The Sky is Not Falling if Pitt Leaves....

[duanewade]

It’s inevitable that the Little 11 (I slight them as I think they are a fraud as when the NCAA allowed each team to add another football game they added another bye game instead of scheduling another Big 10 game and all of their schedules tend to be very soft non-conference games) will expand to 12 to get the extra revenue of a championship game in football.  If it’s Pitt so be it….we knew they were going to try to raid the Big East or Missouri for the 12th team.  I thought it was arrogant of the Big ten to say they were going to expand to 14 when they already don’t play enough conference games. 

Big East football with or without Pitt is pretty mediocre and will remain only 8 teams no matter how you slice it as there are no other great football programs they can raid.  What makes most sense is we raid Memphis who much like all Big East teams is mediocre at football and phenomenal at basketball.  Then the Big 10 will have 12 teams like the rest of the BCS conferences except the PAC 10.  Someday maybe the Pac 10 will raid Nevada, New Mexico, Hawaii, BYU? (all hypothetical’s) which will water down their football some which is why you don’t hear much about Pac 10 expansion talk as the conference is so top heavy with USC and everyone else competing for 2nd….Washington with Steve Sarkasian will make them a formidable program in the future as well.

Please use rational/fact based reactions to this if true.  The Big East will obviously not pick Xavier as they don’t have football and are already in that media market with Cincy.  ND does not play half their schedule against the Big East like one poster said….they play three Big 10 teams, three Pac 10 teams and three Big East teams every year as well as an occasional ACC , SEC or Big 12 team.  People hate ND so much that they slight them with irrational talk….love them or hate them they have been quantitatively deemed the nation’s most popular overall team and first or 2nd highest valued program by various independent studies.  Their new president is very pro football and they will not join the Big East and will probably stay Independent as long as they want to…..they have enough pull to later join any conference if they want to (even the ACC). 

Big East football will not destroy the best basketball conference in the country by going separate from the 8 bball only schools to pick up say Temple, New Hampshire, etc.  and some other low programs to expand for the sake of expanding their football to 10 or 12 when there is no chance of that being a lucrative football conference. 

In reality the culture and climate in the south and west provides a bundle of strong high school football programs and talent that gives the SEC, Big 12 and others an advantage in football.  In inner city markets like Chicago, Philly and NYC  high school football is almost non-existent (Chicago Public League is a prime example with horrible facilities, coaches and tradition) instead basketball is king with boat loads of great players in these highly populated, cold segments of the population.  This fact has allowed Big East basketball to be the clear winner during the winters and adding Memphis to replace to Pittsburgh would be a wash if not a slight improvement  for the Beast BBall (as Pitt has never been to a Final 4 and Memphis obviously has but have trouble closing out 10 point leads against Kansas).   Also don’t be surprised if BC decides to come back to join the Beast instead and then the ACC would grab Memphis after losing in their attempt to entice ND first.

The bright side of this is we may be able to land the last big upside uncommitted big in Mo Walker who is a big who was thought to be a near Pitt lock.  Maybe with them joining the Big 10 might be enough to help us land him. 

Marquette is about to go on an incredible run of great teams year in and year out so enjoy the ride….the sky is not falling. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

If they go to 12, it's manageable.  If they go to 14, look out because the ACC will follow suit, the Big 12 and Pac Ten will expand, the dominoes will fall everywhere.

It all depends how many they add.

[chapman]

ND does not play half their schedule against the Big East like one poster said….they play three

I said they play half the Big East teams, which is a slight exagerration but practically true.  My point is that it's not scheduling that prevents them from joining the Big East becaus the small size of the conference allows plenty of flexibility in scheduling non-conference opponents.  Regardless, I think they're a worthwhile enough member based on name and money to want to keep around for the other sports.

[duanewade]

If they go to 12, it's manageable.  If they go to 14, look out because the ACC will follow suit, the Big 12 and Pac Ten will expand, the dominoes will fall everywhere.

