We are simply not talented

[mviale]

The reason we were embarrassed last night is simple...Crean is a lousy recruiter. You cannot look at those two teams and honestly say we have even near the talent that Louisville has.

Crean is constantly drawing raves from national writers who don't follow the team for his recruiting. Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school? Who? James? He was a fallback plan when that kid from Brother Rice signed with North Carolina? McNeal? He was offered by Dayton. Hayward didn't start on his high school team. Cubillan was the last of his HS team to sign with a team. Barro didn't play in high school. Acker is a 5'7" transfer from Ball State.

I mean, where does this idea that Crean is a good recruiter come from? Where?!?!

You want to know what a recruiting "bump" is from a Final Four appearance? Take a look at Louisville.

I will grant you that our junior class is a decent class -- not great as I don't think any of them would start for Louisville, but after our FF in 2003, here are our classes:

2003 class
James Matthews -- GONE
Carlton Christian -- GONE
Dameon Mason -- GONE
Brandon Bell -- GONE
(AN ENTIRE YEAR OF RECRUITING A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!!!)
 
2004
Amoroso -- GONE
Kinsella
Lott (JC)
 
2005
James
McNeal
Matthews
Burke
Mortensen -- GONE
 
2006
Hayward
Cubillian
Blackledge (JC)


We looked like a JV team last night and the reason is that we have a bunch of JV recruits.

Frankly, with the post season performance we've had the last 4 years and the 4 routs in league play, I suspect that a half-empty Bradley Center will be the rule rather than the exception the rest of the way.

You need a new hobby

[Final Four or Bust]

Crean is constantly drawing raves from national writers who don't follow the team for his recruiting. Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school? Who? James? He was a fallback plan when that kid from Brother Rice signed with North Carolina? McNeal? He was offered by Dayton. Hayward didn't start on his high school team. Cubillan was the last of his HS team to sign with a team. Barro didn't play in high school. Acker is a 5'7" transfer from Ball State.

Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong.  James was never a fallback plan.  The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James.  And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa.  The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.

Hayward was one of the most sought after swingmen in the country the year he came out.  You can talk about not starting all you want but he was a bonafide top 100 recruit with offers from some big name schools.

Facts wrong?  Umm, I remember the recruitment of James pretty well -- he was highly rated but falling through the cracks.  On signing day it was between us and Purdue.  MSU recruited Travis Walton (who we were also in on that year and we lost after Frasor committed to UNC -- although I think we liked James better than Walton).  I don't recall OSU as being a viable option.  Indiana never recruited him until the end -- and James wanted to go to IU badly but was overlooked and that was why he focused on Purdue.  (There are stories about it). I don't recall Iowa at all.  So lets get real -- we were all online here watching and hoping James would pick MU over Purdue (who recently just hired Painter).  THAT was the battle.

Hayward is a great player, my favorite on the team, but he was a late bloomer who was recruited by some smaller Northeastern schools for the most part.  UConn got involved a bit in the end, but it wasn't between UConn and Mu.   I am glad we got him, but he wasn't considered elite, at least in the beginning of recruiting.  He shot up.

Those who have been around here long enough know I am critical for not getting the "numbers" recruits -- the 4-5 star players.  James was certainly one of those, but the only one in range.  We never got that great bump (although the "big three" was close).

[augoman]

Agreed, every year we are told about the outstanding class we have coming, but it consists of 3 stars and less, while Madison gets multiple 4 stars (albeit mostly haybalers).  DJ was the only consensus top 100 in that class, but McNeal's stock rose greatly right at the end, and some had Wes pretty high.

[🏀]

I think the classes generally are great, because they keep getting better and better in quality.

Let's put everything in retrospect, our classes as a whole have progressing better and better. We used to get a star mixed in with a grab bag. Then we grabbed the Amigos. I'm not complaining about a class of LH, Coobs, and Mo, not great but better than previous years. With the 2010-2011 classes mixed up, they look pretty good. SC, Mbakwe, and two McD's finalists.

We may be expecting too much recruiting wise to be pulling in blue chippers every year. However, the quality of recruiting classes under TC has increade

[bma725]

OSU was the second school to offer James, he'd gotten an offer from Jim O'Brien and the recruitment continued when Matta got there because Matta had been recruiting him at Xavier.  He was at one point considered to be OSU's top priority at guard in that class, but then Matta realized he could get Conley in the next class.  Notre Dame wanted him bad, but wanted him to make a decision right away, and he chose not to do so.  Same thing with MSU, they wanted a commit during his visit to East Lansing, and James refused to do so that's when they went to Travis Walton, he was the back up plan to James.  Iowa was also in on him early, because of Alford's connections to the state of Indiana.

