PG Play

[tower912]

There has been a lot of kvetching about Rowsey yesterday.   Fair enough.   He played poorly.    But here is the major underlying issue.   He isn't a point guard.   He is a 5'10 shooting guard.   Same with Markus.   And therein lies a major problem.    Wojo and company rightly made a huge push to get QG, a PG with size.   They failed and are late starting on a plan B.   Right now, the guards on next year's roster are Howard, Elliot, and Sacar.    Fills you with confidence, doesn't it?
    I am not going to ruminate about who isn't here who might make a difference.    I am simply going to say that MU had better be out there trying to land a PG (or 2.  A grad transfer and a frosh) or next year is not going to be the golden year we want it to be. 

[Johnny B]

Are you ever not on mu scoop?

[Newsdreams]

Are you ever not on mu scoop?

When there is a fire

[Lennys Tap]

There has been a lot of kvetching about Rowsey yesterday.   Fair enough.   He played poorly.    But here is the major underlying issue.   He isn't a point guard.   He is a 5'10 shooting guard.   Same with Markus.   And therein lies a major problem.    Wojo and company rightly made a huge push to get QG, a PG with size.   They failed and are late starting on a plan B.   Right now, the guards on next year's roster are Howard, Elliot, and Sacar.    Fills you with confidence, doesn't it?
    I am not going to ruminate about who isn't here who might make a difference.    I am simply going to say that MU had better be out there trying to land a PG (or 2.  A grad transfer and a frosh) or next year is not going to be the golden year we want it to be.

In year 4 we have no point guard, no power forward (Sam is really good but not a PF), no starting center (Matt at best is a D1 backup) and two really good shooting guards who are 5'11" and 5'8".

[79Warrior]

In year 4 we have no point guard, no power forward (Sam is really good but not a PF), no starting center (Matt at best is a D1 backup) and two really good shooting guards who are 5'11" and 5'8".

A bit of a mess for sure. i am going to wait and see if Harry can help this team. Any presence down low will  be huge for us. Matt is a complete non factor. Still can't believe anyone thought he was better than Luke. wow.

[mu03eng]

In year 4 we have no point guard, no power forward (Sam is really good but not a PF), no starting center (Matt at best is a D1 backup) and two really good shooting guards who are 5'11" and 5'8".

Hauser sure guarded a true 4 yesterday and did so well...care to rethink this?

[brewcity77]

Hauser sure guarded a true 4 yesterday and did so well...care to rethink this?

Agreed. If you offered me 13/7 from Maten and told me he'd lead Georgia in scoring I'd have jumped for joy. We lost mostly because of turnovers and poor shooting from guys not named Markus. We're not going to win many games with an eFG of 44.4%.

[GGGG]

We have a stretch 4 coming in a week or two, and a true 4 with experience coming next year.

PG continues to be an issue though. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Agreed. If you offered me 13/7 from Maten and told me he'd lead Georgia in scoring I'd have jumped for joy. We lost mostly because of turnovers and poor shooting from guys not named Markus. We're not going to win many games with an eFG of 44.4%.

Sidebar but maybe missed in the loss, but M2N's % of Possessions yesterday was 58% with a high efficiency (Andrew's was 36%). Markus was carrying MU on its back. Impressive performance for the few minutes he played. The kid is special.

[brewcity77]

Sidebar but maybe missed in the loss, but M2N's % of Possessions yesterday was 58% with a high efficiency (Andrew's was 36%). Markus was carrying MU on its back. Impressive performance for the few minutes he played. The kid is special.

If Howard plays 30 minutes instead of 20 we win. Those first two fouls killed us and we still almost had the halftime lead if not for the circus shot at the buzzer. If we play them 10 times I bet we win 7. Yesterday just wasn't one of those.

[mu03eng]

If Howard plays 30 minutes instead of 20 we win. Those first two fouls killed us and we still almost had the halftime lead if not for the circus shot at the buzzer. If we play them 10 times I bet we win 7. Yesterday just wasn't one of those.