It all depends how many they add.

You do love drama Chicos....I think you secretly hope it all this does happen as you seem excited by it with two separate posts on the matter spelling out all the postential doom and gloom scenarios of how the Big East will end and we'll be stuck just playing DePaul, Dayton, and Detroit-Mercy as Villanova will up their football and the ACC and Big 10 will expand to 14 or 16 teams.

Of course you once posted that you had a hunch that Ty Willingham was going to do some great things at Washington.....so hopefully this latest hunch turns out like that one.  

[TallTitan34]

I think if Pitt does join the Big 10, Jamie Dixon is gone when the first big job opening comes along.  He has been pretty vocal with his unhappiness in moving to the Big 10 as New York is his recruiting hotspot.  Couple that with the fact his name is always mentioned for big time openings I cant see anyway he stays.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You do love drama Chicos....I think you secretly hope it all this does happen as you seem excited by it with two separate posts on the matter spelling out all the postential doom and gloom scenarios of how the Big East will end and we'll be stuck just playing DePaul, Dayton, and Detroit-Mercy as Villanova will up their football and the ACC and Big 10 will expand to 14 or 16 teams.

Of course you once posted that you had a hunch that Ty Willingham was going to do some great things at Washington.....so hopefully this latest hunch turns out like that one.  

It's amazing how many whack job wanna be psychiatrists we have here who can predict what people are thinking or feeling.  Yeah, I'm secretly for this.  Get a grip.  MU going to the Big East was one of the greatest things to ever happen to this program.  The destruction of it would be devastating if it's a huge alignment shift.  If it's only 1 team, then no big deal.  If it means dominoes falling everywhere, that's not good in a college football world when we don't play football.  I hate to be bearer of reality for you.  If the Big Ten goes to 12 teams, this isn't a crusher.  If they go to 14, that poses many potential problems.

And yes, I did say that about Willingham, of course I also said Charlie would fail at Notre Dame.  Ty doesn't cheat, and that's his biggest downfall.  You can't be right all the time.  

Of course you said last year that there is no reason why we can't win a national title in the next 5 years.  I hope you're right, but something tells me you won't be. I appreciate your optimism.  I'm glad you spent all that time writing a blazing letter to the IU President, though.  That was classic and hopefully therapeutic for you.

I hope Cottingham has a plan.

[Husker4MU]

I have no clue why the Big 11 (or anyone else) would elect to expand to 14 teams.  Scheduling nightmares, further eroding of existing rivalries, more schlubs to split the money with, etc.  I don't see the value.  Getting to 12 is huge b/c of the FB title game, but the leap to 14 doesn't add anything.

[duanewade]

It's amazing how many whack job wanna be psychiatrists we have here who can predict what people are thinking or feeling.  Yeah, I'm secretly for this.  Get a grip.  MU going to the Big East was one of the greatest things to ever happen to this program.  The destruction of it would be devastating if it's a huge alignment shift.  If it's only 1 team, then no big deal.  If it means dominoes falling everywhere, that's not good in a college football world when we don't play football.  I hate to be bearer of reality for you.  If the Big Ten goes to 12 teams, this isn't a crusher.  If they go to 14, that poses many potential problems.

And yes, I did say that about Willingham, of course I also said Charlie would fail at Notre Dame.  Ty doesn't cheat, and that's his biggest downfall.  You can't be right all the time.  

Of course you said last year that there is no reason why we can't win a national title in the next 5 years.  I hope you're right, but something tells me you won't be. I appreciate your optimism.  I'm glad you spent all that time writing a blazing letter to the IU President, though.  That was classic and hopefully therapeutic for you.

I hope Cottingham has a plan.