His final two choices were MU and Purdue, but it wasn't because he wasn't hotly recruited there were a lot of schools that wanted him to come play for them and despite PRN's implication MU did get him over other schools.

[bma725]

Agreed, every year we are told about the outstanding class we have coming, but it consists of 3 stars and less, while Madison gets multiple 4 stars (albeit mostly haybalers).  DJ was the only consensus top 100 in that class, but McNeal's stock rose greatly right at the end, and some had Wes pretty high.

Not true.  All 3 of those guys were listed in the RSCI, the composite ranking system that takes the rankings of at least 5 different recruiting services.  They were all consensus top 100 guys.  McNeal was ranked in all of them anywhere from 36 to 99.  Matthews was listed in every individual ranking as well anywhere from 40 to 95.

[Frozen Caveman Coach]

When I inquired about season tix in fall '05, a student ticket agent told me MU had the 4th rated class nationally - no lie!  Either some service had them 4?  or it was another PR stunt by Crean and the Athletic Dept ala "new attendance record in the state of WI" for the 10th time in 3 years.

[🏀]

When I inquired about season tix in fall '05, a student ticket agent told me MU had the 4th rated class nationally - no lie!  Either some service had them 4?  or it was another PR stunt by Crean and the Athletic Dept ala "new attendance record in the state of WI" for the 10th time in 3 years.

The Amigos all committed early, and yes MU was ranked very high for a recruiting class. However, after all the dominoes fell, they were merely a Top 15 recruiting class.

[MarquetteVol]

For a team that plays in the best conference in the country, has numerous games televised on national tv and a prominent history in NCAA basketball, I still do not understand why MU cannot, on a continuing basis, be in contention for a top 50 recruit.  Yes this year, we were in for Iman Shumpert and came close, but did not close the deal.  Nick Williams may move up based upon his senior year and T. Taylor has some height at point.  By now you noticied all are guards and not frontcourt. If you look at these upper echelon players and their schools of potential interest, MU is hardly ever considered.  Maybe the staff has the fear of the one year/two year up and out, but at least make an effort.  Why are these players not including MU in their interests? I have no clue. With James, Matthews and McNeal all gone, 2009 will be the make or break recruiting year, since we actually in the running for some playmakers, to include Jamil Wilson (a must), Maurice Creek, Dominic Cheek and I believe Flavian Davis, who may be 2010 (?). 

I've seen this very question posed on the St. John's and DePaul boards over and over and over again for the past 6 years. There are two programs that would give both of the proverbial nuts to be in the kind of shape MU is in.

Listen, I'm disappointed that we're 6-4 in the BE. But, this conference is brutal. Freakin' South Florida is hanging around against Georgetown tonight. If you put together the old CUSA right now, we'd beat everyone but Louisville and Memphis. However, the Big East is no CUSA. It's brutal, guys. There's about 12 above-average teams in this league. Play at Cincinnati on a Saturday morning and at home 48 hours later against Louisville. That's the hardest stretch we'd ever, ever have a few years ago. Now, it's the norm. Thursday night game on national tv against UL...then go to UCONN for a Sunday matinee. Good God.

My main criticism of this team is that I'm very surprised to see us blown out in these games. Even when we sucked, we always managed to play up to the competition in bigtime games. I have to wonder, though, if the BE schedule is too brutal to not lay eggs at times. It's hard to believe right now, there are people that wanted us to play a harder non-conference schedule. These guys would all be on IVs by now, and not just DJ. This is plenty tough enough for my taste.

[patso]

Stop already! The season is not over and it has already had enjoyable moments. We beat Notre Dame and Wisconsin. I have enjoyed the play of the three guards, Wes, Jerel and Dominic as well as  Lazard ,Barro.and the other contributors. It should be fun to be a fan.
Enjoy the high points and understand the low points as a time when the kids were not at their best. This is a high time at Marquette as I see it. Crean is a positive recruiter and a good coach. Do you people remember the lean years? Do you see what is happening at St. Johns.  Enjoy basketball for basketball. We will one day be a domonant team perhaps this year. Ring on Ahoya.

[MarquetteFan94]

When I inquired about season tix in fall '05, a student ticket agent told me MU had the 4th rated class nationally - no lie!  Either some service had them 4?  or it was another PR stunt by Crean and the Athletic Dept ala "new attendance record in the state of WI" for the 10th time in 3 years.