And quite frankly no way Rowsey plays that lousy in the other 9 games

[TSmith34, Inc.]

In year 4 we have no point guard, no power forward (Sam is really good but not a PF), no starting center (Matt at best is a D1 backup) and two really good shooting guards who are 5'11" and 5'8".

Wojo recognized the problem in the middle and got Froling and Morrow.  Traci was supposed to be the PG, but kids will be kids; he'd have plenty of minutes this year.  He picked up Elliott to replace him in his next recruiting class, and made a huge push for QG.  Maybe he missed in getting a grad transfer PG but I don't know what was available.  Toss in two more talented 6'8" coming in next year.

I'm sure a PG transfer will be his top priority to fill out the roster for next year.

Who should he have gotten that he didn't?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Who should he have gotten that he didn't?

I agree with you that his roster construction looks to be improving. 

The question at the end though doesn't make sense to me.  Wojo has the same resources and access to players as every other high major coach and deals with the same finicky kids. His roster construction to date has been poor and he is accountable for that.  That's why he gets the big bucks.

[MU82]

I agree with you that his roster construction looks to be improving. 

His roster construction to date has been poor and he is accountable for that.  That's why he gets the big bucks.

Agreed.

If Buzz had a PG commensurate to the rest of the talent in the rotation, we might have won it all in 2013. If he had any PG who wasn't a box of rocks, we would have easily made the NCAAs in 2014 and probably succeeded once there. If Wojo had a legit PG last season we might have had a shot at Sweet 16 or more. If Wojo had a real PG this season - one considerably better than Tracy Carter - we'd be a lot better off.

Gotta have a PG. I am bullish on Wojo, yet I acknowledge he dropped the ball here, just as Buzz dropped the ball before him. Gotta have a PG, preferably a couple of them. Severe injury is the only legit excuse, and it's one Wojo can't claim. He needs to bring in somebody who can play next season, and I'm confident he will.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Agreed.

If Buzz had a PG commensurate to the rest of the talent in the rotation, we might have won it all in 2013. If he had any PG who wasn't a box of rocks, we would have easily made the NCAAs in 2014 and probably succeeded once there. If Wojo had a legit PG last season we might have had a shot at Sweet 16 or more. If Wojo had a real PG this season - one considerably better than Tracy Carter - we'd be a lot better off.

Gotta have a PG. I am bullish on Wojo, yet I acknowledge he dropped the ball here, just as Buzz dropped the ball before him. Gotta have a PG, preferably a couple of them. Severe injury is the only legit excuse, and it's one Wojo can't claim. He needs to bring in somebody who can play next season, and I'm confident he will.

Duane Wilson was lined up to be Buzz's PG for those years, but he wasn't Wojo's. Du was All BE Frosh Wojo's first year as SG after he sat Buzz's last year with a hip fracture...and was the highest scoring BE newcomer over Blueitt. That said, Wojo then went Carlino and then inexplicably with Haanif instead as his PGs (which maybe was the head shaker off all time in Year 2).

We hear at Scoop Du isn't a PG, yet he starts there for #7 Texas A&M (for his main MU sponsor Chew). Has a 28% assist rate but also like Junior a high turnover rate with a high volume offense.

End of the day, Wojo wants combo guards for his offense not PGs. Get over it. Two different systems, two different fits.

[MU82]

Duane Wilson was lined up to be Buzz's PG for those years, but he wasn't Wojo's. Du was All BE Frosh Wojo's first year as SG after he sat Buzz's last year with a hip fracture...and was the highest scoring BE newcomer over Blueitt. That said, Wojo then went Carlino and then inexplicably with Haanif instead as his PGs (which maybe was the head shaker off all time in Year 2).

