he has at least two more years of missing the tourney, before the admin seriously considers moving on. It would be such a set back at this point.
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I don't cite those guys because I'm an optimist, but rather because I think the cost of starting over is too high. Say we miss the tourney this year and fire Wojo, what happens? Here's my fear:
- Stan Johnson goes west: When MU refuses to give him the head job, he instead lands at Washington and retains key recruit Michael Porter.
- Transfers galore: Duane Wilson and Andrew Rowsey both leave as grad transfers. Markus Howard follows Stan to Washington. Sam Hauser gives the new coach a chance, but with a severe talent drop-off, he leaves for Virginia in December.
- Recruiting class lost: Theo John and Jamal Cain both go elsewhere. Ike Eke stays but isn't nearly ready, however a lack of depth forces him to start until Froling is available.
- Wojo to Georgetown: JTIII misses the tournament for the third time in four years and is fired. Wojo takes their job, getting closer to home. He keeps Tremont Waters and the current roster intact, leading the Hoyas to a NCAA berth his first year before landing a top-10 recruiting class in 2018, headlined by Joey Hauser, David McCormack, and TJ Moss.
- Marquette stagnates: The new coach takes over a threadbare roster with Cheatham, Hauser, Heldt, Froling, and Anim the only returning scholarship players. Ike Eke and Philip Flory highlight the recrutiing class, but neither are ready to contribute at this level. The team is worse than 2014-15 and Hauser leaves as a mid-season transfer. We land a grad transfer, but not close to the level of Carlino. We spend our first two years looking up in the standings at DePaul, St. John's, and a resurgent Georgetown squad.
Any changeover at this point would lead to mass departures and a depleted roster. It would lead to starting over from both a talent and recruiting perspective. It would have us chasing grad transfers just to cobble a viable roster together. How is any of that good?
We saw it with Buzz, when recruits departed and players were kicked off the team only to be begged to return later. We saw it with Wojo, where Buzz may have left "Seven top-100 recruits", but three of those were Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, and Sandy Cohen, and another wouldn't make it to the new year on the roster (Burton).
Maybe Wojo will succeed. Maybe he won't. But now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We went from an abysmal 2015 to a 20-win 2016 to a likely NCAA berth in 2017. We're clearly getting better. We're not where we want to be, but you have to walk before you can run and I sure as hell enjoy watching this team more than I did that 2015 wreck (and frankly, more than Buzz's last team in 2014).
I don't want next year to be worse than 2 years ago, which would almost undoubtedly happen if we changed course. If Wojo doesn't get over the hump, you make the change when we haven't yet made a tournament after a year in the new arena. If he can't get there with Cheatham, Howard, and Hauser as upperclassmen, along with the added talent and a potential big 2018 recruiting class, then by all means, start looking. But that's not today. That's a question for two years from now.
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I don't cite those guys because I'm an optimist, but rather because I think the cost of starting over is too high. Say we miss the tourney this year and fire Wojo, what happens? Here's my fear:
- Stan Johnson goes west: When MU refuses to give him the head job, he instead lands at Washington and retains key recruit Michael Porter.
- Transfers galore: Duane Wilson and Andrew Rowsey both leave as grad transfers. Markus Howard follows Stan to Washington. Sam Hauser gives the new coach a chance, but with a severe talent drop-off, he leaves for Virginia in December.
- Recruiting class lost: Theo John and Jamal Cain both go elsewhere. Ike Eke stays but isn't nearly ready, however a lack of depth forces him to start until Froling is available.
- Wojo to Georgetown: JTIII misses the tournament for the third time in four years and is fired. Wojo takes their job, getting closer to home. He keeps Tremont Waters and the current roster intact, leading the Hoyas to a NCAA berth his first year before landing a top-10 recruiting class in 2018, headlined by Joey Hauser, David McCormack, and TJ Moss.
- Marquette stagnates: The new coach takes over a threadbare roster with Cheatham, Hauser, Heldt, Froling, and Anim the only returning scholarship players. Ike Eke and Philip Flory highlight the recrutiing class, but neither are ready to contribute at this level. The team is worse than 2014-15 and Hauser leaves as a mid-season transfer. We land a grad transfer, but not close to the level of Carlino. We spend our first two years looking up in the standings at DePaul, St. John's, and a resurgent Georgetown squad.
Any changeover at this point would lead to mass departures and a depleted roster. It would lead to starting over from both a talent and recruiting perspective. It would have us chasing grad transfers just to cobble a viable roster together. How is any of that good?