Yep, Crean was behind that for sure.  It actually may have been Crean posing as a student manning the phone....conspiracy surrounds this program.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Agreed, every year we are told about the outstanding class we have coming, but it consists of 3 stars and less, while Madison gets multiple 4 stars (albeit mostly haybalers).  DJ was the only consensus top 100 in that class, but McNeal's stock rose greatly right at the end, and some had Wes pretty high.

I was going to remain out, but this post has to be corrected.

Wes, DJ and McNeal were all CONSENSUS top 100 players.

http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2005.htm


Trevor just missed out on being consensus (one service had him outside the top 100)

[ChicosBailBonds]

When I inquired about season tix in fall '05, a student ticket agent told me MU had the 4th rated class nationally - no lie!  Either some service had them 4?  or it was another PR stunt by Crean and the Athletic Dept ala "new attendance record in the state of WI" for the 10th time in 3 years.

 


All depends on which service you use.  They were rated 9th best class by RSCI that year which adds the services together

http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/The_Winners/2005_Winners/2005_winners.html


Some individual services had the class higher and some lower.

Hoop Scoop had them 10th

Is it a leap of faith that someone had them at 4th?  Really?   I think you're reaching...plenty to criticize, this isn't one of them.

[muPARTY]

Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong.  James was never a fallback plan.  The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James.  And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa.  The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.

I'm going to nit-pick this without seeing the 3rd page of posts...
he wasn't offered by Notre Dame or Indiana.  that was a huge story his freshman yr and why many people called for Mike Davis to be fired from Indiana.  they didn't go after him.  a response in another thread said they thought Matt Painter of Purdue make an offer, but they didn't think it was valient effort.


I've stated this in 3? other threads, name one big name recruit Crean has gotten and had to work for???
and remember, D. Wade was offered only by MU, DePaul, and IL State because of awful grades.

i'm talking about him pulling a Rick Barnes and going into ACC country to get Kevin Durant to go to Texas.  or Thad Matta going into the heart of Indiana high school basketball and getting the most sought after center in years to go to Ohio State, which had been riddled with scandle and was seen as a Big Ten mid-low pack team.

[muPARTY]

....Listen, I'm disappointed that we're 6-4 in the BE. But, this conference is brutal. Freakin' South Florida is hanging around against Georgetown tonight. If you put together the old CUSA right now, we'd beat everyone but Louisville and Memphis. However, the Big East is no CUSA. It's brutal, guys. There's about 12 above-average teams in this league. Play at Cincinnati on a Saturday morning and at home 48 hours later against Louisville. That's the hardest stretch we'd ever, ever have a few years ago. Now, it's the norm. Thursday night game on national tv against UL...then go to UCONN for a Sunday matinee. Good God.
...

i agree with your post.  my problem is TC hasn't built a team that can be top team in the conference.  they may flirt with being an elite team in the conference, but does anyone seriously believe this team can be at the top of the Big East and then make a run through the tournament (and i mean did anyone think this 6 months ago, not after this downfall??)  i thought they'd be good, but 1st or 2nd in the Big East, nope.  a serious Final Four contender, nope.  it's not that their players aren't talent, but the team lacks the right talent to compete.  it took Duke shooting lights-out from the 3 to beat a depleted UNC team.  MU would have to have games just like Duke, but every single night to be a true contender. 

you can't except any team to go through a season without have some off days.  the great ones, NCAA title worthy teams, are able to overcome them to still win.  Marquette has proven they don't have those pieces to be able to change their game when it goes bad.  just look at the starters, 3 of them are undersized and poor-decent shooting ability.  there is no post game from the big guys who are outmatched every game by centers and power forwards who excell at that position.  and our best player is being asked to play out of postition, and in turn becomes grossly undersized and overmatched.

[bilsu]

I do believe Crean is a great recruiter. He is recruiting for a school that is not going to get the high profile recruits that a Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, UCLA, Louisville, etc are going to get. MU is also not going to admit recruits that do not fit in academically or socially. Look at this year's class. He had some very big disappointments in losing his primary targets, but still came up with a very good class. Now he has managed to assemble an unbalanced team, but remember 6 months ago he expected to have Mbakwe and Saunders on this team. Both of those players would have added a lot of athleticism to our front line.

[bma725]

Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong.  James was never a fallback plan.  The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James.  And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa.  The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.

