MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Pakuni on November 25, 2015, 12:34:05 PM
-
When has this sort of thing ever ended well for a program?
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/utah-state-denies-transfer-permission-to-speak-with-any-other-schools-100936787.html
-
Is the Legend no longer at Utah St?
-
When has this sort of thing ever ended well for a program?
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/utah-state-denies-transfer-permission-to-speak-with-any-other-schools-100936787.html
Never works out for the institution, they might as well shoot themselves in the back of the head.
The timing is a bit suspicious but if you claim tampering you need some proof and then ban those schools you suspect, not just shut out everyone. Utah St. does look petty (of course that could just be because there is only the players story in the press)
-
Tampering.....that's why. Utah State and other programs don't want to reward other programs with tampering of players. Very simple. Whether that happened in this case, is unknown, but that is a reason why programs are hesitant to release players without knowing more information.
He will eventually get his release, but it will not be to the school(s) that were tampering.
Respect the process...
-
Tampering.....that's why. Utah State and other programs don't want to reward other programs with tampering of players. Very simple. Whether that happened in this case, is unknown, but that is a reason why programs are hesitant to release players without knowing more information.
He will eventually get his release, but it will not be to the school(s) that were tampering.
Respect the process...
Respect the process??
It's Utah St. that's not respecting the process. If they have evidence of tampering, bar that school or schools and turn them into the NCAA. That's the process.
The process is not to arbitrarily punish the kid because you're unhappy about his timing. The process is not to bar the kid from speaking to any schools because you think maybe, sorta, there might have been some tampering.
How exactly is Utah State going about getting more information? They bring in some former FBI agents? Assemble a fact-finding panel?
This is a stupid power play by a stupid coach, and it's going to blow up in his face just as it has for every other stupid coach who's tried something like this (see: Ryan, Bo).
-
If David Collette wants to come to Marquette I am sure we could find some academic money for him.
-
Respect the process??
It's Utah St. that's not respecting the process. If they have evidence of tampering, bar that school or schools and turn them into the NCAA. That's the process.
The process is not to arbitrarily punish the kid because you're unhappy about his timing. The process is not to bar the kid from speaking to any schools because you think maybe, sorta, there might have been some tampering.
How exactly is Utah State going about getting more information? They bring in some former FBI agents? Assemble a fact-finding panel?
This is a stupid power play by a stupid coach, and it's going to blow up in his face just as it has for every other stupid coach who's tried something like this (see: Ryan, Bo).
They are absolutely respecting the process. It is within the school's rights to do exactly what they are doing, which is part of the process. Explain to me how they are not following process, because you know damn well they are....to the exact letter.
-
They are absolutely respecting the process. It is within the school's rights to do exactly what they are doing, which is part of the process. Explain to me how they are not following process, because you know damn well they are....to the exact letter.
But you would agree, at least I hope so, just because a school has a right to do something, means they should, or it's the right thing to do. I ask, what is your opinion on the matter?
-
Yes, they are technically following the process. But if they have a suspicion of tampering, they could still achieve their goal simply by preventing the kid from transferring to the school or schools they think tampered with him. Preventing him from speaking with anyone makes Utah State look spiteful, and gives opposing coaches plenty of negative recruiting ammo.
Enforcing their rights instead of playing it smart....
-
But you would agree, at least I hope so, just because a school has a right to do something, means they should, or it's the right thing to do. I ask, what is your opinion on the matter?
It depends. If they suspect tampering and need time to investigate, they should take their time to do so.
If a player pulls this crap on the eve of the season, too bad....the school has every right and SHOULD exercise their rights to find out why.
This is a two way street.
-
Yes, they are technically following the process. But if they have a suspicion of tampering, they could still achieve their goal simply by preventing the kid from transferring to the school or schools they think tampered with him. Preventing him from speaking with anyone makes Utah State look spiteful, and gives opposing coaches plenty of negative recruiting ammo.
Enforcing their rights instead of playing it smart....
Which is likely what they are doing. Sorry this doesn't happen on everyone's expedited timeline, but there are ramifications of letting the school know as late as he did. Welcome to big boy land.
-
Better subject to use here...
"Utah State Follows the Rules; the Masses are Outraged"
-
Legendary
-
Which is likely what they are doing. Sorry this doesn't happen on everyone's expedited timeline, but there are ramifications of letting the school know as late as he did. Welcome to big boy land.