We saw it with Buzz, when recruits departed and players were kicked off the team only to be begged to return later. We saw it with Wojo, where Buzz may have left "Seven top-100 recruits", but three of those were Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, and Sandy Cohen, and another wouldn't make it to the new year on the roster (Burton).
Maybe Wojo will succeed. Maybe he won't. But now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We went from an abysmal 2015 to a 20-win 2016 to a likely NCAA berth in 2017. We're clearly getting better. We're not where we want to be, but you have to walk before you can run and I sure as hell enjoy watching this team more than I did that 2015 wreck (and frankly, more than Buzz's last team in 2014).
I don't want next year to be worse than 2 years ago, which would almost undoubtedly happen if we changed course. If Wojo doesn't get over the hump, you make the change when we haven't yet made a tournament after a year in the new arena. If he can't get there with Cheatham, Howard, and Hauser as upperclassmen, along with the added talent and a potential big 2018 recruiting class, then by all means, start looking. But that's not today. That's a question for two years from now.
Quite the imagination there. You could make a great career as a novelist, or damn, a reality show script writer. Very good.
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I don't cite those guys because I'm an optimist, but rather because I think the cost of starting over is too high. Say we miss the tourney this year and fire Wojo, what happens? Here's my fear:
- Stan Johnson goes west: When MU refuses to give him the head job, he instead lands at Washington and retains key recruit Michael Porter.
- Transfers galore: Duane Wilson and Andrew Rowsey both leave as grad transfers. Markus Howard follows Stan to Washington. Sam Hauser gives the new coach a chance, but with a severe talent drop-off, he leaves for Virginia in December.
- Recruiting class lost: Theo John and Jamal Cain both go elsewhere. Ike Eke stays but isn't nearly ready, however a lack of depth forces him to start until Froling is available.
- Wojo to Georgetown: JTIII misses the tournament for the third time in four years and is fired. Wojo takes their job, getting closer to home. He keeps Tremont Waters and the current roster intact, leading the Hoyas to a NCAA berth his first year before landing a top-10 recruiting class in 2018, headlined by Joey Hauser, David McCormack, and TJ Moss.
- Marquette stagnates: The new coach takes over a threadbare roster with Cheatham, Hauser, Heldt, Froling, and Anim the only returning scholarship players. Ike Eke and Philip Flory highlight the recrutiing class, but neither are ready to contribute at this level. The team is worse than 2014-15 and Hauser leaves as a mid-season transfer. We land a grad transfer, but not close to the level of Carlino. We spend our first two years looking up in the standings at DePaul, St. John's, and a resurgent Georgetown squad.
Any changeover at this point would lead to mass departures and a depleted roster. It would lead to starting over from both a talent and recruiting perspective. It would have us chasing grad transfers just to cobble a viable roster together. How is any of that good?
We saw it with Buzz, when recruits departed and players were kicked off the team only to be begged to return later. We saw it with Wojo, where Buzz may have left "Seven top-100 recruits", but three of those were Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, and Sandy Cohen, and another wouldn't make it to the new year on the roster (Burton).
Maybe Wojo will succeed. Maybe he won't. But now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We went from an abysmal 2015 to a 20-win 2016 to a likely NCAA berth in 2017. We're clearly getting better. We're not where we want to be, but you have to walk before you can run and I sure as hell enjoy watching this team more than I did that 2015 wreck (and frankly, more than Buzz's last team in 2014).
I don't want next year to be worse than 2 years ago, which would almost undoubtedly happen if we changed course. If Wojo doesn't get over the hump, you make the change when we haven't yet made a tournament after a year in the new arena. If he can't get there with Cheatham, Howard, and Hauser as upperclassmen, along with the added talent and a potential big 2018 recruiting class, then by all means, start looking. But that's not today. That's a question for two years from now.
Like I've said elsewhere, I think Wojo's has turned the corner. But if one reasonably expects he's NEVER going anywhere, you absolutely make the change as quickly as possible. Sunk costs and all.
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There are plenty of those, too, yes. But most of us who cite the Coach Ks and Jay Wrights and KOs are the more optimistic types here on Scoop. We want Wojo to succeed and we think he deserves the same chance ... especially since it is obvious to all but the real haters that the trend is a good one for the Warriors.
I am a "cautiously optimistic" type on Wojo. There has been progress. Sometimes with steps back along the way. I just don't know yet if we will ever get where we want to be.
