NFC North Pissing Match

[ChicosBailBonds]

One other thing, remember Green Bay is a very, very small market area.  The Twin Cities is no Chicago and a smaller market itself, but much larger than Green Bay--not to mention the wealth of the suburbs.  You are probably correct in saying that they began to play games in Milwaukee to keep attendances up and to save the franchise.  That makes sense considering it is a greater market and a lot of potential gamegoers would more readily go to a game down the road than making the journey up 43 to GB.  This is in opposition to the Dome being in the middle of the largest population density in Minnesota.  I wonder how many people would go to Viking games if they played in Duluth (which according to 2000 census have similar Metropolitan sizes)?  Probably not a whole lot.    

Hard to say....the fact that the Packers are in Green Bay makes then a state wide team.  The state doesn't embrace the Bucks or the Brewers, but they do embrace the Packers....I think this is because they are NOT in Milwaukee.  They are part of a smaller community that resonates to the entire state.

If the Vikings were playing in Duluth and the ONLY team in the state for football, you might be surprised, they might have adopted the same type of state euphoric attitude.  I think a lot of this is also tied in with performance and opposition.

The Packers were good from the start....in their first 27 years, the Packers had ONE losing season including multiple championships. Three decades of winning and championships. That will get people excited whether it's big market or small market.  People latch on to those memories, will hang on to the struggling years and ride them through, etc.  That's in contrast to a team that struggled from the get -go let's say and has some good years, some bad, the fans are much more fickle.

Also, I'd argue the Packers played as really the only team in the state as a football elite.  The Badgers sucked for most years, Marquette was good in the 1930's and had a few decent years beyond that, but not a major power.  Meanwhile, over in the state of Minnesota, the Gophers were winning national championships...5 of them in the 1930's and 40's and winning Big Ten titles in the 1960's. People latched on to the Gophers...when the Viking came around finally, they were an expansion team and awful.  The Vikings, meanwhile only had ONE winning season of their first 7 seasons.  They were a bad franchise to start and that tone resonates with many people.  They finally got rolling for a decade and then went in the crapper again.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I agree with you on all points.

Except for one fact...
#3.

Everyone blames the economy.  The only thing the economy does is make us make a choice of what we desire.  My argument is (with a combination of the Dome, Fantasy hubbub-which is absurd by the way, why not check after the game?) is that the quality of performance, or past performance affects the fan's benefit factor.

If the Vikings had consistently, or even in stretches, produced quality as a franchise--the Dome decision as a place to play is included in the production of quality--then fans would weigh the benifets greater than the cost.  As it is now, it just isn't "worth it" to see the game at the Dome because of all the reasons you defined...

and....

the pathetic perfomance of the Vikings (which will happen once again be this year)

I actually agree with you about the economy, but I think you are missing something.

Football is entertainment, not religion, so there is a lot of competition for those dollars; especially this year when fans have less dollars at their disposal.

People are choosing to do other things with those dollars because the Vikes are not #1 on the list. If the economy was better, people would have more money at their disposal, and entertainment option(s) #2 and #3 might see more $$ dedicated to them.

As far as the fantasy thing, you may think it's lame, but I promise you that it's true. Why do you think they have the Redzone channel on Direct TV?

People could just see highlights after the game, right? Wrong. Hardcore fantasy players and sports bettors LOVE seeing this stuff live. With the new technology and television packages, people are essentially creating their own sportsbooks at home... and they enjoy it more than blowing hundreds/thousands of dollars on going to the games.

I'm not saying this is going to kill NFL attendance... I'm just saying that spending $1600 on season tickets for 2 (plus parking, food, beer, etc.), or spending that money on a home entertainment package isn't a no brainer for people like it was even 10 years ago.

[pillardean]

Hard to say....the fact that the Packers are in Green Bay makes then a state wide team.  The state doesn't embrace the Bucks or the Brewers, but they do embrace the Packers....I think this is because they are NOT in Milwaukee.  They are part of a smaller community that resonates to the entire state.

I agree with what you say, to an extent, about the Bucks; however, the Brewers are a bit different, as there are many fans of baseball.
Last summer as I played on an amateur team, a type of home talent team.  At every venue in the small towns on the western part of the town whether it was Norwalk, Kendall, Coon Valley, Sparta, Augusta, Rib Lake, Mauston, etc. in between innings the Brewers would be played.  You would see hats all over the place, not to mention droves of buses from those town coming to watch them play.  The Brewers were their team.  I recall almost every kid on my little league team having Brewer gear.

