Football Ratings Are Down

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Agreed. But the point isn't whether they'll enforce the laws on their books - it's whether enforcing them would make them fascists.

It wouldn't make them fascists. It would make them an organization who has committed a fascist action.

The point I have been trying to make is that people are demanding that the NFL force its employees to participate in a political statement against their will and threaten those employees with termination and fines if they refuse. That's beyond squeamish to me. I don't care what the political statement is. And yes, forcing someone to submit to your politics against their will is a fascist action.

I don't think TAMU minds employers subjecting employees to arbitrary or even stupid rules unless they disagree with his politics. Then he has a problem.

Please provide me an example where I have ever advocating shutting down speech because I don't agree with the politics. The only thing I can think of is earlier in this thread I said I would support shutting down speech that's sole purpose is to inspire hate and violence against a specific group (e.g. KKK or Westboro Baptist Church).

You can try to make this about personal politics but its not. I am not comfortable with anyone forcing anyone to participate in a political statement against their will. It doesn't matter the politics. If McDonald's decided to endorse Hillary Clinton and forced all of their employees to wear Clinton-Kaine buttons under threat of termination/fines, I would be very uncomfortable with that. Heisy mentioned Starbucks doing something with their baristas having conversations about race. While I think the execution was poor, I am very in support of increasing conversations about race. I don't know the details, but if employees who didn't want to participate were being fired or having their pay docked, I would have been very much against it. If an NFL player wanted to kneel during the national anthem because he couldn't support a country that allows for gay marriage, I would dislike that player, but I would support his right to kneel.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Question for TAMU ...

Do you think it was a bit fascist that the NFL punished Ray Rice for the incident in the Elevator?  It was the OFF-SEASON!  What he does on his time, and even if that includes slapping around his wife, is his business.  We have law enforcement and courts to deal with this, as long as it does not affect his job, and being this was the OFF-SEASON it did not, his employer should not be involved.

Try again. You can't compare someone not participating in a political statement to someone who beats his wife.

Note, the NFL has the right to intrude into Ray Rice's relationship with his wife because his contract has a morals clause, that was approved by the NFLPA.

You don't need a morals clause to fire someone for beating their wife outside of work. I know, I've been part of a termination hearing for a professor who was convicted for beating his wife. Also, there's nothing immoral about not participating in a political statement.

I guess I don't see the protest ban, WHILE AT WORK AND USING EMPLOYER RESOURCES TO SUBJECT CUSTOMERS TO IT, as any different.

This isn't about banning an employee protest. Its about whether or not the NFL should force an employee to participate in a political statement that it is making.

[naginiF]

Exactly. Idiocy is a meritocracy that accepts people from every race, religion and political persuasion.........

.....and fan base 

[Lennys Tap]

This isn't about banning an employee protest. Its about whether or not the NFL should force an employee to participate in a political statement that it is making.

The vast majority of people who stand for our (or Canada's) national anthem are not participating in any political statement. They're exhibiting common courtesy, a common courtesy I'm OK with employers demanding that their employees demonstrate.

Now going out of your way to disrespect the anthem - that is a political statement, pure and simple.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The vast majority of people who stand for our (or Canada's) national anthem are not participating in any political statement. They're exhibiting common courtesy, a common courtesy I'm OK with employers demanding that their employees demonstrate.

Now going out of your way to disrespect the anthem - that is a political statement, pure and simple.

I'd argue it's both common courtesy and a political statement. What kaeprernick is doing is certainly disrespectful. But I prefer disrespect over forced politics

[Lennys Tap]

I'd argue it's both common courtesy and a political statement. What kaeprernick is doing is certainly disrespectful. But I prefer disrespect over forced politics

I don't see it as "forced politics". There are any number of avenues of legitimate protest available. Why choose being a disrespectful person lacking in common courtesy? Best answer? A true protest would require some effort. Acting like a dick in a place you already have to be (and are getting millions to be) doesn't.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't see it as "forced politics". There are any number of avenues of legitimate protest available. Why choose being a disrespectful person lacking in common courtesy? Best answer? A true protest would require some effort. Acting like a dick in a place you already have to be (and are getting millions to be) doesn't.

I think most successful protesters are considered disrespectful by many. They don't call it civil disobedience for nothing.

I also don't consider Kaepernick a protester. He knelt during the national anthem for three games without a word. He wasn't trying to start a movement or a protest. He doesn't personally respect the United States government so he didn't feel like participating in the national anthem. Just like many atheists don't feel like participating in the pledge of allegiance. It didn't become a protest until the masses demanded that he be punished for having an opinion different than their's. We (the collective masses) made this into a protest, not Kaepernick.

[Lennys Tap]

I think most successful protesters are considered disrespectful by many. They don't call it civil disobedience for nothing.

