Crean vs Buzz vs Wojo vs Shaka

[tower912]

Why not?   And hopefully the women's basketball thread can get back to, you know, MU women's basketball.


Yay, coaches.

I arrived at MU 40 years ago.   My ranking of MU coaches in that time frame...
8. Dukiet
7.Majerus.  Not a genius while at MU.
6. Deane
5. Wojo
4. KO
3. Crean
2. Buzz
1. Shaka

[Shooter McGavin]

I concur on the order of best to worst coaches.

[Zog from Margo]

The title of the thread confused me a bit because I was not sure how Wojo would be mentioned in that group. That said, I pretty much agree with your ranking. I might give Majerus an incomplete since he was not an HC for long. Based on his actual tenure at MU though, I can't argue with your ranking.

Wojo and Deane are a push for me. Wojo could recruit guys he targeted but had no vision as to how he wanted to play and was far from great at actual coaching. Deane couldn't recruit but was a better at actual coaching than Wojo. (I know one "knowledgeable" fan who claimed the Wojo staff was the best since Al. Yikes.)

Crean got to the FF but Shaka and Buzz are better coaches.

There is a pretty good deal of separation between Shaka and the others in my mind when considering everything.

[tower912]

Wojo and Deane are nearly a push for me, too.   Big difference is that Deane did not recruit like he was trying to raise MU up.  Along with his idea that MU should be content with the NIT with an occasional NCAA run.   Also not a fan of using all of the timeouts early.   But, he generally knew the score.

[Johnny B]

You are like excessively positive/optimistic on any situation imaginable that this program could be in.
Good for you sir

[tower912]

Yes, I am.   


I am interested in how you would rank those 8 coaches.

[HutchwasClutch]

Buzz
Crean
Shaka
KO
Deane
Wojo
Majerus
Dukiet

Buzz and Crean with a slight edge over Shaka with Crean’s FF and Buzz’s 3 straight NCAA 2nd weekends, including an E8.  Plus their sustained level of success and graduating guys to the NBA.  Shaka could get there, but he isn’t there yet all around.  May not be entirely fair after just 3 seasons, but the question is how do they rank today. Shaka’s conference regular season and tournament championships in same season get him close to them. 

KO’s tenure is underrated I think.  He’s close to the top 3.  But I think that speaks more to what top 3 accomplished.   But KO resuscitated this program and left the cupboard well stocked for Deane.

Deane over Wojo because he at least had a clue coaching and getting a team to playing its best ball at end of season multiple years (95-97).  Wojo is only fairly close to him because he did bring in better talent. 

Rick is one of my all time favorites, but MU years were so ordinary in every way his 3 years.

Dukiet- obvious. 

[HutchwasClutch]

Add to my post I am highly skeptical that any of TKO, Oso, and O-Max will achieve anywhere near the level of NBA success of Butler. Wes, Novak, and of course Dwyane. 

[Efficient Frontier]

I think this will ultimately be the order of things, but Crean and Buzz jump Shaka for their post season success.

[Badgerhater]

Crean—he put MU back on the map as a program with FF, entry into BE, getting the Al built.  Probably knows now that I4 was a mistake.

Buzz—Big BE title, very good three season NCAA run.  It was fun until it wasn’t.

Shaka—incomplete and could go up or down but all trends are positive.  Will pass Buzz soon.

KO—brought MU back from basket purgatory.  Thank you.

Deane—very good in-game coach, CUSA tourney title.  But that was really boring basketball.

Wojo—nice guy who couldn’t coach in a game or make players into a team.

Majerus—wrong place, wrong time

Dukiet—could play the piano

[Badgerhater]

.

[Johnny B]

Can only really rank the guys I was able to watch but
3. Wojo
2. Shaka
1. Buzz
 Shaka could jump to one with a few more good seasons or a final four

[Jockey]

Tower, it’s always hard for me to rank coaches since I would rank them on just coaching ability rather than recruiting, management, etc.

For total picture, I think your rating is pretty spot on. For just coaching, my ranking would be much different.

[tower912]

I get that.  Deane was a tremendous game coach in an era of a longer shot clock who did not recruit at a high level.  Would succeed even less today.   But he could manage a game.

[WhiteTrash]

I get that.  Deane was a tremendous game coach in an era of a longer shot clock who did not recruit at a high level.  Would succeed even less today.   But he could manage a game.

Deane was a very good game coach. I was at the game versus Sant Clara and Deane had McCaskill guard Steve Nash. Brilliant move, Nash got only about 10pts and MU won.

[MU82]

Tower, it’s always hard for me to rank coaches since I would rank them on just coaching ability rather than recruiting, management, etc.

For total picture, I think your rating is pretty spot on. For just coaching, my ranking would be much different.

Except that recruiting is most important of all. That's my opinion, though I don't know how anybody could opine that it's less important.

That Deane didn't aspire to greatness and that he failed completely after KO's talent left puts him behind Wojo, who went to the NCAAT 3 out of 4 years (counting Covid season) before the final flameout.

I agree with tower's order ... except that I was around for Hank, whom I would rank behind KO but obviously ahead of Wojo.

I completely understand those who are putting Shaka behind coaches who went S16-S16-E8 and/or FF, thereby giving Shaka an "incomplete." I'm going with Shaka #1 today because I think he is the best all-around coach of all of them - vision for program, player development, game management, recruiting, motivating, style of play, community involvement, etc.

But I fully recognize that 3 of Shaka's 4 best players so far weren't even his recruits (nor was his best player in his first season) - though he did have to "re-recruit them" - and also that he's only won 3 NCAAT games in 3 years. So sure, there could be some recency bias and simply "I like this person best" in my ranking.

