MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: SaveOD238 on May 25, 2018, 03:57:18 PM
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I'm stealing this topic from today's Big Show on The Fan, but what's the biggest "what if" moment in Marquette history?
For me, it's "what if Dominic James doesn't break his foot?" (Which I tweeted at the Big Show, but of course didn't make the air because they never mention Marquette)
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#14 duzant foul out vs tOSU, aina?
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#22 duzant go ta da Nets in February, hey?
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#54 duzant get tossed vs Miami of Ohio, hey?
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Al duzant announce retirement in December, aina?
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MU still were the Warriors, aina?
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#54 duzant get tossed vs Miami of Ohio, hey?
Help us young folks out...I know #22 is Chones, but who are #14 and #54 that you're referencing?
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Dean the Dream and J
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I'm stealing this topic from today's Big Show on The Fan, but what's the biggest "what if" moment in Marquette history?
For me, it's "what if Dominic James doesn't break his foot?" (Which I tweeted at the Big Show, but of course didn't make the air because they never mention Marquette)
Most of the clear answers have been listed, but I’ll add Vander Blue comes back for his senior year.
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Al duzant announce retirement in December, aina?
Cheap Jesuits, hey?
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If Crean could have outcoached the Stanford assistant?
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I’d have to say in the modern era it is - what if D Wade does a little better academically in high school.
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What if Fr. Jacques never left France?
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Other than what already has been mentioned:
- Ric Cobb hits both free throws in the end of regulation against Purdue (1969 Regional Final).
Henry Ellenson stays for his sophomore season.
Indiana loses just ONE game in 1976.
Al decides coaching is a lot of fun and sticks around through the 1980s.
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What if wade hadn't gone pro!
Just kidding... from my life I'd say Travis doesn't get injured, dom doesn't get injured, Vander doesn't declare for the draft/McKay stays/Duane doesn't get injured but primarily vander stays
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What if Iman Shumpert would have picked Marquette. Obviously, not as "big" of some of the others on here, but I always remember him as "one that got away." Some of those early Buzz teams were pretty good. Shump could have helped.
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Cheap Jesuits, hey?
Not really
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Dominic James doesn't break his foot in '09. That team was special.
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What if Trevor Mbakwe stayed at Marquette?
What if Vander Blue returned for his senior year?
What if Joe Wolf and Rick Olson had come to Marquette?
What if Shaka's wife was OK with Milwaukee?
What if Dominic James doesn't break his foot?
What if MU never hires Al?
What if Dean Smith doesn't prematurely go to the 4 corners?
What if Otule doesn't come back for a 6th year, leading McKay to be on the reserves at the first practice?
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#14 duzant foul out vs tOSU, aina?
Or made his free throws ....oh I forgot they don't matter :)
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What if Dean Smith doesn't prematurely go to the 4 corners?
This might be the best what-if in Marquette history.
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Help us young folks out...I know #22 is Chones, but who are #14 and #54 that you're referencing?
54 is davante. He was thrown out of a game because his elbows moved faster then his hips.
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What if MU had kept football in the 60's?
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What if Buzz made Jeremy Lamb or Kris Dunn more of a priority.
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What if MU had beaten #1 UNC on Jan 19, 1986?
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What if Blondie never retired.
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What if I had been a good Jew and had attended an Ivy League school instead of Jezzy U?
(Aw, who am I kidding? I couldn't even have gotten into the Harvard of the Midwest.)
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54 is davante. He was thrown out of a game because his elbows moved faster then his hips.
Jerome Whitehead is the correct answer.
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The modern era answer is obvious...what if MU isn’t invited to join the Big East.
The Dean Smith 4 corners what if is #1 for overall importance.
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The modern era answer is obvious...what if MU isn’t invited to join the Big East.
The Dean Smith 4 corners what if is #1 for overall importance.
Lots of great "what ifs" mentioned here, but the one that dwarfs them all is What if Al didn't take early retirement. We all agree that MU is no Kentucky, Duke or North Carolina but when Al hung them up we were the #2 program in the country behind only UCLA. Al was 49. 49!!!!At that time Dean Smith was 47. He coached 20 more years through the 1997 season. If Al stays through, say 1995, (adding 18 years to his 13 year run) there's no Hank, Rick, Dukiet or KO eras. Through the mid 90s we likely win multiple national championships. Settling for the likes of Deane, Crean, Buzz or Wojo never happens. Nearly all of Scoop embraces what some now deride as "Just win, baby". Maybe we're even still the Warriors! Seashells and balloons.
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Lots of great "what ifs" mentioned here, but the one that dwarfs them all is What if Al didn't take early retirement. We all agree that MU is no Kentucky, Duke or North Carolina but when Al hung them up we were the #2 program in the country behind only UCLA. Al was 49. 49!!!!At that time Dean Smith was 47. He coached 20 more years through the 1997 season. If Al stays through, say 1995, (adding 18 years to his 13 year run) there's no Hank, Rick, Dukiet or KO eras. Through the mid 90s we likely win multiple national championships. Settling for the likes of Deane, Crean, Buzz or Wojo never happens. Nearly all of Scoop embraces what some now deride as "Just win, baby". Maybe we're even still the Warriors! Seashells and balloons.
Al had nothing left in the tank. He was mentally done with coaching or he would have taken another job, even after his failed foray into business. His broadcasting career lasted almost as long as his coaching career, where he could be the philosopher, street observer, game analyst, story teller and champion of the greatest era of the game.
To me the question would have been then, what if Al didn't leave? As great as he was for Marquette, he was greater gone. He would have become a burnt out, fired coach at Marquette. His genius was timing.
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Trank has a tool where you can go in and change results to see where your tournament chances would change. Here's the link for 2009:
http://barttorvik.com/teamcast.php?year=2009&team=Marquette
I also stumbled across the 86 UNC game on Youtube. Crazy NC played a game the night before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfYXBQUrY1A
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The Warriors also played the day before, 'cept at home, hey?
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I also stumbled across the 86 UNC game on Youtube. Crazy NC played a game the night before.
Was at that game. Our guys played their hearts out. UNC was a better team.
UNC came to Milwaukee because Dean Smith promised every recruit a chance to play near home, if possible. So we got UNC.
In the end, UNC was better coached and more poised than we were. An incredible win for the Tar Heels at a very hostile Milwaukee Arena.
As to Al, I agree with Brother Lenny that Al would have adapted to the new realities of college ball, just as Dean Smith and Coach K did. Had he stayed, I am confident we would have had multiple NatChamps. Maybe Al was burned out and maybe, just maybe, he was tired of dealing with the MU bureaucracy of the time. That and the discussion of the role of basketball among some professors at the time.
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I will go a little off the board...What if Walter Downing had not listened to his girlfriend?
While he did end up at Marquette, and was decent, but landing him initially would have created more buzz right after Doc came, and they would have been able to play together.
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The one I always think about is Embiid. If only Luc Mbah a Moute enjoyed his time in Milwaukee, I think Joel is a golden eagle and a buck.
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The one I always think about is Embiid. If only Luc Mbah a Moute enjoyed his time in Milwaukee, I think Joel is a golden eagle and a buck.
Unfortunately, Moute hated MKE.
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If Crum had been hired as coach
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LeDaryl Billingsley......Mike Deane might still be around..... :-\
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If Crum had been hired as coach
Probably cost too much!
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What if Tom Crean had not been selected/hired as HC at Marquette? Quin Snyder, Barry Collier and Tom Davis were all mentioned as possible candidates at the time. If a coach like Collier is hired, not only does Butler likely not go down the path of incredible success it has (including eventual Big East invitation), but also, Marquette may not go on Final Four run and - in turn - not get into the Big East. Marquette likely stays in C-USA until 2005, then moves to the A-10 with Saint Louis.
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What if Majerus had been able to have the same mind-set when he took the reins at Marquette as he had after he had gotten "refreshed" by his stint with Nellie and the Bucks?
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Jerome Whitehead is the correct answer.
...actually what if the clock had run out.
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What if Majerus didn't have a towel available...
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What if MU had kept football in the 60's?
The doors would be shuttered, once MU went bankrupt.
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Lots of great "what ifs" mentioned here, but the one that dwarfs them all is What if Al didn't take early retirement. We all agree that MU is no Kentucky, Duke or North Carolina but when Al hung them up we were the #2 program in the country behind only UCLA. Al was 49. 49!!!!At that time Dean Smith was 47. He coached 20 more years through the 1997 season. If Al stays through, say 1995, (adding 18 years to his 13 year run) there's no Hank, Rick, Dukiet or KO eras. Through the mid 90s we likely win multiple national championships. Settling for the likes of Deane, Crean, Buzz or Wojo never happens. Nearly all of Scoop embraces what some now deride as "Just win, baby". Maybe we're even still the Warriors! Seashells and balloons.
Remember that Al tried to leave MU once, and MU blocked him from leaving. Something tells me it isn't guaranteed if he stayed in coaching he would have stayed at MU. An entire generation was able to see him as an analyst which he did great at. Going out a winner, I would not want it any other way for Al.
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The doors would be shuttered, once MU went bankrupt.
No. Did Temple go bankrupt? Fordham? The football program was not throwing off that much cash, this is absurd.
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Most of the clear answers have been listed, but I’ll add Vander Blue comes back for his senior year.
I find this one interesting. Had Vander stayed and MU had another great season, would Buzz still be here?
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Trank has a tool where you can go in and change results to see where your tournament chances would change. Here's the link for 2009:
http://barttorvik.com/teamcast.php?year=2009&team=Marquette
I also stumbled across the 86 UNC game on Youtube. Crazy NC played a game the night before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfYXBQUrY1A
Just looked it up.
Not only played a game the afternoon before, but they played #3 Duke to open the Dean Smith Center.
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What if MU had beaten #1 UNC on Jan 19, 1986?
Honestly, not all that much different than what ended up happening.
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Rick Mount misses
Jim Chones doesn't leave
Joe Wolf comes
Tony Barone is hired instead of Kevin O'Neill
Dominic doesn't break his foot
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Shaka Smart's old lady sez yeah, hey?
