Press Break

[MU82]

I wonder if there is another team in the entire nation -- great team, decent team, mediocre team or bad team -- that cannot afford to play its starting PG late in a close game because the coach knows he can't count on the PG to make a FT.

Seriously.

I wonder how many teams in the recent history of college basketball have had this situation.

Maybe when Gottlieb was at Oklahoma State? I don't remember watching him play much, but I know he was a notoriously horrible FT shooter.

Of course, Derrick isn't exactly the best PG at breaking a press, anyway, so perhaps it's just as well Buzz actually went with a PG-less lineup while trying to break the press in the final minute. Amazing.

[TJ]

Exactly--they packed it in big time. De. Wilson is not even guarded.

We've seen our share of our players being unguarded in the past (Dwight Burke is the only one I remember right now but I remember one year we were basically playing 3 on 5 most games), but teams (especially SH today) are taking it to a new level with their treatment of Derrick Wilson.

[TJ]

I wonder if there is another team in the entire nation -- great team, decent team, mediocre team or bad team -- that cannot afford to play its starting PG late in a close game because the coach knows he can't count on the PG to make a FT.

Seriously.

I wonder how many teams in the recent history of college basketball have had this situation.

Maybe when Gottlieb was at Oklahoma State? I don't remember watching him play much, but I know he was a notoriously horrible FT shooter.

Of course, Derrick isn't exactly the best PG at breaking a press, anyway, so perhaps it's just as well Buzz actually went with a PG-less lineup while trying to break the press in the final minute. Amazing.

MU was damn close to this when Dominic James was PG.  He couldn't hit a FT either, but he could break the press at least.  I'm sure it has happened more often than you think.

[tower912]

Dominic James.   Tony Miller was not a great FT shooter, either, IIRC. 

[NersEllenson]

That press break was more on Buzz and Jamil than it was on Derrick.    Derrick should be smarter than to dribble into double teams, but he has to have passing options when the trap comes.  It was either bad scheme or bad execution by Jamil. 

But Derrick is the extension of Buzz on the court.  The 30+ minute per game PG should know what to do against a press, and how to attack it.  Serious question for you Tower - Is anything regarding this team's poor performance thus far ever Derrick's fault in your eyes?  Why do you think we are 9-7 and struggling to beat a depleted Seton Hall team at home?

[MU82]

But Derrick is the extension of Buzz on the court.  The 30+ minute per game PG should know what to do against a press, and how to attack it.  Serious question for you Tower - Is anything regarding this team's poor performance thus far ever Derrick's fault in your eyes?  Why do you think we are 9-7 and struggling to beat a depleted Seton Hall team at home?

I am going to jump in and answer this first.

Nothing is Derrick's fault. Derrick is Derrick. He is who he is. He is playing exactly as most of us expected him to play given the skill set he showed in his first two seasons.

Buzz is the one who puts Derrick in the lineup and plays Derrick 35 minutes. And if Derrick is the best Buzz has, that's not Derrick's fault, either.

Don't blame Derrick for being Derrick.

[WarriorFan]

a) no D1 point guard should ever be surprised by a press
b) JW and Jake and Todd should have provided effective outlet pass targets
c) Derrick has the speed to break the press himself - like James used to - but his brain doesn't seem to work fast enough to get his legs going.

[MU82]

Dominic James.   Tony Miller was not a great FT shooter, either, IIRC. 

Fair enough. James actually was a 65% FT shooter his first three years -- not so hot but Mark Price compared to Derrick -- but then slumped badly to 46% as a senior. Still, I somehow remember him coming through with the game on the line a few times. Maybe I'm wrong and it's just my fuzzy memory wanting to remember good things.

Tony Miller shot 57% for his career, never lower than 51% in any season and never higher than 67%. Not good enough.

Derrick is at 49% this season and 47% for his 2 1/2 year career. If he had to come to the line in the final minute of a 2-point game, I would assume the worst. I am very glad Buzz agrees and gets him off the court.

Still, it does appear that there have been more bad FT-shooting PGs than I originally thought.

[ATL MU Warrior]

But Derrick is the extension of Buzz on the court.  The 30+ minute per game PG should know what to do against a press, and how to attack it.  Serious question for you Tower - Is anything regarding this team's poor performance thus far ever Derrick's fault in your eyes?  Why do you think we are 9-7 and struggling to beat a depleted Seton Hall team at home?

Some of this falls on Derrick...and some is on the rest of the guys on the team.  There is plenty of blame to go around. 

Is it really your contention that Derrick is solely to blame for our "9-7" record and our struggles to beat Seton Hall?

[NersEllenson]

Some of this falls on Derrick...and some is on the rest of the guys on the team.  There is plenty of blame to go around. 

Is it really your contention that Derrick is solely to blame for our "9-7" record and our struggles to beat Seton Hall?

Yes.  Mayo has basically taken over Vander's production from last year.  Lockett was a glue guy that didn't give a whole lot till February/March.  Everyone else returns from last year's team except Cadougan, and Derrick is getting all those minutes + some.  9-7 and struggles at home against Seton Hall and DePaul.  We tied for a share of the conference title in the rugged Big East last year...we won't sniff the title at this rate this year.