An analogy. I think we are about halfway through the marathon. He doesn't look as good as other runners, but I think he's going to finish.
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Can't go a couple weeks outout someone posting an example of a new coach struggling for X years, then doing well.
Curious, how about examples of new coaches who struggled for X years, then kept struggling and was fired?
nobody comes to mind. /snark
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I know you love doing these random story deals, but Wojo isn't getting fired. You know that, I know that. I think he has at least two more years of missing the tourney, before the admin seriously considers moving on. It would be such a set back at this point.
He's not going anywhere, but anyone that thinks we'd be better off if he did is crazy. The best case scenario would be turning our timetable back 3 years.
I've no idea if we have a long term answer in Wojo, but we certainly wouldn't find out by changing course at this point. It's just silly to even consider.
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Exactly, they sure seem to gravitate to New England. He wants to win every year and seems to be able to fill easier than the Pack. I do believe there is a difference
in GB, if you are a single person, do you want to go to a bigger city or GB? Pack have to over pay to get some free agents to GB, plus easier if they are married. Then
you have Ted....
The Bucks, name me a free agent in the upper tier that wants to come here?? Let's see if Parker wants to stay her in the future.
They just signed one of the biggest free agents on the market 2 years ago.
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I am a "cautiously optimistic" type on Wojo. There has been progress. Sometimes with steps back along the way. I just don't know yet if we will ever get where we want some Scoopers think MU deserves to be.
The struck and bold parts are an issue that I see in some people's perception of the program's direction. Programs don't deserve to be powerhouses just because of a successful decade 40 years ago. MU will likely never reach the "perennial Top-10 program" status that some believe should be the case. You can't skyrocket to the mountain top, build a mansion, and live there forever.
Maybe its a life cycle thing, older fans experienced the highest level of success and want it back before its too late. I'm a little younger and willing to have more patience in a slower, sustained rise to year after year success.
An analogy. I think we are about halfway through the marathon. He doesn't look as good as other runners, but I think he's going to finish.
What are you defining as "the finish line"?
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Give me top 25 (or receiving votes) every week and a tourney birth and I'll be happy.
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Give me top 25 (or receiving votes) every week and a tourney birth and I'll be happy.
Give me an annual tournament berth, the second best record of any NCAA team over the next 10 years, a national championship and a national runner-up and I'll be happy.
I come from an era where that was the norm. I agree that you CANNOT wish yourself elite status. You earn it.
You earn it by doing what Wojo has done. You recruit well and learn to coach effectively. The recruits and the wins build on each other until we become a destination address for four and five star recruits.
If you begin by saying, "we're in Milwaukee," or "we'll never be good again," then I promise you won't be. Period.
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Give me an annual tournament berth, the second best record of any NCAA team over the next 10 years, a national championship and a national runner-up and I'll be happy.
I come from an era where that was the norm. I agree that you CANNOT wish yourself elite status. You earn it.
You earn it by doing what Wojo has done. You recruit well and learn to coach effectively. The recruits and the wins build on each other until we become a destination address for four and five star recruits.
If you begin by saying, "we're in Milwaukee," or "we'll never be good again," then I promise you won't be. Period.
Oh I definitely know we will be good again. But I also understand that looking at the standings, no team is in the top 25 weekly (Kentucky a few years ago lost in the first round of the NIT, Duke has dropped from the top 25 and lost a few years ago in the first round to Lehigh).
I get you have lofty expectations and I LOVE that. But as much as I am very optimistic when it comes to MUBB and I get frustrated with every loss because I always hope for 30-0, I also know well enough that teams lose.
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They just signed one of the biggest free agents on the market 2 years ago.
Are you serious about Greg Monroe??? Lets see if he makes it a 3rd year.
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Are you serious about Greg Monroe??? Lets see if he makes it a 3rd year.
That doesn't change the fact that he was one of the biggest free agents on the market and chose Milwaukee over New York City and Los Angeles...
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That doesn't change the fact that he was one of the biggest free agents on the market and chose Milwaukee over New York City and Los Angeles...
And the fact the Bucks inked Giannis to a 4 year extension. And the fact the new CBA almost guarantees that top guys stay with their teams.
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It was a comment by Al in which he equated race to athleticism which was acceptable back then but isn't now.
So I guess the Movie White Men can't Jump would be re-titled to
Selected Basketball Players Are Vertically Challenged
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Give me an annual tournament berth, the second best record of any NCAA team over the next 10 years, a national championship and a national runner-up and I'll be happy.