The Packers were good from the start....in their first 27 years, the Packers had ONE losing season including multiple championships. Three decades of winning and championships. That will get people excited whether it's big market or small market.  People latch on to those memories, will hang on to the struggling years and ride them through, etc.  That's in contrast to a team that struggled from the get -go let's say and has some good years, some bad, the fans are much more fickle.

Also, I'd argue the Packers played as really the only team in the state as a football elite.  The Badgers sucked for most years, Marquette was good in the 1930's and had a few decent years beyond that, but not a major power.  Meanwhile, over in the state of Minnesota, the Gophers were winning national championships...5 of them in the 1930's and 40's and winning Big Ten titles in the 1960's. People latched on to the Gophers...when the Viking came around finally, they were an expansion team and awful.  The Vikings, meanwhile only had ONE winning season of their first 7 seasons.  They were a bad franchise to start and that tone resonates with many people.  They finally got rolling for a decade and then went in the crapper again.

Now I agree with this and I believe you validated my first point, discussing why the team hasn't sold out this year when I used the "0-4" SB thing, greater than I could have.  Because as you have said, the beginning of the franchise determines the feel of the franchise and how it is viewed.  The Packers have had a storied franchise; therefore, even during the slumping years there still exists reverence and memories that fuel people to watch and care for that team despite being abysmal.  In opposition the Vikings are not a storied franchise--they have not yet won a Championship, they have the "Purple People Eaters" or whatever, but nothing of a consistency to draw upon in length.  By using this as a point you validated that the performances of the past affect the perception of the team now in a benefit scenario; there is no recollection of "glory years" for the Vikings as there is for the Pack.  

If the Vikings were playing in Duluth and the ONLY team in the state for football, you might be surprised, they might have adopted the same type of state euphoric attitude.  I think a lot of this is also tied in with performance and opposition.

You are right about the euphoric attitude, if they were good. The team would have taken off, but since the Vikings are a beleaguered franchise, as you pointed out in great detail, it probably would have fallen apart.

[GGGG]

LOL! They were 12-4 and finished second to the Chiefs who went 13-3. The following season they went 14-2. That also started a run of the AFC going 8-3 in Super Bowls and counting.

They should have been favored (at least the line should have been smaller) because more people should have bet on them because they were the better team. The Packers defense played bad...favre made mistakes...duh...maybe they just weren't that good.

Don't let em off the hook.  The Packers win that game 8 out of 10 times.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with what you say, to an extent, about the Bucks; however, the Brewers are a bit different, as there are many fans of baseball.
Last summer as I played on an amateur team, a type of home talent team.  At every venue in the small towns on the western part of the town whether it was Norwalk, Kendall, Coon Valley, Sparta, Augusta, Rib Lake, Mauston, etc. in between innings the Brewers would be played.  You would see hats all over the place, not to mention droves of buses from those town coming to watch them play.  The Brewers were their team.  I recall almost every kid on my little league team having Brewer gear.
 

Now I agree with this and I believe you validated my first point, discussing why the team hasn't sold out this year when I used the "0-4" SB thing, greater than I could have.  Because as you have said, the beginning of the franchise determines the feel of the franchise and how it is viewed.  The Packers have had a storied franchise; therefore, even during the slumping years there still exists reverence and memories that fuel people to watch and care for that team despite being abysmal.  In opposition the Vikings are not a storied franchise--they have not yet won a Championship, they have the "Purple People Eaters" or whatever, but nothing of a consistency to draw upon in length.  By using this as a point you validated that the performances of the past affect the perception of the team now in a benefit scenario; there is no recollection of "glory years" for the Vikings as there is for the Pack.  

You are right about the euphoric attitude, if they were good. The team would have taken off, but since the Vikings are a beleaguered franchise, as you pointed out in great detail, it probably would have fallen apart.

Maybe now that they're winning, but when I lived there during the 1990's, you couldn't find a Brewers fan outside a 50 mile radius of Milwaukee for the most part.  It was brutal.  The team drew a bit over 1 million fans, ratings were horrific, etc.

[pillardean]

I actually agree with you about the economy, but I think you are missing something.

Football is entertainment, not religion, so there is a lot of competition for those dollars; especially this year when fans have less dollars at their disposal.