Perfect….if that’s the reality then let’s start calling our old MCC contacts and get the conference moving forward now.  I’ll call Butler, Evansville and Loyola Chicago and you call St. Louis, Dayton and St. Ambrose.  Buzz will leave for another program and Vander Blue will transfer after his freshman year.  Of course you’ll be bored silly as the message boards will dry up as no one will care about Div III MU basketball again.  Of course when Tom Crean gets fired from IU in a couple of years he’ll come back to us as the coach again as no one else will want him.  Now that is drama!  But probably as unlikely as your scenario of everyone going to 14 teams.   

BTW I’m sure you knew Charlie Weis with his great resume coming out of the Patriots was going to fail….I don’t recall that conversation….it was clear that Willingham was a dud based on what he did at ND but there was no way to know Charlie Weis was at that time. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Greenstein from the Chicago Tribune has several articles on why going to 14 might be what the Big Ten chooses to do.  In the end = money.  How much more they can get from the networks.

[TheGym]

Greenstein from the Chicago Tribune has several articles on why going to 14 might be what the Big Ten chooses to do.  In the end = money.  How much more they can get from the networks.

I did not read the articles, but I don't see how going to 14 teams would increase the revenue.  You would add one game per week but include 2 additional teams to split the pie.  That one extra game per week would need to bring in a pig payday to bridge the gap.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I did not read the articles, but I don't see how going to 14 teams would increase the revenue.  You would add one game per week but include 2 additional teams to split the pie.  That one extra game per week would need to bring in a pig payday to bridge the gap.

I believe it's due to the overall package they can get from ESPN plus the increased advertising and subscription revenue from the Big Ten Network. 

[TheGym]

I believe it's due to the overall package they can get from ESPN plus the increased advertising and subscription revenue from the Big Ten Network. 

I agree, it has to come from the Big Ten Network and ESPN.  The financial analysis would be interesting.  However, going from 11 to 12 teams adds one game per week (i.e. they eliminate the bye week) and get a title game with only splitting the revenue with one additional team.  Adding two teams to get only one game per week makes the hurdle more difficult.

I am not saying you are wrong I just think it make the argument more difficult by going 14 versus going to 12.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Perfect….if that’s the reality then let’s start calling our old MCC contacts and get the conference moving forward now.  I’ll call Butler, Evansville and Loyola Chicago and you call St. Louis, Dayton and St. Ambrose.  Buzz will leave for another program and Vander Blue will transfer after his freshman year.  Of course you’ll be bored silly as the message boards will dry up as no one will care about Div III MU basketball again.  Of course when Tom Crean gets fired from IU in a couple of years he’ll come back to us as the coach again as no one else will want him.  Now that is drama!  But probably as unlikely as your scenario of everyone going to 14 teams.   

BTW I’m sure you knew Charlie Weis with his great resume coming out of the Patriots was going to fail….I don’t recall that conversation….it was clear that Willingham was a dud based on what he did at ND but there was no way to know Charlie Weis was at that time. 

My scenario, for the record, isn't that everyone goes to 14.  I said, IF THE BIG TEN goes to 14, then the dominoes start to fall.  If they stick at 12, then things are manageable.  That is the key, how many teams do they go to.  Your other nonsense about DIII and Loyola...whatever.  Talk about building a strawman and going extremely overboard to represent your point.  More than likely, MU would be in an A-10 situation not a MCC situation.  Or, if Nova and G'Town don't step up in football, there is a tremendous opportunity for basketball Catholic League.  Again, only if the Big Ten goes to more than 14 and the dominoes elsewhere start.

The reason is simple duane (why do you spell his name wrong, by the way), the liklihood would be that if they go to 14, they are also going to steal at least one more from the Big East.  Rutgers or Syracuse (or both).  The other scenario is Missouri and one Big East school.  That would leave the Big East with just 5 football teams.  Can't be a league.  So now they have to go get teams.  Adding Memphis and ECU isn't going to keep their BCS slot in tact.  The other football schools in the Big East know this and would be trying to realign.  Louisville would piss themselves at that point to get into the SEC, they would try like crazy.  West Virginia would as well. 