[tower912]

Thanks for the Hank reference.  I should have made it the semi annual 'Best coach since Al' thread.

[mugrad_89]

As someone whose time as a MU student coincided with the Dukiet debacle, I’d rank him even lower if I could.

[tower912]

Add to my post I am highly skeptical that any of TKO, Oso, and O-Max will achieve anywhere near the level of NBA success of Butler. Wes, Novak, and of course Dwyane.

But they will play in the league.   I hope they all can have the longevity of Novak.  His actual career wasn't all that.   But he was there for a while and had a couple of nice stretches.
I think they will all last longer than Buycks. I suspect longer than Juan, too.   I look forward to watching.

[tower912]

As someone whose time as a MU student coincided with the Dukiet debacle, I’d rank him even lower if I could.

If only.

[RubyWiscy]

Unfortunately, I attended MU during the Dukiet years. MU did not beat Notre Dame once in 8 tries. A shame I will never be able to be rid of or forgive. And yes, it was that important in those days.

[WarriorFan]

Re-using or paraphrasing some earlier comments, but in my order:

Shaka—incomplete but all the right things happening.  Already on top in my book

Crean—he put MU back on the map as a program with FF, entry into BE, getting the Al built.  Probably knows now that I4 was a mistake.  Had he stayed could have had it for a good, long time.  He now knows his ambitions were greater than his skills. 

Buzz—Big BE title, very good three season NCAA run. Was never sustainable.  Too much dysfunction.

KO—Was never going to stay, but fit MU perfectly at the time and had he not had such lofty ambitions could have been "the guy".

Majerus—wrong place, wrong time, big shadow, shoes too big to fill.  Somebody had to follow Al, noone was ever going to be Al.

Dukiet / Wojo / Deane - the dark days of MU basketball.  Dukiet was not serious and not very good, Wojo was just bad at everything, and Deane would have been a great assistant but never a head coach. 

[Lennys Tap]

Shaka
Buzz
KO
Crean
Deane
Wojo
Dukiet

Incomplete for Majerus

If you add Al and Hank, Al is #1 and Hank comes after Crean.

[mileskishnish72]

Got to MU in ‘68 so I've got a different number one. The original list is pretty good, agree with most all of what Hutch and 82 said.

[Viper]

Buzz
Crean
Shaka
KO
Deane
Wojo
Majerus
Dukiet

Buzz and Crean with a slight edge over Shaka with Crean’s FF and Buzz’s 3 straight NCAA 2nd weekends, including an E8.  Plus their sustained level of success and graduating guys to the NBA.  Shaka could get there, but he isn’t there yet all around.  May not be entirely fair after just 3 seasons, but the question is how do they rank today. Shaka’s conference regular season and tournament championships in same season get him close to them. 

KO’s tenure is underrated I think.  He’s close to the top 3.  But I think that speaks more to what top 3 accomplished.   But KO resuscitated this program and left the cupboard well stocked for Deane.

Deane over Wojo because he at least had a clue coaching and getting a team to playing its best ball at end of season multiple years (95-97).  Wojo is only fairly close to him because he did bring in better talent. 

Rick is one of my all time favorites, but MU years were so ordinary in every way his 3 years.

Dukiet- obvious.

your order is my order, and agreed on why.
(btw and imo, if MU had paid KO, he’d have taken MU to a F4…although he seemed to have a nomadic soul. Majerus? Shirtless on Schroeder beach…yikes. Wojo is a great guy..too bad it didn’t work out)

[Viper]

Re-using or paraphrasing some earlier comments, but in my order:

Shaka—incomplete but all the right things happening.  Already on top in my book

Crean—he put MU back on the map as a program with FF, entry into BE, getting the Al built.  Probably knows now that I4 was a mistake.  Had he stayed could have had it for a good, long time.  He now knows his ambitions were greater than his skills. 

Buzz—Big BE title, very good three season NCAA run. Was never sustainable.  Too much dysfunction.

KO—Was never going to stay, but fit MU perfectly at the time and had he not had such lofty ambitions could have been "the guy".

Majerus—wrong place, wrong time, big shadow, shoes too big to fill.  Somebody had to follow Al, noone was ever going to be Al.

Dukiet / Wojo / Deane - the dark days of MU basketball.  Dukiet was not serious and not very good, Wojo was just bad at everything, and Deane would have been a great assistant but never a head coach.

Wojo could recruit. Gets pts from me for beating #1 ‘Nova and rep’ing MU at a high level off court…but yeah, coaching wasn’t there.

[wadesworld]

your order is my order, and agreed on why.
(btw and imo, if MU had paid KO, he’d have taken MU to a F4…although he seemed to have a nomadic soul. Majerus? Shirtless on Schroeder beach…yikes. Wojo is a great guy..too bad it didn’t work out)

Shaka has no shot at 1. Can’t beat RED!

[Viper]

Shaka has no shot at 1. Can’t beat RED!

haha…RED is trying to help Shaka’s cause in getting that elusive W next December. But…Gard knows ball.