No it is not what they're doing.
If you read what I said - I said they should only prohibit contact by THE SCHOOL OR SCHOOLS THEY THINK TAMPERED. They're preventing contact with EVERYBODY.
Do you seriously not see the difference? Unless of course they think every school in the country tampered with him. ::)
-
Welcome to big boy land.
Utah State is hundreds of miles from "big boy land".
-
They are absolutely respecting the process. It is within the school's rights to do exactly what they are doing, which is part of the process. Explain to me how they are not following process, because you know damn well they are....to the exact letter.
Even you don't believe this.
-
Apparently more of the story came out last night. Someone claiming to be representing Collette contacted Dave Rice at UNLV. Rice contacted the Utah State coach to let him know, and when Collette announced he wanted to leave, Utah State said "no."
It is in this twitter feed.
https://twitter.com/1280Spence
-
Sounds a little squirmy.
But I do have a question. The article indicates that the university 'cancelling athletic aid for the rest of the semester'. Does that mean they've cancelled his scholly? If so, wouldn't that be some kind of violation? If they can prevent him from talking to other schools should they be forced to honor all aspects of his scholarship?
-
Legendary
Retired
-
No it is not what they're doing.
If you read what I said - I said they should only prohibit contact by THE SCHOOL OR SCHOOLS THEY THINK TAMPERED. They're preventing contact with EVERYBODY.
Do you seriously not see the difference? Unless of course they think every school in the country tampered with him. ::)
Again, welcome to big boy land. They are following the rules, the rules that the kid also knows about, and he's upset because....well...things aren't going his way despite the rules being followed. Big Boy Land with big boy pants.
Sure, Utah State could say we don't think Stetson college in Florida tampered with you, so you are free to transfer there. Meanwhile, we will continue to do our due diligence.
We all know he is going to get his release, and if he doesn't like the big boy rules, he is free to transfer today and pay his own way for a year. Nothing stopping him from doing this.
-
Apparently more of the story came out last night. Someone claiming to be representing Collette contacted Dave Rice at UNLV. Rice contacted the Utah State coach to let him know, and when Collette announced he wanted to leave, Utah State said "no."
It is in this twitter feed.
https://twitter.com/1280Spence
So, to make a long story short, no evidence of tampering. They're just pissed about the kid's timing, which the tweets you link confirm.
-
So, to make a long story short, no evidence of tampering. They're just pissed about the kid's timing, which the tweets you link confirm.
As they should be....welcome to big boy land. Utah State gave him the offer, the training, the coaching, the education, then he leaves them high and dry a few days before the season. This will be a good lesson for him.....UNLV should not be on his list to transfer.
Also, one comment doesn't mean there was no tampering going on. Do you know if it happened or not? Yet you have come to the conclusion of NO EVIDENCE of tampering based on a twiiter tweet. OUTSTANDING Inspector.
-
Since we're using Twitter now as awesome sauce......maybe we should go one step further into the murky abyss and go to the Utah State message boards? Rock solid stuff there. 8-)
For giggles, they claim through his AAU coach that other schools have reached out get him to transfer..to Utah, UNLV, Boise State and others....that would be tampering through back channels. Now, is any of this true? Who knows, but this is why programs do what they do.
Welcome to Big Boy land.
-
As they should be....welcome to big boy land. Utah State gave him the offer, the training, the coaching, the education, then he leaves them high and dry a few days before the season. This will be a good lesson for him.....UNLV should not be on his list to transfer.
Also, one comment doesn't mean there was no tampering going on. Do you know if it happened or not? Yet you have come to the conclusion of NO EVIDENCE of tampering based on a twiiter tweet. OUTSTANDING Inspector.
Don't be so obtuse.
First of all, it's not incumbent on anyone to prove there was no tampering. That's not how it works. If Utah State claims - which they're not, but you are on their behalf - that there was tampering, it's on them to provide evidence. Demanding that anyone prove there was tampering literally is impossible, and you know it.
Second, if Utah State believed there was tampering or had evidence of tampering, Duryea ... er, I mean this reporter's source, who absolutely, positively isn't Duryea or one of his underlings ... would have leaked it like he leaked all this other stuff. He didn't leak it, because it doesn't exist.