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Honestly, not all that much different than what ended up happening.
Beg to differ. I was a sophomore that year, and totally engaged in MU b-ball. That game (marked by Al's first game in Milwaukee as an announcer) could've been a milestone for Rick, and felt like such a missed opportunity (note that MU had never beaten a No. 1 and didn't until beating Villanova in 2017). That game, along with losing to IU in the NIT (documented in another thread recently), and the long losing streak to F***ING ND (we played ND 8 times in my MU years...lost 8 times...F***ING David Rivers) were the moments that showed that 1977 was a peak and getting back there was not going to be easy, that hard times were going to be necessary to go through.
If MU had won that game, the season could've turned around and Rick might have found the success he ultimately found elsewhere. MU's trajectory might have been different.
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What if...there never was a Real Chili?
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Coulda sworn Al's furst game wuz vs UNLV wit Al duin' commentary in a room wit a tv away from courtside, hey?
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Beg to differ. I was a sophomore that year, and totally engaged in MU b-ball. That game (marked by Al's first game in Milwaukee as an announcer) could've been a milestone for Rick, and felt like such a missed opportunity (note that MU had never beaten a No. 1 and didn't until beating Villanova in 2017). That game, along with losing to IU in the NIT (documented in another thread recently), and the long losing streak to F***ING ND (we played ND 8 times in my MU years...lost 8 times...F***ING David Rivers) were the moments that showed that 1977 was a peak and getting back there was not going to be easy, that hard times were going to be necessary to go through.
If MU had won that game, the season could've turned around and Rick might have found the success he ultimately found elsewhere. MU's trajectory might have been different.
Sorry but I just don't think that one game meant all that much. That team wasn't very good.
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Shaka Smart's old lady sez yeah, hey?
Yeah, Scoopers woulda loved us going 11-22 in his second season!
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Sorry but I just don't think that one game meant all that much. That team wasn't very good.
Fair enough, and it could be true. But, one game can turn a season, right? And one season could turn a program, right?
I won't hold onto the idea that that game was the biggest "what if" in MU's history, but I do feel that it was a missed opportunity, and a victory might have changed the season and the years after.
Mostly, it sucked to have the win within our reach and to choke it away. And so maybe I just want it to mean more than it did/does.
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Sorry but I just don't think that one game meant all that much. That team wasn't very good.
Sorry, but that did make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things. It felt like it then and it still does. Those few days and weeks turned MUs world around. It led to Dukiet. Ugh.
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Sorry, but that did make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things. It felt like it then and it still does. Those few days and weeks turned MUs world around. It led to Dukiet. Ugh.
I just don't think beating UNC turns that season around - that was a mediocre Marquette team that played mediocre before the UNC game and played mediocre afterwards. I believe the only NCAA tournament team they beat all year was DePaul at the MECCA. (After the UNC game BTW.) I think this is one of those things that seems more important than it actually was.
I think not landing Joe Wolf was 100 times more impactful a "what if" than that game was.
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I just don't think beating UNC turns that season around - that was a mediocre Marquette team that played mediocre before the UNC game and played mediocre afterwards. I believe the only NCAA tournament team they beat all year was DePaul at the MECCA. (After the UNC game BTW.) I think this is one of those things that seems more important than it actually was.
I think not landing Joe Wolf was 100 times more impactful a "what if" than that game was.
I agree with Brother Sultan on this one. That game was fun and it reignited the feeling of what once was. But by the time the game was over, you knew what was wasn't what is or will be. Even if we had won, we were not anywhere near good enough to sustain that level for the rest of the season, or into the future.
Hiring Hank Raymonds had 1.0 billion times more impact on the program than Joe Wolf or anything that happened in 1986. By the time this game was played, it was very evident why the Jesuits looked past Hank in 1964 to hire Al. It was also evident that hanging with the last vestiges of the Al era was a mistake. Our talent was middle-of-the-road and our national standing was somewhere near barely on the radar.
By contrast, UNC was number 1!
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Agree with all of this. Missing Joe Wolf and hiring Hank are two big What Ifs.
Losing the UNC game not a big What if, but nonetheless one of the 7 most disappointing losses in my 4 years (the other 6 being to ND). And the way we lost was awful.
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I just don't think beating UNC turns that season around - that was a mediocre Marquette team that played mediocre before the UNC game and played mediocre afterwards. I believe the only NCAA tournament team they beat all year was DePaul at the MECCA. (After the UNC game BTW.) I think this is one of those things that seems more important than it actually was.
I think not landing Joe Wolf was 100 times more impactful a "what if" than that game was.
I think that loss kind of took the wind out of Rick’s sails and helped lead to the Dukiet fiasco. All I’m saying. Of course, there were other factors. Though, Joe Wolf signed with UNC 3 years before that. Rick had a lot of time to get over that.
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Agree with all of this. Missing Joe Wolf and hiring Hank are two big What Ifs.
Losing the UNC game not a big What if, but nonetheless one of the 7 most disappointing losses in my 4 years (the other 6 being to ND). And the way we lost was awful.
Legs, I can help you exorcise that demon as we beat them a lot in my day, including a very special drubbing at the ACC Center. For that game we sat in tickets from Dick Rosenthal. We were a wee bit obnoxious that game.
The exorcism will require a specially approved exorcism tonic.....Weller should do nicely.
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Rick Mount misses
Jim Chones doesn't leave
Joe Wolf comes
Tony Barone is hired instead of Kevin O'Neill
Dominic doesn't break his foot
Wojo's powerpoint fizzled out.
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Wojo's powerpoint fizzled out.
That made me chuckle.
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Father Pilarz and Larry Williams weren't hired..
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Al DIDN'T decide to go to the NIT instead of the NCAA
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4ever learned how to speak English? Mentally got beyond middl school?
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What if MU had kept football in the 60's?
The doors would be shuttered, once MU went bankrupt.
No. Did Temple go bankrupt? Fordham? The football program was not throwing off that much cash, this is absurd.
Okay, you caught me being facetious, the school wasn't going bankrupt, but the athletic department was definitely headed in that direction.
Remember, it was 1960, and the athletic department was at least a million in the hole, due to football. On the upside, after dropping football, a decision was made to go big time in basketball as the only realistic option for getting the athletic department out of the hole.
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Legs, I can help you exorcise that demon as we beat them a lot in my day, including a very special dubbing at the ACC Center. For that game we sat in tickets from Dick Rosenthal. We were a wee bit obnoxious that game.
The exorcism will require a specially approved exorcism tonic.....Weller should do nicely.
Yo, yeah brother Chili fun times! ND SUCKS!!
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What if WI ave was closed?
What if the lanche was still there? Or hags?
If we got shumpert, crean likely doesn't leave for I4.
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What if WI ave was closed?
What if the lanche was still there? Or hags?
If we got shumpert, crean likely doesn't leave for I4.
He would have gone I4 and taken Shumpert with him, hey
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What if WI ave was closed?
What if the lanche was still there? Or hags?
If we got shumpert, crean likely doesn't leave for I4.
Tank goodness four Georgia Tech, hey?
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Jerome Whitehead is the correct answer.
thank you! i was going thru the list of answers and was ready to pounce-still not over that game-freshman year, drinkin 25 cent tappers at jv grunts...was in a blackout until about 12 years ago :'(
wanted so bad to run down wisco ave to the lake and miss class the next day
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I think if MU had gotten Scooter and Rodney McRae...,instead of Louisville.
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Okay, you caught me being facetious, the school wasn't going bankrupt, but the athletic department was definitely headed in that direction.
Remember, it was 1960, and the athletic department was at least a million in the hole, due to football. On the upside, after dropping football, a decision was made to go big time in basketball as the only realistic option for getting the athletic department out of the hole.
Not at least a million, not even close. Not even in the same county. According to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and the Law school, the athletic department was $50,000 in the whole due to football. MU dropped football and track and field, despite being the largest Catholic school in the country at the time. Despite placing 70 players in the NFL, including four that were on the lats team to play at MU.
https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2012/11/23/more-on-marquette-football/
http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111563979.html
I was at MU in the early 70's, wounds of football still in the memories of many professors. MU pulled the plug, was short sighted on it. Only two schools dropped football from 1954 to 1972 - Marquette and Detroit. Most schools if they were going to drop did so prior to '54. It caught everyone by surprise. Father O'Donnell made a business decision, but it was nowhere near as dire as suggested and the way in which the school went about it was poor. Yanking half of the scholarship of players, letting them find out the program was gone on the radio media reports - sounds like something Crean had done. Piss poor.
In case you were wondering, $50,000 in 1960 is worth $419,258.50 in today's dollars.
https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1954
https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=100&year=1920
CNN Money says $50,000 in 1960 is worth $394K http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/inflation-adjustment/
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Tank goodness four Georgia Tech, hey?
No chit, aina, kin.
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Not at least a million, not even close. Not even in the same county. According to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and the Law school, the athletic department was $50,000 in the whole due to football. MU dropped football and track and field, despite being the largest Catholic school in the country at the time. Despite placing 70 players in the NFL, including four that were on the lats team to play at MU.
https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2012/11/23/more-on-marquette-football/
http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111563979.html
I was at MU in the early 70's, wounds of football still in the memories of many professors. MU pulled the plug, was short sighted on it. Only two schools dropped football from 1954 to 1972 - Marquette and Detroit. Most schools if they were going to drop did so prior to '54. It caught everyone by surprise. Father O'Donnell made a business decision, but it was nowhere near as dire as suggested and the way in which the school went about it was poor. Yanking half of the scholarship of players, letting them find out the program was gone on the radio media reports - sounds like something Crean had done. Piss poor.
In case you were wondering, $50,000 in 1960 is worth $419,258.50 in today's dollars.
https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1954
https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=100&year=1920
CNN Money says $50,000 in 1960 is worth $394K http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/inflation-adjustment/
I have always thought the decision to drop football was a poor one. The benefits of football relative to the costs weighted very much in footballs favor .