[CountryRoads]

Buzz had a lot of success here on the court but I really don’t miss the off court problems. Here’s some from…two days ago:

https://www.kbtx.com/2024/04/18/texas-am-basketball-player-arrested-charged-with-sexual-assault/?outputType=amp

[CTWarrior]

1.  KO - I don't think he gets enough credit for saving us from the brink of mid-majordom.
2.  Buzz - tournament success best since Al.
3.  Crean - Final Four worth a lot, if he could've gotten a good big to play with the Amigos he'd be number 1
4.  Shaka - If he keeps it up, he'll be number 1 in a few years.  I love everything about him so far
5.  Deane - Great coach, but didn't bring in talent
6.  Hank - Precipitous drop under his watch in a very short amount of time
7.  Wojo - Very good recruiter, we didn't win anything of importance with him (one regular season game)
8.  Majerus - Continued Hank's drop, got the job too soon, should've gone to Ball State to coach and then come back to taker the reigns
9.  Dukiet - His ineptitude is why I have KO at number 1

I had a tough time 1-3 and I really think Shaka is going to be my number 1 when he is through

EDIT - Forgot Majerus

[milwaukee ex-pat]

Crean - Final 4 team was result of some inspired recruiting and his "culture" was great set up for Buzz - his amigos were tough as nails, with no big man depth his teams had to be - other than the bad optics of the whole its IU its IU thing his handoff to Buzz allowed for a practically seamless transition, left the program in great shape for Buzz - if it weren't for some poorly timed injuries he could have had a 2nd final 4 team.
Buzz - Created a culture of realism/extreme toughness that produced diamonds ultimately from coal - very much like Al in some ways. Place him slightly behind Crean because he left the program a near wreck.  Underrated game Coach - best pure game coach since AL imo..
Shaka - Will be no. 1 soon.  Incredible fit for Marquette, we are so fortunate.  The way he is building a program in the NIL era is so well thought out for the long term IMO.  He is the best overall program builder and coach in the country as of this moment I think and he will have more post season success as time goes on.  Could and will I predict replace Al as the greatest all time coach at Marquette.
KO - A good Marquette coach, got a lot out of players, teams generally better than sum of their parts.  Didn't have the imagination to see what Marquette could become, left too early but at least he left MU in a place where they were well positioned to build off what he built.  If Hank were in this - I would put him here above KO.
Deane - superior game coach, quirky personality - wasn't much of a recruiter tho and if you can't recruit there is no path to elevating the program.  Good job by admin to see that and move on despite his ability to win 20 games a year consistently.
Wojo - underrated recruiter by MU fans - and by that I mean he was almost a unicorn to recruit the way he did while he was at Marquette. Got multiple McD AAs - I truly thought that would never happen again.  His other recruits were generally terrific young basketball players with high ceilings. His program was not one to tap that potential which really underlines his weakness as a head coach.  He brought Marquette to the point where it could aspire to be top 5 but then you had defections and other payers not reaching their ceilings etc.  That being said he won some great contests and had some really fun teams to watch.
Majerus - had recruiting misses and just couldn't get his teams over the hump to even true bubble territory.  Wrong time. 
Dukiet - I became a fan in Dukiets first year.  He was probably in an impossible situation in some ways - I would have been interested in seeing what he could have accomplished with Corey Floyd and some of the other players MU wouldn't admit in his last recruiting class - but the move to KO was the spark that allowed MU to move beyond the old Independent paradigm which wasn't a set up for success and doomed Majerus and Dukiet I think.

[Viper]

Crean - Final 4 team was result of some inspired recruiting and his "culture" was great set up for Buzz - his amigos were tough as nails, with no big man depth his teams had to be - other than the bad optics of the whole its IU its IU thing his handoff to Buzz allowed for a practically seamless transition, left the program in great shape for Buzz - if it weren't for some poorly timed injuries he could have had a 2nd final 4 team.
Buzz - Created a culture of realism/extreme toughness that produced diamonds ultimately from coal - very much like Al in some ways. Place him slightly behind Crean because he left the program a near wreck.  Underrated game Coach - best pure game coach since AL imo..
Shaka - Will be no. 1 soon.  Incredible fit for Marquette, we are so fortunate.  The way he is building a program in the NIL era is so well thought out for the long term IMO.  He is the best overall program builder and coach in the country as of this moment I think and he will have more post season success as time goes on.  Could and will I predict replace Al as the greatest all time coach at Marquette.
KO - A good Marquette coach, got a lot out of players, teams generally better than sum of their parts.  Didn't have the imagination to see what Marquette could become, left too early but at least he left MU in a place where they were well positioned to build off what he built.  If Hank were in this - I would put him here above KO.
Deane - superior game coach, quirky personality - wasn't much of a recruiter tho and if you can't recruit there is no path to elevating the program.  Good job by admin to see that and move on despite his ability to win 20 games a year consistently.
Wojo - underrated recruiter by MU fans - and by that I mean he was almost a unicorn to recruit the way he did while he was at Marquette. Got multiple McD AAs - I truly thought that would never happen again.  His other recruits were generally terrific young basketball players with high ceilings. His program was not one to tap that potential which really underlines his weakness as a head coach.  He brought Marquette to the point where it could aspire to be top 5 but then you had defections and other payers not reaching their ceilings etc.  That being said he won some great contests and had some really fun teams to watch.
Majerus - had recruiting misses and just couldn't get his teams over the hump to even true bubble territory.  Wrong time. 
Dukiet - I became a fan in Dukiets first year.  He was probably in an impossible situation in some ways - I would have been interested in seeing what he could have accomplished with Corey Floyd and some of the other players MU wouldn't admit in his last recruiting class - but the move to KO was the spark that allowed MU to move beyond the old Independent paradigm which wasn't a set up for success and doomed Majerus and Dukiet I think.

…some solid commentary.