We hear at Scoop Du isn't a PG, yet he starts there for #7 Texas A&M (for his main MU sponsor Chew). Has a 28% assist rate but also like Junior a high turnover rate with a high volume offense.

End of the day, Wojo wants combo guards for his offense not PGs. Get over it. Two different systems, two different fits.

Folks keep saying things like "Wojo wants combo guards for his offense not PGs," yet he went hard after Grimes and he surely would be thrilled to land another Tyus Jones, the outstanding PG he helped recruit for Duke's 2014-15 national champions.

I'm guessing Wojo prefers excellent combo guards to medioce PGs. Further, I'm guessing he really would prefer a PG who can not only make everybody on the court better but also can be a major scoring threat, which describes Jones and Grimes. We haven't had one of those at MU for quite some time.

As for Duane ... I had high hopes for him as a PG - and as a 3-point shooter, given his ridiculous H.S. percentage - but it became fairly obvious early on that he wasn't really a PG. That he is starting for his new school doesn't make him any more of one. Maybe the Texas A&M coach, like Wojo, prefers combo guards, which is what Duane is.

Having said that, I'd be happy to have Duane on this year's team. Very well could have made the difference Saturday.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Folks keep saying things like "Wojo wants combo guards for his offense not PGs," yet he went hard after Grimes and he surely would be thrilled to land another Tyus Jones, the outstanding PG he helped recruit for Duke's 2014-15 national champions.

I'm guessing Wojo prefers excellent combo guards to medioce PGs. Further, I'm guessing he really would prefer a PG who can not only make everybody on the court better but also can be a major scoring threat, which describes Jones and Grimes. We haven't had one of those at MU for quite some time.

Isn't that a little bit like saying Wojo would love Chris Paul - you know he knows Chris Paul from being an assistant on USA basketball... 

Sounds great but he hasn't landed Grimes or another PG who was one-and-done.  When then presented with the achievable, he has chosen combo guards at the level that we have and hasn't favored true PGs.

[MU82]

Isn't that a little bit like saying Wojo would love Chris Paul - you know he knows Chris Paul from being an assistant on USA basketball... 

Sounds great but he hasn't landed Grimes or another PG who was one-and-done.  When then presented with the achievable, he has chosen combo guards at the level that we have and hasn't favored true PGs.

Grimes wasn't "unachievable." A couple months ago, we had 50 Scoopers who changed their screen names to include Grimes and who felt legitimately hopeful he'd choose Marquette. Stan's tweets seemed to suggest that the coaching staff also felt Grimes was very "achievable." Wojo would have loved to have had him rather than a combo guard.

Again, great PGs are hard to come by, and I believe Wojo would rather have a player he projects to be a very good combo guard instead of a mediocre PG. There are plenty of other coaches who feel the same.

All IMHO. You're allowed to have another opinion. It doesn't make either of our opinions facts.

[GGGG]

Again, great PGs are hard to come by, and I believe Wojo would rather have a player he projects to be a very good combo guard instead of a mediocre PG. There are plenty of other coaches who feel the same.

IOW, he prefers Markus to Traci.

[SVL4]

This thread is silly.  You want a better PG than Markus?  I wonder if Davidson fans were like this when Steph played point his Junior year.

[GGGG]

Except he hasn't been playing PG for most of this year.  However at this point I think he is a better option than Rowsey.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

1. Positions no matta.  Who cares if the "PG" dribbles the ball across half court, makes one pass, and becomes a "SG" the rest of the possession.

2.  MU needs someone who can dribble drive, score, and dish.  This could be a PG, SG, or SF.  Cheatham wasn't good enough to fulfill this role.  Wojo missed on Amir Coffey and Quentin Grimes.  Now he's still searching.  Greg Elliott might be this player but I think it'll take until his junior year.  He needs to get stronger and refine his skill set; both dribbling and shooting.  Need someone to fill the gap next year.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

I love elliotts court vision and willingness to pass.  10 lbs of muscle and some minor improvements in ball handling n he might be sonething really special by his junior year at the point

[Dr. Blackheart]

Folks keep saying things like "Wojo wants combo guards for his offense not PGs," yet he went hard after Grimes and he surely would be thrilled to land another Tyus Jones, the outstanding PG he helped recruit for Duke's 2014-15 national champions.