I also don't consider Kaepernick a protester. He knelt during the national anthem for three games without a word. He wasn't trying to start a movement or a protest. He doesn't personally respect the United States government so he didn't feel like participating in the national anthem. Just like many atheists don't feel like participating in the pledge of allegiance. It didn't become a protest until the masses demanded that he be punished for having an opinion different than their's. We (the collective masses) made this into a protest, not Kaepernick.

I think you're seeing this through a decidedly skewed lens, a lens on the extreme of the spectrum. I think Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsberg said it best - "Kapernick's protest is stupid and disrespectful, but he shouldn't go to jail for it".

[Pakuni]

As some of you probably saw already, Bill Belichick this week came out and ranted against the Surface tablet that coaches and players use on the sideline as part of a $400 million sponsorship deal between the NFL and Microsoft. He said they were "too undependable," presented problems pretty much on a weekly basis and that he no longer was going to use them.
It goes without saying that it's a bad look for the league and a major sponsor when a guy widely seen as one of the smartest coaches of all time publicly lambastes their product. If other coaches or players follow suit - copycat league and all, right? - it could cause serious harm to the league's lucrative relationship with Microsoft and cost owners substantial revenues.

So, that being the case, the question is ... Should Roger Goodell mandate that Belichick and his staff continue to use the Surface on the sidelines against their wishes, and suspend him if he refuses to follow those orders?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think you're seeing this through a decidedly skewed lens, a lens on the extreme of the spectrum. I think Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsberg said it best - "Kapernick's protest is stupid and disrespectful, but he shouldn't go to jail for it".

You can call my lens skewed if you wish. I agree with Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsberg 100%. I think what Kapernick doing is stupid and disrespectful. And he shouldn't go to jail for it. He also shouldn't be terminated from his job or fined.

The funny thing about this whole thing is that I don't like what Kaepernick is doing. I, in general agree with his cause of police brutality being an issue that needs to be better addressed in this county. But I think what he's doing is more likely to hurt the cause than help it. It's more decisive than educational. It is getting people to talk which is a positive, but Kaepernick is one of the last people I'd want to be the face of something like this. He is an a**clown of a human being IMHO for many reasons that were outlined previously in this thread. So it's funny to me that you have accused me multiple times now of letting my personal politics color my vision.

The only ones who are letting personal politics get in the way are the masses who are demanding that a man be fired or fined for his refusal to participate in the national anthem.

[Lennys Tap]

You can call my lens skewed if you wish. I agree with Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsberg 100%. I think what Kapernick doing is stupid and disrespectful. And he shouldn't go to jail for it. He also shouldn't be terminated from his job or fined.

I'm glad you agree with the Justice, but your extremism is defining standing for our or the Canadian (or any other) national anthem a "political act". It's common courtesy. What's wrong with an employer expecting an employee who has signed a contract agreeing to show common courtesy breaking that contract? How is that "fascism"?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm glad you agree with the Justice, but your extremism is defining standing for our or the Canadian (or any other) national anthem a "political act". It's common courtesy. What's wrong with an employer expecting an employee who has signed a contract agreeing to show common courtesy breaking that contract? How is that "fascism"?

It is both, IMHO. I really don't think you can separate the two. It is respectful to stand for any national anthem. But we also do it as a show of allegiance to or a way of revering our country. What if someone doesn't revere their county? What if they don't have respect for it? Forcing them to honor the country against their will is a fascist action. Thinking he's disrespectful, fine. Calling him an ungrateful whelp, sure. Benching him because coach doesn't approve, don't like it but wouldn't fight it. Threatening him with loss of job or fines? That crosses a line for me.

[Lennys Tap]

It is both, IMHO. I really don't think you can separate the two. It is respectful to stand for any national anthem. But we also do it as a show of allegiance to or a way of revering our country. What if someone doesn't revere their county? What if they don't have respect for it? Forcing them to honor the country against their will is a fascist action. Thinking he's disrespectful, fine. Calling him an ungrateful whelp, sure. Benching him because coach doesn't approve, don't like it but wouldn't fight it. Threatening him with loss of job or fines? That crosses a line for me.

So if I'm in Russia watching a soccer game and I stand for their national anthem it means I revere Russia and approve of their policies? That's crazy. And guess what - EVERY SINGLE ADULT in the USA has something about our country or our policies they don't approve of. Fight, argue, march for your beliefs and you'll get no argument from me. But just being a discourteous moron isn't being a political protester even if you and he insist on calling it that.

With that, I give you the last word and respectfully withdraw from the discussion.