[Viper]

1.  KO - I don't think he gets enough credit for saving us from the brink of mid-majordom.
2.  Buzz - tournament success best since Al.
3.  Crean - Final Four worth a lot, if he could've gotten a good big to play with the Amigos he'd be number 1
4.  Shaka - If he keeps it up, he'll be number 1 in a few years.  I love everything about him so far
5.  Deane - Great coach, but didn't bring in talent
6.  Hank - Precipitous drop under his watch in a very short amount of time
7.  Wojo - Very good recruiter, we didn't win anything of importance with him (one regular season game)
8.  Dukiet - His ineptitude is why I have KO at number 1

I had a tough time 1-3 and I really think Shaka is going to be my number 1 when he is through

You mention Hank…I got to meet him as a HS player (recruiting a teammate that ended-up w/Steve Yoder and UW-Madison). Hank was genuinely a very nice man and 100% ‘Mr Marquette’…he loved MU. But, and as you state, MU started a downward trajectory under his leadership. I think being athletic director AND coach wasn’t the right fit. The slide from prominence was quick after the ‘77 title.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I tend to judge coaches by comparing where they started to where they ended

1. Crean (Saved MU ball after Deane tried to undo KO's work AND got the closest to the mountaintop)
2. KO (Saved MU ball from becoming Depaul or Loyola, or worse)
3. Shaka (Could easily pass the top 2 in the future or potentially fall but I don't see that happening)
4. Buzz (Maintained Crean's success for five years before the house of cards started to come down in year 6)
5. Hank (Was handed a blue blood, left something less than that when he left. Started our fall from grace)
6. Wojo (Was handed a mess by Buzz and left a mess for Shaka. Whole bunch of meh in between)
7. Deane (Tried his best to undo KO's hard work, fortunately MU intervened in a timely manner)
8. Majerus (While Hank started the fall, Majerus accelerated it)
9. Dukiet (Rock bottom)

[Zog from Margo]

Hank was a much better coach than Deane and Wojo. As I recall, Hank made the NCAAs every year and the field was only 32 teams. The 1977-78 was a top 5 team that got screwed by Pete Pavia. That team also did not benefit from seeding in the tournament. Hank was dealing with a changing landscape: the addition of at-large conference teams to the NCAA; the formation of the Big East; and  the general fall of independents. I am sure Hank’s budget was nowhere near what Wojo enjoyed, even adjusted for inflation. Hank wasn’t a salesman and he had far bigger shoes to fill than any other MU coach. Wojo had two seasons with a winning conference record over seven years. Deane had no ambition.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Hank was a much better coach than Deane and Wojo. As I recall, Hank made the NCAAs every year and the field was only 32 teams. The 1977-78 was a top 5 team that got screwed by Pete Pavia. That team also did not benefit from seeding in the tournament. Hank was dealing with a changing landscape: the addition of at-large conference teams to the NCAA; the formation of the Big East; and  the general fall of independents. I am sure Hank’s budget was nowhere near what Wojo enjoyed, even adjusted for inflation. Hank wasn’t a salesman and he had far bigger shoes to fill than any other MU coach. Wojo had two seasons with a winning conference record over seven years. Deane had no ambition.

Agree wholeheartedly.  Not only was Hank dealing with a changing landscape, but an institution that refused to understand those changes. They were acting like an athletic department more like MUHS than a major university. And that continued until the bottoming out of Bob Dukiet.

The issues that Wojo had to deal with post-Buzz were not as structural in nature. They were more easily fixed by getting the right people in the right seats. They had little to do with his ability as a coach.

[#UnleashSean]

With 5 years to judge..... Shaka may very well be #1, but right now buzz and crean need to be ahead of him.



101. Wojo
7. Dukiet
6. Majerus
5. Deane
4. Ko
3. Shaka
2. Crean
1. Buzz

[BLWarrior91]

Dukiet beat Bucky once!

[#UnleashSean]

Crean - Final 4 team was result of some inspired recruiting and his "culture" was great set up for Buzz - his amigos were tough as nails, with no big man depth his teams had to be - other than the bad optics of the whole its IU its IU thing his handoff to Buzz allowed for a practically seamless transition, left the program in great shape for Buzz - if it weren't for some poorly timed injuries he could have had a 2nd final 4 team.
Buzz - Created a culture of realism/extreme toughness that produced diamonds ultimately from coal - very much like Al in some ways. Place him slightly behind Crean because he left the program a near wreck.  Underrated game Coach - best pure game coach since AL imo..
Shaka - Will be no. 1 soon.  Incredible fit for Marquette, we are so fortunate.  The way he is building a program in the NIL era is so well thought out for the long term IMO.  He is the best overall program builder and coach in the country as of this moment I think and he will have more post season success as time goes on.  Could and will I predict replace Al as the greatest all time coach at Marquette.
KO - A good Marquette coach, got a lot out of players, teams generally better than sum of their parts.  Didn't have the imagination to see what Marquette could become, left too early but at least he left MU in a place where they were well positioned to build off what he built.  If Hank were in this - I would put him here above KO.
Deane - superior game coach, quirky personality - wasn't much of a recruiter tho and if you can't recruit there is no path to elevating the program.  Good job by admin to see that and move on despite his ability to win 20 games a year consistently.
Wojo - underrated recruiter by MU fans - and by that I mean he was almost a unicorn to recruit the way he did while he was at Marquette. Got multiple McD AAs - I truly thought that would never happen again.  His other recruits were generally terrific young basketball players with high ceilings. His program was not one to tap that potential which really underlines his weakness as a head coach.  He brought Marquette to the point where it could aspire to be top 5 but then you had defections and other payers not reaching their ceilings etc.  That being said he won some great contests and had some really fun teams to watch.
Majerus - had recruiting misses and just couldn't get his teams over the hump to even true bubble territory.  Wrong time. 
Dukiet - I became a fan in Dukiets first year.  He was probably in an impossible situation in some ways - I would have been interested in seeing what he could have accomplished with Corey Floyd and some of the other players MU wouldn't admit in his last recruiting class - but the move to KO was the spark that allowed MU to move beyond the old Independent paradigm which wasn't a set up for success and doomed Majerus and Dukiet I think.