Third - and I know this one is the hardest for you to understand - student athletes are not indentured servants. They provide the schools with more than the schools provide them. Utah State didn't give the kid a whole year of "training, coaching, education" as a philanthropic gesture. They did it because they believed the kid could help generate revenue for the athletic department.
-
For giggles, they claim through his AAU coach that other schools have reached out get him to transfer..to Utah, UNLV, Boise State and others....that would be tampering through back channels. Now, is any of this true? Who knows, but this is why programs do what they do.
Given Mountain West intra-conference transfer rules, this makes about zero sense. MWC schools would seem the least likely option for the kid.
-
Since we're using Twitter now as awesome sauce......maybe we should go one step further into the murky abyss and go to the Utah State message boards? Rock solid stuff there. 8-)
I am not "using Twitter as a source." I am using a guy who hosts a sports radio show in Salt Lake as a source. He simply told the story via twitter.
-
Sounds a little squirmy.
But I do have a question. The article indicates that the university 'cancelling athletic aid for the rest of the semester'. Does that mean they've cancelled his scholly? If so, wouldn't that be some kind of violation? If they can prevent him from talking to other schools should they be forced to honor all aspects of his scholarship?
Athletic aid language is generally "we will give you athletic aid in exchange for you participating as a athlete on our bball team."
If the player decides he's not going to honor the scholarship provisions, then I think they're OK to do the same.
-
Athletic aid language is generally "we will give you athletic aid in exchange for you participating as a athlete on our bball team."
If the player decides he's not going to honor the scholarship provisions, then I think they're OK to do the same.
Okay, that part makes perfect sense. So the player violates his end of the contract by refusing to play and the university responds by cutting off his aid. Obviously tuition, books and housing for the semester have already been paid. Fair enough. Seems legitimate so far. So now the student says he's calling Marquette and Creighton, for example and he understands that he'll have to sit out a year, etc. But Wojo can't talk to him or offer? I guess what I don't understand is how the original university can impose further sanctions once they cut off his aid because in legal terms there's no further consideration. Now if they continued to provide benefits (consideration), it seems to me that they can continue to impose whatever requirements are customary.
And let's leave out a tampering situation because that would have been a clear violation while the student was under scholarship. I talking about an individual's right to negotiate a new deal with a university not alleged to have tampered. It seems to me that this contract is functioning like a 'non-compete' but that there's no consideration for that contract going forward once this semester ends.
Where the h*ll are the scoop lawyers here. I only play one on TV.
-
Back to original question, has it ever ended BADLY for a program? Wisconsin really took a hit!! ::)
These kids know the rules so many want to make them out like victims. Give me a break. This particular kid could have transferred at the end of the season, or during the Summer, or even during the first month.....but he waits until 2 days before the season starts and then has the gall to say "poor me, please let me do anything I want". Tough titties. You'll get to wait....nice life lesson for you Mr. Collette. When we bail on a team, an organization, a business, etc, at the 11th hour and you are under an agreement, the rules of that agreement are going to be enforced. He would have gotten a lot further along if he had done this months ago, with some class toward his teammates and the university that offered him to begin with.
Boo hoo.
-
Back to original question, has it ever ended BADLY for a program? Wisconsin really took a hit!! ::)
They did. They took a bad PR hit and caved in allowing him to go to Iowa.
-
Retired
I thought legends live on? In this case, Stew recruited this kid and had his long time assistant replace him in Year 1 here. Shouldn't a kid have the right to play for the coach we wants to? Obviously th chemistry isn't right with the new coach and the JUCO-laden roster Stew left. 7 on the Squirm-O-Meter for not releasing him.
-
“Utah State University has followed all applicable NCAA procedures and applied consistent internal practices in declining the request for release. David Collette chose to leave Utah State two days prior to its season-opening contest, which hamstrung the team in terms of recruiting a new player to that position or even practicing with other players for that position. The timing of David’s decision to leave the team is the reason Utah State is handling his release this way.”
Collette has since appealed Utah State’s decision. If the appeal is denied, Collette will not be granted any athletic aid and will have to pay his own tuition out of pocket.
Good for them! The appeal is in December, we'll see where it goes.