Folks haven't been saying it, Wojo has been saying it. He has a high screen driven offense designed for shooters. A dribble penetration guard to advance the ball into the paint like Junior isn't the design.

[Goose]

Sand-Knit

I think Elliott might be a player as well. I honestly feel he has far more upside than HC had as a freshman. He might end up being really good.

[CTWarrior]

Folks haven't been saying it, Wojo has been saying it. He has a high screen driven offense designed for shooters. A dribble penetration guard to advance the ball into the paint like Junior isn't the design.

Yeah, I guess I have to get used to that.  My favorite kind of offensive play is a penetrator who can pull up and shoot, penetrate and score or dish for a layup or open 3.  Howard is the only guy we have that can do all those things when he penetrates, except we don't ever seem to have the threat for the interior dump off pass.   

To me, that was the difference between us and Georgia on Saturday.  Their penetrators drove and when they got to Heldt, he had to decide to stop the ball or back off to guard against the dump off.  He seemed to make the wrong decision almost every time, but that was really because the penetrator made the right decision.  If Heldt challenged, they dumped the ball for a lay-up.  If he backed off to guard against the dump off the driver went right to the hoop.  Our penetrators either pulled up for the jumper or took it to the hoop (or dribbled through doing nothing and trying to get back outside to reset).  No threat of an interior dump off makes penetration easier to defend.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

We have a stretch 4 coming in a week or two, and a true 4 with experience coming next year.

PG continues to be an issue though.

Plus another 4 who is a top 25ish recruit. 

[MU82]

Folks haven't been saying it, Wojo has been saying it. He has a high screen driven offense designed for shooters. A dribble penetration guard to advance the ball into the paint like Junior isn't the design.

Who said anything about Junior? I'm thinking about the Wichita State PG - a player who can create for others and himself, and also play some D - something any coach would want.

If Wojo doesn't want somebody who can create for others and himself, why even bother pursuing Grimes? Why did he get Jones to run the Duke offense he and K prefer?

Heck, we could use somebody with JJJ's skill set this season. Maybe Elliott will be that - but hopefully better.

BTW, I also am in the positions-no-matta group. I would take a very good shooting guard or combo guard over a mediocre PG.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Grimes wasn't "unachievable." A couple months ago, we had 50 Scoopers who changed their screen names to include Grimes and who felt legitimately hopeful he'd choose Marquette. Stan's tweets seemed to suggest that the coaching staff also felt Grimes was very "achievable." Wojo would have loved to have had him rather than a combo guard.

Again, great PGs are hard to come by, and I believe Wojo would rather have a player he projects to be a very good combo guard instead of a mediocre PG. There are plenty of other coaches who feel the same.

All IMHO. You're allowed to have another opinion. It doesn't make either of our opinions facts.

Grimes is a combo guard.

[MU82]

Grimes is a combo guard.

OK. I'm no Grimes expert. Scoopers who seemed to know about him were calling on him to play PG and were saying Wojo was offering to let him run the show. I guess I foolishly assumed that meant he was a PG. I sit corrected.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

OK. I'm no Grimes expert. Scoopers who seemed to know about him were calling on him to play PG and were saying Wojo was offering to let him run the show. I guess I foolishly assumed that meant he was a PG. I sit corrected.

He probably would have played the point for us, and probably is better at it than Markus, but pretty sure he plays off the ball on his AAU squad.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Wojo recognized the problem in the middle and got Froling and Morrow.  Traci was supposed to be the PG, but kids will be kids; he'd have plenty of minutes this year.  He picked up Elliott to replace him in his next recruiting class, and made a huge push for QG.  Maybe he missed in getting a grad transfer PG but I don't know what was available.  Toss in two more talented 6'8" coming in next year.