My guy..... use the enter button occasionally.

[Uncle Rico]

1. Dukiet - understood what Billy Packer said

2. Deane - Coached 3 different teams to the NCAA Tournament

3. Wojo - Ruined 5DollarPitcher’s college experience.  That’s worth a lot in my book

4. Majerus - it’s funny he bullied people and was a tyrant

5. Hank - Rates lower for bringing Doc to Milwaukee

6. KO - Couldn’t wait to leave Milwaukee.  Who can blame him?

7. Buzz - Kept rapists on the team in the name of winning game.  Guy gets it.

8. Shaka - Can’t beat Bucky.  Ruins Viper’s family functions

9. Crean - Had the gall to be successful and bring great players to Marquette.  Didn’t kiss enough babies.

EDIT: Majerus was forgotten

[tower912]

And Majerus?

[BLWarrior91]

Crean - Brought us a Final Four, the Al, for us to the Big East, filled the BC.  Elevated the program tremendously.

Shaka - Turned around a program stuck in neutral.  Had us up to #3 and ranked in the Top 10 most of the season.  The future is very bright.

KO - Brought the program back from the brink.  Getting us to the Sweet Sixteen and out of the MCC showed that we could still dream big.

Buzz - Continued what Crean built for five years with NCAA tournament success. 

Wojo - Good recruiter, couldn’t win when it mattered most.  Ran a clean program.

Rick - Three straight NITs.  We needed a break from the past at that point.  Problem was Hank was the AD and hired Piano Bob.

Dukiet - He was so far over his head.  He actually had Freeway sit on the bench.

[dgies9156]

I've seen everyone from Al on, so, worst to first:

Dukiet -- Tried to recapture the Al magic by recruiting a coach from a small, mid-major school. Not only did we not capture magic in a bottle, broke the bottle and nearly severed our hand. Also done at a time when "cheap" was the Marquette culture. Had no business being at MU.

Hank -- Great man, good second banana. Loyal to Marquette to a fault. Should have seen what was coming in March 1978.

Majerus -- Nothing good you can say about his tenure, other than he coached Doc Rivers. Wasn't ready and everyone knew it. Needed to spend time in a smaller situation (like Ball State) before being hired at MU. The university was afraid he would end up at Wisconsin or something. Saw what could have been at Utah.

Deane -- Good bench coach, lousy recruiter. Already been said in here.

Wojo -- Who? Seriously, good recruiter but couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag. The fact that he was an assistant at Duke for 20 years should have been telling.  The guy knew basketball and by all measures was an incredibly decent guy, but something was really wrong. The Henry Ellenson year was a dead give-away that things were off and he had less control over the team than one might think.

O'Neill -- Never completely understood why he left MU for Tennessee. Yeah, SEC and bigger school, but he had something cooking here. I suspect O'Neill's coarseness meant he wore out his welcome in Milwaukee and at Marquette. I think in time he might have won H-U-G-E if he'd stayed.

Crean -- OK, I get why he left. At the time, Indiana was still thought of as a fading blue blood, and we weren't. Thought it would be easier to recruit at Indiana. Got us to a Final Four and recruited the best ever, DWade. But, for whatever reason, I suspect Coach Crean thought the grass was greener elsewhere. Discovered what Shaka discovered at Texas. Also had something special cooking at Marquette, if he'd stayed and sustained it.

Buzz -- I admit I intensely dislike this guy for the way he left us. But he is a great coach and had something going at our place when the crap hit the proverbial fan. Should have been able to keep Vander Blue but something happened there. Last team would have been a heck of a lot better if Vander had stayed. Great recruiter, good game coach but, oh geez, some of the off-the-court problems.

Shaka -- Great man, great coach. Has something special cooking. Has made Marquette a near blue blood again.

Al -- Exemplified what Marquette is about!

[Elonsmusk]

1) Shaka
2) Buzz
3) KO
4) Crean
5) Raymonds
6) Deane
7) Wojo
8) Dukeit

Program never had earned a 2 seed prior to Shaka's arrival, and Shaka did it back to back.  Yes, you'd hope for deeper runs with a 2 seed but he did win a Big East conference title outright, and a Big East Tournament Championship, when no previous coach got beyond the semi-finals.

A little difficult to rank Crean 4th, yet Buzz was a better coach, and the cupboard after Year 1 was EMPTY.  To go S16, S16 and Elite 8 trumps 1 Final Four with a generational talent.

KO inherited an absolute trainwreck of a program, far worse than what Crean inherited from Deane, which is why KO ranks higher IMO.

[withoutbias]

1) Shaka
2) Buzz
3) KO
4) Crean
5) Raymonds
6) Deane
7) Wojo
8) Dukeit

Program never had earned a 2 seed prior to Shaka's arrival, and Shaka did it back to back.  Yes, you'd hope for deeper runs with a 2 seed but he did win a Big East conference title outright, and a Big East Tournament Championship, when no previous coach got beyond the semi-finals.

A little difficult to rank Crean 4th, yet Buzz was a better coach, and the cupboard after Year 1 was EMPTY.  To go S16, S16 and Elite 8 trumps 1 Final Four with a generational talent.