Is interesting to note that both Fordham and Villanova have revived football and the programs have been well received.
Would love to see MU have a football program. It could start out in the Pioneer league where there are no scholarships, so essentially the cost would be no different than a D3 program. Games could be played at Hart Park.
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Late to the party here, but great thread.
4ever- Al’s first game back was UNLV, but he was in the truck, not courtside.
Dr. B- I disagree on Al being burnt out as a coach. IMO, the guy was a calculating nut and figured why not roll the dice and see what he could make outside of coaching. If we had not won it all his last season I believe he would have been back coaching within three years of retiring.
I do think the UNC and Joe Wolf not coming are two very big if’s. I know many here will say that it took Rick leaving for him to blossom, but that is an opinion, not fact. He very possibly would have become big time at MU with a couple of breaks.
Other two big ones to me, post Al, would like to have seen Vander play his senior year at MU. The other one, Shaka.
For the young guys, 4ever hit the big ones from the Al era. Those what ifs were differences in having another NC or two.
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What if Dodds and IWB ran the only MU websites?
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Archie
Walter’s girlfriend did not alter his decision on coming to MU from day one. But, I agree things might have been very different if he did come from day one.
Someone mentioned Denny Crum, to me that list could be twenty guys long for that hire. That one hire changed the fate of MU ball forever.
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Archie
Walter’s girlfriend did not alter his decision on coming to MU from day one. But, I agree things might have been very different if he did come from day one.
Someone mentioned Denny Crum, to me that list could be twenty guys long for that hire. That one hire changed the fate of MU ball forever.
126-50 yet Raymond's is considered a bad hire while people look back fondly at majerus. I get he was a major let down after Al but it just doesn't make sense to me
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Hurler
Not sure where the Rick bandwagon is on here, but probably another example of you knowing your stuff.
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126-50 yet Raymond's is considered a bad hire while people look back fondly at majerus. I get he was a major let down after Al but it just doesn't make sense to me
Majerus leaving Marquette was really the best thing he did for himself.
Raymonds was just faced with the difficulties of following a legend and being not quite good enough. (For comparison sake, my dad calls Greg Gard "UW's Hank Raymonds.")
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Dr. B- I disagree on Al being burnt out as a coach. IMO, the guy was a calculating nut and figured why not roll the dice and see what he could make outside of coaching. If we had not won it all his last season I believe he would have been back coaching within three years of retiring.
A nice NYT article on the Al decision...
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/sports/ncaabasketball/01mcguire.html
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Dr B
That is a great article. I still believe Al was a rare bird, and had probably had multiple options in his head when he left. He loved being different and I believe that had he not won in ‘77 he would have coached again. Whatever the case, imo he has the coolest early retirement in college ball history.
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A nice NYT article on the Al decision...
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/sports/ncaabasketball/01mcguire.html
Great article, Doc. Thanks for posting.
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Buycks was the whole team, last year
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Great article, Doc. Thanks for posting.
Someone mentioned that Al had a "failed" business career with Medalist. Was it really a "failure?" Or was it not what he thought it would be.
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MU82
My guess is corporate life was what Al expected it to be. It probably failed him, more than he failed.
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Someone mentioned that Al had a "failed" business career with Medalist. Was it really a "failure?" Or was it not what he thought it would be.
Probably both. Knew some people that were at Medalist at the time. Al just was not a corporate business guy.
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Probably both. Knew some people that were at Medalist at the time. Al just was not a corporate business guy.
Same. I've been told Al saw corporate America as what he saw as a coach. Golfing, liquid lunches and general hob-knobing. When Al saw the real work and responsibilities of outside of the glamorous, he was over his head.
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PTM
That is exactly what Al was hired to do. Only difference was there was time schedule, accountability and rules. Al’s last decade at MU was like he was self employed. Big difference between being the man and reporting to the man. I stand by my belief that Al took the job as an out, maybe he needed a break or maybe he wanted something bigger. Winning the NC changed his life as much as it changed MU’s future. This is one time Al might have outsmarted himself.
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PTM
That is exactly what Al was hired to do. Only difference was there was time schedule, accountability and rules. Al’s last decade at MU was like he was self employed. Big difference between being the man and reporting to the man. I stand by my belief that Al took the job as an out, maybe he needed a break or maybe he wanted something bigger. Winning the NC changed his life as much as it changed MU’s future. This is one time Al might have outsmarted himself.
Yep, just not a corporate business guy. I do think you at correct in saying that he took the job as an "out".
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MU82
My guess is corporate life was what Al expected it to be. It probably failed him, more than he failed.
I think you meant this to Sultan or somebody else, as I never once mentioned Al's corporate life.
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I think you have to consider the Jim Chones decision as the biggest what if in Marquette history. Others are more speculative while MU was clearly one of the top 2-3 teams in college basketball only a couple weeks away from the NCAA tourney when Chones left.
https://www.si.com/vault/1972/02/28/565952/because-a-steering-wheel-didnt-tilt
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Not at least a million, not even close. Not even in the same county. According to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and the Law school, the athletic department was $50,000 in the whole due to football. MU dropped football and track and field, despite being the largest Catholic school in the country at the time. Despite placing 70 players in the NFL, including four that were on the lats team to play at MU.
https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2012/11/23/more-on-marquette-football/
http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111563979.html
I was at MU in the early 70's, wounds of football still in the memories of many professors. MU pulled the plug, was short sighted on it. Only two schools dropped football from 1954 to 1972 - Marquette and Detroit. Most schools if they were going to drop did so prior to '54. It caught everyone by surprise. Father O'Donnell made a business decision, but it was nowhere near as dire as suggested and the way in which the school went about it was poor. Yanking half of the scholarship of players, letting them find out the program was gone on the radio media reports - sounds like something Crean had done. Piss poor.
In case you were wondering, $50,000 in 1960 is worth $419,258.50 in today's dollars.
https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1954
https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=100&year=1920
CNN Money says $50,000 in 1960 is worth $394K http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/inflation-adjustment/
wait...late 70's? you must be chicos dad then eyn'er?
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wait...late 70's? you must be chicos dad then eyn'er?
Whatever you say chicos.
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Ted
Chones leaving is a footnote to Al leaving. 22 was a top three player in school history, but Al had a ton more eligibility than Chones did.
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Ted
Chones leaving is a footnote to Al leaving. 22 was a top three player in school history, but Al had a ton more eligibility than Chones did.
Chones leading us to a championship game would have meant 3 in 7 years. That would have been the start of perhaps a permanent legacy for the school, which never materialized.
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Ted
Chones leaving is a footnote to Al leaving. 22 was a top three player in school history, but Al had a ton more eligibility than Chones did.
Goose
In the "what if" world everything is a footnote to Al's arrival and departure. The former made MU what it was and the latter prevented a dynasty. Everything else (while fun) is beside the point "French pastry".
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Archie
Walter’s girlfriend did not alter his decision on coming to MU from day one. But, I agree things might have been very different if he did come from day one.
Someone mentioned Denny Crum, to me that list could be twenty guys long for that hire. That one hire changed the fate of MU ball forever.
I was that someone
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Archie
Walter’s girlfriend did not alter his decision on coming to MU from day one. But, I agree things might have been very different if he did come from day one.
Someone mentioned Denny Crum, to me that list could be twenty guys long for that hire. That one hire changed the fate of MU ball forever.
Thanks. That was the story going around campus at the time, but I'm sure there was more to it.
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Newsdreams
Great call on Denny Crum. Not doubt a big time if in a storied history.
Archie
Have always loved your handle. Good news, Sir Walter ultimately landed here.
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Father Pilarz and Larry Williams weren't hired..
Then MU is on major probation and Lacrosse may never have gotten off the ground. Larry saved that program before it began.
Some other, less consequential what if’s:
-what if Dayton doesn’t offer Mike Dean in April 1994?
-what if Wade doesn’t run away from the ball on the final play against Tulsa in 2002?
-what if Hutch and Deane didn’t hate one another so much in 1998?
-what if Alton Mason doesn’t flunk out at midterms? He was reportedly dominating Hutch in practice.
-what if Crean isn’t so bullish on Wade that he gets Wade an in person meeting with Father Wild to get an exception to the prohibition on partial qualifiers?
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Then MU is on major probation and Lacrosse may never have gotten off the ground. Larry saved that program before it began.
Some other, less consequential what if’s:
-what if Dayton doesn’t offer Mike Dean in April 1994?
-what if Wade doesn’t run away from the ball on the final play against Tulsa in 2002?
-what if Hutch and Deane didn’t hate one another so much in 1998?
-what if Alton Mason doesn’t flunk out at midterms? He was reportedly dominating Hutch in practice.
-what if Crean isn’t so bullish on Wade that he gets Wade an in person meeting with Father Wild to get an exception to the prohibition on partial qualifiers?
Kevin O'Neill was tight with Mike Deane and persuaded Bill Cords to hire Coach Deane.
Alton Mason, speaking of him, anyone see his son who is a big time model? https://www.wmagazine.com/story/alton-mason-gucci-model
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Not at least a million, not even close. Not even in the same county. According to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and the Law school, the athletic department was $50,000 in the whole due to football. MU dropped football and track and field, despite being the largest Catholic school in the country at the time. Despite placing 70 players in the NFL, including four that were on the lats team to play at MU.
https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2012/11/23/more-on-marquette-football/
http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111563979.html
I was at MU in the early 70's, wounds of football still in the memories of many professors. MU pulled the plug, was short sighted on it. Only two schools dropped football from 1954 to 1972 - Marquette and Detroit. Most schools if they were going to drop did so prior to '54. It caught everyone by surprise. Father O'Donnell made a business decision, but it was nowhere near as dire as suggested and the way in which the school went about it was poor. Yanking half of the scholarship of players, letting them find out the program was gone on the radio media reports - sounds like something Crean had done. Piss poor.
