Scholarship table
I think speaks to Wojo being a good game coach. Sits Derrick when he's inefficient. That didn't seem to happen last year, but maybe my memory is slanted.
That's a fine way to look at it - either way - we aren't under talented relative to the league. Nor should we expect to finish anything less than 9-9 given the level of our talent.As for Florida - you make a good case. A few things I'd say: Billy Donovan has lots of skins on the wall - to call into question his coaching is quite a bit different than to call into question Wojo's in his first year. Strength of schedule. Pomeroy ranks Florida 37, despite their 10-9 record that matches Marquette. We are 92. Next.
TAMUI do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.
You like the players on this list?At least 24% of possessions usedRank Player Team Ht Wt Yr ORtg1 Sterling Gibbs Seton Hall 6-2 185 Jr 118.9 (24.4)2 LaDontae Henton Providence 6-6 215 Sr 113.6 (26.9)3 Joshua Smith Georgetown 6-10 350 Sr 113.2 (28.8)4 D'Angelo Harrison St. John's 6-4 202 Sr 112.1 (25.4)5 Myke Henry DePaul 6-6 228 Jr 104.3 (25.0)6 Kris Dunn Providence 6-3 205 So 101.4 (30.3)7 Roosevelt Jones Butler 6-4 227 Jr 100.2 (25.5)8 Rysheed Jordan St. John's 6-4 193 So 92.0 (28.9)9 Devin Brooks Creighton 6-2 175 Sr 90.4 (26.1)10 JaJuan Johnson Marquette 6-5 185 So 89.4 (25.3)So, if you want to get all caught up in O-Rating - Kris Dunn is a worse player than Derrick Wilson. So is Roosevelt Jones. Where do those guys rank on Bama's list of Big EAst players?JJJ is an AGGRESSIVE player - I look at that Top 10 list in the Big East above and see a lot of players I like. Yes JJJ needs to improve, yet like I said all of last year you have to give a guy consistent playing time and run to know what he really "is." JJJ has gotten 7 games this season of 25+ minutes. His O-Rating in those games 98. Is it great? No, but it is much better than 89.Meanwhile Derrick Wilson has ONLY 3 games of less than 25 minutes. His average O Rating in those games?? 67But I know, all the guys here who have never played the game on much of any level will ridicule my statement that you need long runs of playing time to reflect what you truly are as a player. To draw conclusions off of a guy playing scattered DNP's, to 10 minutes to 17 minutes, comprised of 3 or 4 different stints of action - you just can't draw any relevant conclusions from that type of playing time.
I don't have any stats, but my eyes tell me that Wojo is willing to ride the hot hand inside of any given game. We've seen Sandy Cohen play well, and get a bunch of minutes. Steve Taylor was good against SJU, so he got a lot of minutes. etc. etc. So, it's likely that all of MU's players have their worst offensive numbers when they play the least amount of minutes. When they have good nights, Wojo gives them more minutes.
Question: Say you have a team that is successful/winning with 4/5 starters being upperclassmen. But you also have a bunch of top 100 underclassmen talent sitting on the bench. As you've said, you need to give guys consistent playing time/run to figure out what they are. So, when do these underclassmen get "found out"? Your team is clearly successful currently, so you aren't going to bench the current starters just to find out about the underclassmen.
Usage does not equal good. All usage means is that the players shoots and turns the ball over a ton.High Usage + High Efficiency = All StarLow Usage + High Efficiency = Solid role playerLow Usage + Low Efficiency = Bench PlayerHigh Usage + Low Efficiency = DisasterGuess which one JjJ is at this point?
JJJ got solid minutes early, actually even started some games. Just like last year, when the competition got tougher his play deteriorated. So he lost minutes. Part of his losing those minutes was Sandy Cohen doing what you think is impossible - playing well enough in short spurts to earn more minutes. JJJ's numbers aren't the worst of our 5 perimeter players because of his lack of minutes. It's the other way around - his minutes have become the fewest of our 5 perimeter players because his numbers are the worst. Want more? Do what Cohen did - play better.
That's the point - the need to find out what you have in the Top 100 underclassmen isn't nearly as critical - if your upperclassmen are performing well and you are winning games at a respectable clip.Furthermore, it is A LOT more tolerable as a talented player to sit on the bench behind an effective guy, on a winning team - than it is to sit behind a clearly overmatched upperclassmen on a losing/.500 team.Now, in this case, with this team at this stage - with a roster of only 8 guys - it becomes even more suspect to bench a player/play a guy 12-15 minutes per game that was a Top 30-40 recruit just two years ago.
So, underclassmen can develop on the bench/in practice. You don't HAVE to find out what they are in games. Your perspective is more one of frustration to those sitting while a team doesn't win games. That I can understand/agree with. But the two points can be spoken of seperately.