The PG is the most important player on any basketball team, as they create for all the other players on the floor.  When you have a PG that is so offensively challenged, it just multiplies the difficulty of the game on the other 4 guys.  Now, to that extent, Buzz isn't helping Derrick by starting him with Juan and Otule.  But those guys are only getting spot minutes, and Derrick and team are still struggling.

[GGGG]

I think you are way underestimating what Vander and Trent brought to last year's team both on and off the floor. 

Trent by this point last year was regularly playing 30+ minutes....scoring just under 10...getting about 5 rebounds. 

I saw your post regarding Vander v. Todd, you aren't comparing apples to apples there.  See what happens after a full season.  Vander got better as the year went on last year.  The clear leader on the team.  Todd isn't there yet.

[NersEllenson]

I think you are way underestimating what Vander and Trent brought to last year's team both on and off the floor. 

Trent by this point last year was regularly playing 30+ minutes....scoring just under 10...getting about 5 rebounds. 

I saw your post regarding Vander v. Todd, you aren't comparing apples to apples there.  See what happens after a full season.  Vander got better as the year went on last year.  The clear leader on the team.  Todd isn't there yet.

Guess we'll see how it plays out with Todd this year compared to Vander last year.  Regarding off the floor - Trent missed, yes.  Vander?  Questionable at best.  In my view, Burton could EASILY replace what Lockett brought to the team last year.  Give Burton 30 minutes and his production would greatly exceed 10 and 5 - plus considering he leads the team in steals and blocks in his limited minutes already.

Hopefully Derrick improves...was good to see him hit a few of those midrange jumpers yesterday.  If he can at least do that a couple of times a game, get us 8 ppg....4 assists....would help a ton.

[GGGG]

Guess we'll see how it plays out with Todd this year compared to Vander last year.  Regarding off the floor - Trent missed, yes.  Vander?  Questionable at best.  In my view, Burton could EASILY replace what Lockett brought to the team last year.  Give Burton 30 minutes and his production would greatly exceed 10 and 5 - plus considering he leads the team in steals and blocks in his limited minutes already.

Hopefully Derrick improves...was good to see him hit a few of those midrange jumpers yesterday.  If he can at least do that a couple of times a game, get us 8 ppg....4 assists....would help a ton.

Burton might be able to replace statistically what Trent did offensively, but Deonte isn't going to be given 30 mpg because he tends to do boneheaded things.  Like picking up fouls after missing a shot.  Like taking a "heat check" shot early in the possession.  That is why he hardly played yesterday.

He is going to be really, really good.  But the "basketball wisdom" that Trent brought isn't going to be replaced by Deonte this year.

Not sure why you think Vander isn't missed off the floor.  By all accounts that I have heard, Junior and Vander were the off the floor leaders of that team.

[The Equalizer]

I think the first trap actually caught Derrick by surprise. after that it did not look pretty, but we did not really turn the ball over.

The suprising thing is that we run a press quite frequently, which means every player presumably has seen a pretty good press during practice.  I have to think Buzz uses that time to not only coach the defense on executing the press, but also the offense on how to break it. On the other hand, it sure looked like it was the first time our guys saw a press when Seton Hall used it.

[Daniel]

Seems we give up the dribble too quickly on the press, move too slowly through the press which allows quick double teaming and really don't have the outlet players ready to vial out the ball handler. This could be fixed.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Guess we'll see how it plays out with Todd this year compared to Vander last year.  Regarding off the floor - Trent missed, yes.  Vander?  Questionable at best.  In my view, Burton could EASILY replace what Lockett brought to the team last year.  Give Burton 30 minutes and his production would greatly exceed 10 and 5 - plus considering he leads the team in steals and blocks in his limited minutes already.

Hopefully Derrick improves...was good to see him hit a few of those midrange jumpers yesterday.  If he can at least do that a couple of times a game, get us 8 ppg....4 assists....would help a ton.

You really don't think this team misses Vander?  Looks like your favorite whipping boy from the last couple of years still can't catch a break from you.   

Vander is exactly what this team lacks in at least three critical ways:
- A guy who wants the ball in crunch time
- A good off-ball defender who could create tranisition offense with his defense 
- A guy that could create offense with penetration -- either for himself or others

These are all big weaknesses on the team this year and things Vander did very well.

Now, how is he not missed again?

[MU82]

Yes.  Mayo has basically taken over Vander's production from last year.  Lockett was a glue guy that didn't give a whole lot till February/March.  Everyone else returns from last year's team except Cadougan, and Derrick is getting all those minutes + some.  9-7 and struggles at home against Seton Hall and DePaul.  We tied for a share of the conference title in the rugged Big East last year...we won't sniff the title at this rate this year.

The PG is the most important player on any basketball team, as they create for all the other players on the floor.  When you have a PG that is so offensively challenged, it just multiplies the difficulty of the game on the other 4 guys.  Now, to that extent, Buzz isn't helping Derrick by starting him with Juan and Otule.  But those guys are only getting spot minutes, and Derrick and team are still struggling.

