Christian McCaffery

[MerrittsMustache]

I would be fine with my child talking with his coach weeks before the bowl game and telling him why he was making the decision he is making.  If people want to use loaded words like "quit," I would tell him to ignore those guys and move on.

How is it not quitting?

[GGGG]

How is it not quitting?

You and I both know that people use the word "quit" in certain circumstances as a value judgement.  Especially in sports. 

Did Traci Carter "quit on his teammates?"  I mean I guess by the very definition yes.  But again it is a loaded term.  That's why I don't recall it being used much (if at all) when it came to his transfer.

[MU82]

How is it not quitting?

Did Tom Herman quit on Houston 3 weeks before their bowl game?

Did Nick Saban quit on several teams over the years?

Did Shaka Smart quit on VCU?

Did Roy Williams quit on Kansas?

Did Gary Barnett quit on Northwestern?

Did Tom Creane quit on Marquette?

Did Buzz Williams quit on New Orleans and Marquette?

Did Bill Self quit on Tulsa and Illinois?

Shall I go on with people in athletics who make business decisions? The list is long. Are all of them quitters?

[muwarrior69]

Did Tom Herman quit on Houston 3 weeks before their bowl game?

Did Nick Saban quit on several teams over the years?

Did Shaka Smart quit on VCU?

Did Roy Williams quit on Kansas?

Did Gary Barnett quit on Northwestern?

Did Tom Creane quit on Marquette?

Did Buzz Williams quit on New Orleans and Marquette?

Did Bill Self quit on Tulsa and Illinois?

Shall I go on with people in athletics who make business decisions? The list is long. Are all of them quitters?

I thought he was fired, asked to resign, told in an ambiguous way "your no longer wanted", quit. A distinction without a difference.

[4everwarriors]

Crean sucks

[brewcity77]

Heard an interview with an NFL scout saying he would downgrade him immediately and that if he'd quit on his college team in a "meaningless bowl game" then why wouldn't he do the same if it was late in the season before free agency and he was on a non playoff team?

I understand the business aspect, but when you are going to work in a field where your job is literally to be accountable to the other guys on the roster and expecting that same accountability from them, I have no problem with scouts downgrading him or considering this type of behavior undraftable.

Teams need to know their players will be committed all season long. Teammates need to know you will risk injury making a block to save them from a blindside injury. These are big money, big ratings games. The bowl season is what college football players play for. At what point is protecting yourself actually just being selfish and a bad team player?

[GooooMarquette]

Heard an interview with an NFL scout saying he would downgrade him immediately and that if he'd quit on his college team in a "meaningless bowl game" then why wouldn't he do the same if it was late in the season before free agency and he was on a non playoff team?

I understand the business aspect, but when you are going to work in a field where your job is literally to be accountable to the other guys on the roster and expecting that same accountability from them, I have no problem with scouts downgrading him or considering this type of behavior undraftable.

Teams need to know their players will be committed all season long. Teammates need to know you will risk injury making a block to save them from a blindside injury. These are big money, big ratings games. The bowl season is what college football players play for. At what point is protecting yourself actually just being selfish and a bad team player?

Yeah, but some here recommend ignoring anyone who uses words like "quit."  So I guess it makes sense for an NFL prospect to ignore the opinions of NFL scouts.

[GGGG]

Heard an interview with an NFL scout saying he would downgrade him immediately and that if he'd quit on his college team in a "meaningless bowl game" then why wouldn't he do the same if it was late in the season before free agency and he was on a non playoff team?

Because he's getting paid for one and not the other. 

[MU82]

Heard an interview with an NFL scout saying he would downgrade him immediately and that if he'd quit on his college team in a "meaningless bowl game" then why wouldn't he do the same if it was late in the season before free agency and he was on a non playoff team?

I understand the business aspect, but when you are going to work in a field where your job is literally to be accountable to the other guys on the roster and expecting that same accountability from them, I have no problem with scouts downgrading him or considering this type of behavior undraftable.