In case you were wondering, $50,000 in 1960 is worth $419,258.50 in today's dollars.
https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=1&year=1954
https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=100&year=1920
CNN Money says $50,000 in 1960 is worth $394K http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/inflation-adjustment/
My recollection, 1961, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66 was that it was all about intellectual and moral excellence.
I don't recall any discussion about money except some talk about the cost of expanding the stadium. Oh, and the hooliganism that would accompany home games was also frequently discussed.
I was not in the inner circle, I'm still not, I was only a part-time waiter at the Jesuit refectory. The after hours "discussions" were mostly about the Vietnam war, and social justice. Football was quickly forgotten.
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Those of you who think killing football was a horrible decision need to consider the following:
1) In the past 20 years, very few football teams not in the Power 5 have been legitimate contenders for the national championship.
2) For Marquette to compete against the Alabamas, Auburns, Notre Dames, Tennessees, Wisconsins et al would have required massive investment in facilities, equipment, recruiting etc. We're just not enough of a football power to justify it even then.
3) Some of you will point to the example of Vanderbilt in the SEC, Northwestern in the BIG and Stanford out west. But all Vanderbilt is in the SEC is a coupon clipper living off SEC success. Northwestern occasionally is good and mostly bad and Stanford may be good enough when the PAC 10 is down but is not a perennial powerhouse.
4) If Marquette football were to have been successful, we would have either had to join the BIG 10, which likely would not have had us unless Northwestern or Illinois needed a win, or the Big 8. If we joined the Big 8, we eventually would have been caught up on the wrong side of realignment. I could not have seen us in either conference and there was no way long-term Notre Dame would play us regularly.
In short, we might have struggled through the 1960s with a football program but by the 1970s, we either would have been a Southern Illinois-style program with an occasional winning season and a small stadium and comparatively small investment, or we would have dumped it.
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Tulsa's the smallest D1 football program in the country. It's been a struggle and that is with some big buck oil men backing the program. SMU and Baylor made it on a bigger scale thanks to a large and wealthy alum base and oil money. The only Catholic university D1 program that has made it other than Notre Dame is Boston College. Marquette's timing was right if not the implementation that was less than kind to the student-athletes in the football program.
As to "what ifs" -- mine would be "what if" the administration realized when Al McGuire left that they needed to pony up dollars to keep things going. (facilities, recruiting budget and housing) McGuire got it done on the cheap and the administration didn't have a clue what it would take to keep pace and how to analyze the changing face of college basketball.
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Chones leading us to a championship game would have meant 3 in 7 years. That would have been the start of perhaps a permanent legacy for the school, which never materialized.
So, if Chones stays nothing changes moving forward? 74 and 77 materialize the same as they did?
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Archie
Have always loved your handle. Good news, Sir Walter ultimately landed here.
I saw Archie swing that bat multiple times, never towards my spot at the bar.
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Then MU is on major probation and Lacrosse may never have gotten off the ground. Larry saved that program before it began.
What would MU have been on major probation for if not for Pilarz and Larry? What specific events would have placed them on major probation?
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What would MU have been on major probation for if not for Pilarz and Larry? What specific events would have placed them on major probation?
the way Buzz was heading with academics and recruiting. Larry came in and cracked down on him severely, which is why Buzz went to the boosters to get rid of Larry.
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the way Buzz was heading with academics and recruiting. Larry came in and cracked down on him severely, which is why Buzz went to the boosters to get rid of Larry.
Who is going to save us this time!
Sport School Year Multi-year APR
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2004-2005 918
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2005-2006 927
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2006-2007 954
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2007-2008 970
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2008-2009 975
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2009-2010 980
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2010-2011 970
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2011-2012 960
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2012-2013 959
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2013-2014 949
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2014-2015 962
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2015-2016 966
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2016-2017 950
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What if I went to Nova instead of Marquette. I would be celebrating 3 National Championships instead of one.
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Who is going to save us this time!
Sport School Year Multi-year APR
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2004-2005 918
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2005-2006 927
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2006-2007 954
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2007-2008 970
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2008-2009 975
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2009-2010 980
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2010-2011 970
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2011-2012 960
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2012-2013 959
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2013-2014 949
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2014-2015 962
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2015-2016 966
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2016-2017 950
Wow. Truth don't jibe with Billy's "facts". More fake news.
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Wow. Truth don't jibe with Billy's "facts". More fake news.
I would be interested to hear how Larry "saved" lacrosse too? He doesn't even mention LAX in his own Akron bio.
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So, if Chones stays nothing changes moving forward? 74 and 77 materialize the same as they did?
Impossible to know. Maybe we don't make it in '74 and '77, maybe we get better recruits and beat out Indiana in '76. Absolutely impossible to know how things turn out.
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the way Buzz was heading with academics and recruiting. Larry came in and cracked down on him severely, which is why Buzz went to the boosters to get rid of Larry.
And Buzz was 100% correct to go to the boosters to get Larry fired. Guy was a tool and completely overmatched in his role as A.D., just as Pilarz was as President.
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So, if Chones stays nothing changes moving forward? 74 and 77 materialize the same as they did?
Most likely yes. We had Maurice Lucas when Chones was here. Bo Ellis was coming and the final key of our 1977 team was Butch Lee. Choses coming or going was not going to change things.
I'd argue in looking at these teams was the biggest what if... was if Jim Chones, Larry McNeill and then Maurice Lucas had played through their four years. A front line of Chones, McNeill and Lucas would have been unstoppable, as would a line of McNeill, Lucas and Ellis. The talent we had in the 1970s was unbelievable up and down the line-up. That's an awful lot of talent to lose.
We lost in 1972 because we had to adjust to no Chones and in 1975, not having Maurice Lucas left a huge hole in our line-up. Jerry Homan was good but he was not THAT good.
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And Buzz was 100% correct to go to the boosters to get Larry fired. Guy was a tool and completely overmatched in his role as A.D., just as Pilarz was as President.
I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion on Larry and Pilarz. But in no universe is it 100% correct for an employee to go behind his boss' back and ask people outside his organization to get his boss fired.
Pilarz was overmatched IMHO. Larry was....rough around the edges....but was capable. He was arguably the strongest individual force behind the reformation of the Big East. Without the work he put in, we might have been playing conference games against ECU and Tulane.
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Why would Chones leaving affect ‘74 or ‘77 in any way? What am I missed by here? Obviously his leaving affected the program in a big way, but not sure how it affected teams years down the road.
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Wright, #22's eligibility wooda expired in '73, hey?
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Why would Chones leaving affect ‘74 or ‘77 in any way? What am I missed by here? Obviously his leaving affected the program in a big way, but not sure how it affected teams years down the road.
The argument would go something like this. Chones stays, MU wins it all, MU becomes big headed and less hungry, fails to make it that far in 1974. That's one version, there are others. If you believe in the concept that every action has a reaction then the future constructs change if the past is changed. No guarantees of repeat performances if items of the past are not the same, thus it is impossible to know what would have happened. I'm of the belief that we would have solidified ourselves as a powerhouse of the lasting variety.
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The argument would go something like this. Chones stays, MU wins it all, MU becomes big headed and less hungry, fails to make it that far in 1974. That's one version, there are others.
Dumb argument.
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umm argument.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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#14 duzant foul out vs tOSU, aina?
Dean did not foul out. The refs fouled him out.
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Dean did not foul out. The refs fouled him out.
+1
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Was there ever an apology made by the refs of the Ohio State game in later years? I seem to recall something like that happening, but not sure. Thanks
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Was there ever an apology made by the refs of the Ohio State game in later years? I seem to recall something like that happening, but not sure. Thanks
The way I remember it was when the guys voted for their all -opponent team at the end of the year, one of those refs was the fifth guy on the team. I still remember the look of glee on the ref's face when he called Dean's fifth foul.
I've always assumed this was Adolph Rupp's doing. He hated Al.
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Not that I fault any of them leaving early.....what if Chones, Lucas & McNeill had played together?
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Not that I fault any of them leaving early.....what if Chones, Lucas & McNeill had played together?
A pipe dream. An awfully bid front line. Could not play all3 at the same time.
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Strongly disagree. In fact, their respective skill sets complement each other perfectly. Numbers 20, 22, and 31 woulda made a dynamite frontcourt going uptown with seashells and balloons.
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Most if not all of the key what ifs have been posted.
I have an odd one that lingers in my mind...a recent watching of the 30 for 30 on the Big East reminded me of a big what if.
I have always understood that MU had rebuffed inquiries/feelers to be part of the original Big East founding membership. We were a uniquely successful independent that controlled its schedule , were able to make the NCAAs often and had little need for the protection/benefit of automatic conference berthing....so we passed on the Big East back in 1978.
But....What if MU was a charter Big Easter in 1979 (Hanks year 2)?
Instead of a continued ever changing independent slate, Horizon, Great Midwest, and Conference USAs...and fighting for recognition /relevance during the years in the desert...The MU Big East slate would have included a powerful nations best BB conference....in its heyday.
What if....Would the Big East from 1979 to 2004 have possibly meant.....Attracting recruits, a big name coach and allowing us to bounce back from the diverted direction of Hank/Rick ...down the slippery slope.
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Most if not all of the key what ifs have been posted.
I have an odd one that lingers in my mind...a recent watching of the 30 for 30 on the Big East reminded me of a big what if.
I have always understood that MU had rebuffed inquiries/feelers to be part of the original Big East founding membership. We were a uniquely successful independent that controlled its schedule , were able to make the NCAAs often and had little need for the protection/benefit of automatic conference berthing....so we passed on the Big East back in 1978.
But....What if MU was a charter Big Easter in 1979 (Hanks year 2)?
Instead of a continued ever changing independent slate, Horizon, Great Midwest, and Conference USAs...and fighting for recognition /relevance during the years in the desert...The MU Big East slate would have included a powerful nations best BB conference....in its heyday.
What if....Would the Big East from 1979 to 2004 have possibly meant.....Attracting recruits, a big name coach and allowing us to bounce back from the diverted direction of Hank/Rick ...down the slippery slope.
We may have been asked to start a football team and ended up in the AAC with UConn.