-
Okay, that part makes perfect sense. So the player violates his end of the contract by refusing to play and the university responds by cutting off his aid. Obviously tuition, books and housing for the semester have already been paid. Fair enough. Seems legitimate so far. So now the student says he's calling Marquette and Creighton, for example and he understands that he'll have to sit out a year, etc. But Wojo can't talk to him or offer? I guess what I don't understand is how the original university can impose further sanctions once they cut off his aid because in legal terms there's no further consideration. Now if they continued to provide benefits (consideration), it seems to me that they can continue to impose whatever requirements are customary.
Let's say I hire you. You'll work for me in exchange for a salary, and we also agree to a non-compete. You stop showing up to work, so I stop paying you.
That doesn't mean you can also violate the non-compete.
-
They did. They took a bad PR hit and caved in allowing him to go to Iowa.
Did it hurt their program? No.
-
I thought legends live on? In this case, Stew recruited this kid and had his long time assistant replace him in Year 1 here. Shouldn't a kid have the right to play for the coach we wants to? Obviously th chemistry isn't right with the new coach and the JUCO-laden roster Stew left. 7 on the Squirm-O-Meter for not releasing him.
Sure....and the kid should have transferred at the end of the season, or during the summer, or at the beginning of the semester....instead he quit 2 days before the season started.
-
Let's say I hire you. You'll work for me in exchange for a salary, and we also agree to a non-compete. You stop showing up to work, so I stop paying you.
That doesn't mean you can also violate the non-compete.
Totally agree. But that's not really answering my question. Do signed NLIs dictate that the player is bound to the university for 4 years, absent a release? Further, that his refusal to play is a breech responded to by rescinding his benefits but that he remains bound nevertheless? Has this ever happened before?
Understand that what I'm interested in here is the contract issue, not the merit of the university decision.
-
Totally agree. But that's not really answering my question. Do signed NLIs dictate that the player is bound to the university for 4 years, absent a release? Further, that his refusal to play is a breech responded to by rescinding his benefits but that he remains bound nevertheless? Has this ever happened before?
Understand that what I'm interested in here is the contract issue, not the merit of the university decision.
The NLI does not....the NLI has nothing to do with it in my opinion. He signed a grant in aid (whatever term they use these days), however. He then quit the team. When he quits the team, the grant goes away but the transfer rules stay in tact.
Yes, this has happened before.
-
Totally agree. But that's not really answering my question. Do signed NLIs dictate that the player is bound to the university for 4 years, absent a release? Further, that his refusal to play is a breech responded to by rescinding his benefits but that he remains bound nevertheless? Has this ever happened before?
Understand that what I'm interested in here is the contract issue, not the merit of the university decision.
The NLI isn't relevant here. NLI are optional and can be entered into prior to initial enrollment. They are relevant for the first year only (they do not bind for 4 years). Complete non-issue in this matter as this was a returning player.
Each year, a school renews financial aid (if they so choose). Typically you'd see language such as "aid can be immediately canceled if A, B or C occur" and would include voluntary withdrawal from the sport. The school signs, as does the student-athlete each year.
So, the canceling of aid is pretty straightforward and would be well documented in the renewal agreement.
The TRANSFER rules are dictated by the NCAA, not the specific financial aid agreement. Utah State is playing by the NCAA's rules. The transfer rules are what they are and don't provide for a "if you quit the team and your aid is canceled, then you can go talk to whoever you'd like" clause.
-
The NLI isn't relevant here. NLI are optional and can be entered into prior to initial enrollment. They are relevant for the first year only (they do not bind for 4 years). Complete non-issue in this matter as this was a returning player.
Each year, a school renews financial aid (if they so choose). Typically you'd see language such as "aid can be immediately canceled if A, B or C occur" and would include voluntary withdrawal from the sport. The school signs, as does the student-athlete each year.
So, the canceling of aid is pretty straightforward and would be well documented in the renewal agreement.
The TRANSFER rules are dictated by the NCAA, not the specific financial aid agreement. Utah State is playing by the NCAA's rules. The transfer rules are what they are and don't provide for a "if you quit the team and your aid is canceled, then you can go talk to whoever you'd like" clause.
Perfect. Thanks.
-
Did it hurt their program? No.
Neither you nor I really know this. Of course PR losses are ones that can be weathered, but how might the Utoff incident be playing out on the recruiting circles? You have no clue.