I'm sure a PG transfer will be his top priority to fill out the roster for next year.

Who should he have gotten that he didn't?

It wasn't for a lack of effort, but this guy would have been nice:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/66297/allerik-freeman

Cam Johnson or Egor Koulechov.  All three were pursued.  Any of them would have been immensely helpful.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Who said anything about Junior? I'm thinking about the Wichita State PG - a player who can create for others and himself, and also play some D - something any coach would want.

If Wojo doesn't want somebody who can create for others and himself, why even bother pursuing Grimes? Why did he get Jones to run the Duke offense he and K prefer?

Heck, we could use somebody with JJJ's skill set this season. Maybe Elliott will be that - but hopefully better.

BTW, I also am in the positions-no-matta group. I would take a very good shooting guard or combo guard over a mediocre PG.

Cook was more the PG on that Duke team.  Him and Jones were both combo guards.  Btw, Hank preferred combo guards.  Like Butch and Boylan.

I used Junior as he was the prototypical MU PG under Buzz that posters are hankering for.  A Traci or Du type but not a great fit for Wojo.

[MU82]

Cook was more the PG on that Duke team.  Him and Jones were both combo guards.  Btw, Hank preferred combo guards.  Like Butch and Boylan.

I used Junior as he was the prototypical MU PG under Buzz that posters are hankering for.  A Traci or Du type but not a great fit for Wojo.

I actually think we generally agree but just might not be defining PG the same. For example, I definitely think Jones was Duke's PG. Ball in his hands constantly, especially big situations, to create for himself or others. But maybe that's a combo guard, too. How is what I described about Jones different from Chris Paul, Mike Conley, Kemba Walker, etc, etc, etc. Are they combo guards?

I just want a guard who can facilitate the offense well, create for others and himself. Don't care what we label him.

These are the kind of silly debates I don't like on Scoop and other interwebs sites. Not saying you're more guilty than I am. I'll give you the final word and drop out now. Have a good one.

[mu03eng]

               %Min ORtg  %Poss %Shots eFG% ARate TORate 2pt% 3Pt%
Player 1   77.2  128.2    25.1     32.2    63.2     15.5    10.8    70.7  39.5
Player 2   84.2  121.8    20.0     17.6    48.9     27.5    17.4    40.0  37.9
Player 3   88.9  127.3    18.6     22.5    56.9     13.2    11.0    53.6  39.5

Tyus Jones, Quinn Cook, and Markus Howard......who's who?

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

               %Min ORtg  %Poss %Shots eFG% ARate TORate 2pt% 3Pt%
Player 1   77.2  128.2    25.1     32.2    63.2     15.5    10.8    70.7  39.5
Player 2   84.2  121.8    20.0     17.6    48.9     27.5    17.4    40.0  37.9
Player 3   88.9  127.3    18.6     22.5    56.9     13.2    11.0    53.6  39.5

Tyus Jones, Quinn Cook, and Markus Howard......who's who?

1.  Howard
2.  Jones
3.  Cook

[mu03eng]

1.  Howard
2.  Jones
3.  Cook

Ding ding ding! You are either smart or have a KenPom subscription or likely both.

Either way, Markus is a PG and a good one at that. Rowsey has been playing PG because he really can't play anything else. Markus is the only one of the two who can create his own shot which is what you need out of a point guard.

[Newsdreams]

Ding ding ding! You are either smart or have a KenPom subscription or likely both.

Either way, Markus is a PG and a good one at that. Rowsey has been playing PG because he really can't play anything else. Markus is the only one of the two who can create his own shot which is what you need out of a point guard.

Think if you give the ball to Howard more his TORate will soar. I figured Markus was #1 by 3pt% and ORtg but didn't know enough of the other 2 to try and figure it out

[skianth16]

Ding ding ding! You are either smart or have a KenPom subscription or likely both.