KO inherited an absolute trainwreck of a program, far worse than what Crean inherited from Deane, which is why KO ranks higher IMO.

I know you have some looney takes, but you can't possibly think that the program was in a worse place when Crean left than it was when he arrived, can you?  You're just trolling at this point, right?

[brewcity77]

I know you have some looney takes, but you can't possibly think that the program was in a worse place when Crean left than it was when he arrived, can you?  You're just trolling at this point, right?

Agreed, that's a ridiculous take, especially because of the situation around it. After Year 1 (so year two) Crean left three starters in Hayward, Cubillan, and Acker. In addition, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule were already committed to Marquette under Crean. So were Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor, both of whom went on to have productive high-major careers.

Yes, Crean was able to bring Williams along with while Buzz couldn't keep Taylor, but there was at least some foundation there, and Buzz offset those losses with Buycks and DJO. Had Crean not left, the cupboard wasn't remotely bare, and Buzz had a solid foundation for year two as indicated by 3 starters leftover from Crean and a 6-seed that year.

[Uncle Rico]

Agreed, that's a ridiculous take, especially because of the situation around it. After Year 1 (so year two) Crean left three starters in Hayward, Cubillan, and Acker. In addition, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule were already committed to Marquette under Crean. So were Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor, both of whom went on to have productive high-major careers.

Yes, Crean was able to bring Williams along with while Buzz couldn't keep Taylor, but there was at least some foundation there, and Buzz offset those losses with Buycks and DJO. Had Crean not left, the cupboard wasn't remotely bare, and Buzz had a solid foundation for year two as indicated by 3 starters leftover from Crean and a 6-seed that year.

Buzz recruiting John Dawson is worth at least one spot.  Lower

[Lennys Tap]

Agreed, that's a ridiculous take, especially because of the situation around it. After Year 1 (so year two) Crean left three starters in Hayward, Cubillan, and Acker. In addition, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule were already committed to Marquette under Crean. So were Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor, both of whom went on to have productive high-major careers.

Yes, Crean was able to bring Williams along with while Buzz couldn't keep Taylor, but there was at least some foundation there, and Buzz offset those losses with Buycks and DJO. Had Crean not left, the cupboard wasn't remotely bare, and Buzz had a solid foundation for year two as indicated by 3 starters leftover from Crean and a 6-seed that year.

Boy. Saying Buzz inherited “starters” David Cubillan and Mo Acker in year 2 from Tom Crean is really a stretch. In their first year with Buzz they averaged 2.8 and 1.6 points per game, 1.4 and .5 rebounds per game and 1.8 and .2 assists per game. Yes, they started for Buzz in his second year, but the guys Buzz got from Crean were end of the bench guys, not starters.

[BLWarrior91]

Crean left a potential Final Four team for Buzz along with future starters.  No first-year coach at Marquette other than Hank inherited the talent level Buzz got.

[wadesworld]

Crean left a potential Final Four team for Buzz along with future starters.  No first-year coach at Marquette other than Hank inherited the talent level Buzz got.

Justin, Stevie, Kam, and Oso weren’t bad pieces to inherit.

[brewcity77]

Boy. Saying Buzz inherited “starters” David Cubillan and Mo Acker in year 2 from Tom Crean is really a stretch. In their first year with Buzz they averaged 2.8 and 1.6 points per game, 1.4 and .5 rebounds per game and 1.8 and .2 assists per game. Yes, they started for Buzz in his second year, but the guys Buzz got from Crean were end of the bench guys, not starters.

Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.

[THRILLHO]

Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.

Your post is insane and Lenny is right

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Your post is insane and Lenny is right

In year two, Buzz inherited three staters on an NCAA tournament team, one of whom was a future first round NBA draft pick.

Pointing out that two of the three didn’t play much in year one is odd because Buzz also inherited the Amigos.

So to summarize, Buzz inherited…

Three seniors who had been starting since their freshman year.

A junior who started for two years, and would eventually start for two additional years and be drafted in the NBA.

Two additional juniors who would start on a NCAA tournament team.

Claiming the cupboard was bare is an insane take.

[Lennys Tap]

Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.

Thanks for the offer, Brew - but I’ll decline. I’ll expand on my point tonight - too busy today.

[Elonsmusk]

I know you have some looney takes, but you can't possibly think that the program was in a worse place when Crean left than it was when he arrived, can you?  You're just trolling at this point, right?

Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived?  Here's the answer:  Nowhere.  I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty.  If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.

Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.

Lenny said it best.  And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.

S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.

Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all.  Very grateful for what he did at MU.  There's no bias against Crean.  I just think Buzz was a better coach.  You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.

[Elonsmusk]

Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.

Absolute tool of a post.  Then again, not surprised you wouldn't think great coaching was why a roster with two midget guards was able to earn a 6 seed. Nor should I be surprised that you'd think inheriting David Cubiallian and Mo Acker formed the ingredients of a full cupboard.  Lazar was the only high major caliber player left on the roster in Year 2.

[MUfan12]

Love that we're arguing a coaching change that happened 16 years ago.

But I will say the coaching job Buzz did in 09-10 was among the best I've seen. It helps having experience but he adjusted to his personnel beautifully.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived?  Here's the answer:  Nowhere.  I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty.  If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.

Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.

Lenny said it best.  And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.

S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.

Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all.  Very grateful for what he did at MU.  There's no bias against Crean.  I just think Buzz was a better coach.  You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.

You said it was “EMPTY.” It wasn’t.

Now I would agree it wasn’t full either, but this isn’t a binary choice. I mean he was literally left with a future NBA draft pick that he got to coach for two seasons.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Love that we're arguing a coaching change that happened 16 years ago.