-
Sure....and the kid should have transferred at the end of the season, or during the summer, or at the beginning of the semester....instead he quit 2 days before the season started.
So the kid had a couple of weeks of practice with the new coach who by all accounts was out of control for a religious kid and it it is on the kid? Lol your Buddy Buzz even let McKay go out and take transfer calls while stil enrolled. Wrong. Utah State was squirmy.
-
Neither you nor I really know this. Of course PR losses are ones that can be weathered, but how might the Utoff incident be playing out on the recruiting circles? You have no clue.
Fair enough, but then equally when we hear that it serves schools no good to stick to their rights that were agreed to with the grand in aid, that is equally bogus. No one knows if it does harm or not.
Especially in a world where 4 year scholarship grand-in aid are now provided.
-
So the kid had a couple of weeks of practice with the new coach who by all accounts was out of control for a religious kid and it it is n the kid? Lol your Buddy Buzz even let McKay go out and take transfer calls while stil enrolled. Wrong. Utah State was squirmy.
The coach was the assistant coach the year prior and the primary recruiter of the kid. He has been at Utah State for 14 years.
"Who by all accounts was out of control"....please, provide all of these conclusive accounts.
Utah State is playing this exactly by the NCAA book, and you guys are outraged by it....the irony of bringing Buzz into this who didn't exactly go by the NCAA book on things.
-
The coach was the assistant coach the year prior and the primary recruiter of the kid. He has been at Utah State for 14 years.
"Who by all accounts was out of control"....please, provide all of these conclusive accounts.
Utah State is playing this exactly by the NCAA book, and you guys are outraged by it....the irony of bringing Buzz into this who didn't exactly go by the NCAA book on things.
Well, I guess the accounts was the kid which is all that really matters to normal people.
Collette vehemently denies that any other program influenced his decision by expressing interest directly to him or through a third party. He instead attributes his abrupt exit to a deteriorating relationship between him and Duryea, a longtime Utah State assistant who ascended to head coach when Stew Morrill retired last spring.
One of Collette's issues with Duryea stems from his alleged use of the phrase "you might as well shoot yourself in the back of the head" when speaking with the team. Though Utah State said Duryea apologized to Collette when told the phrase was insensitive, Collette recalls differently. He said the coach laughed it off and told him it was just a figure of speech.
Another of Collette's issues stemmed from a fight in practice in which one player allegedly sucker punched another in the back of the head. Utah State said in its statement to Yahoo Sports that "punishment for the incident was handed out and seen through," but Collette was uncomfortable with how Duryea downplayed the incident and demanded players stay silent about it.
"He told us not to tell anyone about it — not even family members — because he didn't want the media to find out," Collette said. "Why tell your players to shove it under the rug? If you're a coach telling your players to shove something under the rug, you're obviously not doing something right."
Incidents like those wore on Collette until he could no longer envision playing another year for Duryea. Collette felt guilty about letting down his teammates by quitting so close to the start of the season, but he said they were "understanding and supportive" when he addressed them.
It didn't take long for Collette to realize Utah State coaches and administrators would not be quite so gracious. He received an email the day after he said he was leaving informing him the school was canceling his athletic aid for the remainder of the semester.
And your source on Buzz which we have been waiting for? And, in an exact same situation, your elbow rubbing buddy, Larry Williams, released McKay, God bless him. I vote with Larry on this one.
-
Well, I guess the accounts was the kid which is all that really matters to normal people.
So ALL accounts mean only his point of view, not the head coach, not the coaching staff, not his teammates....ALL = one kid? Interesting. And that's also all that really matters to normal people.
I'd love to know what "out of control" means, since that wasn't even attempted to be defined.
Got it. All = one. Normal people = whatever your POV on the matter is. "Out of control" = TBD
And your source on Buzz which we have been waiting for? And, in an exact same situation, your elbow rubbing buddy, Larry Williams, released McKay, God bless him. I vote with Larry on this one.
Schools can do whatever they wish, including sticking to their guns. I'm glad Utah State is doing that. MU went in a different direction for McKay, for others MU did NOT go in that direction until they had a chance to talk to certain players. Tyshawn Taylor is one such example, but there are others.
Each situation is different. USU is doing the right thing on this one and going through the appeals process for the kid, while also finding out if schools were tampering with him. Sorry it doesn't fit his timeline, welcome to the big city kid.