You must be a closet ND football fan to have so many emotions going on for ND right now.  For the very reason you don't judge Buzz for 4 or 5 years, you don't judge Weiss either.  That's my philosophy.  Weiss won with Willingham's players and couldn't do crap with his own.

[duanewade]

there is a tremendous opportunity for basketball Catholic League.  Again, only if the Big Ten goes to more than 14 and the dominoes elsewhere start.

Yes a tremendous opportunity....nothing like an all catholic league....but worse yet an all catholic league minus Villanova and Georgetown.  That wreaks of low mid-major and the end of Marquette basketball as we know it. 

BTW Ty Willingham's recruiting classes were some of the worst in ND football's history.  And yes he did cheat those who hired him for millions out of money in that he was a lazy recruiter who sparsely contacted players who later indicated they were waiting for ND to show some interest.  In addition he was terrible with the alumni, media and game planning and execution.  The AD at Washington lost his job for hiring him and the Washington alumni couldn't fire him early on as to risk getting called racist like ND did after they did it in year 3.  Instead they had to go winless in their 4th and final year with him which caused millions in lost revenue as seats were sparsely filled and put the re-building off an additional year.  Please post your praise for Willingham and his recruiting abilities on the ND and Washington boards as I'm sure you'll get chains of 600 responses calling you unthinkable names.  I will agree that when it was clear that Weis was a dog too they should of fired him in year three also to be consistent.... instead they lost two additional years. 

[GGGG]

It’s inevitable that the Little 11 (I slight them as I think they are a fraud as when the NCAA allowed each team to add another football game they added another bye game instead of scheduling another Big 10 game and all of their schedules tend to be very soft non-conference games)

The only conference that didn't was the Pac Ten.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree, it has to come from the Big Ten Network and ESPN.  The financial analysis would be interesting.  However, going from 11 to 12 teams adds one game per week (i.e. they eliminate the bye week) and get a title game with only splitting the revenue with one additional team.  Adding two teams to get only one game per week makes the hurdle more difficult.

I am not saying you are wrong I just think it make the argument more difficult by going 14 versus going to 12.

Honestly, it's not my argument, I think it's theirs.  The only reason they would entertain 14 would be to grow a much bigger pie.   I'm not sure I'm understanding your 1 game per week comment. Yes, if you add 1 team you add one more game in conference.  If they add 3 teams, they're getting more than one game per week, especially during non conference where they are getting 14 games per week.  Plus they would likely be adding the NY market (Rutgers or UCONN), the Pittsburgh market, and then Missouri or Nebraska.  Big alumni bases as well.

I hope this stays at 12.  14 would be a scary situation.

[Eye]

I've always thought BYU and Utah would make the most sense athletically, both competitive in both, if the Pac 10 ever did go to 12. Also matches what the league does in BKB with travel partners. You could have a southern division with the Arizona's, the LA's and the No Cal's. The northern division in buckets would be the Oregon's, the Washington's and BYU/Utah. Playing the dominoes, maybe the MWC could cherry pick Boise for FB and Gonzaga for BKB? I can't imagine the MWC would seriously consider adding old WAC schools from the days of the 16-team league for as acrimonious as that split was.

[chapman]

Yes a tremendous opportunity....nothing like an all catholic league....but worse yet an all catholic league minus Villanova and Georgetown.  That wreaks of low mid-major and the end of Marquette basketball as we know it. 

+1000.  Villanova and Georgetown have enough clout, money, geography, and history to get pulled into any major conference and remain basketball only.  We do not.  As I said in the other thread, a conference of small private schools is a conference that doesn't get on tv and has poor recruiting and little revenue compared to the major conferences.  If things fell apart that much we would be better off begging one of the major conferences to take us in no matter how much they wanted to screw us over.  That's a huge reason why the Big East has been so great: our company is historically powerful private schools along with large state schools.  I'm not going to wet my pants because we get to play another Catholic schools every game when it means the level of competition and our national attention becomes an embarassment compared to what it is now.