People are choosing to do other things with those dollars because the Vikes are not #1 on the list. If the economy was better, people would have more money at their disposal, and entertainment option(s) #2 and #3 might see more $$ dedicated to them.

As far as the fantasy thing, you may think it's lame, but I promise you that it's true. Why do you think they have the Redzone channel on Direct TV?

People could just see highlights after the game, right? Wrong. Hardcore fantasy players and sports bettors LOVE seeing this stuff live. With the new technology and television packages, people are essentially creating their own sportsbooks at home... and they enjoy it more than blowing hundreds/thousands of dollars on going to the games.

I'm not saying this is going to kill NFL attendance... I'm just saying that spending $1600 on season tickets for 2 (plus parking, food, beer, etc.), or spending that money on a home entertainment package isn't a no brainer for people like it was even 10 years ago.

I don't think I am missing it.
When you say that football is a form of entertainment rather than religion, you are right.  

But it is not just entertainment either.  I know I jest with you about the Vikings sucking throughout their franchise history, which is true, but there is another eliment-which Chico's alluded to

The Packers were good from the start....in their first 27 years, the Packers had ONE losing season including multiple championships. Three decades of winning and championships. That will get people excited whether it's big market or small market.  People latch on to those memories, will hang on to the struggling years and ride them through, etc.  That's in contrast to a team that struggled from the get -go let's say and has some good years, some bad, the fans are much more fickle.

those memories and magestry are the key to the equation.  It is something that can connect generations and can be passed from one to the next, an experience rather than entertainment-and their is no cost on experiance and connection.  

Yes there are other forms of connection from a generation that doesn't understand the new-fishing, playing catch, etc.  But one of those for a young Packer fan and a father/mother is going to the games-a constant in a tumultous equation.

Perhaps that doesn't exist for a Viking at the Dome and I find that tragic.  I would say it would be for the best, however, I wouldn't want Rodgers throwing for 350 and 4 TDs when I would take my child to his/her first game.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't let em off the hook.  The Packers win that game 8 out of 10 times.

They key was the first quarter.  GB goes down and scores with no problem on the opening drive...only the 3rd team in Super Bowl history to do that.  All the momentum.  But the GBP defense absolutely no-showed the next series and Denver answered.   How does Green Bay respond....Favre throws an interception....in Green Bay territory.  HUGE Play.   Denver goes down and scores touchdown.

How does Green Bay respond?  Favre fumbles..  Denver scores again, 17-7.  That was the difference in my mind...totally set the tone, told a double digit underdog they could hang with the World Champs, Packers were dazed.  Even though Green Bay came back to tie it (on a stupid play by Denver where they were offsides on a FG attempt giving GB new set of downs and eventually the tying TD) that 1st half gave Denver life and showed what they could do....which is eventually win the game.

GB had no business losing that game.

[NavinRJohnson]

Don't let em off the hook.  The Packers win that game 8 out of 10 times.

On what do you base that opinion? The Packers' rushing defense was 20th in the league that season, and they were going up against the number 1 offense in the league. What Terrel Davis did in that game (157 yds (5.2 avg), 3 TDs) should have come as a surprise to nobody.

[MU B2002]

Not to get off topic from a game that occurred 12 years ago...


Williams wall to play entire season.  Thanks MN courts.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4464771

[GGGG]

On what do you base that opinion? The Packers' rushing defense was 20th in the league that season, and they were going up against the number 1 offense in the league. What Terrel Davis did in that game (157 yds (5.2 avg), 3 TDs) should have come as a surprise to nobody.

See Chicos....defense doesn't step up...turnovers...gave Denver confidence.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think I am missing it.
When you say that football is a form of entertainment rather than religion, you are right.  

But it is not just entertainment either.  I know I jest with you about the Vikings sucking throughout their franchise history, which is true, but there is another eliment-which Chico's alluded to

those memories and magestry are the key to the equation.  It is something that can connect generations and can be passed from one to the next, an experience rather than entertainment-and their is no cost on experiance and connection.  

Yes there are other forms of connection from a generation that doesn't understand the new-fishing, playing catch, etc.  But one of those for a young Packer fan and a father/mother is going to the games-a constant in a tumultous equation.

Perhaps that doesn't exist for a Viking at the Dome and I find that tragic.  I would say it would be for the best, however, I wouldn't want Rodgers throwing for 350 and 4 TDs when I would take my child to his/her first game.