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Those of you who think killing football was a horrible decision need to consider the following:
1) In the past 20 years, very few football teams not in the Power 5 have been legitimate contenders for the national championship.
2) For Marquette to compete against the Alabamas, Auburns, Notre Dames, Tennessees, Wisconsins et al would have required massive investment in facilities, equipment, recruiting etc. We're just not enough of a football power to justify it even then.
3) Some of you will point to the example of Vanderbilt in the SEC, Northwestern in the BIG and Stanford out west. But all Vanderbilt is in the SEC is a coupon clipper living off SEC success. Northwestern occasionally is good and mostly bad and Stanford may be good enough when the PAC 10 is down but is not a perennial powerhouse.
4) If Marquette football were to have been successful, we would have either had to join the BIG 10, which likely would not have had us unless Northwestern or Illinois needed a win, or the Big 8. If we joined the Big 8, we eventually would have been caught up on the wrong side of realignment. I could not have seen us in either conference and there was no way long-term Notre Dame would play us regularly.
In short, we might have struggled through the 1960s with a football program but by the 1970s, we either would have been a Southern Illinois-style program with an occasional winning season and a small stadium and comparatively small investment, or we would have dumped it.
Why is the argument that we would have had to compete for a national championship or against those schools you mentioned? We don't fit that mode for any of our sports now except men's basketball and men's lacrosse. 2/3 of the Big Ten doesn't compete for football national titles or against those schools? The same can be said for most major conferences. Why is it not ok to be like Vanderbilt football? Fresno State? San Diego State? Temple? Duke? Boston College? Some years they are pretty good, some years awful. So what.
Your example of NW or Vanderbilt are wrong in my view. Those programs know what they are, you don't have to compete for national titles and still bring value, campus cohesion, pride to campus. You think alumni of Vanderbilt or NW don't value those programs? The national stage they bring from time to time?
You go to extremes to say we would be SIU, but how do we know? There are any number of schools that manage to have decent football, competitive football that goes in cycles, but is not the equivalent of SIU. Temple struggled for years and has an all-time losing record, yet three straight bowl games and 28K attendance per year. One example, but others. It is also entirely possible to play football in one conference and every other sport in another.
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Who is going to save us this time!
Sport School Year Multi-year APR
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2004-2005 918
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2005-2006 927
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2006-2007 954
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2007-2008 970
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2008-2009 975
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2009-2010 980
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2010-2011 970
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2011-2012 960
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2012-2013 959
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2013-2014 949
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2014-2015 962
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2015-2016 966
Men's Basketball Marquette University WI 2016-2017 950
Wasn't the consternation that players were brought in that had zero chance of graduating because of all the physical education credits that do not transfer to Marquette?
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Wasn't the consternation that players were brought in that had zero chance of graduating because of all the physical education credits that do not transfer to Marquette?
If by "players" you mean one player you are correct. Every Marquette fan I know was ecstatic Jae Crowder came to Marquette. A few elitists (Scott Pilarz, Larry Williams and some dude named Jamie) disagreed. Good news, though - Pilarz and LW were fired quickly and left MU in disgrace. Jamie (aka Chico) disappeared after his assertions of "other shoes dropping" re Buzz Williams proved to be fake news.
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If by "players" you mean one player you are correct. Every Marquette fan I know was ecstatic Jae Crowder came to Marquette. A few elitists (Scott Pilarz, Larry Williams and some dude named Jamie) disagreed. Good news, though - Pilarz and LW were fired quickly and left MU in disgrace. Jamie (aka Chico) disappeared after his assertions of "other shoes dropping" re Buzz Williams proved to be fake news.
Chico's left after that?
I think not!
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If by "players" you mean one player you are correct. Every Marquette fan I know was ecstatic Jae Crowder came to Marquette. A few elitists (Scott Pilarz, Larry Williams and some dude named Jamie) disagreed. Good news, though - Pilarz and LW were fired quickly and left MU in disgrace. Jamie (aka Chico) disappeared after his assertions of "other shoes dropping" re Buzz Williams proved to be fake news.
Pretty sure it was Billy Hoyle that made the remarks about players, maybe he can clarify. Heard mixed reviews on the Williams two, did good things and not so good things. The only gripe for Buzz Williams in my book is the Big East shots he took. That has proven to be fake news. Have heard nothing but negatives regarding Father Pilarz.
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Why is it not ok to be like Vanderbilt football? Some years they are pretty good, some years awful. So what.
Your example of NW or Vanderbilt are wrong in my view. Those programs know what they are, you don't have to compete for national titles and still bring value, campus cohesion, pride to campus. You think alumni of Vanderbilt or NW don't value those programs? The national stage they bring from time to time?
You go to extremes to say we would be SIU, but how do we know? There are any number of schools that manage to have decent football, competitive football that goes in cycles, but is not the equivalent of SIU. T
I deleted parts of your post for brevity so I'll deal with the things I know well.
Let's start with Vanderbilt. They are a legacy SEC team dating to the conference's founding. I've been to enough Vandy football games in my life to almost qualify as a streetcar alum. They're awful. For a school that prides itself on excellence, football is an abomination. Does it bring the alums together -- not really. Just like I have serious doubts an MU football team would have even a fraction of the impact on our alumni base that our basketball program has.
Vanderbilt basketball is another story. It does for Vandy what Warrior basketball does for us.
And, I would add, if we were in the SEC in 1961, I doubt the Jesuits would have dropped football.
The Big 10 argument has some merit. But the difference is that every Big 10 school starts out thinking they will be competitive for a national championship. OK, except Illinois since they hired Lovie!
SIU is what our football program would be. Don't get me wrong, I actually really like SIU's football team. They try hard and they're fun to watch. But, they're still not very good. I've been to enough games in the last few years that they are indeed a source of pride for Southern Illinois residents. On an October afternoon, with the warm sun, the harvest in the air and the trees changing color, SIU football is indeed enjoyable.
To be anything other than SIU would mean a rejuvenated MU football program would have to compete against Wisconsin, the Green Bay Packers and, to some degree, the Brewers, for attention. Another question is where would we have played. Marquette Stadium was a dump and an Industrial Valley eyesore. It was torn down in the mid-1970s. County Stadium was to football stadiums as Michael Jordan or Tim Tebow are to .300 hitting baseball players.
Fast forward to the 1990s. We would have had a really bad stadium problem when Miller Park went up and County Stadium went down.
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4ever
I agree completely. Those three would have been unstoppable together. Honestly, the three different styles/strengths would have been beyond perfect fit.
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Dey were prototypical 3,4, and 5 position playas. Duzant get any better, than dem, aina?
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The way I remember it was when the guys voted for their all -opponent team at the end of the year, one of those refs was the fifth guy on the team. I still remember the look of glee on the ref's face when he called Dean's fifth foul.
I've always assumed this was Adolph Rupp's doing. He hated Al.
No, I am much more cynical than Adolph Rupp.
We played that game in Athens, GA, on the campus of the University of Georgia. Athens is about an hour to an hour and a half east of Atlanta and was at the time a provincial southern community IMHO.
The ref in question was likely an SEC-based referee. The NCAA, then as now, used "neutral" referees in tournament games. For a game between Ohio State and Marquette in the Mideast Regional, the neutral refs were likely to be SEC.
Recall that about the only African-American players in the SEC at the time were Bill Ligon and Perry Wallace at Vanderbilt and Henry Harris at Auburn. Further, the SEC played "finesse ball" and relatively few SEC referees had seen the type of ball Marquette played at the time (to see the difference, just watch the Vanderbilt/Marquette NCAA game from Tuscaloosa in 1974). As a consequence, the referee in that game was ill-prepared for the type of game we played.
Add to all that was the social environment of the time in the south, where the federal court system finally was requiring the expedient implementation of Brown vs. Board (which had been adjudicated 17 years before) and you had a volatile socio-political environment with a lot of very provincial, angry people looking for an outlet to express their rage.
Dean Meminger happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Let's start with Vanderbilt. They are a legacy SEC team dating to the conference's founding. I've been to enough Vandy football games in my life to almost qualify as a streetcar alum. They're awful. For a school that prides itself on excellence, football is an abomination. Does it bring the alums together -- not really. Just like I have serious doubts an MU football team would have even a fraction of the impact on our alumni base that our basketball program has.
Vanderbilt basketball is another story. It does for Vandy what Warrior basketball does for us.
And, I would add, if we were in the SEC in 1961, I doubt the Jesuits would have dropped football.
The Big 10 argument has some merit. But the difference is that every Big 10 school starts out thinking they will be competitive for a national championship. OK, except Illinois since they hired Lovie!
To be anything other than SIU would mean a rejuvenated MU football program would have to compete against Wisconsin, the Green Bay Packers and, to some degree, the Brewers, for attention. Another question is where would we have played. Marquette Stadium was a dump and an Industrial Valley eyesore. It was torn down in the mid-1970s. County Stadium was to football stadiums as Michael Jordan or Tim Tebow are to .300 hitting baseball players.
Fast forward to the 1990s. We would have had a really bad stadium problem when Miller Park went up and County Stadium went down.
Vanderbilt is not awful, they aren't great either. No chance of a national championship, but who cares. They have an all-time record of 600-613, practically .500.
Five bowl games since 2008. Beat ranked Kansas State last year. Some years they do decent, some years they are not that good, but they are worth of a football program. Many players that have made it to the NFL.
Every Big Ten school starts out thinking they will be competitive for a national championship? Indiana? Purdue? Minnesota? Maryland? Rutgers? Not a chance.
Marquette stadium was left to disrepair, that doesn't mean money could not have been put into it. County Stadium wasn't great, but still good enough to host NFL games for 40 years. Marquette played there. UWM football played there. That doesn't mean County Stadium was the only option.
UWM played football until 1974 at various levels. An idea would have been to build a joint stadium for both programs to use. That is one idea, but why be married to only County Stadium as the only option?
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Vanderbilt's all time SEC winning percentage is .242. The only team under .300. In fact, as far as I can tell, that is the worst conference record of any team in a current P5 conference outside of those who switched in the last ten or so years. (Like Rutgers.)