[LAMUfan]

Mo Walker would be a great get for MU, 6'10", 270lbs... been a long time since anyone that big has been at marquette. Maybe mboa will put on 70lbs over the summer... right?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes a tremendous opportunity....nothing like an all catholic league....but worse yet an all catholic league minus Villanova and Georgetown.  That wreaks of low mid-major and the end of Marquette basketball as we know it. 

BTW Ty Willingham's recruiting classes were some of the worst in ND football's history.  And yes he did cheat those who hired him for millions out of money in that he was a lazy recruiter who sparsely contacted players who later indicated they were waiting for ND to show some interest.  In addition he was terrible with the alumni, media and game planning and execution.  The AD at Washington lost his job for hiring him and the Washington alumni couldn't fire him early on as to risk getting called racist like ND did after they did it in year 3.  Instead they had to go winless in their 4th and final year with him which caused millions in lost revenue as seats were sparsely filled and put the re-building off an additional year.  Please post your praise for Willingham and his recruiting abilities on the ND and Washington boards as I'm sure you'll get chains of 600 responses calling you unthinkable names.  I will agree that when it was clear that Weis was a dog too they should of fired him in year three also to be consistent.... instead they lost two additional years. 

Yeah, Brady Quinn sucked.  On recruiting, depends who you ask.  Tom Lemming hated Notre Dame's classes.  Phil Steele certainly doesn't agree with you.

You do realize that in his second year, Willingham's class was ranked in the top 5?  I'm sure you knew that, but just in case you might want to look at Steele.  His first class was ranked 24th, his second class 5th consensus (Rivals had it at 12th, others as high as number 2)  At one point under Willingham, they had more top 25 Consensus players than Michigan, USC or Tennessee per Phil Steele....including 15 Parade or USA Today High School All-Americans

He didn't get it done....and neither did Charlie Weiss.  I've enjoyed it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I've always thought BYU and Utah would make the most sense athletically, both competitive in both, if the Pac 10 ever did go to 12. Also matches what the league does in BKB with travel partners. You could have a southern division with the Arizona's, the LA's and the No Cal's. The northern division in buckets would be the Oregon's, the Washington's and BYU/Utah. Playing the dominoes, maybe the MWC could cherry pick Boise for FB and Gonzaga for BKB? I can't imagine the MWC would seriously consider adding old WAC schools from the days of the 16-team league for as acrimonious as that split was.

Utah and Colorado have been mentioned most often.  Texas was at one point as well.  San Diego State and Fresno would love it, but I don't see the Pac Ten presidents allowing that to happen on the academic side.

[Pakuni]

Greenstein from the Chicago Tribune has several articles on why going to 14 might be what the Big Ten chooses to do.  In the end = money.  How much more they can get from the networks.

As someone not from Chicago, you can easily be forgiven for this error ... but Teddy Greenstein is a dolt, both professionally and personally. Don't ever trust him as a source, or think that his speculation is somehow educated.

[Eye]

I suppose Colorado/Colorado State might fit the mold. Hadn't thought of that one.

[GGGG]

My guess is that if Pitt leaves, the BE would look at East Carolina before they look at Memphis.  The Memphis football program is horrid...and I think this is a football decision before it is a basketball one.

[NYWarrior]

My guess is that if Pitt leaves, the BE would look at East Carolina before they look at Memphis.  The Memphis football program is horrid...and I think this is a football decision before it is a basketball one.

The BIG EAST would be smarter to jump on UCF before ECU.  They have much better facilities (a new arena and a new football stadium in last 2 years), spend huge $$ on athletics, and is the largest university in the Sunshine State now (in terms of kids on one campus).  UCF would give USF a natural rival as well. The Golden Knights have a solid pigskin program while hoops is barely average.  The AD there has been leaning on Speraw for a while now -- and I'd imagine a high profile basketball coach could be in their future soon (their arena is terrific).