But I will say the coaching job Buzz did in 09-10 was among the best I've seen. It helps having experience but he adjusted to his personnel beautifully.

Absolutely. That was a fun team to watch.

[Uncle Rico]

Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived?  Here's the answer:  Nowhere.  I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty.  If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.

Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.

Lenny said it best.  And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.

S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.

Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all.  Very grateful for what he did at MU.  There's no bias against Crean.  I just think Buzz was a better coach.  You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.

#fakenews

[brewcity77]

Thanks for the offer, Brew - but I’ll decline. I’ll expand on my point tonight - too busy today.

The simple question is one of facts.

Did Tom Crean recruit David Cubillan? Yes. Did David Cubillan start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Did Tom Crean recruit Maurice Acker? Yes. Did Maurice Acker appear in all 34 games, starting 21, and rank top-5 in total minutes played for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Did Tom Crean recruit Lazar Hayward? Yes. Did Lazar Hayward start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Tom Crean also recruited Joe Fulce, who was committed before Crean left. He started the other 13 games that Acker didn't start.

So by any measure, trying to dispute that Crean left three players that started on the 2009-10 team, which was not Buzz's "Year 1", is simply at odds with reality. Contending such is wrong. This isn't a debate, a discussion, or any form of discourse. They were not starters on Buzz's first team, but in his second year, they were. And Crean left them behind.

Buzz inherited an absolutely loaded team, arguably the most top-to-bottom loaded with talent team since the 1970s. He had four of the top ten scorers in program history, 175/175 starts in 2009 and 103/170 starts in 2010 were inherited players, all good enough to start for top-6 NCAA seeds. We know that because that's what they did.

It's similar to pieces Wojo left for Shaka. Justin Lewis, Greg Elliott, Oso Ighodaro, Stevie Mitchell, and Kam Jones are all guys Wojo gets credit for bringing to Marquette and for leaving "in the cupboard".

This isn't an opinion discussion. It's a fact based one. Hindsight is 20/20, and in this case, there's simply no disputing what we actually know happened.

[Zog from Margo]

At what point does the coach who inherits a player get credit? Oso was an afterthought on Wojo’s roster. I can’t imagine Wojo ever would have played Oso in the role he eventually assumed. Mitchell and Kam had never played D-1 and were completely unproven. At the time Shaka took over, I don’t think anyone would have thought that the cupboard he inherited was full.

I’m very happy Wojo recruited those guys and he deserves credit for identifying them and signing them. I’m just not convinced any of those guys would have been the players they turned out to be had they not played for Shaka.

Similarly, I think most were stunned when Buzz took the team with Cubillan and Acker at guard to the NCAAs. I don’t see Crean getting into the tournament with that roster.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Who gets credit is not what the argument is.

[Zog from Margo]

Who gets credit is not what the argument is.

My mistake.

[wadesworld]

Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived?  Here's the answer:  Nowhere.  I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty.  If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.

Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.

Lenny said it best.  And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.

S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.

Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all.  Very grateful for what he did at MU.  There's no bias against Crean.  I just think Buzz was a better coach.  You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.

5 seeds don’t play 14 seeds round one.

Also, was MU not allowed to recruit during Buzz’s first year? Why was he “forced” to start two small guards his second year?

[Elonsmusk]

The simple question is one of facts.

Did Tom Crean recruit David Cubillan? Yes. Did David Cubillan start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Did Tom Crean recruit Maurice Acker? Yes. Did Maurice Acker appear in all 34 games, starting 21, and rank top-5 in total minutes played for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Did Tom Crean recruit Lazar Hayward? Yes. Did Lazar Hayward start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.

Tom Crean also recruited Joe Fulce, who was committed before Crean left. He started the other 13 games that Acker didn't start.

So by any measure, trying to dispute that Crean left three players that started on the 2009-10 team, which was not Buzz's "Year 1", is simply at odds with reality. Contending such is wrong. This isn't a debate, a discussion, or any form of discourse. They were not starters on Buzz's first team, but in his second year, they were. And Crean left them behind.

Buzz inherited an absolutely loaded team, arguably the most top-to-bottom loaded with talent team since the 1970s. He had four of the top ten scorers in program history, 175/175 starts in 2009 and 103/170 starts in 2010 were inherited players, all good enough to start for top-6 NCAA seeds. We know that because that's what they did.

It's similar to pieces Wojo left for Shaka. Justin Lewis, Greg Elliott, Oso Ighodaro, Stevie Mitchell, and Kam Jones are all guys Wojo gets credit for bringing to Marquette and for leaving "in the cupboard".

This isn't an opinion discussion. It's a fact based one. Hindsight is 20/20, and in this case, there's simply no disputing what we actually know happened.

LOL

[Elonsmusk]

5 seeds don’t play 14 seeds round one.

Also, was MU not allowed to recruit during Buzz’s first year? Why was he “forced” to start two small guards his second year?

Good catch.  I thought we were a 3 that year.  Nonetheless, stellar coaching job leading a team with DWade to a first round loss against Tulsa.

Do you feel Crean was a better coach than Buzz?  Seems you haven't weighed in on the topic, so lets get your rankings!

[Elonsmusk]

#fakenews

0

[wadesworld]

Good catch.  I thought we were a 3 that year.  Nonetheless, stellar coaching job leading a team with DWade to a first round loss against Tulsa.

Do you feel Crean was a better coach than Buzz?  Seems you haven't weighed in on the topic, so lets get your rankings!