I come from an era where that was the norm. I agree that you CANNOT wish yourself elite status. You earn it.
You earn it by doing what Wojo has done. You recruit well and learn to coach effectively. The recruits and the wins build on each other until we become a destination address for four and five star recruits.
If you begin by saying, "we're in Milwaukee," or "we'll never be good again," then I promise you won't be. Period.
Well seeing as that happened once it cannot be "the norm"
If we're slightly better than 01 to 2013 (10/12 NCAA 2 NIT, 1FF, 1E8, 2S16) then I'll be happy and we'll be considered one of if not the best catholic bball team.
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So I guess the Movie White Men can't Jump would be re-titled to
Selected Basketball Players Are Vertically Challenged
I've never actually seen the movie which is a shame I know. But isn't about a white basketball player who hustles black men in basketball because they assume he can't play because he's white? It seems like the movie is about challenging that mindset...but again haven't seen the movie so I could be wrong
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I've never actually seen the movie which is a shame I know. But isn't about a white basketball player who hustles black men in basketball because they assume he can't play because he's white? It seems like the movie is about challenging that mindset...but again haven't seen the movie so I could be wrong
It is a shame, well worth the time.
The simple truth is just because Al said something 4 decades ago doesn't make it acceptable today any more than any other things that were once not considered racist but now are. Once upon a time, blackface was acceptable in film, picaninnys were acceptable marketing tools, and slavery was an acceptable form of providing a labor force. Just because that was once acceptable doesn't make it so today.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm sick and tired of how we revere everything Al said as gospel. Al said plenty of great things and gave us plenty of great quotes, but that doesn't mean we should embrace everything he said as currently relevant and acceptable. I love the memories we have of Al McGuire, I love what he did for Marquette, but there's a difference between 1960s and 70s social mores and 2010s social mores. It shouldn't be that hard to adjust our mannerisms appropriately.
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So I guess the Movie White Men can't Jump would be re-titled to
Selected Basketball Players Are Vertically Challenged
*Traditional
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It is a shame, well worth the time.
The simple truth is just because Al said something 4 decades ago doesn't make it acceptable today any more than any other things that were once not considered racist but now are. Once upon a time, blackface was acceptable in film, picaninnys were acceptable marketing tools, and slavery was an acceptable form of providing a labor force. Just because that was once acceptable doesn't make it so today.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm sick and tired of how we revere everything Al said as gospel. Al said plenty of great things and gave us plenty of great quotes, but that doesn't mean we should embrace everything he said as currently relevant and acceptable. I love the memories we have of Al McGuire, I love what he did for Marquette, but there's a difference between 1960s and 70s social mores and 2010s social mores. It shouldn't be that hard to adjust our mannerisms appropriately.
And Al would be the first to agree.
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The simple truth is just because Al said something 4 decades ago doesn't make it acceptable today any more than any other things that were once not considered racist but now are. Once upon a time, blackface was acceptable in film, picaninnys were acceptable marketing tools, and slavery was an acceptable form of providing a labor force. Just because that was once acceptable doesn't make it so today.
When we get back to all that good fun from the '50s, '60s and '70s, we'll be making America great again!
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When we get back to all that good fun from the '50s, '60s and '70s, we'll be making America great again!
Woodstock, free love, lsd, man perms, and polyester leisure suits?
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I do.
Where we're going is good to great and while the jury is still out, the facts are clear. Just to remind everyone:
1) Wojo inherited seven scholarship players on his first team. The kids played hard and lost several games because they ran out of gas. Period.
2) His second team included a Top 10 recruiting class. It won 20 games on a weak schedule.
3) His third team may well make the NCAA tournament. As I have said before, if Henry had stayed one more year, we probably would be a Top 15 and maybe a Top 10 team.
4) His fourth team is on the road to filling out many of the weaknesses we currently have.
Look, the guys are "getting it" and beginning to do it. I have no way of knowing, but the fact that Wojo sat by Coach K for nearly two decades and waiting until the Marquette offer arose, says volumes about how we are still regarded. If he performs here -- and I think he will -- there will be a place for him at Marquette and I'm going to state for the record that Marquette will be his kind of place.