[GGGG]

The BIG EAST would be smarter to jump on UCF before EDU.  They have much better facilities (a new arena and a new football stadium in last 2 years), spend huge $$ on athletics, and is the largest university in the Sunshine State now (in terms of kids on one campus).  UCF would give USF a natural rival as well. The Golden Knights have a solid pigskin program while hoops is barely average.  The AD there has been leaning on Speraw for a while now -- and I'd imagine a high profile basketball coach could be in their future soon (their arena is terrific).

Yeah...as soon as I hit "Post" I thought..."No...Central Florida you dummy."

[chapman]

Might be worth considering two of Memphis, ECU, and UCF.  Makes the football schedule balanced instead of four home games /three away games or vice versa like it is now.  Seems a little ridiculous to expand and make the conference even bigger but it would really solidify the football status, the basketball schedule would be the same except only two mirror games which could remain constant each year for USF, UCF, and ECU would work well by creating a southeastern rivalry.

[duanewade]

Yeah, Brady Quinn sucked.  On recruiting, depends who you ask.  Tom Lemming hated Notre Dame's classes.  Phil Steele certainly doesn't agree with you.

You do realize that in his second year, Willingham's class was ranked in the top 5?  I'm sure you knew that, but just in case you might want to look at Steele.  His first class was ranked 24th, his second class 5th consensus (Rivals had it at 12th, others as high as number 2)  At one point under Willingham, they had more top 25 Consensus players than Michigan, USC or Tennessee per Phil Steele....including 15 Parade or USA Today High School All-Americans

He didn't get it done....and neither did Charlie Weiss.  I've enjoyed it.

Like I said please make these claims on ND and Washington's boards & see how it goes.....the one highly ranked Willingham class he had two four & five star prospects that never stayed longer than a few weeks their freshman year camp (Isiah Gardner & Greg Olson - whose father was a ND alumni)...I could rebuke the story behind all your stats that you look up on the internet and so can the fans that follow these teams closely.  Botton line there are plenty of kids who want to go to ND regardless of who the coach is, Brady Quinn was one of them.  Willingham stunk.  Weis stunk overall but his offense was very productive these last two years.

So please surf the net and continue to be the first person to point out articles and quotes that would greatly hurt MU's ability to compete at an elite level going forward as obviously get you excited by this and I don't want to get in the way of that. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Might be worth considering two of Memphis, ECU, and UCF.  Makes the football schedule balanced instead of four home games /three away games or vice versa like it is now.  Seems a little ridiculous to expand and make the conference even bigger but it would really solidify the football status, the basketball schedule would be the same except only two mirror games which could remain constant each year for USF, UCF, and ECU would work well by creating a southeastern rivalry.

The question would be whether the Big East could keep their BCS bid by bringing those schools in.  That's a big if.  If they can't, then the other football Big East members start looking to join BCS conferences and the dominoes fall.

[ChicosBailBonds]

As someone not from Chicago, you can easily be forgiven for this error ... but Teddy Greenstein is a dolt, both professionally and personally. Don't ever trust him as a source, or think that his speculation is somehow educated.

Fair enough, some of the other comments came from other sources as mentioned.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So please surf the net and continue to be the first person to point out articles and quotes that would greatly hurt MU's ability to compete at an elite level going forward as obviously get you excited by this and I don't want to get in the way of that.  

Doctor, you're comedy gold.  Keep up your analysis.  Let me know where to send the nickel.

[pbiflyer]

The BIG EAST would be smarter to jump on UCF before ECU.  They have much better facilities (a new arena and a new football stadium in last 2 years), spend huge $$ on athletics, and is the largest university in the Sunshine State now (in terms of kids on one campus).  UCF would give USF a natural rival as well. The Golden Knights have a solid pigskin program while hoops is barely average.  The AD there has been leaning on Speraw for a while now -- and I'd imagine a high profile basketball coach could be in their future soon (their arena is terrific).

That's not true, I have it from reliable sources that UCF is one slasher SG/SF away from the final four.