Vanderbilt as an awful football team considering where they are playing.
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Vanderbilt's all time SEC winning percentage is .242. The only team under .300. In fact, as far as I can tell, that is the worst conference record of any team in a current P5 conference outside of those who switched in the last ten or so years. (Like Rutgers.)
Vanderbilt as an awful football team considering where they are playing.
Can't believe Vanderbilt was bad when Stud Cutler was there. They musta won a couple national titles, no?
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Vanderbilt's all time SEC winning percentage is .242. The only team under .300. In fact, as far as I can tell, that is the worst conference record of any team in a current P5 conference outside of those who switched in the last ten or so years. (Like Rutgers.)
Vanderbilt as an awful football team considering where they are playing.
On the plus side, when you are done playing for those crappy teams, you leave with a degree from Vanderbilt.
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No, I am much more cynical than Adolph Rupp.
We played that game in Athens, GA, on the campus of the University of Georgia. Athens is about an hour to an hour and a half east of Atlanta and was at the time a provincial southern community IMHO.
The ref in question was likely an SEC-based referee. The NCAA, then as now, used "neutral" referees in tournament games. For a game between Ohio State and Marquette in the Mideast Regional, the neutral refs were likely to be SEC.
Recall that about the only African-American players in the SEC at the time were Bill Ligon and Perry Wallace at Vanderbilt and Henry Harris at Auburn. Further, the SEC played "finesse ball" and relatively few SEC referees had seen the type of ball Marquette played at the time (to see the difference, just watch the Vanderbilt/Marquette NCAA game from Tuscaloosa in 1974). As a consequence, the referee in that game was ill-prepared for the type of game we played.
Add to all that was the social environment of the time in the south, where the federal court system finally was requiring the expedient implementation of Brown vs. Board (which had been adjudicated 17 years before) and you had a volatile socio-political environment with a lot of very provincial, angry people looking for an outlet to express their rage.
Dean Meminger happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
These are good points. I do recall that the next night , in the consolation game, the guys just buried Kentucky 91-74.
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Vanderbilt's all time SEC winning percentage is .242. The only team under .300. In fact, as far as I can tell, that is the worst conference record of any team in a current P5 conference outside of those who switched in the last ten or so years. (Like Rutgers.)
Vanderbilt as an awful football team considering where they are playing.
Why does this matter? Not every team can compete for a national title each year. Or even middle of the pack, but they can still represent the school well. I recall Duke football being atrocious for so long, but they landed a few good coaches and are respectable.
Duke, Northwestern, Kansas State, Cal, Syracuse, Colorado so many others have had seasons even decades that were forgettable and yet survived and have had moments of very high caliber football. Even lowly Kansas finished in the top 5 (I think) about a decade ago.
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Why does this matter?
What matters is you tried to pump them up by saying things like "Vanderbilt is not awful, they aren't great either...they have an all-time record of 600-613, practically .500."
No. They are historically awful for a P5 program.
Look, I agree with you that if they want to have an awful football program, that's fine. But don't say they aren't awful. They are awful.
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What matters is you tried to pump them up by saying things like "Vanderbilt is not awful, they aren't great either...they have an all-time record of 600-613, practically .500."
No. They are historically awful for a P5 program.
Look, I agree with you that if they want to have an awful football program, that's fine. But don't say they aren't awful. They are awful.
+1. There are games, seasons, maybe even brief "eras" when they're not awful. But overall, they're a poster child for P5 awful. Chico is just arguing to be arguing. Nothing new there.
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On the plus side, when you are done playing for those crappy teams, you leave with a degree from Vanderbilt.
And a Vanderbilt attitude, which mitigates all of the good education from Vanderbilt.
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And a Vanderbilt attitude, which mitigates all of the good education from Vanderbilt.
That part is a choice. None of my friends who graduated from Vandy have it.
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Believe it or not, I know one or two domer grads that are sufferable....some of the time
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Believe it or not, I know one or two domer grads that are sufferable....some of the time
Who hacked RC's account?
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(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww295/SuperStratos/user8616_pic277_1214037416.jpg)
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What matters is you tried to pump them up by saying things like "Vanderbilt is not awful, they aren't great either...they have an all-time record of 600-613, practically .500."
No. They are historically awful for a P5 program.
Look, I agree with you that if they want to have an awful football program, that's fine. But don't say they aren't awful. They are awful.
I struggle to label a program that is nearly .500 and has five bowl games the last nine years as awful. Or over 100 NFL players in their history.
Awful is Kansas, they have zero bowl games the last 20 years. A few years back there was a report of the 25 worst programs (aka awful) in college football history. Vanderbilt didn't sniff that list. Northwester and Indiana did. Memphis did. UNLV.
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I struggle to label a program that is nearly .500 and has five bowl games the last nine years as awful. Or over 100 NFL players in their history.
Awful is Kansas, they have zero bowl games the last 20 years. A few years back there was a report of the 25 worst programs (aka awful) in college football history. Vanderbilt didn't sniff that list. Northwester and Indiana did. Memphis did. UNLV.
You sure seem to know a lot about Kansas and Indiana football.
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ND sucks
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Crean sucks
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Crean sucks
Do you think Crean will recruit Zaire?
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Y knot, hey?
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You sure seem to know a lot about Kansas and Indiana football.
Not really, other than Charlie Weiss was at one of them and did terribly. Pulled up an article of the worst college programs in the nation, top 25 worst, and they both made it along with the other schools I mentioned. Vanderbilt did not make it.
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Marquette documentary of George Andrie, who passed away this week. Never saw this or knew it was created until yesterday when Marquette fans were talking about it on social media. Narrated by Linda Cohn from ESPN. Very well done, some wonderful history of MU, why the school dropped football, a love story between Andrie and his future wife. Well worth the 20 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/v/MtuZt5Oqdng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtuZt5Oqdng
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My two cents on the original topic since I didn't see it mentioned.
What if Otule didn't tear his ACL in 2011-12. Don't think they beat Kentucky that year but if MU coulda played a lick of interior defense that year, that's a Final 4 team.
Other one, what if Odartey Blankston didn't transfer? OB instead of Townsend in the starting lineup?
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My two cents on the original topic since I didn't see it mentioned.
Other one, what if Odartey Blankston didn't transfer? OB instead of Townsend in the starting lineup?
Is this supposed to be a what if that would have resulted in better or worse results? We made the Final Four with Todd in the starting line up.
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Marquette documentary of George Andrie, who passed away this week. Never saw this or knew it was created until yesterday when Marquette fans were talking about it on social media. Narrated by Linda Cohn from ESPN. Very well done, some wonderful history of MU, why the school dropped football, a love story between Andrie and his future wife. Well worth the 20 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/v/MtuZt5Oqdng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtuZt5Oqdng
Lemme guess you knew him? Worked with him or backyard beers?
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My two cents on the original topic since I didn't see it mentioned.
What if Otule didn't tear his ACL in 2011-12. Don't think they beat Kentucky that year but if MU coulda played a lick of interior defense that year, that's a Final 4 team.
Other one, what if Odartey Blankston didn't transfer? OB instead of Townsend in the starting lineup?
I don't trust that we beat Louisville in the Elite 8 after that. They spanked us in the BE tournament and it had nothing to do with interior D. I do agree we beat Florida if Otule isn't injured though
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Lemme guess you knew him? Worked with him or backyard beers?
Chico is a whole bunch younger than George, but he was a big Cowboy fan so he might have rooted for him as a little kid.
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Thanks for posting the George Andre retrospective. I remember him as a hated Dallas Cowboy but my family had a great deal of pride in him as the last Warrior. It was nice to see him play even into the early 1970s.
As to the core topic, "what if" and football, there's a few final thoughts I'd like to make that are worthy of consideration:
1) The only successful private school Division 1 football team is Notre Dame. And they've had some very un-Notre Dame like seasons in the past 40 years or so. It's been quite awhile since they won a national championship and there's a long way from their next.
2) not everybody is going to win a natchamp in football., But wanting to win and building toward that goal is critical. Marquette had no hope of competing with the Power 5. not then. Not now.
3) Keep in mind when the decision was made. It was 1960 and even amateur demographrers could see what was coming. In but four years, the front end of the biggest population explosion this country had ever seen to that point was headed for college. By the late 1970s, the country would be educating 80 million people. Now look at Marquette's campus in 1960. It was extremely ill-equipped for the burden that was coming. As a consequence, the university built the Wehr science buildings, the language center, moved St. Joan of Arc Chapel, added on to the library and Engineering School, reconstructed Johnston Hall for the J-School, closed streets and created a campus. Every dime counted in those days and football, with its enormous costs and need for new facilities would have been, at a minimum, a huge distraction and possibly very detrimental to the university's goals at the time.
4) We got very lucky on basketball. When Al was retained to save the basketball program, it is doubtful anyone thought we were going to experience what was coming. Could we have caught lightening in a bottle twice with our football team? Never say never, but with decaying facilities and conflicting financial goals, it would have been really tough to hire and retain the best and brightest for MU football. Lou Holtz or Nick Saban to Marquette in those days? Yeah, right.
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Lemme guess you knew him? Worked with him or backyard beers?
Huh? https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56312.msg1023447#msg1023447
I already said he was older than me, never saw him play, why I have met him or known him? Worked with him?
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Thanks for posting the George Andre retrospective. I remember him as a hated Dallas Cowboy but my family had a great deal of pride in him as the last Warrior. It was nice to see him play even into the early 1970s.
As to the core topic, "what if" and football, there's a few final thoughts I'd like to make that are worthy of consideration:
1) The only successful private school Division 1 football team is Notre Dame. And they've had some very un-Notre Dame like seasons in the past 40 years or so. It's been quite awhile since they won a national championship and there's a long way from their next.
USC has been plenty successful.
And there have been a number of private schools who have seen success on and off. Stanford, Boston College, TCU, etc.
But you are correct that Marquette was right to drop football.