Just remember one thing about Duke: It's a National powerhouse and commends the attention of coaches that would never think of moving. Short of perhaps Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, Slick Rick and John Calipari, there isn't a coach in the country who would not jump at the chance to coach at Duke. Short of a national championship banner hanging in the Milwaukee Bucks Center, I don't see Coach Wojo being a top pick for Duke. Too many schools have gone down the slippery slope of decline by staying too close to their family tree instead of looking at the total of what's out there. I just don't see Duke doing that (See: Raymonds, Hank; Guthridge, Bill; or, Thompson III, John for starters).
I'm in the same boat as you. But I'm not certain Wojo takes K's job even if offered it. I remember him saying something about going to a school and making it your "Duke".
It's just crazy how this board constantly goes from calling for pitchforks or to tar/feather Wojo, to the next day deathly afraid he may leave us.
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It's just crazy how this board constantly goes from calling for pitchforks or to tar/feather Wojo, to the next day deathly afraid he may leave us.
I love this.
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I'm in the same boat as you. But I'm not certain Wojo takes K's job even if offered it. I remember him saying something about going to a school and making it your "Duke".
It's just crazy how this board constantly goes from calling for pitchforks or to tar/feather Wojo, to the next day deathly afraid he may leave us.
Normal Scoop, hey?
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I'm in the same boat as you. But I'm not certain Wojo takes K's job even if offered it. I remember him saying something about going to a school and making it your "Duke".
It's just crazy how this board constantly goes from calling for pitchforks or to tar/feather Wojo, to the next day deathly afraid he may leave us.
So true. I hope Wojo is here for the long term, and as you said, he's made comments that would lead you to believe he wants to build his. I'm not gonna stress about him bouncing, nor should anyone else, even when other nice jobs eventually become available to him.
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Can we stop with the "What if we..." threads and just let the process play out? What if we beat Nova and Providence, are we ranked? Well, let's do it and see. What if we don't get swept by anyone? Well, that'd be awesome. But it's not happening.
Respect the process. Let's discuss if we actually accomplish some of these feats. Until then, it doesn't matter.
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So far Wojo's teams are inconsistent at best and mediocre at worst. Not sold on the guy regardless of who he's got on his roster. Needs to coach them up. These guys play stupid. Howard and Hauser appear to be catching the dumbness
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until wojo proves he can build a team that can play defense and consistently win, i'm not the least bit worried about losing him (and really wouldn't even be sad to see him go). also, there is no way he is even close to being ready for the duke job, unless he is going back to being an assistant again.
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Chrabacz 8-11, simply layups. At least he can make a layup
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Yes, respect the process. The process of a mid-major, Butler owning us in the BEast.
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I dont blame this on wojo one bit. Most of our turnovers were absolutely stupid passes. And then we missed 6-7 truly uncontested layups and miss fts late. Thats 100% about mental toughness. Ive said it before our seniors exhibit none of it. When it comes to winning time our seniors choke. You can dissect the roster all u want n say we wont be better next year... We will our younger players have some toughness, our seniors are chokers
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I dont blame this on wojo one bit. Most of our turnovers were absolutely stupid passes. And then we missed 6-7 truly uncontested layups and miss fts late. Thats 100% about mental toughness. Ive said it before our seniors exhibit none of it. When it comes to winning time our seniors choke. You can dissect the roster all u want n say we wont be better next year... We will our younger players have some toughness, our seniors are chokers
Luke (a senior) is the only player that showed up tonight.
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Luke carried the team tonight.
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So far Wojo's teams are inconsistent at best and mediocre at worst. Not sold on the guy regardless of who he's got on his roster. Needs to coach them up. These guys play stupid. Howard and Hauser appear to be catching the dumbness
Counterpoint. They are freshman and other teams have scouted them up and are exploiting their weaknesses.
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I dont blame this on wojo one bit. Most of our turnovers were absolutely stupid passes. And then we missed 6-7 truly uncontested layups and miss fts late. Thats 100% about mental toughness. Ive said it before our seniors exhibit none of it. When it comes to winning time our seniors choke. You can dissect the roster all u want n say we wont be better next year... We will our younger players have some toughness, our seniors are chokers
What 6-7 truly untested layups did we miss?
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What 6-7 truly untested layups did we miss?
We missed a few bunnies. But most teams do.
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Defense.
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What 6-7 truly untested layups did we miss?
Why engage with the troll? Nothing you say is going to have the slightest impact. This is an Alternative Facts guy, and no verifiable fact is going to matter to him. Luke having another double-double and having twice as many SOTG's as anyone else are just conspiracies of the liberal media.