Either way, Markus is a PG and a good one at that. Rowsey has been playing PG because he really can't play anything else. Markus is the only one of the two who can create his own shot which is what you need out of a point guard.

There's some semantics going on here, so call him a PG or SG or combo or whatever - he still struggles to handle the ball under pressure. In a tight game, going against a press or any tight D, I'm nervous to see Howard with the ball when we're not in a half court set. He also has a tendency to pick up his dribble in bad spots, and I'm not really sold on his ability to distribute without being double teamed. He's a good player and will likely continue to develop into a great player, but ballhandling is not his forte, not by a long shot.

[mu03eng]

There's some semantics going on here, so call him a PG or SG or combo or whatever - he still struggles to handle the ball under pressure. In a tight game, going against a press or any tight D, I'm nervous to see Howard with the ball when we're not in a half court set. He also has a tendency to pick up his dribble in bad spots, and I'm not really sold on his ability to distribute without being double teamed. He's a good player and will likely continue to develop into a great player, but ballhandling is not his forte, not by a long shot.

What evidence do you have to cite? He had 1 TO(out of a 17 total) against VCU and 2 TO (out of 9 total) against Wichita State. Hell, he was pressing hard late against Georgia and still only had 1 TO in the game. There is a reason Wojo benched Rowsey against Georgia and the game plan seemed to be give Howard the ball and let him do his thing.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I actually think we generally agree but just might not be defining PG the same. For example, I definitely think Jones was Duke's PG. Ball in his hands constantly, especially big situations, to create for himself or others. But maybe that's a combo guard, too. How is what I described about Jones different from Chris Paul, Mike Conley, Kemba Walker, etc, etc, etc. Are they combo guards?

I just want a guard who can facilitate the offense well, create for others and himself. Don't care what we label him.

These are the kind of silly debates I don't like on Scoop and other interwebs sites. Not saying you're more guilty than I am. I'll give you the final word and drop out now. Have a good one.

We do agree actually...I am just pointing out the roles of guards in Wojo’s scheme is very different than the Tony Miller, Junior, DJames type.

And people ripping on Andrew with his bad last game.  His assist rate is 27% and his turnover rate is 19.6%.  Junior, Traci were in the high 20% for turn rates. 

[skianth16]

What evidence do you have to cite? He had 1 TO(out of a 17 total) against VCU and 2 TO (out of 9 total) against Wichita State. Hell, he was pressing hard late against Georgia and still only had 1 TO in the game. There is a reason Wojo benched Rowsey against Georgia and the game plan seemed to be give Howard the ball and let him do his thing.

Watching him struggle in the exhibition was evidence enough to prove my point for me and many people around me. He had his fair share of conference games last year with several TO's, and he struggled against SC in the tournament too. Also, just because he may have a limited number of TOs, doesn't necessarily mean that he's handling the ball well or handling pressure well. Like I said, he has a bad habit of picking up his dribble, which may not lead to a TO, but could waste a time out or lead to wasted time or a bad shot.

[rocky_warrior]

Watching him struggle in the exhibition was evidence enough to prove my point for me

MU has played a number of games since then.  Howard has handled the ball well.  You should watch the games since the exhibition!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It wasn't for a lack of effort, but this guy would have been nice:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/66297/allerik-freeman

Cam Johnson or Egor Koulechov.  All three were pursued.  Any of them would have been immensely helpful.

Al Freeman was not pursued.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Al Freeman was not pursued.

Really? I thought he was, but maybe it was just conjecture in here.

Probably should have been if he wasn’t. Dude can guard and fill it up.

[tower912]

Rowsey was a facilitator this evening.   Crazy. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Rowsey was a facilitator this evening.   Crazy.

#drewski has a 29.6% assist rate for the season. Erase the UGA game from our memories.