Teams need to know their players will be committed all season long. Teammates need to know you will risk injury making a block to save them from a blindside injury. These are big money, big ratings games. The bowl season is what college football players play for. At what point is protecting yourself actually just being selfish and a bad team player?

I'm not sure where McCaffrey and Fournette are projected to be drafted, but I'd be surprised if they really were downgraded by enough scouts for these decisions to matter.

If either of them were playing in the NFL, they'd be getting paid X dollars per game. They wouldn't quit. It's a false equivalency.

BTW, Ed McCaffrey, a 13-year NFL veteran, absolutely is siding with his son on this decision. Of course. It's logical.

Right now, this seems to some like an extreme measure. But it will become more and more prevalent, and I say, "Good for them." Once upon a time, it was radical for a basketball player to leave college early for the NBA, too.

Hey, the athletes FINALLY have some control over something, and it drives coaches and some others nuts. It's like graduate transfer rule -- the coaches lose a little control and want to close the loophole.

I applaud McCaffrey, Fournette and the dozens and dozens of other young men who are going to be doing this in future years.

It's smart, and it's common sense. I don't see any of the detractors guaranteeing to compensate these guys for lost earnings due to a catastrophic injury in the Beef O Brady Bowl.

Finally ...

Nobody answered my question. Did Tom Herman quit on Houston?

Crickets.

[MerrittsMustache]

It's smart, and it's common sense. I don't see any of the detractors guaranteeing to compensate these guys for lost earnings due to a catastrophic injury in the Beef O Brady Bowl.

Finally ...

Nobody answered my question. Did Tom Herman quit on Houston?

Crickets.

Again, what's the difference between a no-name bowl and a game in October when a team is 4-4 with a couple of conference losses? The team is just playing out the string. Why risk injury then?

Yes. Tom Herman quit on Houston. That's not apples to apples though because McCaffery doesn't already have another job. He's "training" to get another job. It would be like if Herman quit so he could prepare his resume and hone his interview skills for when he meets with Texas, LSU, etc.

The basketball coaches you mentioned all quit AFTER the season. That's no different than a player leaving early for a better opportunity.

[GGGG]

Again, what's the difference between a no-name bowl and a game in October when a team is 4-4 with a couple of conference losses? The team is just playing out the string. Why risk injury then?

Yes. Tom Herman quit on Houston. That's not apples to apples though because McCaffery doesn't already have another job. He's "training" to get another job. It would be like if Herman quit so he could prepare his resume and hone his interview skills for when he meets with Texas, LSU, etc.

How can McC train to get another job when he never had a job in the the first place?

[GGGG]

The basketball coaches you mentioned all quit AFTER the season. That's no different than a player leaving early for a better opportunity.

Well how about Traci Carter then?  Here is what you said when he left.

Traci is a rich man's Derrick Wilson. He's a hard-nosed player who's a solid defender, good ball-handler and limited shooter. He had value as a back-up PG but he probably wanted more. Can't blame him for that. I wish him the best.

How is what Traci Carter did fundamentally different than what McC did?

You can't blame Traci for wanting more and transferring.  But McCaffrey "quit on his teammates?"

[MerrittsMustache]

How can McC train to get another job when he never had a job in the the first place?

You're going to argue semantics of what I wrote? Strong point 

[MerrittsMustache]

Well how about Traci Carter then?  Here is what you said when he left.

How is what Traci Carter did fundamentally different than what McC did?

You can't blame Traci for wanting more and transferring.  But McCaffrey "quit on his teammates?"

Yes. Traci quit on his teammates. I also said that I understand where McC was coming from. The difference, which you're smart enough to know, is that Traci was a third-string PG, not hands down the best player on the team. Traci quit because he wasn't going to play. McC quit because he's better than his teammates and doesn't want to waste his time or risk injury. Both players were looking out for their own best interests to varying degrees of detriment to the team (for lack of a better phrase). I wish McC the best too but I still think he's quitting.