I understand that americans (specifically in the midwest) have sports traditions that are passed from generation to generation. Packers, Buckeyes, Cubs, Notre Dame, etc. all have strong traditions and fanbases that have grown and been passed down.

However, with ALL fans (including teams listed above), going to the game is a form of entertainment, not necessity (doctor, dentist, food, clothing, etc.)

While I agree that many of us approach sports as a "way of life"; for the average family, going to see a game (versus watching on TV for free) is an entertainment luxury item.

I'm not saying that the poor economy is responsible for people not being fans of the Vikings (or any NFL team). I'm saying it is making it harder for a family to justify spending hundreds/thousands of dollars on tickets when they could watch the game at home for free (hmmm, "I'm unsure about my job situation, I guess I'll just watch the games from home this season")

I assume you weren't in New Orleans at the Packers SuperBowl win. I assume you watched it on television. But, it doesn't mean you still don't enjoy the memories of that game and that season. Being at the games isn't a requirement to becoming a fan and enjoying the team.

Let me re-state this again, the economy is not the only reason that NFL teams are struggling to sell out, but to ignore it as a factor is naive.

[NavinRJohnson]

The following season, why do you keep bringing that up?  

Very simple...the following season helped demonstrate just how under appreciated the Broncos were heading into that Super Bowl. They proved to be much better than anyone thought they were, and provided further evidence by going 14-2 and winning the Super Bowl the very next season with virtually an identical roster.

The Packers defense on the other hand saw significant changes from one year to the next, which makes your reverse argument argument stupid.

[NavinRJohnson]

The following season, why do you keep bringing that up?  Every year is a different team.  Different key players, different injuries, different schedule, different conditions.  What they did one year to the next is a non-issue.

totally set the tone, told a double digit underdog they could hang with the World Champs

 -- ChicosBailBonds

I guess what they did from one year to the next is a non-non-issue when it suits your argument.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Not to get off topic from a game that occurred 12 years ago...


Williams wall to play entire season.  Thanks MN courts.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4464771

No matter what NFL team this happend to it would have been ruled upon by the FEDERAL court in MN.  The 8th district court handles all cases and appeals dealing with the NFL.  One judge is from Minnesota, one is from Missouri and the other is from Arkansas.  Has nothing to do with MN courts.  I don't like it being a Bears fan but it is far from a homer ruling.

[pillardean]

Let me re-state this again, the economy is not the only reason that NFL teams are struggling to sell out, but to ignore it as a factor is naive.

You know what...if I wasn't so broke--I'd go to the GB and Viking game in Minneapolis to prove you wrong.  Instead I'm going over to my buddies house and watch the game.

It was fun arguing anyway.

[pillardean]

No matter what NFL team this happend to it would have been ruled upon by the FEDERAL court in MN.  The 8th district court handles all cases and appeals dealing with the NFL.  One judge is from Minnesota, one is from Missouri and the other is from Arkansas.  Has nothing to do with MN courts.  I don't like it being a Bears fan but it is far from a homer ruling.

Really? I don't believe you.  

Homer ruling. 
The season is tarnished.
Asteriks, where the f*** are the asteriks?

[MU B2002]

No matter what NFL team this happend to it would have been ruled upon by the FEDERAL court in MN.  The 8th district court handles all cases and appeals dealing with the NFL.  One judge is from Minnesota, one is from Missouri and the other is from Arkansas.  Has nothing to do with MN courts.  I don't like it being a Bears fan but it is far from a homer ruling.

Actually it has nothing to do with me being a Bears fan....


"a three-judge panel of the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld earlier decisions from a federal district court -- including one that says the remaining legal issues must be resolved in state court."  Just stating the facts. referring to the article.


Edit my word choice, as I don't know if the article is fact. 

[Jay Bee]

The only thing this thread has taught me is that people are REALLY jealous of the Vikings, REALLY are sadden by Favre coming here, and that MU Creative Writing degrees are extraordinarily easy to obtain.

Do some of you honestly believe that the fact that NFL tickets sales in numerous markets are down this year has little to nothing to do with the economy?  You're freaking NUTS.  "Uhh, no dude.  It's because the Vikings lost four super bowls and don't have a storied history of championships.. therefore generations can't pass down the love of the franchise... duhhh..". 