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Chico is a whole bunch younger than George, but he was a big Cowboy fan so he might have rooted for him as a little kid.
If you are implying I am a Cowgirls fan you could not be more incorrect. My NFL passion is mediocre and was raised in a house early on with Chicago Cardinal fans. I have mild interest in them (AZ Cardinals) and the Bears, but mild is as good as excited as it . My dad had an allegiance to a degree with the Steelers, too, because they merged with the Cards during the war due to player shortages.
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USC has been plenty successful.
And there have been a number of private schools who have seen success on and off. Stanford, Boston College, TCU, etc.
University of Miami
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Thanks for posting the George Andre retrospective. I remember him as a hated Dallas Cowboy but my family had a great deal of pride in him as the last Warrior. It was nice to see him play even into the early 1970s.
As to the core topic, "what if" and football, there's a few final thoughts I'd like to make that are worthy of consideration:
1) The only successful private school Division 1 football team is Notre Dame. And they've had some very un-Notre Dame like seasons in the past 40 years or so. It's been quite awhile since they won a national championship and there's a long way from their next.
2) not everybody is going to win a natchamp in football., But wanting to win and building toward that goal is critical. Marquette had no hope of competing with the Power 5. not then. Not now.
3) Keep in mind when the decision was made. It was 1960 and even amateur demographrers could see what was coming. In but four years, the front end of the biggest population explosion this country had ever seen to that point was headed for college. By the late 1970s, the country would be educating 80 million people. Now look at Marquette's campus in 1960. It was extremely ill-equipped for the burden that was coming. As a consequence, the university built the Wehr science buildings, the language center, moved St. Joan of Arc Chapel, added on to the library and Engineering School, reconstructed Johnston Hall for the J-School, closed streets and created a campus. Every dime counted in those days and football, with its enormous costs and need for new facilities would have been, at a minimum, a huge distraction and possibly very detrimental to the university's goals at the time.
4) We got very lucky on basketball. When Al was retained to save the basketball program, it is doubtful anyone thought we were going to experience what was coming. Could we have caught lightening in a bottle twice with our football team? Never say never, but with decaying facilities and conflicting financial goals, it would have been really tough to hire and retain the best and brightest for MU football. Lou Holtz or Nick Saban to Marquette in those days? Yeah, right.
You are welcome. We disagree on the other, but that is ok.
Private school football
BYU
Notre Dame
USC
Stanford
TCU
Miami
Duke
Wake Forrest
Northwestern
Baylor
Boston College
Syracuse
SMU
Temple
Vanderbilt
Tulane
Many more that are FCS
Bucknell
Fordham
Butler
Georgetown
Villanova
Colgate
Ivy League schools
Holy cross
Valparaiso
Vmi
Others
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I think Dgies meant only successful catholic football school.
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I think Dgies meant only successful catholic football school.
And he would fight you on the Vanderbilt thing.
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You are welcome. We disagree on the other, but that is ok.
Private school football
BYU
Notre Dame
USC
Stanford
TCU
Miami
Duke
Wake Forrest
Northwestern
Baylor
Boston College
Syracuse
SMU
Temple
Vanderbilt
Tulane
Many more that are FCS
Bucknell
Fordham
Butler
Georgetown
Villanova
Colgate
Ivy League schools
Holy cross
Valparaiso
Vmi
Others
Of these groups, the only ones that seem to be consistently excellent are USC and Notre Dame. Some might argue Miami and perhaps I was remiss in not including Miami and USC. TCU and Baylor might have a year or two where they cheat effectively enough to be in the Top 10, but those are few and far between.
But the core issue of being good enough to periodically hunt for or long for a natchamp remains. Unless you cheat (you listening SMU?), the costs aren't worth the results. That won't change.
Three private schools with consistently good, competitive football programs worthy of a Power 5 conference? not cool to keep going.
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And he would fight you on the Vanderbilt thing.
Only if someone thinks Vandy football has been successful.
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Of these groups, the only ones that seem to be consistently excellent are USC and Notre Dame. Some might argue Miami and perhaps I was remiss in not including Miami and USC. TCU and Baylor might have a year or two where they cheat effectivelky enough to be in the Top 10, but those are few and far between.
But the core issue of being good enough to periodically hunt for or long for a natchamp remains. Unless you cheat (you listening SMU?), the costs aren't worth the results. That won't change.
Three private schools with consistently good, competitive football programs worthy of a Power 5 conference? not cool to keep going.
TCU has been good in some decades and not in others. They claim national titles in the 1930’s, almost won one in the last 8 years. Ranked the 28th best college football program all time, 4th best private school all time. They have a Heisman winner.
Why is it that we have to be top 10 to justify? We aren’t a top 10 basketball program by the way. I don’t understand that qualifier. The goal should be competitive first, if top 10 is the min requirement why does MU bother to have an athletics program?
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If Chones, McNeil and Lucas had played one season together. No hate to the guys leaving early. Still wish Chones had finished the season he had started...
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Why is it that we have to be top 10 to justify? We aren’t a top 10 basketball program by the way. I don’t understand that qualifier. The goal should be competitive first, if top 10 is the min requirement why does MU bother to have an athletics program?
We don't and aren't.
But we have to build toward the day when we again are as good as we were under Coach McGuire.
The fact is that doing that is eminently more likely in basketball, where three really good players and four strong ones can make all the difference in the world. Teams like SIU, Wichita State, Butler, Loyola etc., will never make the NCAA Championship in football. And, frankly, neither would we in football. Not cool! But all of us have a chance in basketball.
In some ways, being a St. Louis Cardinals fan is akin to what I am trying to explain. You know you're not going to win the World Series every year. But you're not going to accept a team that doesn't try to get there, isn't hustling and not making progress. Same for football. Tennessee isn't going to win every year (much to the chagrin of half the Volunteer State) but they damn well better be trying to and moving in the direction of someday overtaking Alabama.
Why is much of this board aggravated with Wojo? It's not happening fast enough. Forget the sh*t sandwich Coach Wojo inherited. We're Marquette! We're expecting excellence! And when we don't get it -- find a new coach!!!!!
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We don't and aren't.
But we have to build toward the day when we again are as good as we were under Coach McGuire.
The fact is that doing that is eminently more likely in basketball, where three really good players and four strong ones can make all the difference in the world. Teams like SIU, Wichita State, Butler, Loyola etc., will never make the NCAA Championship in football. And, frankly, neither would we in football. Not cool! But all of us have a chance in basketball.
In some ways, being a St. Louis Cardinals fan is akin to what I am trying to explain. You know you're not going to win the World Series every year. But you're not going to accept a team that doesn't try to get there, isn't hustling and not making progress. Same for football. Tennessee isn't going to win every year (much to the chagrin of half the Volunteer State) but they damn well better be trying to and moving in the direction of someday overtaking Alabama.
Why is much of this board aggravated with Wojo? It's not happening fast enough. Forget the sh*t sandwich Coach Wojo inherited. We're Marquette! We're expecting excellence! And when we don't get it -- find a new coach!!!!!
Completely unrealistic. Wojo is fine. Knowing you are a Cards fan now explains some things. :)
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Completely unrealistic. Wojo is fine.
I'm not saying he isn't. I'm summarizing what I read.
I think this is a critical year for Coach Wojo but he's fine.
And, Cub Fan, we Cardinal fans do expect to win and we get testy when we don't. Fortunately, it's only been in the past few years that we have had problems and management is working to rectify those problems!
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I'm not saying he isn't. I'm summarizing what I read.
I think this is a critical year for Coach Wojo but he's fine.
And, Cub Fan, we Cardinal fans do expect to win and we get testy when we don't. Fortunately, it's only been in the past few years that we have had problems and management is working to rectify those problems!
You have come on strong lately since canning your manager. My remarks on football or for that matter any college athletics program has to do with what is realistic and possible. Our women’s volleyball team is not going to win a national title, nor is track or soccer for men or women. They are still fine programs worth having and develop young people. Football is the same for most schools who know they are not going to win a national championship, but the mentality isn’t boom or bust and drop it if it national championships aren’t won.
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I follow football very little (both college and professionally) but something that I think is interesting about the college game is the amount of bowl games there are, and the amount of prestige that come with winning even a lesser bowl. You can have a mediocre football program and still make a bowl game. Would MU have a program good enough to even make a bowl game if they had stuck with it? And how would having a football team affected the basketball program?
You can still have a successful football program without winning a national championship.
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To answer your question DJO. No, and mediocre.
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To answer your question DJO. No, and mediocre.
Don't know enough about football to disagree, and even if I did, not sure I would. Not having football allowed us to stick with the C7, which I think is the biggest single most important event since joining the Beast.
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If Marquette had stuck with football, we wouldn’t be in the Big East now. At best we’d be in a conference like the American, but more likely the MAC or even dropping to FCS playing in something like the Missouri Valley.
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If Marquette had stuck with football, we wouldn’t be in the Big East now. At best we’d be in a conference like the American, but more likely the MAC or even dropping to FCS playing in something like the Missouri Valley.
Look at the corner that a school like UConn backed itself in. It wished to pursue high-level Division I football in the 90's, leading to the elevation of their DII program into FBS in 2002. They spent a truckload of money on their stadium, their facilities and the coaching staffs - which culminated in their 2011 Fiesta Bowl appearance (where they got destroyed by Oklahoma). Not only did they get blown out, but they didn't even get many fans to the game. They got passed over by the ACC and Big 12, gotten leapfrogged in their own Conference USA-inspired league by UCF, USF, Memphis, Houston and others. You can even make the argument that their basketball program has suffered as a result, culminating in the firing of Kevin Ollie this past Spring.
The lesson here, and as you allude to, had Marquette continued with football, it would have inevitably and irrefutably negatively impacted basketball, as well as our entire athletics department. We are - for the first time in our basketball history - aligned with similar athletic programs and institutions with a clear focus on men's basketball. It was a bumpy ride to get there, but I'm glad where we ended up.