[GGGG]

Yes. Traci quit on his teammates. I also said that I understand where McC was coming from. The difference, which you're smart enough to know, is that Traci was a third-string PG, not hands down the best player on the team. Traci quit because he wasn't going to play. McC quit because he's better than his teammates and doesn't want to waste his time or risk injury. Both players were looking out for their own best interests to varying degrees of detriment to the team (for lack of a better phrase). I wish McC the best too but I still think he's quitting.

Given what you said earlier...

I can understand the logic behind his decision, but the young man quit on his team. Plain and simple. I wouldn't do that and I wouldn't want any of my children to do that. If you're fine with quitting on your team, so be it.

You are therefore "fine with quitting on your team," when you are a 3rd string PG and not a star player.

You have stared to place a lot of conditions on whether or not someone gets a "quitter" label or not. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Given what you said earlier...

You are therefore "fine with quitting on your team," when you are a 3rd string PG and not a star player.

You have stared to place a lot of conditions on whether or not someone gets a "quitter" label or not.

I actually said that Traci quit on his team so no, I'm not putting a lot of conditions on it. You're making a lot of inferences.

Merry Christmas, all!


EDIT: Sultan, I appreciate you removing the sentence that I took exception to even before I took exception to it.

[GGGG]

EDIT: Sultan, I appreciate you removing the sentence that I took exception to even before I took exception to it.

My goal is to be less snarky in 2017 and decided to get an early start.

Merry Christmas!

[Tugg Speedman]

I remember being a HS football player in the late-90s, watching bowl games and thinking that it'd be awesome to get to play a "bonus" game of football at the end of the season.

To each his own.

Because for you the ultimate achievement would have been playing in college on a bowl team.  For McCaffery that is just a stepping stone to better things (besides he has already played in more meaningful bowl games already).

Or ... take the same situation and an agent is telling you about the millions you will get when drafted in April by the NFL.  And that agent says that nothing you do in the bowl game can improve your draft stock but if you get seriously hurt all those millions are at significant risk.

It would not be a hard call for you.

[Tugg Speedman]

Do we feel the same way about McCaffery as we do about all those Stanford tech geniuses that formed their ideas at Stanford or bailed on school early to start their companies to make themselves rich?

• Instagram cofounders Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger met through the Stanford alumni network.
• Trulia cofounders Pete Flint and Sami Inkinen met during class at the Graduate School of Business.
• The idea for StubHub came out of a business plan competition at Stanford
• Loopt was founded by three Stanford sophomores
• Bonobos cofounders Brian Spaly and Andy Dunn were housemates while at Stanford
• Snapchat cofounders Evan Spiegel and Bobby Murphy were frat brothers at Stanford
• Ren Ng created the technology for the Lytro camera while researching at Stanford
• Pulse was created by two Stanford grad students in a "Launchpad" class
• Coursera was founded by two Stanford professors
• In 1994 Jerry Yang and David Filo, while students at Stanford created Yahoo
• Larry Page and Sergey Brin met during a campus tour at Stanford, became friends as students and started Google
• William Hewlett & David Packard met in the 1930s while at Stanford and started Hewlett Packard
• in 1982 Vinod Khosla, Andy Bechtolsheim, and Scott McNealy, all Stanford graduate students, founded Sun Microsystems.  It name is from Stanford University Network

Aren't they the same as McCaffery?  Why is McCaffery greedy for not wanting to risk injury and the rest are not greedy for not letting their ideas become the property of Stanford university?

Or is Stanford University the greatest collection of greedy people ever assembled?

[GooooMarquette]

Do we feel the same way about McCaffery as we do about all those Stanford tech geniuses that formed their ideas at Stanford or bailed on school early to start their companies to make themselves rich?