[Tugg Speedman]

As some of you probably saw already, Bill Belichick this week came out and ranted against the Surface tablet that coaches and players use on the sideline as part of a $400 million sponsorship deal between the NFL and Microsoft. He said they were "too undependable," presented problems pretty much on a weekly basis and that he no longer was going to use them.
It goes without saying that it's a bad look for the league and a major sponsor when a guy widely seen as one of the smartest coaches of all time publicly lambastes their product. If other coaches or players follow suit - copycat league and all, right? - it could cause serious harm to the league's lucrative relationship with Microsoft and cost owners substantial revenues.

So, that being the case, the question is ... Should Roger Goodell mandate that Belichick and his staff continue to use the Surface on the sidelines against their wishes, and suspend him if he refuses to follow those orders?

The NFL will suspend anyone that uses an iPad on the sidelines and will fine anyone for using the word iPad.

[Pakuni]

The NFL will suspend anyone that uses an iPad on the sidelines and will fine anyone for using the word iPad.

1. How do you know this?
2. That wasn't the question. The question was should the NFL fine and/or suspend Belichick for his derogatory and potentially costly words about a major league sponsor and his ongoing refusal to use their product?
3. Jay Cutler criticized the Surface and used the word "iPad" in 2014. He was neither fined or suspended.
https://www.cnet.com/news/surface-is-a-knock-off-ipad-says-nfls-highest-paid-player/

[muwarrior69]

It is both, IMHO. I really don't think you can separate the two. It is respectful to stand for any national anthem. But we also do it as a show of allegiance to or a way of revering our country. What if someone doesn't revere their county? What if they don't have respect for it? Forcing them to honor the country against their will is a fascist action. Thinking he's disrespectful, fine. Calling him an ungrateful whelp, sure. Benching him because coach doesn't approve, don't like it but wouldn't fight it. Threatening him with loss of job or fines? That crosses a line for me.

Would you not approve the firing of a high school football coach who kneels and prays on the field during the anthem?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Would you not approve the firing of a high school football coach who kneels and prays on the field during the anthem?

I feel like I need more context. But with the information you have given me, no, I would not approve. If someone wants to kneel and pray during the national anthem, that is their prerogative.

[Tugg Speedman]

Since this thread is about NFL ratings ...

Tonight is the Packers/Bears.  At the same time is game 5 of the Cubs/Dodgers.

In Chicago and Southeastern WI, how much does the Cubs game eat into the Packers/Bears ratings tonight?  Is it enough to hurt national ratings for the game?

Thoughts?

[cheebs09]

Since this thread is about NFL ratings ...

Tonight is the Packers/Bears.  At the same time is game 5 of the Cubs/Dodgers.

In Chicago and Southeastern WI, how much does the Cubs game eat into the Packers/Bears ratings tonight?  Is it enough to hurt national ratings for the game?

Thoughts?

For the average fan, it's a pretty unappealing matchup. Unless people want to see if Rodgers and the Packers offense will continue to struggle, I don't see it drawing well. Going up against what's been an exciting series in the NLCS will make it worse in my opinion.

[tower912]

Cubs will draw a bigger audience than the Bears.    The Cubs/Dodgers is a far bigger story nationally than the Bears/Packers. 

[Sir Lawrence]

Cubs will draw a bigger audience than the Bears.    The Cubs/Dodgers is a far bigger story nationally than the Bears/Packers.

You would certainly think so.  Chicago and LA markets and all.  Yet on Sunday the Colts/Texans game attracted almost double the viewers as did game 2 of NLCS.   I know TNF isn't as big of a draw as SNF, but it will be interesting to see who watches what tonight.

[Lennys Tap]

I feel like I need more context. But with the information you have given me, no, I would not approve. If someone wants to kneel and pray during the national anthem, that is their prerogative.

How about if kneels and prays with the players on his team who choose to join him?

[Tugg Speedman]

You would certainly think so.  Chicago and LA markets and all.  Yet on Sunday the Colts/Texans game attracted almost double the viewers as did game 2 of NLCS.   I know TNF isn't as big of a draw as SNF, but it will be interesting to see who watches what tonight.

Sunday night is on NBC where the baseball game was on FS1

Tonight's FB game is on CBS versus FS1 for baseball.

The station lineup makes a big difference.  So yes the football game will outdraw because it is football and is on a station in far more homes than FS1.

But on a relative basis, baseball in LA and Chicago tonight (not to mention Packer country of SE WI) should take a chunk out of the NFL ratings tonight.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How about if kneels and prays with the players on his team who choose to join him?

Again, I feel like there is a story I don't know so would like more context. But with the information I have been given I would have no issue with it provided the players weren't being forced to join him in sort of way.

[Lennys Tap]

Again, I feel like there is a story I don't know so would like more context. But with the information I have been given I would have no issue with it provided the players weren't being forced to join him in sort of way.

So in your view prohibition of any sort of demonstration (sitting, praying, giving the finger, etc.) = forcing someone to make a political statement?