For the jillionth time, it isn't Derrick Wilson's fault that he is only as good as Derrick Wilson.

But I do agree that what has become of the PG position is largely to blame for the woes. Trade our PG for any of about 7-8 others we have played this season and we have how many more wins? 3? 5? It's just too important a position to be manned by the guy Buzz has manning it. The combination of Buzz not recruiting and/or retaining a good PG in last year's freshman class and some bad luck in Duane's injury has played a major role in undermining a potentially good season.

None of that is Derrick's "fault." It's like blaming Otule for not being Anthony Davis.

[NersEllenson]

You really don't think this team misses Vander?  Looks like your favorite whipping boy from the last couple of years still can't catch a break from you.   

Vander is exactly what this team lacks in at least three critical ways:
- A guy who wants the ball in crunch time
- A good off-ball defender who could create tranisition offense with his defense 
- A guy that could create offense with penetration -- either for himself or others

These are all big weaknesses on the team this year and things Vander did very well.

Now, how is he not missed again?

Couple things - Vander wasn't my whipping boy last year - though I did have a lot of concerns and negative posts on him his sophomore year.

To the bolded points above - Todd Mayo does all of the above just as well as Vander.  Mayo has been a whipping boy for some here, can't recall if he's been your whipping boy or not - but Mayo's career at MU has been on virtually the same arc as Vander's - the exception being Vander got big time minutes his sophomore year, whereas Mayo's were severely limited by his academic issues.

Will not surprise me in the least if Mayo's numbers at the end of this season look a lot like Blue's at the end of last year - all while playing alongside our most suspect PG in 25+ years.

[tower912]

Serious answer.  Derrick Wilson is who he is.  The same guy many were calling to start over Cadougan a year ago.   I was hoping for more, but he hasn't progressed and isn't showing the scoring chops he did in high school.   Having watched almost every minute of every game, though, he still looks like the best option at point.   Dawson is progressing, but if you asked me 100 times (and I think you have) who should be starting at point, who should get the most minutes at point, and who do I want running the point in a tight game, the answer to all 3 would be Derrick all 100 times.    I am not dogmatic, though.  My opinion about who should be starting has changed this year from STjr/Juan to Deonte/Todd, along with Chris, Jamil, Jake and Derrick.   If the time comes where, IMO, Dawson is playing better than Derrick and I think he should be starting, I will say so.    But to borrow from 'Gladiator', ....not yet.....

[NersEllenson]

For the jillionth time, it isn't Derrick Wilson's fault that he is only as good as Derrick Wilson.

But I do agree that what has become of the PG position is largely to blame for the woes. Trade our PG for any of about 7-8 others we have played this season and we have how many more wins? 3? 5? It's just too important a position to be manned by the guy Buzz has manning it. The combination of Buzz not recruiting and/or retaining a good PG in last year's freshman class and some bad luck in Duane's injury has played a major role in undermining a potentially good season.

None of that is Derrick's "fault." It's like blaming Otule for not being Anthony Davis.

Fair enough.  I'm fine putting the entire blame on Buzz for continuing to ride Derrick 30+ minutes per game.  Dawson should have gotten more PT in nonconference - or Buzz shouldn't have given Dawson a scholarship - because as you post, trade our PG for 7-8 of the others we've played and we have 3-5 more wins.  It is evident early Derrick was going to struggle against decent PG's, and even the poor ones - so the prudent thing to do would have been to give his backup, some good quality run to get experience.

[NersEllenson]

Serious answer.  Derrick Wilson is who he is.  The same guy many were calling to start over Cadougan a year ago.   I was hoping for more, but he hasn't progressed and isn't showing the scoring chops he did in high school.   Having watched almost every minute of every game, though, he still looks like the best option at point.   Dawson is progressing, but if you asked me 100 times (and I think you have) who should be starting at point, who should get the most minutes at point, and who do I want running the point in a tight game, the answer to all 3 would be Derrick all 100 times.    I am not dogmatic, though.  My opinion about who should be starting has changed this year from STjr/Juan to Deonte/Todd, along with Chris, Jamil, Jake and Derrick.   If the time comes where, IMO, Dawson is playing better than Derrick and I think he should be starting, I will say so.    But to borrow from 'Gladiator', ....not yet.....

Fair enough.  Just shocked at how one could come to that conclusion 100 times.  The more I've seen of Derrick, the more convinced I am that the team would be better off with Dawson getting 25-30.  Highly doubt Buzz will make the change, as at this point I feel Buzz is hell bent on trying to prove he can win with Derrick getting 30+  Dawson did nothing to show the team would be in any way worse off with him running the point against X, and in fact showed it likely would be better, as evidenced by how he had them down just 1 point with 5:00 left at X, and then Derrick went back in and we were down 8 with in 2:45.

[GGGG]

Couple things - Vander wasn't my whipping boy last year - though I did have a lot of concerns and negative posts on him his sophomore year.

To the bolded points above - Todd Mayo does all of the above just as well as Vander.  

That just isn't true.  Outside of outside shooting, there isn't a single thing that Todd does as well as Vander did last year.  He's bigger...quicker...better defender...takes it into a crowded lane easier.