How do you explain Derrick's 67 O-Rating in games he played less than 25? Ironically - We are talking TN Martin, Ohio State, and Arizona State -the three games JJJ's increased to over 30. So, Derrick's minutes get reduced in those games, and he turns in a 67 O Rating, meanwhile JJJ's minutes are increased in those games and he turns in a 98 O Rating - a 10 point improvement - where as Derrick regresses 36 points in O-Rating from his season clip of 103.
And yes, my frustration and issue with highly thought of underclassmen riding the bench, stems mostly from it occurring on a losing/.500 type of team. I do feel all of Deonte, JJJ and John could have benefitted last year from playing more minutes carrying that forward to this year. All three of those guys would have had a lot more data to know where the holes in their games were when it mattered the most - games.
Cohen was a starter to begin the year, FYI. And JJJ's 3 games over 30 minutes were against TN Martin, Ohio State, and Arizona State. TN Martin stacks up as our 6th best win of the year after Prov, Arizona State, Tennessee, Georgia Tech, Creighton.How do you explain Derrick's 67 O-Rating in games he played less than 25? Ironically - We are talking TN Martin, Ohio State, and Arizona State -the three games JJJ's increased to over 30. So, Derrick's minutes get reduced in those games, and he turns in a 67 O Rating, meanwhile JJJ's minutes are increased in those games and he turns in a 98 O Rating - a 10 point improvement - where as Derrick regresses 36 points in O-Rating from his season clip of 103.
Very easily. Derrick's O-rating didn't drop because Wojo cut his minutes. Wojo cut his minutes because he was playing badly, even worse than JJJ normally does. And JJJ's O-rating didn't go up because he got some of those available minutes. He got some of those minutes because he was playing better than usual in his normal minutes. Play crappy, minutes shrink, play better, minutes increase makes infinitely more sense than more minutes make guys who are playing lousy guys who play well. Your concept that a .500 team can't get any worse by benching the guys who have earned PT in favor of the guys who haven't strikes me as wrongheaded in any sport. It's an affront to logic. That renders your experience playing the game beside the point, IMO. You have a passion for MU, you know the game and you're a good guy. But when Buzz, Autry, Wojo, Carrawell, Diener, etc., are on one side of a basketball argument and you, Texas Western, Willie and Mojo are on the other I think you should at least consider the possibility that those guys aren't total idiots. That doesn't mean you always have to agree. I disagree with "experts" on a regular basis - presidents, movie reviewers, my teachers, coaches, you name it. But I don't think that they and those who might agree with them are fools. I don't think you do either.
But when March rolled around last year we weren't a losing/.500 team. We were 17-11 (.607) and 9-6 (.600) in the Big East. Whether you want to admit it or not, we still had a shot at the NCAA tournament. We lost 3 OT regular season games and a heartbreaker in the Big East tournament to finish 17-15, but we could have just as easily been 21-11 and playing in the Big East semis. In hindsight I guess we could have thrown in the towel and played the freshmen more earlier but I liked the fact that we were still trying to win every game.
Can you help me understand how one's O rating depends on minutes played, as opposed to their minutes played being driven by their O rating? I think you're trying to connect dots that aren't there. Derrick is playing bad, he gets the bench. JJJ seized the most of those extra minutes he got. There isn't much else to it than that.
Again, you misunderstand value add. You can't look at this stat and say "Derrick Wilson is ranked above Javaughn Pinkston he must be the better player." All it say is that Derrick is more valuable to his team. If you put Derrick Wilson on Villanova, he'd probably have a ranking in the 90s. This is really only useful when comparing within a single team.
You like the players on this list?At least 24% of possessions usedSo, if you want to get all caught up in O-Rating - Kris Dunn is a worse player than Derrick Wilson. So is Roosevelt Jones. Where do those guys rank on Bama's list of Big EAst players?
I don't care what these cute numbers say ... or as valuable as players like Pinkston...
Buzz is no Billy Donovan but he had a lot of skins on the wall too. That didn't stop your outrageous claims of incompetence and/or outright tanking last year.
Hey, thanks all for the comments even those who disagree with me on stuff. I know sometimes my stuff is too much in the weeds and not as fun as some of the clever minds on MUScoop, but after an intense day of work it was great to see this post stirred a little interest. It made my day to see everyone weighing in - pro or con on me or JJJ or whoever.Go Warriors!
Very easily. Derrick's O-rating didn't drop because Wojo cut his minutes.
Lenny - I respect you and your posts, though we disagreed a lot in the last year. The buck stops with the head coach - assistants may want/think other guys should be getting more minutes. Certainly a level headed head coach would value the input of his assistants, yet ultimately the head coach is their meal ticket. How much do you want to but heads with your boss? Last season Wainwright wouldn't go to Buzz about Todd playing more - he told Todd to go to Buzz and ask for more time, to be allowed to play through his mistakes.
bama, all of this is awesome. Thanks for all the sharing!