• Instagram cofounders Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger met through the Stanford alumni network.
• Trulia cofounders Pete Flint and Sami Inkinen met during class at the Graduate School of Business.
• The idea for StubHub came out of a business plan competition at Stanford
• Loopt was founded by three Stanford sophomores
• Bonobos cofounders Brian Spaly and Andy Dunn were housemates while at Stanford
• Snapchat cofounders Evan Spiegel and Bobby Murphy were frat brothers at Stanford
• Ren Ng created the technology for the Lytro camera while researching at Stanford
• Pulse was created by two Stanford grad students in a "Launchpad" class
• Coursera was founded by two Stanford professors
• In 1994 Jerry Yang and David Filo, while students at Stanford created Yahoo
• Larry Page and Sergey Brin met during a campus tour at Stanford, became friends as students and started Google
• William Hewlett & David Packard met in the 1930s while at Stanford and started Hewlett Packard
• in 1982 Vinod Khosla, Andy Bechtolsheim, and Scott McNealy, all Stanford graduate students, founded Sun Microsystems.  It name is from Stanford University Network

Aren't they the same as McCaffery?  Why is McCaffery greedy for not wanting to risk injury and the rest are not greedy for not letting their ideas become the property of Stanford university?

Or is Stanford University the greatest collection of greedy people ever assembled?

You forgot one tiny detail - McCaffrey was part of a TEAM that still has a game to play.  But yeah, other than that, they're all the "same."

[Tugg Speedman]

You forgot one tiny detail - McCaffrey was part of a TEAM that still has a game to play.  But yeah, other than that, they're all the "same."

Some of the above are Stanford professors that were using Stanford resources and getting paid while developing their ideas.  Ditto the graduate students that were working on projects (like the Google guys) and when these projects looked like it would pay off, they quit and started their own company to profit from it.

Then when they became commercially viable, they quit, start their own company and became rich.  So they were part of the Stanford "team" in the sense you were thinking of.

[GooooMarquette]

Some of the above are Stanford professors that were using Stanford resources and getting paid while developing their ideas.  Ditto the graduate students that were working on projects (like the Google guys) and when these projects looked like it would pay off, they quit and started their own company to profit from it.

Then when they became commercially viable, they quit, start their own company and became rich.  So they were part of the Stanford "team" in the sense you were thinking of.

#graspingatstraws

[MU82]

Again, what's the difference between a no-name bowl and a game in October when a team is 4-4 with a couple of conference losses? The team is just playing out the string. Why risk injury then?

Yes. Tom Herman quit on Houston. That's not apples to apples though because McCaffery doesn't already have another job. He's "training" to get another job. It would be like if Herman quit so he could prepare his resume and hone his interview skills for when he meets with Texas, LSU, etc.

I'll tell you what, MM, when players start leaving teams in the middle of the season, I'll think about taking your side. Until then, it's a classic strawman argument.

I happen to think McCaffrey is doing the smart, logical thing. And based on what I've seen his teammates say, it looks like the VAST majority of them support his decision and don't think he has "quit" on them at all.

He'll be able to live with some coaches he doesn't care about and some anonymous interwebs posters feeling otherwise, I'm sure.

The difference between McCaffrey and Herman is that Herman already had millions in the bank and would have continued having millions coming in had he not quit on Houston. I'm certain Herman even used the extension to tell recruits that he would be there for a long time.

Meanwhile, McCaffrey hasn't earned a dime from Stanford -- even though Stanford has earned many dimes from him. So McCaffrey is "quitting" to ensure his health and to do exactly what he went to Stanford to do: get a lucrative job in his chosen profession.

It's pretty easy to find ways to justify either side of this. I'm confident that I am right (as are you), and I also am confident that history will show this to be routine as more and more athletes do this.

As I said, it wasn't all that long ago that basketball players who left school for the NBA before their 4 years were up were considered "quitters" -- or worse.

[keefe]

The military is a team-based environment and AFSOC TACPs are one of the most intricately integrated units anywhere. Everyone is expected to do their duty and then some.

This kid is on a team. The bowl game is the culmination of the full season's effort. He should honor his commitment to his teammates and play in this final game.

This isn't the same as leaving Pepsi to join GE. It is about fulfilling everything these guys worked for since Spring Practice.

While I can grasp why he is making this choice there is no honor in it.

[Tugg Speedman]

It is the same as leaving Pepsi for GE.  Its a job in the entertainment business and he's not being paid enough to put at risk a better job in the NFL.