Wow.
Anyone play Madden online?  I did for the first time in years the other night.. it was aiiight... I'll school anyone tonight. 
PS - if anyone is in the Twin Cities and wants two nice lowers for the Twins game TONIGHT, they are your's for free - I flat out need to work.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

including one that says the remaining legal issues must be resolved in state court."
 

We all know how the state court will rule....it is a good thing that Olin Kreutz kicks their as***s every year.

[Jay Bee]

If Kreutz was only as good at football as he is at punching his teammates...

[SaintPaulWarrior]

If Kreutz was only as good at football as he is at punching his teammates...

6 Pro Bowls and we all know that his Washington teammate deserved to be punched.

[wadesworld]

The only thing this thread has taught me is that people are REALLY jealous of the Vikings, REALLY are sadden by Favre coming here, and that MU Creative Writing degrees are extraordinarily easy to obtain.

Anyone play Madden online?  I did for the first time in years the other night.. it was aiiight... I'll school anyone tonight. 
PS - if anyone is in the Twin Cities and wants two nice lowers for the Twins game TONIGHT, they are your's for free - I flat out need to work.

HAHA!  We're jealous of the VIQUEENS?!  That's one of the funniest jokes I've ever heard!  What in the WORLD is there to be jealous about?!  Their SWEET dome?!  HAH!  Their HUGELY successful franchise?!  HAH!  Again, VaJay Jay, I will ask you: Have you ever even seen your beloved Vikes in a Super Bowl in your entire life?!  I KNOW you have never seen them WIN one, since they NEVER have, so I don't even need to ask that question.  Have you seen them in any NFC Championship game that they did NOT lose 41-0 in?!  Are we supposed to be jealous of your SWEET team colors?!  HAH!  Your fantastic fans?!  How long is your waiting line for season tickets, VaJay Jay?!  Oh, you don't have one?!  HAH!  Gosh DANG, I am SOOOOOO jealous of the Vikings!

Oh, and you are challenging anyone to a game of Madden online TONIGHT, but you state that you just flat out need to work TONIGHT?  Nice.  Making some sick beatz?  Is 50 Cent on his way over?  Give him my best...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

So the vikings have terrible fans that aren't dedicated enough to sell out the games.

But, they have such diehard fans in the legal community that the local judges/lawyers are going to let the players get off so they can keep playing for the vikings.

Makes perfect sense... errr....

[Jay Bee]

HAHA!  We're jealous of the VIQUEENS?!  That's one of the funniest jokes I've ever heard!  What in the WORLD is there to be jealous about?!  Their SWEET dome?!  HAH!  Their HUGELY successful franchise?!  HAH!  Again, VaJay Jay, I will ask you: Have you ever even seen your beloved Vikes in a Super Bowl in your entire life?!  I KNOW you have never seen them WIN one, since they NEVER have, so I don't even need to ask that question.  Have you seen them in any NFC Championship game that they did NOT lose 41-0 in?!  Are we supposed to be jealous of your SWEET team colors?!  HAH!  Your fantastic fans?!  How long is your waiting line for season tickets, VaJay Jay?!  Oh, you don't have one?!  HAH!  Gosh DANG, I am SOOOOOO jealous of the Vikings!

Oh, and you are challenging anyone to a game of Madden online TONIGHT, but you state that you just flat out need to work TONIGHT?  Nice.  Making some sick beatz?  Is 50 Cent on his way over?  Give him my best...

  Wad's did you have a little Favre poster in your room growing up?  I find it strange that an individual such as yourself, who is comfortable with a ball gag in his mouth three nights a week at Le Cage, is inferring that purple is a bad color.  
  Yes, I am ready to play Madden TONIGHT and I need to work TONIGHT.  Maybe I work for Madden or Microsoft.  Maybe I need to get some stuff done and therefore don't want to go to the Twins game for 3 hours.  Maybe my TONIGHT doesn't end at your bedtime of 8pm, and therefore I could get work done and play Madden.  Maybe Erin Rodgers winning percentage of less than 40 is horrible.

[wadesworld]

So the vikings have terrible fans that aren't dedicated enough to sell out the games.

But, they have such diehard fans in the legal community that the local judges/lawyers are going to let the players get off so they can keep playing for the vikings.

Makes perfect sense... errr....

Because I was the one who made both of those claims?  Makes perfect sense...errr...