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Look at the corner that a school like UConn backed itself in. It wished to pursue high-level Division I football in the 90's, leading to the elevation of their DII program into FBS in 2002. They spent a truckload of money on their stadium, their facilities and the coaching staffs - which culminated in their 2011 Fiesta Bowl appearance (where they got destroyed by Oklahoma). Not only did they get blown out, but they didn't even get many fans to the game. They got passed over by the ACC and Big 12, gotten leapfrogged in their own Conference USA-inspired league by UCF, USF, Memphis, Houston and others. You can even make the argument that their basketball program has suffered as a result, culminating in the firing of Kevin Ollie this past Spring.
The lesson here, and as you allude to, had Marquette continued with football, it would have inevitably and irrefutably negatively impacted basketball, as well as our entire athletics department. We are - for the first time in our basketball history - aligned with similar athletic programs and institutions with a clear focus on men's basketball. It was a bumpy ride to get there, but I'm glad where we ended up.
Nicely articulated.
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Look at the corner that a school like UConn backed itself in. It wished to pursue high-level Division I football in the 90's, leading to the elevation of their DII program into FBS in 2002. They spent a truckload of money on their stadium, their facilities and the coaching staffs - which culminated in their 2011 Fiesta Bowl appearance (where they got destroyed by Oklahoma). Not only did they get blown out, but they didn't even get many fans to the game. They got passed over by the ACC and Big 12, gotten leapfrogged in their own Conference USA-inspired league by UCF, USF, Memphis, Houston and others. You can even make the argument that their basketball program has suffered as a result, culminating in the firing of Kevin Ollie this past Spring.
The lesson here, and as you allude to, had Marquette continued with football, it would have inevitably and irrefutably negatively impacted basketball, as well as our entire athletics department. We are - for the first time in our basketball history - aligned with similar athletic programs and institutions with a clear focus on men's basketball. It was a bumpy ride to get there, but I'm glad where we ended up.
Not if we had a program in football like Villanova or Georgetown, bot in the Big East.
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Not if we had a program in football like Villanova or Georgetown, bot in the Big East.
At what cost? To have an FCS-level program? Georgetown is unable to award scholarships to football players, and their program is awful. If we go down the path of scholarships, where do the Women's scholarships go to? Where do you play?
No, no and no. We are fortunate to not have football. A majority of FBS teams (non-Power 5) are chasing a fool's dream in regards of big time football. Schools are spending incessant amounts of money trying to compete with the established programs, but they do not have the history, the tradition or the past success to do so. When a school like Kansas is spending hundreds of millions of dollars in football renovations, and schools like UConn, Memphis, Houston, UCF and USF are earning $1.7 million annually in television revenue, not only has the race already ended, but non-P5 programs are being lapped time and time again in resources, facilities and following with each passing year.
There is already a division within FBS between the P5 and the G5. If you are unable to compete against the high levels of your sport, why pump-in exuberant amounts of money in order to try attain the same levels of success?
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UNC-Charlotte had a decent basketball program for years. It slipped the last decade or so but they were still in a good hoops league, the A-10.
Then they went against the trend and decided to start a football program. They built a nice little stadium on campus and they gave a pretty big budget to the program. It has been a total disaster on the field and attendance, which was high initially thanks to the anticipation and the new stadium, is horrible now.
Meanwhile, the entire athletic program joined C-USA to accommodate football. Like football, the basketball program is now a laughingstock.
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You are welcome. We disagree on the other, but that is ok.
Private school football
BYU
Notre Dame
USC
Stanford
TCU
Miami
Duke
Wake Forrest
Northwestern
Baylor
Boston College
Syracuse
SMU
Temple
Vanderbilt
Tulane
Many more that are FCS
Bucknell
Fordham
Butler
Georgetown
Villanova
Colgate
Ivy League schools
Holy cross
Valparaiso
Vmi
Others
One of the three great historical strategic mistakes of MU was giving up the football program . The program went through some tough years but was turning the corner when the administration pulled the plug.
I would love to see MU have a non scholarship FCS program. They can play in the Pioneer Football League. Games would be played at Hart Park and it would definitely be a loud and fun crowd environment . Villanova, Georgetown and Butler all have similar programs. Dayton has been consistently solid over the years.
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UNC-Charlotte had a decent basketball program for years. It slipped the last decade or so but they were still in a good hoops league, the A-10.
Then they went against the trend and decided to start a football program. They built a nice little stadium on campus and they gave a pretty big budget to the program. It has been a total disaster on the field and attendance, which was high initially thanks to the anticipation and the new stadium, is horrible now.
Meanwhile, the entire athletic program joined C-USA to accommodate football. Like football, the basketball program is now a laughingstock.
UNC Charlotte basketball has had ONE winning conference season the last 10 years. Football started their first season 5 years ago. Basketball woes started at UNCC with hanging on to Lutz for too long and the two horrible hires after. Now they have a brand new coach and prospects remain dim.
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UNC Charlotte basketball has had ONE winning conference season the last 10 years. Football started their first season 5 years ago. Basketball woes started at UNCC with hanging on to Lutz for too long and the two horrible hires after. Now they have a brand new coach and prospects remain dim.
As I said: UNC-Charlotte had a decent basketball program for years. It slipped the last decade or so but they were still in a good hoops league, the A-10.
Thanks for the confirmation. You complete me.
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One of the three great historical strategic mistakes of MU was giving up the football program . The program went through some tough years but was turning the corner when the administration pulled the plug.
Yes. We right now we could be debating what place we would finish in the MAC West and assessing our odds of playing in the Motor City Bowl next year. We also would be discussing this upcoming basketball season and where we would finish in the one or two bid league of which we are a member.
Sounds like fun.
I would love to see MU have a non scholarship FCS program. They can play in the Pioneer Football League. Games would be played at Hart Park and it would definitely be a loud and fun crowd environment . Villanova, Georgetown and Butler all have similar programs. Dayton has been consistently solid over the years.
Villanova is a scholarship FCS program. Regardless the crowds would be dismal and lame. The Pioneer League averages 3,000 or so per game. What on God's green earth does that do for Marquette?
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Al had nothing left in the tank. He was mentally done with coaching or he would have taken another job, even after his failed foray into business. His broadcasting career lasted almost as long as his coaching career, where he could be the philosopher, street observer, game analyst, story teller and champion of the greatest era of the game.
To me the question would have been then, what if Al didn't leave? As great as he was for Marquette, he was greater gone. He would have become a burnt out, fired coach at Marquette. His genius was timing.
Al also recognized that the formation of the Big East was going to dry up his NYC pipeline. I agree with everything you said...
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Al also recognized that the formation of the Big East was going to dry up his NYC pipeline. I agree with everything you said...
Even so if what the old timers say about Aguirre Cummings and Thomas are true he would've had one hell of a Chicago pipeline for a few more years
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Al also recognized that the formation of the Big East was going to dry up his NYC pipeline. I agree with everything you said...
This is true, but some of Al's very good players were not from NYC. Bo Ellis, Jim Chones, Maurice Lucas, Lloyd Walton, Larry McNeil, Marcus Washington, Bob Lackey, Cobb, George Thompson, Whitehead, Rosenberger.
EDIT for correction. George Thompson no, Ulice Payne yes.
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This is true, but some of Al's very good players were not from NYC. Bo Ellis, Jim Chones, Maurice Lucas, Lloyd Walton, Larry McNeil, Marcus Washington, Bob Lackey, Cobb, George Thompson, Whitehead, Rosenberger.
Thompson was from Brooklyn.
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Thompson was from Brooklyn.
Like I said, not from New York. ;D He graduated before my arrival, thought he was from Pittsburgh, but I may have confused that with Ulice Payne. Age does that to you.
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Like I said, not from New York. ;D He graduated before my arrival, thought he was from Pittsburgh, but I may have confused that with Ulice Payne. Age does that to you.
Brooklyn has been a borough since before 1900.
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This is true, but some of Al's very good players were not from NYC. Bo Ellis, Jim Chones, Maurice Lucas, Lloyd Walton, Larry McNeil, Marcus Washington, Bob Lackey, Cobb, George Thompson, Whitehead, Rosenberger.
EDIT for correction. George Thompson no, Ulice Payne yes.
Ric Cobb was from Brooklyn.
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Brooklyn has been a borough since before 1900.
There was some sarcasm in my response, blue font will be used next time to be more illustrative. :D
Though if you are old enough you will recall there has always been an edge by Brooklyn residents, especially in sports. There was a sentiment from Brooklyn Dodger fans that went something along the line of "I'm not from New York, I'm from Brooklyn". It was a sense of pride they lived in the rough and tumble Brooklyn borough, they were tough, could take anything and a way for them to disassociate themselves from the Yankees (Bronx) and NY Giants (Manhattan) fans.
That came back a little a few years ago when the Nets moved to Brooklyn and took the name of the borough, rather than NY Nets which was part of their history.
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Sometimes i read a post and then just want to punch myself in the face. More often than not, i look up and see it was written by chicos. Simply unsufferable.
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Blue font ::)
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Not if we had a program in football like Villanova or Georgetown, bot in the Big East.
Villanova knocked off Temple today. FCS over FBS. Temple went to a bowl game last year. Big East football fever, catch it. ;D
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Sometimes i read a post and then just want to punch myself in the face. More often than not, i look up and see it was written by chicos. Simply unsufferable.
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Villanova knocked off Temple today. FCS over FBS. Temple went to a bowl game last year. Big East football fever, catch it. ;D
Butler knocked off Youngstown State too. Great day for the Big East football programs.
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Butler knocked off Youngstown State too. Great day for the Big East football programs.
Did Marquette Club Football beat Pillsbury Bible College this weekend?
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Did Marquette Club Football beat Pillsbury Bible College this weekend?
Yeah but its not that hard. Their S&C program needs some work.
(https://media.nbcwashington.com/images/652*489/Pillsbury+Doughboy.jpg)
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Yeah but its not that hard. Their S&C program needs some work.
(https://media.nbcwashington.com/images/652*489/Pillsbury+Doughboy.jpg)
Hee hee!