I think Buzz is a better basketball coach, but Crean improved the program more than Buzz did and was a more important coach to the program.

[Uncle Rico]

I think Buzz is a better basketball coach, but Crean improved the program more than Buzz did and was a more important coach to the program.

The more important question is:

Who effing cares?

[MU82]

Good catch.  I thought we were a 3 that year.  Nonetheless, stellar coaching job leading a team with DWade to a first round loss against Tulsa.

Do you feel Crean was a better coach than Buzz?  Seems you haven't weighed in on the topic, so lets get your rankings!

At Indiana, Bobby Knight had stellar coaching jobs in losing first-round NCAA tournament games to double-digit seeds Pepperdine, Boston College, Richmond and Cleveland State. I'm guessing you think he was a pretty good coach.

Hell, Shaka went 9 years without winning a single NCAA tournament game, including a loss to a 14-seeded Abilene Christian team that a Texas squad with 4 NBA players should have beaten by 20+. And I know you think Shaka is a great coach despite that stellar coaching job.

So the argument that Crean was bad because he lost to a 12-seed to end Wade's first college season (and then went to the Final Four one year later) is an interesting one.

Both Williams and Crean contributed a lot to Marquette basketball. Crean left Williams much more talent than most first-year coaches receive to work with: Matthews, James, McNeil, Hayward, Acker, Cubillan, Fulce, Burke.

Williams had two full years at Marquette - one as Crean's assistant, one as the head coach of a talented team - to recruit good players for his own second season. And he did a good job, landing Butler, DJO, Buycks and Maymon.

I'm not sure what the problem is with that Crean-to-Williams handoff.

Also ... this:

The more important question is:

Who effing cares?

[Lennys Tap]

Similarly, I think most were stunned when Buzz took the team with Cubillan and Acker at guard to the NCAAs. I don’t see Crean getting into the tournament with that roster.

This is, of course, the point. Giving a coach “credit” for leaving behind 2 guys who
2 years later would form, on paper, the worst starting backcourt in Marquette history is absurd.
Mo Acker was a mid major recruit who got the opportunity to be a back up at MU because he was Jerel’s high school teammate at Hillcrest. His third year here (as a junior who had sat out a transfer year) he averaged 2.8 ppg, 1.4 rpg and 1.8 apg. IIRC, he was dismissed from the team after the season - and nobody cared. When it became clear by the end of summer that we had nobody to man the point Buzz invited him back.
Cubillan had been at MU for 3 years also. He had started one (1) game and as a junior averaged 1.6 ppg, .5 rpg and .7 apg.
I’m still amazed with what Buzz did with that team. So was all of college basketball. I’ve never heard TC get credit for that backcourt before. Only blame. As it should be.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

No. This was never about “credit.” It was Elon’s statement that it was left “EMPTY” in year two. It was not.

What Buzz did with that team was great. But he simply wasn’t left with an empty cupboard for his second year.

Which honestly is a strange metric anyway. I’ve clearly heard “he was left with an empty cupboard” before. But I don’t think I’ve heard “he was left with an empty cupboard for year two” before this topic.

But year two, the new coach can get his guys in the door. Just like Buzz and Shaka did.

[Lennys Tap]

No. This was never about “credit.” It was Elon’s statement that it was left “EMPTY” in year two. It was not.

What Buzz did with that team was great. But he simply wasn’t left with an empty cupboard for his second year.

Which honestly is a strange metric anyway. I’ve clearly heard “he was left with an empty cupboard” before. But I don’t think I’ve heard “he was left with an empty cupboard for year two” before this topic.

But year two, the new coach can get his guys in the door. Just like Buzz and Shaka did.

We’ll agree to disagree. Brew doesn’t just (wrongly) think Crean deserved credit, he thinks the fact that they (as last resorts) started proves he deserves credit. To me that’s pretzel logic.

Also, the landscape is much different today than it was 15 years ago. A lot more progress can be made before the start of year 2 today than was possible then.

[MU82]

No. This was never about “credit.” It was Elon’s statement that it was left “EMPTY” in year two. It was not.

What Buzz did with that team was great. But he simply wasn’t left with an empty cupboard for his second year.

Which honestly is a strange metric anyway. I’ve clearly heard “he was left with an empty cupboard” before. But I don’t think I’ve heard “he was left with an empty cupboard for year two” before this topic.

But year two, the new coach can get his guys in the door. Just like Buzz and Shaka did.

I think we can all agree that Buzz left Shaka a totally empty cupboard.

[MUDPT]

This is, of course, the point. Giving a coach “credit” for leaving behind 2 guys who
2 years later would form, on paper, the worst starting backcourt in Marquette history is absurd.
Mo Acker was a mid major recruit who got the opportunity to be a back up at MU because he was Jerel’s high school teammate at Hillcrest. His third year here (as a junior who had sat out a transfer year) he averaged 2.8 ppg, 1.4 rpg and 1.8 apg. IIRC, he was dismissed from the team after the season - and nobody cared. When it became clear by the end of summer that we had nobody to man the point Buzz invited him back.
Cubillan had been at MU for 3 years also. He had started one (1) game and as a junior averaged 1.6 ppg, .5 rpg and .7 apg.
I’m still amazed with what Buzz did with that team. So was all of college basketball. I’ve never heard TC get credit for that backcourt before. Only blame. As it should be.

Mo was MAC freshman of the year. There was obviously the Jerel connection, but I think he transferred out of Ball State after Buckley was fired. So there was that connection too.

Anyone else remember when Cubillan came in his freshman year, TC was playing him a ton at PG at the beginning of the season with Dom off guard?