I'm going to nit-pick this without seeing the 3rd page of posts...
he wasn't offered by Notre Dame or Indiana.  that was a huge story his freshman yr and why many people called for Mike Davis to be fired from Indiana.  they didn't go after him.  a response in another thread said they thought Matt Painter of Purdue make an offer, but they didn't think it was valient effort.


I've stated this in 3? other threads, name one big name recruit Crean has gotten and had to work for???
and remember, D. Wade was offered only by MU, DePaul, and IL State because of awful grades.

i'm talking about him pulling a Rick Barnes and going into ACC country to get Kevin Durant to go to Texas.  or Thad Matta going into the heart of Indiana high school basketball and getting the most sought after center in years to go to Ohio State, which had been riddled with scandle and was seen as a Big Ten mid-low pack team.

He was offered by both Notre Dame and Indiana.  Notre Dame pulled the offer after he refused to commit early and ended up signing Kyle mcIlarney.  Indiana came in at the last minute with an offer.  That was why it was such bs when everyone blamed Davis for not offering him.  Davis had extended the offer but by that time it was too late.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong.  James was never a fallback plan.  The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James.  And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa.  The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.

I'm going to nit-pick this without seeing the 3rd page of posts...
he wasn't offered by Notre Dame or Indiana.  that was a huge story his freshman yr and why many people called for Mike Davis to be fired from Indiana.  they didn't go after him.  a response in another thread said they thought Matt Painter of Purdue make an offer, but they didn't think it was valient effort.


I've stated this in 3? other threads, name one big name recruit Crean has gotten and had to work for???
and remember, D. Wade was offered only by MU, DePaul, and IL State because of awful grades.

i'm talking about him pulling a Rick Barnes and going into ACC country to get Kevin Durant to go to Texas.  or Thad Matta going into the heart of Indiana high school basketball and getting the most sought after center in years to go to Ohio State, which had been riddled with scandle and was seen as a Big Ten mid-low pack team.

I'll tell you what muPARTY, show me the last MU coach that has done that in the last 25 years and you might have a case. 

But if you must, Steve Novak was offered by Illinois and Florida, he chose MU.

There's one but he didn't "go into another territory" to find him.  Mbakwe was offered by several Big Ten schools, including his own state school....Crean took him out of there. 

Tyshawn Taylor...offered by Kansas, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Missouri, Virginia, St. John's, Cincinnati, West Virginia and Virginia Tech....signed with Marquette.

Nick Williams from Alabama....MU goes into SEC country and grabs this kid away from Auburn and Alabama who were still trying to get him out of his verbal only a few weeks before signing period.


I could go on


Get your story correct...Wade's grades weren't awful, he had issues with his test scores.

[Frozen Caveman Coach]

Watching Duke play last night reminded me of the style MU plays.  One big difference, they can knock it down from 3.  Crean needs to recruit or develop those type of players or change his free lance system.  Everyone complains about results and individual players, but the wrong players are asked to play in the wrong system and that is the root of the problem.  Relying on transition baskets and penetration by undersized players is not offense.  Our guys have to work so much harder for good looks as the style of offense allows the defense to so often maintain good postion in half court sets.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Watching Duke play last night reminded me of the style MU plays.  One big difference, they can knock it down from 3.  Crean needs to recruit or develop those type of players or change his free lance system.  Everyone complains about results and individual players, but the wrong players are asked to play in the wrong system and that is the root of the problem.  Relying on transition baskets and penetration by undersized players is not offense.  Our guys have to work so much harder for good looks as the style of offense allows the defense to so often maintain good postion in half court sets.

Agreed, then again this was the Duke team we were down 1 possession to with 15 seconds to play....we can play and beat anyone.  Same players, same coaching staff.

[HarveysWallbangers]

Good points. I also think Duke is playing leaps and bounds better than they were in November.

Paulus is a hugely improved player -- and not just because he had a career shooting night last night. I thought he was a complete bust as a freshman. Somebody on that staff is doing something right with him.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I look forward to reading hysterical responses to SilverWarrior's contention on the Lonely Hearts board that our talent is not as good as advertised.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415#s=415&f=2850&t=2017678

[ChicosBailBonds]

No thanks, that would require me to visit that board, cause sponsors to be seen, etc.  I hear they do a terrific job, but I'll take a pass.   

[4everwarriors]

Rican. But, its not because I think they do a terrific job. I like Silver, but, the board has an agenda that borders on gestapo censorship.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Rican. But, its not because I think they do a terrific job. I like Silver, but, the board has an agenda that borders on gestapo censorship.

I know that...I've been banned by that board for over a year! I do read stuff over there, though...particularly NateDogg's stuff.